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[Trup1aya]

The problems are inherent due to the nature of UWP. It's been clear from the start that UWP is not a platform that was created with the intention of AAA games being one of the primary uses. Hence everything that has happened since Tomb Raider released on the Windows store has been reactive rather than proactive. They are scrambling around trying to fix problems that are quite ridiculous in the current age of PC gaming. So yes, let's call a spade a spade and say that a lot of the issues are due to UWP not being fit for purpose for PC gaming.

Microsoft are only changing things because their hand is being forced. If they really cared then things like Gsync and SLI support would have been present from the start before they embarked on the venture back into PC gaming. Hell, if they really cared they would have fixed things like vsync and Gsync immediately after Tomb Raider released. 3 months have passed between Tomb Raider and Quantum break releasing so they have had ample time to try and make an effort, get their shit together, fix a few things and give Quantum Break a chance but instead we have had nothing but words from these guys. Classic Microsoft.

But instead of calling them out on this let's praise them for stating their intentions to fix problems that shouldn't have existed in the first place. Oh, and we mustn't say bad things about them or the platform in the meantime, give them time, it's not finished. Well if it's not finished then why the fuck are you demanding £50 for shoddy ports released on the platform? This shit would struggle to even make it onto early access on steam.

Oh and by the way, I didn't make any assumptions about UWP only supporting 1st party peripherals. Read again if you care to.

Perhaps it's you that needs to read again. Read up on the subject you are talking about.

UWP is meant to be a new standard development API. It's suppose to be used for ALL applications, and AAA gaming is just one type of application amongst a sea of them. so of course AAA gaming isn't a PRIMARY use case; and MS isn't PRIMARILY a gaming company...

Which would explain why gaming centric issues are in the schedule to be fixed rather than being fixed already.

No one argues that UWP is currently ready for AAA gaming. It clearly isn't. and MS shouldn't release games in this state. You allege that MS is only changing things because they are forced, when in reality, UWP and Win10 are in a lot of ways, WIP, and they have been slowly, but surely making improvements since day 1. It's much more likely that other issues were simply higher on the list.

But on the subject of whether or not the premise of UWP will always prevent developers from shipping good games due to its inherent nature; there is no technical reason to believe that is the case. Outside of modding ALL of the issues can, and most likely will be fixed in an OS update.

Regarding Forza Apex, you never should have gotten involved in the convo. I corrected and incorrect statement from another user. You then quoted me and attempted to counter an argument that no one made using unsubstatiated assertions.

 

[LordRaptor]

I would have thought you were serious there with calling win32 legacy (because that's how ridiculous the arguments have become from the defenders

MS themselves refer to Win32 as 'legacy' and have done since Windows 8 and the Appstore pushed RT Apps as the future of device convergence, and the benefits of being able to make an RT application that will run on multiple Ms devices.
Nobody supported it and nobody cared.

 

[SneakersSO]

That's sad to see.

I was hoping he could tell us more about the future of backwards compatibility on the PC.

I was hoping he could finally tell us how game sharing was supposed to work under Microsoft's initial pitch for the X1.

 

[Knurek]

No one argues that UWP is currently ready for AAA gaming.

Microsoft does.
They did release 4 AAA UWP games this year, right?

 

[Kezen]

Saul got banned for astroturfing I assume.

I had sent him over to Bish in investigate, citing his inexplicable posts here and his circumspect posting history.

He was way too obvious.

 

[GhostTrick]

Saul got banned for astroturfing I assume.

I had sent him over to Bish in investigate, citing his inexplicable posts here and his circumspect posting history.

So... the astroturfing is real ? :")

 

[Akronis]

How is win32 perfectly ok from a security standpoint?
Opening the wrong exe could be devastating.

If I block the SSH port for my Linux VPS and lock myself out, is that the fault of the OS?

 

[MUnited83]

Saul got banned for astroturfing I assume.

I had sent him over to Bish in investigate, citing his inexplicable posts here and his circumspect posting history.

 

[CrispyBoar]

Saul got banned for astroturfing I assume.

I had sent him over to Bish in investigate, citing his inexplicable posts here and his circumspect posting history.

It's about time. I've just read all of his posts in this thread &...good grief. Nothing but constant shilling for a company that doesn't give two shits about PC gamers & PC gaming in general.

 

[aeolist]

discussing bannings is kind of a no-no here

pm a mod if you want to know why he's gone

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

So... the astroturfing is real ? :")

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=478787

Has everything including telling posters that they would reimburse ticket buyers if they didn't like the movie.

