PS6 Might Not Support PS5 Pro Games Due to Different AI Upscaling Architecture?!
Ashamam
Member
Think of it this way. There is a common repo that will advance through Amethyst and AMD will fork out FSR and Sony will fork out PSSR. I suspect it will feel a lot like PSSR is forking off FSR because FSR will update more often and we never see the common code in any form. The reality will be both will contribute back to the common code base though.
The original incarnation of the code would have had a disproportionate contribution by Sony though as it looks like they were working on software earlier whilst AMD was on the hardware for the Pro. Then they realised that combining efforts would help everyone as AMD pivoted away from FSR3 to a ML solution in their roadmap.
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viveks86
Member
I think
K
KeplerL2
was speaking from a hardware standpoint. What happens on the software layer is up to Sony. If they want PS6 to play Pro versions of the game, they will come up with a work around to brute force the CNN to run on next gen hardware by translating PSSR1.0 instructions with a wrapper. And this will likely only be an issue with PSSR 1.0 games that stay on it forever. A lot of them would likely be updated to 2.0 next year anyway, which the PS6 will absolutely support.
If none of that happens and Sony lets the PS6 run BC games worse than the Pro, it would absolutely suck. But it doesn't seem like a very difficult problem to solve.
If none of that happens and Sony lets the PS6 run BC games worse than the Pro, it would absolutely suck. But it doesn't seem like a very difficult problem to solve.
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Physiognomonics
Member
When did I talk about FSR5? Who is talking about it?
If you have zero knowledge about PSSR and likely FSR4, then please educate yourself (the knowledge is out there) then come back to the discussion.
Imagine if Sony makes FSR4 INT8 model for Pro users next year, and AMD decide to stop training INT8 models because their newer cards are using FP8.
It depends on how PSSR 1.0 is implemented, if it's anything like DLSS and FSR4 they can just swap DLLs with a PS6 compatible one, but if it's shipped as shader binary they would have to run PS5 base version or get developers to update the game.
TBiddy
Member
I love how you're always throwing the shill card. I'm almost impressed by your dedication to this. Surely, you must be testing the mods to see how far you can take it, before they step in.
ReasonBeing
Member
A speculative inquiry has a lot of people's feelings hurt I see.
I imagine if this turned out to be a reality for games that support PSSR, the dev could go in and update the software for proper compatibility with the PS6. Sony is smarter than that.
I imagine if this turned out to be a reality for games that support PSSR, the dev could go in and update the software for proper compatibility with the PS6. Sony is smarter than that.
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The fuck is PSSR1. If it's the actual PSSR from what I have understood it will be replaced next year to "PSSR2" and the intention of sony was already to update it even in the existent games...
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ZehDon
Member
Although Sony have said that PSSR is updateable, it requires developers to patch their games. This implementation approach could indeed create a problem for future PlayStation consoles if it doesn't natively support PSSR and they're not able to craft useable intercepts to re-route the necessary API calls. With that said, I'd give even odds for this actually being a problem. The PS5 was fully backwards compatible with the PS4, showing forward thinking, but Sony did drop PSVR1 support entirely. Guess we'll see.
Imo we have to see what Sony meant for PSSR2 update on ps5 pro I guess.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Let the FUD begin. They're way early this time around.
Insane Metal
Member
I think it's too early to worry about this.
viveks86
Member
I doubt it's an easily swappable DLL, but I sure hope it isn't a shader binary.... can't think of a way to solve that! That would need full on emulation to get around, which I doubt Sony would do.
memoryman3
Member
I'm sure Sony will find a way with their own custom RDNA implementation. Remember that the PS5 Pro still supports checkerboard rendering.
yurinka
Member
Make sure PS6 will be 100% compatible with PS4, PS4 Pro, PS5, PS5 Pro.
Regarding PSSR, make sure it will have and advanced version, call it PSSR 2.0 or whatever other name, that will make games running PSSR 1.0 in PS5 Pro look better.
MisterXDTV
Member
This thread needs to be locked
PS5 Pro is getting PSSR 2.0 upscaler at a system level less than 6 months from now, based on a algorythm co-developed with AMD ITSELF
And you think that the future PS6 won't support that?
