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[ComputerMKII]

I will admit this much (I mainly wrote the following for Kabouter): while I don't believe the quenelle was invented as an anti-semitic, let alone nazi gesture (as people have said, it basically just meant 'up yours') the fact that it has been used for despicable purposes by Dieudonné and his fans (as showed by countless pictures of quenelles at Auschwitz, Holocaust memorials and so on) and its description as an inverted nazi salute by the Licra, the government and the media in recent times, has changed its public perception and generally-accepted meaning so it definitely bears an anti-semitic connotation that it perhaps didn't have before. Therefore, now more than ever, doing it in public is a terrible idea as it probably won't be interpreted in any favorable way. If you have ever thought of doing it (I haven't), you'd be better off changing your mind or switching to a less ambiguous/risqué sign.

 

[casablanca]

You do know there's such a thing as "droit d'asile" here?

Double standards.
Pissing in front of a mosque and and a church , threatens France of terrorisms and she got a french passeport.
She and her friends are causing more 'trouble a l'ordre publique' then dieudoné.

 

[EmiPrime]

He didn't just mock zionists, he dressed up as a SS officer while mocking zionists.

Is there a photo of this?

 

[remist]

Here's an overview of his works:

On 14 June 2006, Dieudonné was sentenced to a penalty of 4,500 Euro for defamation after having called a prominent Jewish television presenter a "secret donor of the child-murdering Israeli army".[87]
On 15 November 2007, an appellate court sentenced him to a 5,000 Euro fine because he had characterized "the Jews" as "slave traders" after being attacked in le Théâtre de la Main d'Or.[88]
On 26 June 2008, he was sentenced in the highest judicial instance to a 7,000 Euro fine for his characterization of Holocaust commemorations as "memorial pornography".[37]
On 27 February 2009, he was fined 75,000 Canadian dollars in Montreal for defamatory statements against the singer and actor Patrick Bruel after he called him a "liar" and an "Israeli soldier".[89]
On 26 March 2009, Dieudonné was fined a total of 3,000 Euros for defamation after having criticised Elisabeth Schemla, a Jewish journalist who ran the now defunct Proche-Orient.Info website. He declared on 31 May 2005 that the website wanted to "eradicate Dieudonné from the audiovisual landscape" and had said of him that "he's an anti-Semite, he's the son of Hitler, he will exterminate everyone".[90]
On 27 October 2009, he was sentenced to a fine of 10,000 Euros for "public insult of people of Jewish faith or origin" related to his show with Robert Faurisson.[91]
On 8 June 2010, he was sentenced to a fine of €10,000 for defamation towards the International League against Racism and Anti-Semitism, which he had called "a mafia-like association that organizes censorship".[92]

These fines are absurd. Does France not have any constitutional free speech guarantee?

 

[Kabouter]

I will admit this much (I hope Kabouter will understand my point of view): while I don't believe the quenelle was invented as an anti-semitic, let alone nazi gesture (as people have said, it basically just meant 'up yours') the fact that it has been used for despicable purposes by Dieudonné and his fans (as showed by countless pictures of quenelles at Auschwitz, Holocaust memorials) and its description as an inverted nazi salute by the Licra, the government and the media in recent times, has changed the public perception of the quenelle so it definitely bears an anti-semitic connotation that it perhaps didn't have before. Therefore, now more than ever, doing it in public is a terrible idea as it probably won't be interpreted favorably. If you have ever thought of doing it (I haven't), you'd be better off changing your mind or switch to a less risqué sign.

You're essentially repeating what my point was all along. Symbols are defined by how they are used. A Nazi salute itself wouldn't have been seen as offensive prior to the rise of Fascism.

These fines are absurd. Does France not have any constitutional free speech guarantee?

I think you'll find most countries don't have the same absolutist interpretation of free speech that the United States does, limits to it differ from place to place, France goes further than most.

 

[jerry1594]

Is there a photo of this?

There's this

 

[ComputerMKII]

You're essentially repeating what my point was all along. Symbols are defined by how they are used. A Nazi salute itself wouldn't have been seen as offensive prior to the rise of Fascism.



