Quenelle, new nazi salute or just anti-establishment?

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kurisu1974 said:
He's also a muslim and the gesture is anti-Zionist.

(Not validating, just saying)



I love how people pick one thing out of a post, as if it invalidates all the rest.

Should have said muslim, I agree.
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You are saying shit. He's neither arab or muslim: he's atheist anti-religous.
He mocked violently stupid djihadist believing to see virgin in paradise, after 9/11 for example. He mocked muslims, asians, christians, it WAS OK. But then he made a sketch about zionists and all the media and jewish lobby fell on him cowardly.

And also: he's only half-cameroonian, the other half is white french(from Bretagne).

Secondly, you're lying and saying shit again when you say his fans are "arabs" or muslims. They are from all origins: gaullois(slang name for "pure french"), french from north African ancient colonies(Algeria, Tunisia, Africa etc..), asians etc..
Here you can see supporters of Dieudonné against terrorists of the French Jewish Defense Leaguehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Defense_Leaguehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Defense_League (forbidden in USA but tolerated in France where they beat everyone they want).
JDL nervis are singing "Am Israel Hai" while Dieudonné supporters sings La Marseillaise.
 
heyf00L said:
You're right, pictures of it don't make it anti-semitic. The fact that it was invented to be anti-semitic makes it anti-semitic and the fact that racism is bad makes it bad.
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What makes you think it was invented to be anti-Semitic. The fact that it's inventor said it specifically wasn't? The fact he has gone to great pains to point out he is not an anti-Semite? What?

And who said racism is good?
 
It's history and the guy who popularized it point very strongly towards it being anti Semitic.
 
I'm not very familiar with France and its relationship to zionism, but accusing people who are anti-zionism of being anti-semitic is a really convenient way of shutting down the argument and pulling out the victim card when it bears little relation to the current situation.

By the same token, seeing people make this gesture in front of holocaust sites and the like just seems callous and insensitive and does question if their issues perhaps run deeper than just a distaste for the modern state of Israel and its role in the world.

So I don't really know what to think.
 
ComputerMKII said:
Just to make things clear (I don't know if you actually forgot the title or just decided not to mention it), the film you're referring to is Stanley Kubrick's Dr. Strangelove:

FolamourGeste.jpg
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That slipped my mind, thanks for the reminder.
Also that's a good movie, people should watch it.

Khaz said:
It started as a benign gesture really. If I asked you to make a gesture to mean "sneakingly stick it up someone's arse", you'd probably do something similar: hand low, arm straight and a small hit to the shoulder to give momentum to the projectile. And that's exactly how it started, in one of his first solo shows. He was mocking someone and did the gesture to mean "up yours". Seeing the gesture was becoming really popular he just embraced it, and here we are.
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Ah.
coincidence it is then.

Khaz said:
I keep hearing people saying we should stop talking about him, giving him exposure. I disagree with that. He already has all the exposure he wants on the internet, all his shows are a success, he didn't need the traditional media to be heard. If anything we spent the last ten years not giving him exposure, he grew in popularity regardless. French needed a wake-up call on Dieudonne so they can call him on his bullshit.
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This is something we can agree
 
EmiPrime said:
France has a real problem with anti-semitism and homophobia both from the far right and muslims. Everyone knows what the quenelle really means. I am not willing to pass this off as stupid people doing a meaningless thing, I think the salute and Dieudonné's increase in popularity is very symptomatic of the ills of French society.
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Not what I meant. They know what it means, and they do it on purpose. What I'm saying is a significant part of them were endoctrinated, they came to him because he was "fighting the system". But instead of fighting the system, they now fight jews. (This is part of my rant as for why freedom of speech needs to be regulated, but it would be off topic here)
 
Hikash Winzalf said:
You are saying shit. He's neither arab or muslim: he's atheist anti-religous.
He mocked violently stupid djihadist believing to see virgin in paradise, after 9/11 for example. He mocked muslims, asians, christians, it WAS OK. But then he made a sketch about zionists and all the media and jewish lobby fell on him cowardly.

And also: he's only half-cameroonian, the other half is white french(from Bretagne).

Secondly, you're lying and saying shit again when you say his fans are "arabs" or muslims. They are from all origins: gaullois(slang name for "pure french"), french from north African ancient colonies(Algeria, Tunisia, Africa etc..), asians etc..
Here you can see supporters of Dieudonné against terrorists of the French Jewish Defense Leaguehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Defense_Leaguehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Defense_League (forbidden in USA but tolerated in France where they beat everyone they want).
JDL nervis are singing "Am Israel Hai" while Dieudonné supporters sings La Marseillaise.
Click to expand...

Let's agree they are mostly fools then, no need to get racial.
 
kurisu1974 said:
Attention seeking Jew hating Muslims use this as it recently was popularized by some retarded Arab stand-up comedian (who said it was meant anti-Zionist, not anti-Jew) but it has existed since the 1980s. The guy just wants attention and money if you ask me.