This thread is completely worthless
PS5 Pro is getting PSSR 2.0 upscaler at a system level less than 6 months from now, based on a algorythm co-developed with AMD ITSELF
And you think that the future PS6 won't support that?
This thread is completely worthless
Tobimacoss
Member
I haven't watched Cerny's video yet regarding the new goodies in RDNA5.
Thanks, these are really good explanations. So it's basically like Chromium, a shared repository that everyone can contribute to, and everyone can fork it, Google forks it to Chrome, MS forks it to Edge etc. So they are forks based on universal or TV specific formats.
Anyways, it seems the battle lines are drawn, hopefully no more upscalers after this, and they can simply keep iterating.
We will have PS6 Orion and Canis hardware with FSR 4 and PSSR 2.
Intel hardware with XESS and FSR 4 support.
Nvidia hardware with DLSS and FSR4 support.
Intel/Nvidia APUs with XESS, DLSS, FSR
Xbox hardware with FSR 4. Then AutoSR for all Windows devices, which is system wide without needing Dev input.
And Qualcomm with also AutoSR.
FSR is basically universal, on every OS and hardware type. AutoSR is every Windows device with an NPU, so semi-universal.
Sony has been using host-OS equivalent of DLLs since(and including) the PS2 on their consoles for system libraries.
That doesn't mean they didn't ship them on discs (they absolutely did on PS2, and to some extent on PSP/PS3) but it's still dynamically loaded libraries you can intercept and replace if you really wanted to.
I'd also point to how PSVR worked here where games absolutely had zero access to the hardware (and especially the camera) no matter how much forumites insisted on it, it was all done through APIs that could be redirected to anything, and that included reprojection async compute.
Now let's be clear - Sony could still decide they don't want to run games tested with PSSR against any different upscaler because 'reasons' - but it's not a technical limitation to redirect it.
Reminds me of the whole conversation where internet collectively insisted PS4 Pro can't resolution scale games on the backend because PS3 had borked scaler hardware and obviously that means every Sony console forever does so after - or something.
And the fact that down-scaling was available in PS4 Amateur for all games since launch didn't work as an argument because somehow:
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nial
Gold Member
They did not? You can use PSVR on PS5.
rnlval
Member
Xbox Series X is RDNA 2, like their PC APU RDNA 2 DX12U feature set, and they are missing the discrete RDNA 2's infinity (L3) cache.
viveks86
Member
Is PSSR a system library though? The impression I got was it gets compiled from the SDK into the game code... but regardless, this still seems viable if it's an API call as I'm not expecting it to be a shader binary:
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Tobimacoss
Member
Sry, maybe my post wasn't clear. I was making a reference to PS5 Pro being RDNA2 but having certain features from RDNA3. So I simply refer to it as RDNA 2.9.....
My point was, had Xbox done a similar console, that would've been waste too. Personally, I think hardware should be updated every three years, but not be constricted to specific gens. Seems, MS will be going that route with Magnus portfolio.
RDNA2 to RDNA 2.9 isn't a big leap, like how RDNA 2 to RDNA 5 will be.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
PSSR sucks anyway, just kick it to the curb and ship better hardware again.
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I no longer have access to DevNet so I can't verify if anything changed with PS5 handling of things - but eg. PSVR was (and that runs multiple async computes, arguably more complex than PSSR). Again, runtime loaded modules have been the standard way to handle most* Sony provided libraries since PS2 era.
*Exceptions exist, but this was mostly PS2 time-frame where we had to deal with asymmetric CPUs and a whole bunch of other shenanigans as well as much thinner OS kernel.
MacReady13
Member
I didn't realise there were games you could only play on the Pro over the standard PS5... Am I missing something here? Cause if so, what exactly is a PS5 Pro game?
nial
Gold Member
It refers to PS5 games running on PS5 Pro settings, for those that support it.
MacReady13
Member
Exactly, meaning that on the PS6 if that doesn't support PSSR it will just support whatever upscaler that system uses. This affects zero games going forward as ALL games are PS5 games.
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
Why should it be Sony's fault that Xbox price increase? Why can't Microsoft take loss at hardware after selling 30 million consoles?
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
I call out a guy who admitted to be a Microsoft employee on reddit. And thats where you take the issue?