I think you'll find most countries don't have the same absolutist interpretation of free speech that the United States does, limits to it differ from place to place, France goes further than most.

Consider that I agree with you, then. It was a misunderstanding.

 

[captainnapalm]

I will admit this much (I mainly wrote the following for Kabouter): while I don't believe the quenelle was invented as an anti-semitic, let alone nazi gesture (as people have said, it basically just meant 'up yours') the fact that it has been used for despicable purposes by Dieudonné and his fans (as showed by countless pictures of quenelles at Auschwitz, Holocaust memorials and so on) and its description as an inverted nazi salute by the Licra, the government and the media in recent times, has changed its public perception and generally-accepted meaning so it definitely bears an anti-semitic connotation that it perhaps didn't have before. Therefore, now more than ever, doing it in public is a terrible idea as it probably won't be interpreted in any favorable way. If you have ever thought of doing it (I haven't), you'd be better off changing your mind or switch to a less risqué sign.

If this Dieudonné guy was serious about his criticisms of the Israeli state and its role in France he would have been careful to distance himself, and this quenelle thing, from bandwagoning anti-semites. This does not appear to be the case?

 

[Khaz]

I will admit this much (I mainly wrote the following for Kabouter): while I don't believe the quenelle was invented as an anti-semitic, let alone nazi gesture (as people have said, it basically just meant 'up yours') the fact that it has been used for despicable purposes by Dieudonné and his fans (as showed by countless pictures of quenelles at Auschwitz, Holocaust memorials and so on) and its description as an inverted nazi salute by the Licra, the government and the media in recent times, has changed its public perception and generally-accepted meaning so it definitely bears an anti-semitic connotation that it perhaps didn't have before. Therefore, now more than ever, doing it in public is a terrible idea as it probably won't be interpreted in any favorable way. If you have ever thought of doing it (I haven't), you'd be better off changing your mind or switching to a less ambiguous/risqué sign.

And /thread.

 

[Mael]

Is there a photo of this?

There should be, I've seen it on France 2 (and it was widely talked at the time too).

Double standards.
Pissing in front of a mosque and and a church , threatens France of terrorisms and she got a french passeport.
She and her friends are causing more 'trouble a l'ordre publique' then dieudoné.

I don't know the full story here but there's a very good reason why she could get a passport.
Also that have nothing to do with Dieudonné who is a French citizen.

These fines are absurd. Does France not have any constitutional free speech guarantee?

Yep but there's limitations too.
Hate speech is one.

 

[neorej]

I will admit this much (I mainly wrote the following for Kabouter): while I don't believe the quenelle was invented as an anti-semitic, let alone nazi gesture (as people have said, it basically just meant 'up yours') the fact that it has been used for despicable purposes by Dieudonné and his fans (as showed by countless pictures of quenelles at Auschwitz, Holocaust memorials and so on) and its description as an inverted nazi salute by the Licra, the government and the media in recent times, has changed its public perception and generally-accepted meaning so it definitely bears an anti-semitic connotation that it perhaps didn't have before. Therefore, now more than ever, doing it in public is a terrible idea as it probably won't be interpreted in any favorable way. If you have ever thought of doing it (I haven't), you'd be better off changing your mind or switching to a less ambiguous/risqué sign.

The swastika wasn't invented as the symbol of hate, but yet, here we are.

 

[casablanca]

I think you'll find most countries don't have the same absolutist interpretation of free speech that the United States does, limits to it differ from place to place, France goes further than most.

Actually the EU is pretty much absolutist about it .
France is often fined by the UE court for this.

 

[jerry1594]

I'm on my phone so I don't feel like linking pics but there's some in the link http://www.israellycool.com/2013/12/29/quenelle-ammunition-against-the-deniers/

 

[Kuldar]

These fines are absurd. Does France not have any constitutional free speech guarantee?

Well you are free to insult/defame people, they are free to sue you for insulting/defaming them.

 

[EmiPrime]

This is the best picture of it I have found.

