I’m old and slow now… I admit I like slower and/or easier games nowadays (I do love Halo Infinite online, but it is NOWHERE as complex as top-level Quake play). What I don’t understand is why most youngsters nowadays don’t. Is it because they are so used to gamepads, which can’t handle high level Quake play? Or are they just a bunch of pussies? I’m proud to say my kids like Quake… but are the rest just a bunch of pussies (older gen thinks younger gen is a bunch of lazy pussies, story as old as time, LOL)?
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Quake 3 and Unreal Tournament question
- Thread starter AeonGaidenRaiden
- Start date
- Opinion
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
I dont think any of those old shooters (even latest Doom games) intertwine all the custmization and social aspects into their games. It's like you pick a side (probably some kind of red vs blue), grab weapons off the ground and zoom around the map beating people on pure reflexes.
All other kinds of shooters are slower paced so it helps more people play, and they all have customization to be your own player, where the competition and marketing is all about banding together with friends and beating other people (thats why so many do that "family portrait" image like Xdefiant and Bleeding Edge. It's like "Hey gamers! Everyone jump in being your own player and have fun"
Old school arena shooters are more like "This isn't fun. It's serious ranked matches against gamers in Deathmatch. Every man for himself"
In modern day, people like the social aspects of gaming.
Arena shooters have always been most popular on PC (thats where they originated and m/kb is king for playing these games). The games have died even on PC. So it shows even the PC crowd doesn't care about them anymore.
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Regarding UT4… $$$$$$$$$$$$. And I don’t blame them a damn bit, why make peanuts when you can make billions? Is there no UT on EGS at all, really? Yea, I’m with you on that, wtf? What about Jazz Jackrabbit, is that there? Sweeney, as talented as he is, is no Carmack when it comes to integrity, that is for sure! Just look at how crappy the EGS store is compared to Steam, if you don’t believe me. If Carmack got in the PC digital store business, I promise you Carmack would DIE before he’d release a PC launcher/digital store program as crappy as EGS.
Yea, that’s my point. The younger generations are a bunch of pussies that care more about rabbit ears and Marvel outfits than actual gameplay. LOL, obviously I am using SEVERE hyperbole, clearly I’m joking (I shouldn’t have to say that, but you know someone would take me seriously). One thing though… Quake was about more than reflexes. Map control, timing, intimidation, misdirection, prediction, weapon/armor denial is what it was all about. That is 100 times more important in Quake/UT style arena shooters. That is how I was able to stomp my son (despite his FAR better reflexes) in Q3A after I started remembering my map routes. Halo Infinite, for example, depends more on reflexes than Quake did, which is why he usually edges me out for the win in that game. This is not a knock on Halo, I love Halo. I’m just using it as an example.
I think the emphasis on the social aspect comes from mainly the gaming market has became a magnitude (at least) larger, combined with modern games being so expensive to make… if you don’t appeal to the ”mouthbreathers”, you will probably lose millions. That is why the vast majority of gameplay innovation is in the indie market.
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Note to self: check out this “Splitgate”.
I don’t know about the honest thing, but you should check out Dusk. Freakin‘ ROCKS!Mate, I haven’t heard of any of those games you just mentioned.
“be honest with yourself”
The fuck
DuskWorld? You’re shitting me! Well, I know what I’ll be checking out soon. Thanks!
It’s not cheating, anyone could do it. Just pull down the console and type in the commands. It is not like a console game, the commands were not hidden in any way, shape, or form. It just came down to do you value visibility, or pretty graphics (or somewhere in between)? Customization is one of the fundamental differences between PC exclusive games and console exclusive games (ESPECIALLY in the 90’s). And besides, in Quake and UT, if you got skills and the other player doesn’t, you are going to dominate, no matter what stripped down settings the lesser player runs. Stuff like that was usually used by the cream of the crop, against other players that were the cream of the crop, where every advantage mattered.
Opinions are like assholes…
Correct, modern shooters are better suited for pussy-ass mouthbreathing console kiddies.