EverydayBeast
ChatGPT 0.001
Sony doesn't honor backwards compatibility, not seriously since the OG 4USB 80GB PS3.
ZehDon
Member
Sorry, you're correct - poor wording on my part. PSVR1 hardware works with PS5 (with an adapter) but the PSVR1 software doesn't work with the PSVR2 at a platform level. Developers need to patch their titles manually or release new PS5 versions.
They still sell base model so if they want to do even a PS5 Pro 2 we don't have to buy it.
clappedcheeks
Member
It'll be RDNA 5 because that's the tech available at the time of release for Magnus. The pro is based on RDNA 2 with features from later architectures because that's what is available now. It's also an enthusiast product for those willing to spend more for a better product. I'm sure Magnus is going to pack a punch when it arrives but it'll come at a high cost. For most people the ps6 will come in at a much more favourable cost with very little to distinguish between them as it'll have the latest bells and whistles afforded by whatever RDNA 5 brings to the table.
Tobimacoss
Member
/r/xCloud is a community run subreddit, with zero control from MS.
Their employees do hang out there but they are clearly flaired.
I don't know why my assertion that PS5 Pro is an unnecessary product seems so offensive to some people. It was just my viewpoint from the outside looking in. I get it, people will spend money on what they want, more power to Sony.
My point was, they already did a PS4 Pro, and they wanted to keep to that cadence, PS5 Pro then PS6 Pro in the future.
Let me give you some facts:
PS4 Pro GPU was 2.1 times more powerful than PS4, that's 110% better than PS4.
Xbox One X was 4 times more powerful than One S in GPU compute, that's 300% better.
PS5 Pro GPU was only 45% better than PS5 in raster, and 10% faster CPU than PS5. That's 25% better than Series X in GPU, and only 2-3% faster in CPU.
The leap for PS5 Pro was in Ray Tracing and Machine learning. But it still wasn't big enough leap in the grand scheme of things.
rnlval
Member
PS5 Pro's RDNA ? GPU seems to be missing RDNA 3 CU's and RDNA 4 CU's "dual issue" feature.
Ashamam
Member
Don't believe everything you read. Its much like people commenting on games they haven't played. The Pro is a significant IQ improvement over the base model, even with the issues PSSR has in its current incarnation. It can be variable of course as it comes down to the developer, but there is no question in my mind that machine fills a need that became apparent mid gen. The flaws are often overstated when I compare lived experience to say a DF review.
Not saying they are wrong to point them out, just when you play the game at intended distance etc the improved clarity and resolution more than makes up for some shimmer or whatever.
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rnlval
Member
AMD's current PC APUs only have RDNA 3.5, which has DPa4 INT8 and WMMA INT8.
FSR 4.02 DPa4 INT8 can run on PC's RDNA 2.
If AMD's future INT8 FSR4 targets RDNA 3.0/3.5 WMMA INT8, it wouldn't run on RDNA 2.
rnlval
Member
FSR4 FP8 runs on RDNA 4.0 (GFX1200, GFX1201), hence there's less need for the lesser INT8 FSR4 variants (DPa4 INT8, WMMA INT8, INT8 with PSSR 2.0). FSR4 FP8 and FSR4 INT8 have an FSR 3.1 entry point.
RDNA 5 should have RDNA 4's WMMA FP8.
As long as the upscaling function has a well-designed API with standard inputs, the API's underlying code and hardware tech can change. This thread is pointless.
pacman4000
Member
*not sure if serious*
Tobimacoss
Member
Yea, I know. Why I call it RDNA 2.9, its probably more like 2.5
Yea, you are most likely correct. Digital Foundry nitpick too much on certain details. The end user likely enjoys the experience enough to warrant the purchase. You do make a good case for Pro, I guess I was a bit too harsh on it, just based on certain numbers.
Doesn't matter, we got Orion and Canis to look forward to. What I want to see the most from Sony is Orion servers replace the PS5 servers, then expand PS6 streaming with Buy and Stream to native Windows and Android apps, basically Sony storefronts on PC and Android. That would be more than good enough for me.
Yes, OK, got it, those are words, letters, and numbers, and they probably make sense.
Btw, this thread originated from Kepler's statement.
Insanemaelstrom
Member
He seems to be an alt of that little chicken guy. Became active when he was banned as well.