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Raoul Duke...

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First off, I'd like to say that all this "perfect world" bullshit by people who (with some exceptions) obviously know absolutely nothing about economics is hilarious. I won't get sucked in too deep, but there is one thing that I'd like to point out:

Squirrel Killer said:
Right now? A family of four, slightly above the poverty line pays $0 in federal taxes. In a straight flat tax system, they'd owe x% of their total income (where x = flat tax rate). In other words, they'd owe more under a straight flat tax system.

Nope, nearly every tax system in the world takes every penny earned under the tax-cut off point as untaxable. For instance, if people earning over $20,000 a year are taxed at a 20% flat rate, that means that someone who earns $21,000 a year will only be taxed on the $1000 (or $200 a year), not the full amount. Otherwise you would have rediculous situations where a person earning $20,001 would take home less than someone earning $16,500 a year.
 
This is gonna be fun and take a little while.

tetsuoxb said:
Raoul, how old are you?

28. Sorry, there goes your little theory.

I suspect that you are probably college age, and the lure of complete freedom is intoxicating.
Not to mention that most social theory, especially post-modernism and deconstructionism, are mired in the pits of Das Kapital. Basically, major liberal arts and research universities predicate that Karl Marx was right. History has proven this wrong.

Yeah, except for the fact that I went to a pretty conservative Southern college for two years(Young Harris).

Not to mention that "what you would do with the world" directly clashes with anarcho-syndicalism.

Someone needs to go back and read what I wrote. Ideally, anarcho-syndicalism. Realistically, the things I listed.

Consider that the massive social programs you would adminster would lead to a further intrusion and expansion of government. 20K tax on non-essential trucks and vans and SUVs... well, who would determine this? A government.

The creation of a vast welfare state creates a society of people dependant on government, and your stated perfect world is the exact opposite.

Yeah, and the reduction in government services that started with Reagan and continues to this day has done wonders for people's dependency on the government. Why, look at New Orleans, where people were physically unable to leave a city that was soon going to be a major national disaster area. Or the vast amounts of people living below the poverty level who continue to make use of those programs until they are punted off. You're soooo right.

Not to mention that Ralph Nader is a complete goofball. Have you seen him speak in person. It was absolutely ridiculous some of the stuff spewing from his mouth. Ideas like a 90% reduction in military spending (hello, constitution states in the preamble that providing for the common defense is central to the concept of government in the US... you can't just stop) ect. It was absolutely infeasible, and discounts various important points.

Not only have I heard Ralph speak, we had a nice twenty minute or so discussion concerning civil disobedience and the right to bear arms. And while reducing our military spending by 90% might be unreasonable even to me, the idea of turning our swords to plowshares most certainly is not. By the way, can I have a link to the 90% figure? During his last campaign for President, Ralph was advocating reducing spending by about 40% and forcing the military to manage it's money better, if I recall correctly. But then again, I have heard him speak. Perhaps you have not.

For instance, if you eliminate military spending, what happens to all the people employed in the military-industrial complex? Lots of not rich people work there you know. Unionized little socialists making bombs expensive bombs. Kinda fucks with your world view huh?

See, this is where your blessed free market comes into play. If there is no longer a demand for a particular supply, then these companies(which tend to be parts of much bigger conglomerates) will provide supplies that are in demand. Like disaster relief, maybe.

Basically, I think you view the world in much too simple terms, and the idea that you have a "Bullshit detector" is absolutely false. Your ideas, and the contridictions implied within, are evidence of a lack of a "bullshit detector".

Basically, I think you don't know me aside from what I type on a videogame message board on the internet. And my bullshit detector works well enough to have sniffed you out on your misrepresentation of Ralph's plans for the military. Speaking of ideas and contradictions, what would you say about a government that advocates massive debt spending but still has the balls to pay lip service to the notion of fiscal responsibility? Or a compassionate conservative playing golf while people drowned to death on his watch? Yeah, I can play this game too, sparky, except that I can point to concrete examples while you can only cite hypotheticals because the things I advocate aren't ever going to be enacted.