 

[Crayon]

So... the astroturfing is real ? :")

Every Company Too!

Yeah it's been real. But none of us can really know if Saul was a Turfer. He may have been banned for simply being a douchebag.

All douchebags are not astroturfers, but all astroturfers are douchebags.

 

[SPDIF]

Again, that's what they want, not what market wants.

No, that's not what they want. I'm sure they'd prefer not to do any of this and keep all of their technologies locked down to Windows. But like you said, we don't live in a world completely dominated by Windows anymore. That said, I'd say that in fact the market (the market being app developers in this case) absolutely want an easier way to make cross-platform apps. You only have to look at the success of Xamarin before the MS acquisition to see that.

Which makes this part of your post a little strange:

That's exactly what I was saying - MS is living in a dream world where they can force the market to use whatever they see fit because there are no other alternatives. This world has ended ten years ago.

Because again, they're really not This is far from Microsoft's dream (see above). This is just what they have to do to stay relevant in the mobile world. They're supporting (quite well I'll add) iOS, Android and Linux. There's three alternatives right there. As I've said, they absolutely would not be doing this if they had a choice. Or if they were living in some dream world like you seem to think.

 

[Trup1aya]

Microsoft does.
They did release 4 AAA UWP games this year, right?

I don't think MS "argues" anything. They just put out some products before they were ready.

If I block the SSH port for my Linux VPS and lock myself out, is that the fault of the OS?

No. Not at all. Did I suggest such a thing would be the OS fault? But in the case of MS, who's customers are may or may not be savy enough to protect themselves, it's probably in their best interest to provide some added protections. Especially when the vast majority of their customers will notice no difference in the functionality of their applications.

 

[Unai]

I don't think MS "argues" anything. They just put out some products before they were ready.



No. Not at all. Did I suggest such a thing would be the OS fault? But in the case of MS, who's customers are may or may not be savy enough to protect themselves, it's probably in their best interest to provide some added protections. Especially when the vast majority of their customers will notice no difference in the functionality of their applications.

If they can be disabled, sure.

 

[Akronis]

I don't think MS "argues" anything. They just put out some products before they were ready.



No. Not at all. Did I suggest such a thing would be the OS fault? But in the case of MS, who's customers are may or may not be savy enough to protect themselves, it's probably in there best interest to provide some added protections. Especially when the vast majority of their customers will notice no difference in the functionality of their applications.

The key difference being you can't turn those additional protections off, which is the problem.

There's a lot of smart people at Microsoft that could probably structure this in a way that doesn't affect the core group of people that want this functionality to remain. In it's current state, it's a giant handicap for gamers and tweakers that want the same functionality.

Microsoft needs to stop taking away my options because some people don't know how to use a fucking computer.

 

[JamesAR15]

Was kind of looking forward to trying this on my 5820k/980ti but looks like I'll pass, thanks for the heads up all!

 

[vcc]

The key difference being you can't turn those additional protections off, which is the problem.

There's a lot of smart people at Microsoft that could probably structure this in a way that doesn't affect the core group of people that want this functionality to remain. In it's current state, it's a giant handicap for gamers and tweakers that want the same functionality.

Microsoft needs to stop taking away my options because some people don't know how to use a fucking computer.

The smart people at Microsoft have really been tasked with a different goal, see if they can popularize their walled garden and if the backlash is controllable take the other options away. We have to watch them like hawks to make sure this doesn't happen.

 

[SunBroDave]

The smart people at Microsoft have really been tasked with a different goal, see if they can popularize their walled garden and if the backlash is controllable take the other options away. We have to watch them like hawks to make sure this doesn't happen.

.

 

[Kezen]

Microsoft should be ashamed for releasing the PC version in such state.

Hoping for them to take their responsability and fix this mess.

 

[Akronis]

The smart people at Microsoft have really been tasked with a different goal, see if they can popularize their walled garden and if the backlash is controllable take the other options away. We have to watch them like hawks to make sure this doesn't happen.

That's why I don't understand why people defend this tripe. It's clearly not for the betterment of the core users. Just another way Microsoft is exerting control over their OS to the detriment to their users.

 

[GHG]

Perhaps it's you that needs to read again. Read up on the subject you are talking about.

UWP is meant to be a new standard development API. It's suppose to be used for ALL applications, and AAA gaming is just one type of application amongst a sea of them. so of course AAA gaming isn't a PRIMARY use case; and MS isn't PRIMARILY a gaming company...

Which would explain why gaming centric issues are in the schedule to be fixed rather than being fixed already.