Mr Branding
Member
Should have bought UT before being delisted on Steam a couple of months ago. Playing UT on Deck in bed could have been a huge throwback for me as I always felt it had an edge over Q3, even tho q2dm1 was my jam in my teens!
I can understand you feel that way given how closed/rigid recent fps are but this has been standard toutnament setting in Q3 for more than 20 years
Diabotical and co failed because they are lesser games than the ones they try to emulate.
And ye, arena shooters are a thing of the past, unfit for consoles and mecanically too demanding for most. People into it are still playing QW/Q3/QL.
If you played both games seriously you wouldn't have cared about atmosphere or color palette. Quake was a competitive game with insane depth, just google defrag if you want to get a grasp at the movement options.
Meanwhile UT was a pretty but shallow fps fit for some good fun among friends and was the first step towards modern shooters in that regard.
Yea. He probably just played bots. If you’ve never played real people, then you’ve never actually played Quake 3 (or UT).
AlteredForms
Banned
You're missing the entire point, I'm taking the entire package into consideration. Quake III was barebones on content, some of the maps looked and were designed like ass. The depth came from the insane movement speed and weapon combinations, but to say UT was shallow is a little stupid. It's not as fast moving as Q3, but the weapons with 2x firing modes, double-dodging, varied and multilayered map designs and additional game modes were much more stellar.
That's one hell of an assumption. Because I didn't focus entirely on the gameplay, "I've never played with people". I've played and seen all those crazy combos you're pointing to on Youtube and with Quake Live. I'm even one of those people who didn't bitch and moan with Quake: Champions.
AeonGaidenRaiden
Member
AlteredForms
Yeah I think thats more your personal opinion but where I played, Q3 was king and every internet cafe if it had 20-30 computers, 2/3 were always populated by Quake players. Especially at the time I think Q3 looked much better because of the lighting and geometry wheres UT felt very rectangular/simple shaped maps. I liked UT as well but Q3 was on another level for me. As for the brown color pallet, that can only be for Q1 and Q2. Q3 was out there with futuristic setting and colors. Dont forget, 6 months later they released Quake 3 Team Arena....much larger maps for larger teams.
I loved the chaos of Q3.
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AlteredForms
Banned
You're talking about the popularity of Quake and that's something I'm not commenting upon. ID Software and Quake were unrivalled in market share, I'm talking about each game as their own. Quake III does look much better graphically, but the maps are similar in their brown and red colour schemes, that so much is undeniable. As for Quake III Team Arena, that was late to the party and is not the original game, Epic managed to pull off the complete package upon release and supplemented it with free map packs.
Yeah I think thats more your personal opinion but where I played, Q3 was king and every internet cafe if it had 20-30 computers, 2/3 were always populated by Quake players. Especially at the time I think Q3 looked much better because of the lighting and geometry wheres UT felt very rectangular/simple shaped maps. I liked UT as well but Q3 was on another level for me. As for the brown color pallet, that can only be for Q1 and Q2. Q3 was out there with futuristic setting and colors. Dont forget, 6 months later they released Quake 3 Team Arena....much larger maps for larger teams.
I loved the chaos of Q3.
AlteredForms
Banned
Please. A lowly specimen like you would nowhere near affect a higher being like me. Be gone peasant.
That's why some of the base Q3 maps were ported in all wannabe competitive fps since I guess. Funny that you missed the one interesting weapon that could have helped your point (a little) about UT.
calistan
Member
You can tell I was never a tournament-level player! If I was watching a tournament for fun, though, I'd much rather see the game looking 'normal' than with all the textures stripped out. It's like viewing the Matrix.I can understand you feel that way given how closed/rigid recent fps are but this has been standard toutnament setting in Q3 for more than 20 years
DemonGamerTTT
Member
I don't know... Kids now days only play slow ass boring grindfest games.