In essence, the Nazi salute is illegal in France (and most of Europe), so they created this as an alternative.
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WOW.
Total bullshit.
You don't know what you're talking about.
 
Sacrimoni said:
What makes you think it was invented to be anti-Semitic. The fact that it's inventor said it specifically wasn't? The fact he has gone to great pains to point out he is not an anti-Semite? What?

And who said racism is good?
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There's really no point arguing this. All the evidence sits right here in this thread staring you in the face.

And your personal views aren't hard to figure out either.

So stay in denial if you want.
 
captainnapalm said:
I'm not very familiar with France and its relationship to zionism, but accusing people who are anti-zionism of being anti-semitic is a really convenient way of shutting down the argument and pulling out the victim card when it bears little relation to the current situation.
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That's exacly what is happening. But jewish/zionist lobby in France is scarily strong. Everyone knows Manuel Valls did all this with the impulsion of CRIF(equivalent of USA's AIPAC). It's not hidden! Nothing like the "shadowy conspiracy".
 
EvaristeG said:
Yeah, the ills of french society are anti semitism related (as it is qualified by ultra zionists such as Bernard Henry Lévy and consorts), not unemployment, insecurity, wages...
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And people like Frigide Barjot, Dieudonné M'Bala M'Bala and Marine Le Pen propose thoughtful solutions to resolve these problems... Oh wait, no. They just blame the Jews, the Gays and the Romani people for everything.
 
kurisu1974 said:
So you say they never heard of Dieudonné and his views, or the origin of the gesture, and this is what you think they mean by it? Whose anus are they referencing exactly? Not mine I hope?


When you say "they", you mean ALL the Jews, right? Or do you mean the Israeli government?
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What do you really think I mean.

EDIT: Very lame of you also to keep lying for 2 pages and then suddenly backtrack when you get found out.

EDIT2: You really wanted them to be Muslim Middle Easteners huh ?
 
I hope the latter, but in this thread I can't be sure. Also your post was very unclear in that case.

edit: where did I backtrack or lie? I was called out when I made a mistake and admitted to it?
 
It's a coward and weasel way of making anti Jewish remarks. Reding about deuidonne, he seems obsessed with Jews and generally comes off as a whackjob. Under the rules of Hitler and the Nazi creed, Dieudonne and the people in that pic would be extinct.
 
Marsyas said:
And people like Frigide Barjot, Dieudonné M'Bala M'Bala and Marine Le Pen propose thoughtful solutions to resolve these problems... Oh wait, no. They just blame the Jews, the Gays and the Romani people for everything.
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Don't give a shit about Barjot. Dieudonné doesn't propose any solutions as he's just a stand up artist, not ap olitician.

But you're straight up lying about Marine Le Pen. Not that I am a support of her. But you're lying period.

Society can have more than one problem at once, there isn't a rota.
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Antisemitism is not a problem in France. There aren't any anti semitic acts on a daily basis. If anything, christian and muslims are more subjects to vandalism and discriminations than jews nowadays. It is totally allowed to mock them, or to degrade their places of cult (see what the femen did in the church of Madeleine last christmast)
Zionism, hower, is enormously influencial over french politics since Hollande has been elected. Valls declared he was "eternally attached to Israel". Hollande visited Israel and bended the knee before the head of a government that kills children and apply racial segregation. Fabius opposed to an historic deal with Iran that would grealy benefit France just because of Israel.
 
Amjad said:
EDIT: Those fines are just ridicilous though. Freedom of speech etc. etc ?
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What I find just as worrisome is that the highest administrative court just banned him for performing his show last night, on the grounds of what they were expecting him to say, which they deemed contrary to human dignity, and allegedly qualified as a threat to public order (which is a legal requirement for a ban). It's a fascist ruling (even moreso considering it was called for by the Interior minister and delivered in a couple hours, while it takes days, weeks or months for ordinary people to get a court ruling) and shows that the government has no sense of priorities. They prefer to prevent a comedian from doing his work than actually taking care of real security issues, making him a martyr and further reinforcing his movement in the process. They are literally feeding the troll.
 
ComputerMKII said:
What I find just as worrisome is that the highest administrative court just banned him for performing his show last night, on the grounds that what he was expected to say in it might be contrary to human dignity, and qualifies as a threat to public order, which legally justifies a ban. It's a fascist ruling (even moreso considering the ruling was called for by the Interior minister and delivered in a couple hours, while it takes days, weeks or months for ordinary people to get a court ruling) and shows that the government has no sense of priorities. They prefer to prevent a comedian from doing his work than actually taking care of real security issues, making him a martyr and further reinforcing his movement in the process. They are literally feeding the troll.
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Well that is just icing on the cake. As you say they are litteraly feeding the troll now. People will look at him as a martyr now, with the establishment (and the jews) trying to get him down.