 

[jerry1594]

Well you are free to insult people, they are free to sue you for insulting them.

Fuck that
Here's a couple screencaps

(let me know if too big)

 

[remist]

I think you'll find most countries don't have the same absolutist interpretation of free speech that the United States does, limits to it differ from place to place, France goes further than most.

I recognize that some countries have hate speech laws that wouldn't pass in the US, but something like this?

"On 8 June 2010, he was sentenced to a fine of €10,000 for defamation towards the International League against Racism and Anti-Semitism, which he had called "a mafia-like association that organizes censorship"

How can you possibly claim to even have a non-absolutist interpretation of freedom of speech with this kind of thing is par for the course.

 

[Kurtofan]

It's a Moron salute, popularized by a fascist.

 

[Kabouter]

Actually the EU is pretty much absolutist about it .
France is often fined by the UE court for this.

Well, not the EU, you mean the European Court of Human Rights, and the European Convention on Human Rights absolutely does not have an absolutist interpretation of free speech.

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.

2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.

Clearly, signatories are allowed to deviate far more than the US government would be able to under its constitution.

 

[harriet the spy]

If this Dieudonné guy was serious about his criticisms of the Israeli state and its role in France he would have been careful to distance himself, and this quenelle thing, from bandwagoning anti-semites. This does not appear to be the case?

Considering he essentially said, regarding a Jewish journalist, "when you think about gas chambers.... Too bad (they don't exist anymore)" I think we can safely conclude that no.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

That does not resemble the nazi salute.

It's a half salute. Beginning of the motion but not raising the arm completely.

The guy that popularized it is pretty offensive and has fascist sympathies.

 

[Mael]

I recognize that some countries have hate speech laws that wouldn't pass in the US, but something like this?

How can you possibly claim to even have a non-absolutist interpretation of freedom of speech with this kind of thing is par for the course.

Because defamation is really part of the law here.
Tabloids are regurlarly fined for this.

[im g]http://www.factsofisrael.com/en/images/articles/nazi-bastard-dieumoncul.jpg[/img]

This is the best picture of it I have found.

I love the filename : nazi-bastard-dieumoncul

 

[EmiPrime]

Another:

 

[ComputerMKII]

Administrative court take decisions within the day every day, most of them are about illegal foreigners. It's not something unusual.

Even the Council of State?

 

[Mael]

Even the Council of State?

Well yeah.
I guess it depends on the urgency of the matter.
It shouldn't be unheard of.

 

[remist]

Because defamation is really part of the law here.
Tabloids are regurlarly fined for this.

How can his opinion be defamation. Generally defamation has to be an actual factually false statement that was made purposefully with malice. If your defamation laws are so loose that the statement I quoted earlier is worthy of a fine then Frances defamation laws are a joke. Is there no backlash in France over this kind of Orwellian suppression of speech.

 

[Khaz]

How can his opinion be defamation. Generally defamation has to be an actual factually false statement that was made purposefully with malice. If your defamation laws are so loose that the statement I quoted earlier is worthy of a fine then Frances defamation laws are a joke.

It was an excerpt. You may want to read the full judgement for that.

 

[Mael]

How can his opinion be defamation. Generally defamation has to be an actual factually false statement that was made purposefully with malice. If your defamation laws are so loose that the statement I quoted earlier is worthy of a fine then Frances defamation laws are a joke.

I'm no lawyer but at face value like that I'd put it under insult more than defamation.
The fine was probably because he's a recidivist and didn't pay his other fines.
Also like pretty much all court trial, there may be more to the story.

 

[SuWeDi]

The San Antonio Spurs' Tony Parker recently apologized for an old photo of him that surfaced doing the gesture.

A lot of young people are doing it as an anti-establishment gesture, but the roots are firmly Anti-Jewish.

WRONG, WRONG and WRONG!

THIS is the root, First time Dieudonne ever perform it in public. (at 08:10).

Here he give himself the definition of it.

Google Pictures of people performing quenelle gesture. how many nazi like pictures or peoples you see there?