They are not used to games that use mechanical skills, there's also the fact that most kids have the attention spam of a fish and can't really put the time and effort required to master fast skill based games.
There a reason why games like Warzone and other trashroyales are so popular.
They are not used to games that use mechanical skills, there's also the fact that most kids have the attention spam of a fish and can't really put the time and effort required to master fast skill based games.
There a reason why games like Warzone and other trashroyales are so popular.
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Ivan
Member
I consider myself a huge arena fps fan, Quake was my main thing back in the 90s,but as I got older, I realized that what I loved about those games was their pure form, gameplay mechanics and design/graphics.
You could easily say they were made by the ultimate geeks.
I remember my ass being kicked every single time I tried any form of online multiplayer, but it was huge fun with my friends. We just kicked around maps for fun and it was awesome. We weren't even close to that "controlling the map, armor and whatnot" way of thinking.
Somehow everyone who played online was too hard core for me, I just couldn't keep up and honestly, I wasn't bad at all.
If that's how I feel, I can imagine what could it look like in the eyes of mainstream audience.
Sales of Q3 were pretty bad, even if it had cult status. Different times, really.
Funny thing is that as I got older I started to appreciate slower paced console fps experiences much more. What looked like a lesser version before is actually very welcome today. Same story for m/k and controller.
That's life I guess...
You could easily say they were made by the ultimate geeks.
I remember my ass being kicked every single time I tried any form of online multiplayer, but it was huge fun with my friends. We just kicked around maps for fun and it was awesome. We weren't even close to that "controlling the map, armor and whatnot" way of thinking.
Somehow everyone who played online was too hard core for me, I just couldn't keep up and honestly, I wasn't bad at all.
If that's how I feel, I can imagine what could it look like in the eyes of mainstream audience.
Sales of Q3 were pretty bad, even if it had cult status. Different times, really.
Funny thing is that as I got older I started to appreciate slower paced console fps experiences much more. What looked like a lesser version before is actually very welcome today. Same story for m/k and controller.
That's life I guess...
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AeonGaidenRaiden
Member
Well to be honest I dont understand this comment that some videos pointed out as a fall for the arena shooters, that they are too hard for mainstream players. I dont play Fortnite, if I joined a match Id get raped. Same for Warzone 2, Apex, Counter-Strike etc. Any shooter requires time to get good at it.
Older arena shooters Id say are even easier than modern one since all you had to concentrate on was knowledge of weapons and map control. New games you got the whole hero thing with every character having a special ability/class. I mean we are having souls games selling 20 million units, games specifically anti-mainstream, not sure how anyone thinks Quake or UT were too hard for newcomers.
Older arena shooters Id say are even easier than modern one since all you had to concentrate on was knowledge of weapons and map control. New games you got the whole hero thing with every character having a special ability/class. I mean we are having souls games selling 20 million units, games specifically anti-mainstream, not sure how anyone thinks Quake or UT were too hard for newcomers.
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The spectator features allowed to watch the game live from your client through qtv or afterwards with the demo, with all the graphic bells ans whistle. Still unmatched
AlteredForms
Banned
Not really, only a handful of them were copied and expanded upon and often in creatively bankrupt shooters anyway. And you’ve missed the point if you think one weapon is more important than another in UT, every single one from the starting enforcer pistol is effective in the right hands, or were you one of those people that spammed the flak cannon?
Dude it's obvious that you never played anything else than FFA on random servers. I've not missed your point you don't have one. Neither do you have the AFPS knowledge to understand mine, this leads nowhere.
AlteredForms
Banned
This is a pure example of pigeon chess people. A player who turns into a pigeon, shits all over the table and struts around thinking he's won. Erm, isn't free-for-all action essentially what Quake III: Arena is, and that's deathmatch, or were you referring to team modes or professional duel matches instead? Yes you have missed the point if you're signalling out one cool weapon in UT, every single one has two firing modes which can often be combined, not to mention with strafing and double-dodging, hence where the gameplay depth comes in.