What a turn of events.
 
SketchTheArtist said:
It does. Went to see him twice live and watched 2-3 of his shows on DVD. He adds sometimes a little ''......really deep. Right to the elbow.'' which is pretty much your assumption that it means ''I'm sticking it in.''
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Well that would make sense given this:

"It is the trademark of the hugely controversial French comedian Dieudonne M'Bala M'Bala, who once said he would like to put a quenelle - a rugby-ball-shaped serving of fish or meat paste - up the backside of Zionists."
 
EvaristeG said:
Don't give a shit about Barjot. Dieudonné doesn't propose any solutions as he's just a stand up artist, not ap olitician.

But you're straight up lying about Marine Le Pen. Not that I am a support of her. But you're lying period.
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You're right she's putting everything on the back the EU.
She have no solution to any problem and have a program thinner than Lutte Ouvriere ever had.

Also freedom of speech is absolute in the US, in France WE DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT IT.
There's an expectation for it to be free but it's not the be all end all.
 
kurisu1974 said:
Yeah he wasn't Arab, my mistake.
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He isn't a jew hater (officialy) he's anti zionist.
There is no other stand up comedian arabic or not that popularize his bullshit.
And this is not an alternative to nazi salute.

I don't mean to be rude but i don't know why your putting arabs or muslims into this.

The guy went crazy when televisions in france decided to stop broadcasting anything related to him after a performance on live television where he mocked zionist.
I'm not defending the guy at all because he's crazy and obssesed with theories about zionist controlling France.
 
casablanca said:
He isn't a jew hater (officialy) he's anti zionist.
There is no other stand up comedian arabic or not that popularize his bullshit.
And this is not an alternative to nazi salute.

I don't mean to be rude but i don't know why your putting arabs or muslims into this.

The guy went crazy when televisions in france decided to stop broadcasting anything related to him after a performance on live television where he mocked zionist.
I'm not defending the guy at all because he's crazy and obssesed with theories about zionist controlling France.
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He didn't just mock zionists, he dressed up as a SS officer while mocking zionists.

Hikash Winzalf said:
http://www.rtl.fr/video/emission/la...l-valls-et-dieudonne-font-un-tabac-7768683068

The only journalist who will DARE to say it because he's... jew. (but not zionist, rather patriotic and anti-communautarisms)
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Yeah Eric Zemmour.
Ok someone else, I wouldn't believe him if he said the sun was rising.
Seriously he's not a neutral agent in this case.
And it wouldn't be the 1rst time he pulled something like that from his ass.
 
EvaristeG said:
Yeah, the ills of french society are anti semitism related (as it is qualified by ultra zionists such as Bernard Henry Lévy and consorts), not unemployment, insecurity, wages...
Click to expand...

You're right, France (and Europe in general) has problems of unemployement, insecurity etc. People have no money, no jobs, no education. And who will they blame? The foreigners, people from outside of the local community. Jews always have been a scapegoat, it's no different with Dieudonne. Dieudonne can criticise the government, the establishment all he wants but wtf is his problem with the jews? Ostracising a whole group regardless of their individuals is utterly stupid: "this guy had a bar-mitzvah so he must be part of the conspiracy". Do we have to wait for pogroms before acting on it? Or should we take action now and cut the bullshit?

daffy said:
What the hell?
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Did he burst your bubble?
 
EvaristeG said:
If anything, christian and muslims are more subjects to vandalism and discriminations than jews nowadays. It is totally allowed to mock them, or to degrade their places of cult (see what the femen did in the church of Madeleine last christmast)
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I sort of agree (but I don't know the actual figures of anti-religious acts). Where was Valls when this happened? (NSFW) http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1526398/thumbs/o-FEMEN-MADELEINE-570.jpg?6

It's violation of property at least (and, morally-wise it's profanation) and legal action was justified on all grounds. Yet, no one in the government did or said anything about that, for they were too obsessed with Dieudonné being a buffoon.
 
ComputerMKII said:
(even moreso considering the ruling was called for by the Interior minister and delivered in a couple hours, while it takes days, weeks or months for ordinary people to get a court ruling)
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Administrative court take decisions within the day every day, most of them are about illegal foreigners. It's not something unusual.
 
What a shitty thing to do on the streets. It would make some people feel unwelcome and unsafe if they saw it, especially if the people doing it were bloody soldiers or the police.

If you're doing that gesture in front of Jewish signs, monuments or symbols you are basically saying "Fuck the Jews," right? So what do we call people who do that?

Just to be clear.
 
Amjad said:
Read it in context, people will look at the situation as that, The Establishment & The Jews trying to end his career. Or some other conspiracy to that effect.