I suggest you move to Venezuela. Hugo Chavez is establishing a nice little socialist state there, by taking land from foreign land owners, redistributing wealth, and generally pissing off the middle class.

I suggest you move to Italy, birthplace of fascism. Have a wonderful day!
 
Not to mention that most social theory, especially post-modernism and deconstructionism, are mired in the pits of Das Kapital.

Uh, do you know what those words mean? Postmodernism, as a school of critical theory, has nothing to do with politics or economics. Derrida's tool, deconstruction, can by aimed at politics and economics, but he certainly didn't encourage people to use it for that more than he did otehr targets.

Postmodernism, as far as I'm concerned, is rooted in positivism, the foundations of logic, and some of the messier bits of linguistic theory.
 
Thraktor said:
Nope, nearly every tax system in the world takes every penny earned under the tax-cut off point as untaxable. For instance, if people earning over $20,000 a year are taxed at a 20% flat rate, that means that someone who earns $21,000 a year will only be taxed on the $1000 (or $200 a year), not the full amount. Otherwise you would have rediculous situations where a person earning $20,001 would take home less than someone earning $16,500 a year.
I fully understand what you're saying, which is why I said "a straight flat tax rate system." Such a system has no "tax-cut off point." That's why no one seriously advocates a straight flat tax system, and why everyone opposed to even a sane flat tax uses a straight flat tax as their punching bag instead of the real proposal.
 
Fair enough, but then why did you use the qualifier "slightly above the poverty line"? I took this as to indicate that this would be different under a flat-tax system than someone slightly under the poverty line. Perhaps a better way of putting it would have been "at or below the poverty line"? Anyway, point taken, and I agree with you, like pretty much everyone else, that there must be some minimum amount of income to get into the tax backet, I would just consider it implied in pretty much any taxation plan.
 
whytemyke said:
Can we finally disperse with this idea that most of the rich people earned what they have by being sooo skilled? Most of the money is old money in that it's been in certain families forever. The idea that people think Bill Gates deserves to be worth $51 billion is ludicrous. Without the lower levels of society, the higher levels cannot exist. It only makes sense to the rich, furthermore, to lower the taxes for the poor and increase their own taxes. If you're a rich business owner, it does you no good to live in a society where your entire market is hampered by taxes. So you take their burden of taxes, knowing that most likely they're going to reinvest their saved money into markets... most likely your own.

Great incentive to work hard.. you poor? Don't worry, some rich asshole will foot your bill. He deserves it for being successful.
 
-Highly tax the wealthier members of society/corporations.

Hmm, makes sense. In fact, lets go a step further and send these same people to prison for a minimum of 10 years. Money that would normally be awarded to them would be divided equally and dispersed to welfare offices across the country.

Word.
 
White Man said:
Uh, do you know what those words mean? Postmodernism, as a school of critical theory, has nothing to do with politics or economics. Derrida's tool, deconstruction, can by aimed at politics and economics, but he certainly didn't encourage people to use it for that more than he did otehr targets.

Postmodernism, as far as I'm concerned, is rooted in positivism, the foundations of logic, and some of the messier bits of linguistic theory.

Yes, I know what they mean. I am not speaking to their usage in politics or economics. I am speaking to how they are used in college liberal arts classes for social critique, the the ramifications it has on the personal politics of those involved.

Basically, all good literary analysis this day has a predisposition to marxism, for whatever reason that may be. Just as any good literary analysis or social critique of the east by the west is going to be rooted in Orientalism.
 
Raoul Duke said:
This is gonna be fun and take a little while.



28. Sorry, there goes your little theory.

Yep. It also makes you a bit sillier than I thought you would be.


Yeah, except for the fact that I went to a pretty conservative Southern college for two years(Young Harris).