And your final statement about you having more arena-FPS knowledge is laughable using this thread as a reference. All you've done is come in and mentioned the stripped down graphics of Q3 in the pro scene and the spectator mode, you couldn't even bothered to provide evidence or make comparisons between the two movement systems in either games, why you think UT is shallow or any other point for that matter. But oh no, I don't have enough knowledge to understand your mighty kind, this leads nowhere!
Dr. Claus
Banned
Herbspiceguy
Member
It was just a natural evolution of the genre after QuakeWorld and all the multiplayer modes/mods blew up.
Attack the argument, not the person. Continue with the childish insults and you will be removed from the thread.
OK I'll bite.
Regarding movement you're talking about UT having strafing, ie moving sideways. Like all FPS ever since wolf3d. How is that even remarquable? Meanwhile Q3 has circle jumping, which means that going forward and strafing in a direction while simultaneously turning in the same direction, you will jump further. The rotation needs to be pretty accurate in both amplitude and speed. A famous exemple of it is the raw jump from bridge to rail in q3dm6. Ofc you can even do it backwards if you fancy :
...
Then Q3 movement has momentum through strafe-jumping where, again, precise angles are needed, here's a 2h30 theory vid :
Oh and with cpma you get good old bunnyhopping! In all cases it can be combined with weapons used as movement tools! Because weapons have actual knockback!!!
See? Amazing!!
And you can use it in real games! And ofc weapon knockback can be used to mess with your opponent's movement...
And all these options can be used to attack a position from unorthodox angles, but the weapon based movement options (e.g. rocket jumps) will take a toll on your health which make it risky, especially if the opponent has a lg or rg.
And then there is map control, item timing and delaying, item drops, powerups management or denying, cessing, ...
And I've barely scratched the surface.
Now do entertain me little pigeon and tell me about UT's depth.
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Generic
Member
No, better mechanics and teamplay killed Unreal Tournament.
this killed unreal tournament
just let this sink in
Spukc
always chasing the next thrill
Laptop1991
Member
I owned both games, but wasn't a fan of mutliplayer. but my kids played the hell out of Unreal Tournament, but not Quake 3, UT had more variety of modes and gameplay and was the better MP game for me.
calistan
Member
Now that's just flat out unfair! I appreciate the level of skill it takes to do that, but it reminds me of when people discovered 'snaking' in Mario Kart on the DS, and from that moment on the only players who'd ever win online were those who were prepared to spend the entire race waggling around to get mini turbos. I mean, it's in the game so I guess it's legit, but it's not really the way it was meant to be played.
Personally I preferred Unreal because it seemed a bit more fun. Trying to pen the other team into their spawn on Facing Worlds, modifiers like instagib, darkmatches, low gravity. People at work played Quake 3 on Mac when the first test version came out, on that abstract map with the platforms floating in space, and even then it seemed pretty hardcore. Too fast for me.
Ye the games catered to different publics. But trust me, no fps is as exhilarating to play as Q3/QW at the highest level
kvltus lvlzvs
Member
The social aspect of vidya peaked with server lobbies
AlteredForms
Banned
I must have missed this notification after having so many this week, and it appears as though I missed out on the fun due to the moderator warning. So you've bothered to provide some evidence this time in regards to Quake III's movement mechanics and it's not surprising to anybody here because we've all the rocket-jump compilations on Youtube. Whilst UT doesn't have as fast a movement speed, pro players were able to circumvent this by double-dodging across the map, it's not quite the clusterfuck Q3 is on the pro levels, but it's still works and is fun regardless.
The depth from UT comes largely from the weapons. All of them have double firing modes and all are practical and deadly in the right hands. I can use the bio rifle to create toxic traps at specific chokepoints, make enemies think about spacing with the shock rifle combo, shoot around corners with the ripper and even kill an enemy with the starting enforcer pistol with enough movement and aim. And again this principle applies to the exact things you have mentioned in regards to item timing, powerup management and map traversal. The maps in UT are much more varied in terms of their artistic design, but still have logic in their level geometry. Specific weapons are placed at specific points in maps where the action will take place and because they're bigger and multi-layered than Q3's, you don't always have to charge into the fray. Adopt a different playstyle if you want, simply kill from a distance with the long range weapons or ambush other players who just came out of a firefight.