Some racist do the quenelle, some racist flip the bird, some racist use swastika, some racist smile too, we supose to believe quenelle, flipping the bird, swastika and smiling are by definition racist?

Reverse nazi salute? really? if even so, now we suppose to believe 5=-5?

Welcome to the new word order I guess.

Manipulation, propaganda, that all it is...

 

[ComputerMKII]

These fines are absurd. Does France not have any constitutional free speech guarantee?

To my great dissatisfaction, no: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_France

 

[BaronLundi]

Let's put some nicer images to cleanse this thread from the hateful comedian (and the morons that follow him even over here).

"It seems to me that past a certain age (translator's note : I reckon that's 12), one has to be prodigiously dumb or naive to believe that this gesture is anti-establishment and not a gesture of antisemitic hate."

Najat Vallaud-Belkacem (Spokerperson for the French Government)

<3 <3 <3

That being said, the decision of the supreme court is illegal, totally counter-effective and an unacceptable blow to freedom of speech. France will be condemned by the European Court of Human Rights. Our money, getting into his pockets, when he could have been condemned or even put to jail for the fines rightuflly put upon him that he didn't pay.

The growing influence on the zionist lobby on the current government makes me want to vomit.

Dis-moi que c'est un sarcasme.

 

[casablanca]

I don't know the full story here but there's a very good reason why she could get a passport.
Also that have nothing to do with Dieudonné who is a French citizen.

There must be a godd reason ....
It has everything to do with this burlesque Dieudoné case , he got censored for 'trouble a l'ordre publique'.

I just want to repeat that i'm not supporting dieudoné in any way.
I just hate this Valls personnal crusade and media brainwashing about this , not to talk about the justice loss of credibility .
We have so much problems to solve, i just can't understand why our gouvernement lose 3 weeks chasing dieudoné under LICRA and other bullshit groups pressue , justice is enough end have the power to do it.

 

[Kuldar]

Even the Council of State?

For the Council of State I think it's less usual. I'm not really following the judicial aspect so I don't know if they usex any exceptionnal procedure.

 

[FartOfWar]

http://k00ls.overblog.com/2013/12/p...a-quenelle-n-est-pas-un-geste-antisémite.html

it's anti-semetic as fuck

Holy shit, wasn't aware of this. ComputerMK seriously defending this?

 

[dripdripsplash]

Holy shit, wasn't aware of this. ComputerMK seriously defending this?

He is not defending that. Stop the hyperbole please.

 

[ComputerMKII]

Well, not the EU, you mean the European Court of Human Rights, and the European Convention on Human Rights absolutely does not have an absolutist interpretation of free speech.



Clearly, signatories are allowed to deviate far more than the US government would be able to under its constitution.

I can't wait for Dieudonné to take his case to the ECHR and see what happens. France has been sentenced by that court quite often and statistically is one of the worst in that matter, not far from Russia.

Unfortunately it might not take two hours but three to four years.

 

[Skellig Gra]

Shouldn't even give these morons the satisfaction of discussing it. Also nazi salute is really the roman salute. So kinda defeats the whole argument.

 

[isual]

i think its stupid coming from someone who has just seen it.

there will only be one sieg heil, and it will be the sieg heil that i've used before whenever i'm crazy.

it just looks like some sort of new rap move.

 

[kurisu_1974]

how many nazi like pictures or peoples you see there? .

Yeah well, it doesn't really work that way. Or do you judge people by looks only?

Some racist do the quenelle, some racist flip the bird, some racist use swastika, some racist smile too, we supose to believe quenelle, flipping the bird, swastika and smiling are by definition racist?

You have it backwards, not sure if you're doing it on purpose.

 

[SmokyDave]

WRONG, WRONG and WRONG!

THIS is the root, First time Dieudonne ever perform it in public. (at 08:10).

Here he give himself the definition of it.

Google Pictures of people performing quenelle gesture. how many nazi like pictures or peoples you see there?

Some racist do the quenelle, some racist flip the bird, some racist use swastika, some racist smile too, we supose to believe quenelle, flipping the bird, swastika and smiling are by definition racist?