No one argues that UWP is currently ready for AAA gaming. It clearly isn't. and MS shouldn't release games in this state. You allege that MS is only changing things because they are forced, when in reality, UWP and Win10 are in a lot of ways, WIP, and they have been slowly, but surely making improvements since day 1. It's much more likely that other issues were simply higher on the list.

But on the subject of whether or not the premise of UWP will always prevent developers from shipping good games due to its inherent nature; there is no technical reason to believe that is the case. Outside of modding ALL of the issues can, and most likely will be fixed in an OS update.

Regarding Forza Apex, you never should have gotten involved in the convo. I corrected and incorrect statement from another user. You then quoted me and attempted to counter an argument that no one made using unsubstatiated assertions.

So basically UWP isn't fit for purpose for one of its intended uses. It's irrelevant whether that use is primary or not if it is supposed to be suited for all applications (it's clearly not suited to all applications in this case). Considering all of this, why are they insisting on using it when there are exists an alternative API which is tried and tested for this type of application? What you're basically saying is "it's not UWP's fault, but it is UWP's fault". If they were serious and really cared about PC gaming then fixing the UWP issues related to this would be a priority and would have already been fixed.

On Forza, my apologies. I'll be sure to ask your permission before getting involved in a discussion next time.

 

[nynt9]

Let's play along with the poster(s? Not sure if there's anyone other than Trup1aya) who are in favor of UWP. Assuming Microsoft somehow are the paragons of good will and deliver on all their promises for the platform and don't do any sinister stuff despite themselves. What's the end game here? What does a "perfect" version of UWP offer to a PC gamer that's preferable over anything else? How do the inherent drawbacks of the platform get balanced out by the promised features (what are they really?) of an ideal version of UWP? What should we be hoping for and why should we care for/want it?

 

[Akronis]

Let's play along with the poster(s? Not sure if there's anyone other than Trup1aya) who are in favor of UWP. Assuming Microsoft somehow are the paragons of good will and deliver on all their promises for the platform and don't do any sinister stuff despite themselves. What's the end game here? What does a "perfect" version of UWP offer to a PC gamer that's preferable over anything else? How do the inherent drawbacks of the platform get balanced out by the promised features (what are they really?) of an ideal version of UWP? What should we be hoping for and why should we care for/want it?

I don't think the fundamental end goal or feature set for UWA was ever meant to benefit core users like gamers and modders.

This is pretty clearly focusing on developers and casual PC users.

 

[vcc]

That's why I don't understand why people defend this tripe. It's clearly not for the betterment of the core users. Just another way Microsoft is exerting control over their OS to the detriment to their users.

Console allegiances, seeing criticisms of the actions/strategy/implications as a criticism of a platform they have vested identity in.

Vested interest, people intending to make stuff for that ecosystem probably want to blunt criticisms of it.

 

[Maztorre]

But on the subject of whether or not the premise of UWP will always prevent developers from shipping good games due to its inherent nature; there is no technical reason to believe that is the case. Outside of modding ALL of the issues can, and most likely will be fixed in an OS update.

"Outside of one of the key features of PC games, a feature that has driven some of the most critically and commercially successful games on the platform, it will be exactly the same." That's great news.

 

[SunBroDave]

Considering all of this, why are they insisting on using it when there are exists an alternative API which is tried and tested for this type of application?

Because Microsoft doesn't give a shit about PC games. They don't care about delivering good pc gaming products, they are using these games as a Trojan Horse to get people to upgrade to Windows 10 and adopt UWP. They could not care less if these were good products or not.

 

[Kezen]

Console allegiances, seeing criticisms of the actions/strategy/implications as a criticism of a platform they have vested identity in.

Vested interest, people intending to make stuff for that ecosystem probably want to blunt criticisms of it.

Eloquently said and very sad to witness.

 

[Akronis]

Because Microsoft doesn't give a shit about PC games. They don't care about delivering good pc gaming products, they are using these games as a Trojan Horse to get people to upgrade to Windows 10 and adopt UWP. They could not care less if these were good products or not.

Console allegiances, seeing criticisms of the actions/strategy/implications as a criticism of a platform they have vested identity in.

Vested interest, people intending to make stuff for that ecosystem probably want to blunt criticisms of it.

This is what I sadly think as well. There is no reason to believe that Microsoft will ever do right to PC gamers based on this small taste of UWA and their past with such amazing ventures as GFWL.

 

[void666]

Today i learned a new word: astroturfing
Thanks gaf.