EDIT: I'll just add a "s" to that to prevent an uproar.
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Ok I see what you're saying.
 
ComputerMKII said:
I sort of agree (but I don't know the actual figures of anti-religious acts). Where was Valls when this happened? (NSFW) http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1526398/thumbs/o-FEMEN-MADELEINE-570.jpg?6

It's violation of property at least (and, morally-wise it's profanation) and legal action was justified on all grounds. Yet, no one in the government did or said anything about that, for they were too obsessed with Dieudonné being a buffoon.
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Actually there's a huge number of antisemitism done in France.
Way more than against any other faith actually.
But I guess it's less controversial to profanate jewish tombs than put red paints in churches...

Hikash Winzalf said:
There is a jewish problem in France, as there is in USA. I say jewish, but it's rather zionist problem. I desperate to see people can't realize it.
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And WTF is that?
I mean seriously a jewish problem in France?
like you want to gas them all or something?
 
ComputerMKII said:
I sort of agree (but I don't know the actual figures of anti-religious acts). Where was Valls when this happened? (NSFW) http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1526398/thumbs/o-FEMEN-MADELEINE-570.jpg?6
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I know that the source isn't impartial but ....
http://www.fdesouche.com/414028-inn...ite-en-anglais-ne-maitrisant-pas-notre-langue

It's disguting.

Mael said:
Actually there's a huge number of antisemitism done in France.
Way more than against any other faith actually.
But I guess it's less controversial to profanate jewish tombs than put red paints in churches...
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There is no way to know.
There is a LOT of anti christian + anti muslim acts in France too.
 
The people who do this want to be bigots but they don't want to deal with the consequences of being a bigot, so they hide behind the Anti Zionist arguement.
 
Hikash Winzalf said:
There is a jewish problem in France, as there is in USA. I say jewish, but it's rather zionist problem. I desperate to see people can't realize it.
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I'm curious to hear exactly what you thought or think this problem is. I've lived in the US for 4 years now and I haven't noticed a "jewish" problem.
 
Barzul said:
I'm curious to hear exactly what you thought or think this problem is. I've lived in the US for 4 years now and I haven't noticed a "jewish" problem.
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I live in various parts of France and I haven't noticed a "jewish" problem either.
I guess freemasons are next for him...
 
Barzul said:
I'm curious to hear exactly what you thought or think this problem is. I've lived in the US for 4 years now and I haven't noticed a "jewish" problem.
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Weird to still see straight up unadulterated blatant anti-semitism like that guy in 2014.

He got banned. The Jews even control NeoGAF!!
 
Hindle said:
The people who do this want to be bigots but they don't want to deal with the consequences of being a bigot, so they hide behind the Anti Zionist arguement.
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Yeah I kind off agree with this. They are too scared to do an outright Nazi Heil but still want to do some kind of sign. I think it's a very clear cut case with the people doing it in Auschwitz and in front of synagouges and whatnot.

I could maybe have my doubts with the pictures of people doing it in the more casual random spots though.

EDIT:
Dude Abides said:
Weird to still see straight up unadulterated blatant anti-semitism like that guy in 2014.
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LMAO. I got taken by surprise by that.

Anti-semitism is defintly not on the low, even in 2014.
 
Hikash Winzalf said:
There is a jewish problem in France, as there is in USA. I say jewish, but it's rather zionist problem. I desperate to see people can't realize it.
Click to expand...

They why wouldn't you just say Zionist. You know a large portion of the Zionist support in the US comes from the Christian Right. Stuff like that is why the line between anti Zionism and anti semitism can be blurry. I'm all for critique of Israel, and as American Jew I have plenty myself. But making statements like you did and then just reframing them with a qualifier doesn't suddenly make it not kinda antisemitic.
 
EvaristeG said:
Antisemitism is not a problem in France. There aren't any anti semitic acts on a daily basis. If anything, christian and muslims are more subjects to vandalism and discriminations than jews nowadays. It is totally allowed to mock them, or to degrade their places of cult (see what the femen did in the church of Madeleine last christmast)
Zionism, hower, is enormously influencial over french politics since Hollande has been elected. Valls declared he was "eternally attached to Israel". Hollande visited Israel and bended the knee before the head of a government that kills children and apply racial segregation. Fabius opposed to an historic deal with Iran that would grealy benefit France just because of Israel.
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I'll give you something. There is a jew problem in France. Well more like a crispation really, but because of the WW2, the jew deportation, millions killed in camps with the help of part of the french population and government, people are now very wary of what happens to this specific group.

However, just because other stuff happen to other communities doesn't mean we should dismiss complaining jews. If anything, we should treat the other communities as equally as we are treating the jews now, and not, as you are suggesting, diminishing the jews complaints. Asking for equality in treatment does NOT mean diminishing the other group rights. It's not a scale where one has to go lower in order for the other to go equal. They can both go higher.
 
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