It has nothing to do with conservative or liberal schools... it has to do with the academic nature of modern liberal arts study. It is all littered with code words for marxism, etc. Maybe I just a bit biased because Japanese literature and history (my fields) are populated by academics born or raised during the occupation, and their social slant slides very far to the left. For instance, one of the accepted masters of Japanese history, Mikiso Hane, is a hardcore marxist, and it comes through in his history text. Modern study of a liberal arts discipline is filled with reading people who are absolutely convinced that Marxism was right. History, as I have said, has proven otherwise.

Someone needs to go back and read what I wrote. Ideally, anarcho-syndicalism. Realistically, the things I listed.

That is fair, especially in the way I worded my statement. However, my point remains in that what you would do now is the absolute opposite of what you would do ideally.

Its like saying "ideally, I would never eat any meat at all, but since this isn't an ideal world let me eat huge steaks every meal".... why even bother holding an ideal if any realistic implementation is right out the window.

Yeah, and the reduction in government services that started with Reagan and continues to this day has done wonders for people's dependency on the government. Why, look at New Orleans, where people were physically unable to leave a city that was soon going to be a major national disaster area. Or the vast amounts of people living below the poverty level who continue to make use of those programs until they are punted off. You're soooo right.

Again, I am talking about the hypocrisy of your ideal world with what you would actually do. You are going in both directions at once.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchosyndicalism

How are your ideas working towards any of the points listed there? I know ideal world/real world... but it is so damn hypocritical I cant take you seriously. Im not even getting into how absolutely morally paranoid and outright bankrupt Anarco-syndicalism is.

Furthermore, the idea that using social programs to eliminate poverty would ever work, as gone over in my second post, was completely ignored. Once you hit equilibrium.... Game Over, Yeaaaaaahhhhhhh.

Not only have I heard Ralph speak, we had a nice twenty minute or so discussion concerning civil disobedience and the right to bear arms. And while reducing our military spending by 90% might be unreasonable even to me, the idea of turning our swords to plowshares most certainly is not. By the way, can I have a link to the 90% figure? During his last campaign for President, Ralph was advocating reducing spending by about 40% and forcing the military to manage it's money better, if I recall correctly. But then again, I have heard him speak. Perhaps you have not.

I heard him speak to 2000 people at University of Florida in 2000. Next time you see him, you can thank him for convincing a good portion of that room to vote for him with his bullshit. You can also thank him for our current president. Finally, could you ask him to return the two hours of my time he wasted. He is a cook. As a consumer advocate, he may be effective because of his persistence. But when it comes to political science, he is glaringly uneffective. You are right about 90%... I was pulling that from memory... but even the 40% figure is an atrocious oversimplification of the role he would have has president to provide for the common defense.

See, this is where your blessed free market comes into play. If there is no longer a demand for a particular supply, then these companies(which tend to be parts of much bigger conglomerates) will provide supplies that are in demand. Like disaster relief, maybe.

Yes, because enormous entrenched corporations are known for being able to rapidly shift their production lines to other products, while maintaining their worker ranks, and not absolutely destroying the economy. And a destroyed economy would do wonders for the poor, don't you think?

Basically, I think you don't know me aside from what I type on a videogame message board on the internet. And my bullshit detector works well enough to have sniffed you out on your misrepresentation of Ralph's plans for the military. Speaking of ideas and contradictions, what would you say about a government that advocates massive debt spending but still has the balls to pay lip service to the notion of fiscal responsibility? Or a compassionate conservative playing golf while people drowned to death on his watch? Yeah, I can play this game too, sparky, except that I can point to concrete examples while you can only cite hypotheticals because the things I advocate aren't ever going to be enacted.

You aren't playing the same game. I specifically avoided making references to the current government because what I feel about their policies are mutually exclusive from how flawed your theories are. You can hate Bush, hate republicanism, hate everything about America.... and your theories are still on weak ground. You could love them all, and your theories are on weak ground.