But all that mechanical stuff is irrelevant. I wasn't making a comparison of both games on their movement speeds, I was taking them as their own whole packages respectively. UT99 has more and better weapons (with 2x firing modes), more and incredibly varied maps in terms of gameplay and theme, more gameplay modes, a better soundtrack and gameplay modifiers. Q3 on the other hand has faster and frenetic movement speed, some iconic maps (Longest Yard) and slightly better graphics due to John Carmack's brilliance. Don't take my word for it, just look at Metacritic with UT99 sitting at 92 with 605 positive user scores to only 22 negative. Quake III on the other hand isn't even rated, though it has 267 positive to only 4 negative.
Unreal Tournament (1999) Reviews
The stakes are high. On the one hand, fame, fortune, glory; on the other hand, death. Prove your skill in the arenas of the future, leading your team of computer-controlled "bots" to victory in the Grand Tournament, or compete with the best of the best via LAN or the Internet in...
www.metacritic.com
Quake III Arena Reviews
Quake III Arena offers a complete deathmatch experience. The game features new 3D arenas, weapons, and character models.
www.metacritic.com
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AlteredForms
Banned
I meant it was irrelevant in the whole picture of both games. I should probably rephrase that. You're making the case for Q3's blistering speed and rocket jumps as being the only valid way of doing things, UT99 with it's double-dodging movement and slower speed is considered "dumb downed and casual" due to your ID Software tunnel vision. UT99 provides the same exhilaration and sometimes more due to the reasons I mentioned before (most notably it's kickass soundtrack), and Q3 is the same dumb fun on the surface, the complexity with any well designed game is just underneath.
My point with the Metacritic argument was that I found it funny how Quake III wasn't even rated, despite the fact that it should be and UT99 was. It had a much more higher user score and it scored higher with critics, and since that's the best consensus we have then the numbers don't lie. In this round, UT99 wins easily, but it's made me think more about the releases of these franchises and I'm going to make a poll for comparisons sake.
Pioneered multiplayer gaming on the PC, had an awesome single player campaign with varied environments and enemy designs. Unreal had a solid campaign aswell, but lacklustre multiplayer loses points. The character models were too slim.
Not an accurate comparison to make between two games released 6 years apart, but they're both single player titles with a focus on their in-game universes. I dislike Quake II for several reasons, the campaign is a slog, the environments look terrible and I hate a couple enemy designs. The graphics were top notch for the time and the weapons some of the best in FPS history. Unreal II looks amazing, but is simply lacklustre elsewhere.
One of the highest rated first-person shooters of all time and for good reason. All the content from the maps to the mutators to soundtrack is top notch.
Unpopular opinion as UT2004 is the complete FPS package, but I dislike it purely for the cartoony visual style. There's also some crappy maps, garbage game modes and stupid character races. Quake 4 is a welcome return to form with a great campaign and essentially updated Quake III: Arena for the multiplayer. It has less content, but I prefer it on the whole.
Unreal Tournament III is probably my second favourite in the franchise, it does everything extremely well. Amazing graphics for the time, good cooperative mode, meaty weapons and audio design. Has few maps than other UT games, but it focuses on quality rather than quantity, and all of them are well designed.
Overall Winner = Quake (3 Votes)
Runner-up = Unreal Tournament (2 Votes)
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Yes, UT was better for kids.
John Carmack thought about taking it out, but he realized it made the game better, so he decided to leave it in. It’s not like queer-ass Mario Kart
( can you tell I’m an All-Stars Transformed fan, lol). It’s all good though, plenty of game styles to go around. We’re not all like AlteredForms and lose our shit when someone likes a game he doesn’t.