I was neutral about this whole UWP debacle. But now i really want to see microsoft fail.

 

[Kezen]

I was neutral about this whole UWP debacle. But now i really want to see microsoft fail.

So do Microsoft apparently.

 

[Grief.exe]

So do Microsoft apparently.

That's what is truly inexplicable about this entire situation.

It's almost like we are back to the GFWL days of Microsoft corporate culture where the internal departments are so competitive that they are actively hurting other departments.

 

[Freiya]

Yeah it could be a phishing tool that will capture your passwords as you're typing them into Chrome.

What about piracy?

 

[dgrdsv]

What about piracy?

Or better yet what about global warming?

 

[Crayon]

What about piracy?

I'm terrorfied.

 

[jelly]

That's what is truly inexplicable about this entire situation.

It's almost like we are back to the GFWL days of Microsoft corporate culture where the internal departments are so competitive that they are actively hurting other departments.

Not really, they aren't separate anymore. Xbox, Devices are within the Windows group so it's no surprise what comes first and that is for the benefit of mobile like apps and the Windows store. Xbox is now completely under the boot of Windows. That successful App Store bus coming along, PC gaming/Xbox will get thrown under it to get on board.

 

[MaLDo]

Saul got banned for astroturfing I assume.

I had sent him over to Bish in investigate, citing his inexplicable posts here and his circumspect posting history.

I will miss you Saul.



No.

 

[vcc]

I'm terrorfied.

Global sea piracy was on the rise, then it declined again. I blame bad statisticians and global warming.

 

[potatohead]

Every Company Too!

Yeah it's been real. But none of us can really know if Saul was a Turfer. He may have been banned for simply being a douchebag.

All douchebags are not astroturfers, but all astroturfers are douchebags.

This.

 

[Corpekata]

I don't think Saul was astroturfing, he was just an idiot fanboy. Video game companies rarely need to astroturf given the nature of their hardcore fans already.

 

[Freiya]

Or better yet what about global warming?

Not sure how this is relevant unless you are just trying to do the typical anti MS shit posting.

I'm terrorfied.

Same basically applies to you as well. Not sure why piracy is some how a joke all of a sudden. I'm under the impression that uwa/win10 store has anti piracy measures. Unless devs/pubs still have to pay for the likes of denuvo even on top of uwa.

 

[cakely]

Or better yet what about global warming?

We all know there's a direct correlation, so by keeping piracy down, global warming will surely follow. Based Microsoft saving the planet!

 

[dgrdsv]

Not sure how this is relevant unless you are just trying to do the typical anti MS shit posting.

Oh you're serious? Ok let's talk about piracy. What UWP has over Win32 in terms of piracy?

 

[aeolist]

Not sure how this is relevant unless you are just trying to do the typical anti MS shit posting.



Same basically applies to you as well. Not sure why piracy is some how a joke all of a sudden. I'm under the impression that uwa/win10 store has anti piracy measures. Unless devs/pubs still have to pay for the likes of denuvo even on top of uwa.

piracy of UWP apps is already possible and currently happening

 

[Freiya]

Oh you're serious? Ok let's talk about piracy. What UWP has over Win32 in terms of piracy?

Did you not read my full post? I don't think you did because if you did then you wouldn't be asking me this question.

piracy of UWP apps is already possible and currently happening

I've yet to see a UWP game pirated. Is that because of UWP or because of other anti piracy measures? I dunno but that's basically my question. I thought UWP created a sandbox and made it difficult to access files.

 

[RealityCheque]

Today I learned about astroturfing.

Thankyou Saul for sacrificing yourself in the name of my education.

 

[Akronis]

Did you not read my full post? I don't think you did because if you did then you wouldn't be asking me this question.

Explain what you are trying to get at with that post then, because I'm reading it the same as aeolist and dr_rus

 

[w0s]

Console allegiances, seeing criticisms of the actions/strategy/implications as a criticism of a platform they have vested identity in.

Vested interest, people intending to make stuff for that ecosystem probably want to blunt criticisms of it.

or unvested people see it as a way to play a couple more games a year they otherwise wouldn't have. That is the only reason I don't care about a lot of the inherent issues. Some of which sli/gysnc will be fixed but the modding will never be where PC gamers will want it. If I get a decent port though I really don't care. I will only use it for 2 or so exclusive games a year that come out.

 

[Freiya]

Explain what you are trying to get at with that post then, because I'm reading it the same as aeolist and dr_rus

check my last post please =)

 

[CyberPunked]

Can someone explain how the renderer works?