However, personally, if you ask me about what I think about debt spending (and I am not going to get into the "lip service". That is for you to clear up with your government in the ballot box. I will only cover what I think of debt spending) I do not think it is a terrible idea. Granted, the massive debt we are carrying as a country is ultimately a bad thing, but that ultimate conclusion is such a distant possibility that it is moot. (I.e. the idea that one day everything will have to be paid) The Global economy operates on the assumption of American debt, and more importantly American payment of debt. Furthermore, if you are familiar with Alexander Hamilton, you will know that national debt has been an integral part of the American experience since it began. As long as we can afford the interest payments, and our bond ratings as a country stay high, an America with debt is a safe and stable investment for the world. So adding debt isnt a bad thing, and dont even begin to dream it would disappear in an age of huge social programs like you propose.

I suggest you move to Italy, birthplace of fascism. Have a wonderful day!

Actually, I said nothing advocating fascism, so your pettiness is quite interesting, if not entirely unexpected. You are clearly a socialist, and a move to Venezuela (where members of my family have been shot at during protest against Chavez) might open you eyes a little. Frankly, I find your avatar absolutely disgusting, and I think you would too, if you ever saw Hugo in motion. I am surprised that you like him, considering he is a militarist.
 
I'm an unabashed socialist. A socialist economy turns this entire country into a business machine. We have more than enough resources to sustain our civilians, save for oil. And we could stop subsidizing farms that underproduce. We could use the extra output to export. We could eliminate the slop in the industrial system by heavily mechanizing everything. The only reason auto plants aren't all machines are unions. Hell, you don't really need humans to do any real physical labor, we could get machines to do a lot of that stuff and have humans handling more service-type jobs. Our costs for goods would plummet through increased efficiency. Machines making machines eliminates a lot of the materials costs for metals and plastics and stuff. And they handle assembly, so infrastructure costs won't be high, and since machines don't need to sleep, efficiency and productivity should go through the roof.

Everyone making the same eliminates a motivator for work, but you use hours to compensate. People will work jobs they like, or are actually good at, b/c the need to get to some higher rank, just for the cash will be eliminated. We can just adjust hours so that a janitor's job (which could be replaced by machines) that only takes 10 hours a week is as attractive as a service phone job that takes 20 hours a week. That basic concept. The patent office is torched and burned to the ground, freeing up innovation, which has been stymied for decades. People pay cost for everything, and as long as we can produce enough of them (just order 300M of everything lol), the ever-increasing efficiency through economies of scale allow the average income (determined by GDP and revenue from export, which should be HUGE) to stretch a long way. Imagine living like a millionaire...everyone living like one.

Meh, these are my pie-in-the-sky dreams. And not very well fleshed out, since I'm kinda groggy right now. But thought I'd throw it in here since I'm a socialist to the core. I have the inequality of capitalism. I think it's a shitty system driven by the worst human instinct, greed. And used to enslave a majority of the world to an elite few who earn the wealth to enjoy the fruits of many broken backs. It's a system that's incredibly inefficient far beyond the worst images of communism. I think communist regimes have done more to kill the socialist dream than capitalists though. Widescale corruption and oppression ruined what was an ideal, and warped it into a iron fist that was used to control millions. But I see the great benefits of a socialist system. Things we try to mimic with free trade agreements and subsidies are automatic in a socialist economy. I think there's an infrastructure cost inherent in socialism though, and it's the need to build a closed, self-sustaining system. We have that already. So once you have a system that can sustain itself, you can crank up the output in various areas of the machine to generate profit.

Right now, though, our biggest cash sinks are all socialist systems. FICA and the military are inherently socialist, and highly inefficient. Not because they can't work on their own, but b/c they are tied to a capitalist system that inflates and alters costs way out of wack with reality. The defense contractors, for instance, take the military to the cleaners. A plane isn't all that expensive in materials and man hours. But when you are paying engineers a small fortune, and paying all these individual parts vendors for one-off parts and so on, your costs add up fast. In a socialist economy, it's all contained, so you pay the cents on the dollar it costs to make a silicon chip. I mean, FFS, it's silicon. It's not like we're forging fucking diamonds out of entire mountains or anything. Sand isn't exactly scarce. But whatever. I'm rambling. I should eat something. PEACE.
 