Reverse nazi salute? really? if even so, now we suppose to believe 5=-5?

Welcome to the new word order I guess.

Manipulation, propaganda, that all it is...

Why is the gesture called the 'Quenelle'?

 

[Mael]

Let's put some nicer images to cleanse this thread from the hateful comedian (and the morons that follow him even over here).

"It seems to me that past a cerain age, one has to be prodigiously dumb or naive to believe that this gesture is anti-establishment and not a gesture of antisemitic hate."

Najat Vallaud-Belkacem (Spokerperson for the French Government)

<3 <3 <3

I really don't like NVB and everything she represent but for once it's nice to see her face instead of the shit guy.

There must be a godd reason ....
It has everything to do with this burlesque Dieudoné case , he got censored for 'trouble a l'ordre publique'.

Again I don't know much about the case you present.
I only know that that girl getting her passport could be for valid reason, the rest I'm not commenting.

I just want to repeat that i'm not supporting dieudoné in any way.
I just hate this Valls personnal crusade and media brainwashing about this , not to talk about the justice loss of credibility .
We have so much problems to solve, i just can't understand why our gouvernement lose 3 weeks chasing dieudoné under LICRA and other bullshit groups pressue , justice is enough end have the power to do it.

Well to be fair, making sure Dieudonné doesn't make another representation is so far the only thing they did that they can say is a positive after the mariage law.

I can't wait for Dieudonné to take his case to the ECHR and see what happens. France has been sentenced by that court quite often and statistically is one of the worst in that matter, not far from Russia.

Unfortunately it might not take two hours but three to four years.

Well if the ECHR was the same as the State councile you might have a point about how in one case they're quick and rather slow otherwise.
Heck the judicary system worked pretty quickly for this PoS.
A day or something for them to say that the show was ok or something.
They're unusually quick in this case.

 

[ComputerMKII]

That being said, the decision of the supreme court is illegal, totally counter-effective and an unacceptable blow to freedom of speech. France will be condemned by the European Court of Human Rights.

It's so rare that we agree on something. Today is a special day, thanks Dieudonné.

 

[Arcteryx]

So...it's like an inverted Nazi salute mixed with a Heisman push?

 

[casablanca]

Well to be fair, making sure Dieudonné doesn't make another representation is so far the only thing they did that they can say is a positive after the mariage law.

La fin ne justifie pas les moyens (a mon sens).
The should let the justice decide, no need to rush.

 

[Kuldar]

How can his opinion be defamation. Generally defamation has to be an actual factually false statement that was made purposefully with malice. If your defamation laws are so loose that the statement I quoted earlier is worthy of a fine then Frances defamation laws are a joke. Is there no backlash in France over this kind of Orwellian suppression of speech.

Well, there are very few convictions for defaming in France compare to how many trial there is. It's very hard to prove the malice. Maybe it's why there isn't any backlash here.

 

[Dude Abides]

Why is the gesture called the 'Quenelle'?

The wiki article says it's because Quenelle is a fish dish that looks like an anal suppository.

 

[ComputerMKII]

Why is the gesture called the 'Quenelle'?

The quenelle is a typical French dish* (hence why there is no English translation) that has a somewhat phallic shape. Dieudonné coined the expression 'mettre une quenelle' (to put a quenelle [up someone's ass]) for that reason.

*This is what the original quenelle looks like:

 

[Mael]

La fin ne justifie pas les moyens (a mon sens).
The should let the justice decide, no need to rush.

Well I'm not disagreeing with you here.
Actually it's the 3rd thing they can say they did right....I mean this, mariage pour tous, Sarkozy no longer president.
Yes they're pretty bad, even by our stupidly low standards...

 

[Skellig Gra]

*This is a quenelle

what is it really? I mean foodwise

 

[SoyTits]

http://www.france24.com/en/20140104-dieudonne-anti-racist-anti-semitic-zealot/

Never heard of this guy before today, but yeah, sounds like he's got some issues.