+1 tetsuoxb. Eloquent posts on an impossibly broad topic.

All hail the new Count of Concision! Now with real* concision!

*No offense to the previous, also-eloquent-but-ironically-titled title holder. :D
 
Thraktor said:
Fair enough, but then why did you use the qualifier "slightly above the poverty line"? I took this as to indicate that this would be different under a flat-tax system than someone slightly under the poverty line.
So that my example would be of someone who paid $0 in taxes under the current system.

Thraktor said:
Anyway, point taken, and I agree with you, like pretty much everyone else, that there must be some minimum amount of income to get into the tax backet, I would just consider it implied in pretty much any taxation plan.
Agreed. One of the underlying currents to my comment, however, was to point out that the opposition of a flat tax don't attack the plan as it's implied, they attack a straight flat tax plan. Look closely at arguments against it, you'll find that the logic driving the rhetoric is clearly based on a flat tax with no income floor/personal deduction.
 
catfish said:
I only understood half of that shit, but I'm pretty sure somebody got owned on a message board on the internet.

Since this post contains no content now, I will say this. Fuck robert mugabe. that guy kills white people and/or takes their land to give land to black people. history has proven time and again that hardcore racism is bad. The UN should look harder at Zimbabwe.

This thread's absurd and tetsuoxb is bringing this discussion to a realistic conclusion. I have nothing against Raoul, but I've never taken his socialist propaganda seriously (or anyone else's) because it's a dead end as testuo, and history books, note. Capitalism has its faults, but I feel like I'm in a preliminary philosophy class where that Objectivst purist or born again devout Christian raises his hand and begins espousing empty rhetoric.
 
McMoron said:
Great incentive to work hard.. you poor? Don't worry, some rich asshole will foot your bill. He deserves it for being successful.
I've made it a point to ignore every post you've ever made, because I have yet to read anything that you've written which has been worthwhile yet. This post of yours doesn't break the mold, but I can see other people, who might wish to one day become enlightened, thinking this same way... so here we go.

You're assuming when you say something about hwo class difference provides work incentive, that the lower classes are lazy, stupid, or somehow 'weaker' workers than those in the upper echelons of society. THe problem with this type of logic is, though, that anyone who's stepped foot out of suburbia and talked with people of different backgrounds-- both economic and cultural-- has undoubtedly realized that there are quite a few people who are poor but bust their ass. There are also quite a few people who are rich and don't bust their asses. same with intelligence... most of the smartest people in the country, or even world, aren't paid as well as those who run everything. Why? Well, to avoid a whole lecture in socioeconomic conflict, lets just say it takes money to make money and you can't gain capital unless you have capital to begin with, for the most part.

I understand it isn't fair, but neither is it fair for some 18 year old kid from Detroit not to be able to go to school because he has to take care of his brothers and sisters. There are tons of examples of unfairness everywhere you turn, so the best you can do (and I'm REALLY not going into why the psychological risks of disabling the lower class is more dangerous than anything else) is make it so that while you're being unfair, the least amount of people are getting fucked by it. I really do sympathize with every millionaire who can't get the Caesar's Package in Vegas three times a year instead of two because of their high burden of tax and supporting the poor people... but I'm more than sure that those people going to vegas would be far worse off if they were suddenly forced to provide for themselves without the lower echelons of society doing their dirty work.
 
Pimpwerx said:
I'm an unabashed socialist. A socialist economy turns this entire country into ....

Socialism is the attempt by more moderate communists to harness the power of the market economy under the influence of the state and to reconcile the abject failure of communism as an economic system since a controlled economy only produces perpetual shortages, and actually destroys standard of living in the name of equality.

You appear to have confused socialism with pure communism. All capitalist governments in the world have socialist features and it varies accross countries. These socialist features are usually government owned corporations or government controlled sectors that are run like for profit businesses.

I'm not ideologically opposed to socialist features inside capitalist economies since in many respects, government control over key sectors have clear benefits to the population. And that's the point of state control. It's not about ideologies, the government is there to benefit the people. Things like socialized health systems tend to provide equal care to everyone, which benefits everyone, except for the wealthy who can pay for even better care with their own money and are unhappy with receiving what everyone else is getting. But that's for another discussion.

I think many on the left are really in denial that capitalism, or in other words, a market economy has won and it will continue to win the ideological struggle. It is quite simply, the more dominant of the two ideological systems. While all economic systems with have elements of state control, the dream of a communist economy, or a communal economy in the form of state ownership and control is as far from reality as ever. Lunatics like Huge Chavez may try for a while, but a quick glance at the countries that really matter, mainly the US, Japan, China and even the communist infested continent of Europe tells a different story.

tesuo said:
It has nothing to do with conservative or liberal schools... it has to do with the academic nature of modern liberal arts study. It is all littered with code words for marxism, etc. Maybe I just a bit biased because Japanese literature and history (my fields) are populated by academics born or raised during the occupation, and their social slant slides very far to the left. For instance, one of the accepted masters of Japanese history, Mikiso Hane, is a hardcore marxist, and it comes through in his history text. Modern study of a liberal arts discipline is filled with reading people who are absolutely convinced that Marxism was right. History, as I have said, has proven otherwise.

As much as I hate to give points to hard-core rightwing campus groups and hard-core pro-Israeli groups who make similar claims about left wing bias of arts departments, I have to agree with you. Sites like CampusWatch keep a running watch on professors who have extreme pro-left biases and as a univeristy student until recently, I can vouch for it as well. Every f'ing class I took in the arts or history department, whether it was Canadian history, Film History, always had a leftist marxist slant. Some classes are more hardcore than others, but even my non-political friends got tired of the bullshit marxism and finished their studies in technical institutes instead to "learn something that is actually useful."
 
Deku said:
Socialism is the attempt by more moderate communists to harness the power of the market economy under the influence of the state and to reconcile the abject failure of communism as an economic system since a controlled economy only produces perpetual shortages, and actually destroys standard of living in the name of equality.

You appear to have confused socialism with pure communism. All capitalist governments in the world have socialist features and it varies accross countries. These socialist features are usually government owned corporations or government controlled sectors that are run like for profit businesses.

I'm not ideologically opposed to socialist features inside capitalist economies since in many respects, government control over key sectors have clear benefits to the population. And that's the point of state control. It's not about ideologies, the government is there to benefit the people. Things like socialized health systems tend to provide equal care to everyone, which benefits everyone, except for the wealthy who can pay for even better care with their own money and are unhappy with receiving what everyone else is getting. But that's for another discussion.

I think many on the left are really in denial that capitalism, or in other words, a market economy has won and it will continue to win the ideological struggle. It is quite simply, the more dominant of the two ideological systems. While all economic systems with have elements of state control, the dream of a communist economy, or a communal economy in the form of state ownership and control is as far from reality as ever. Lunatics like Huge Chavez may try for a while, but a quick glance at the countries that really matter, mainly the US, Japan, China and even the communist infested continent of Europe tells a different story.
I'm not confused, nor in denial. But I am also not about to assume that capitalism has won b/c it is the better system. Capitalism has won b/c it preys on people's baser instinct, greed. You tell people they have a chance to be rich and powerful, and they will take that option over one that could actually be more beneficial for them and those around them. And socialism has been painted in such a negative light for so long that people have this perception, like you, that it leads to shortages and inefficiencies. These are planning issues. A well-constructed plan can overcome these problems by offering flexibility in the production model, and allocating an appropriate amount of resources where needed. Hell, make it a credit system where everyone gets a certain number of credits, then plan your resource allocations based on prior trends with proper future-proofing. Not perfect, but there's nothing a capitalist system does that a socialist one can't.

The American dream is simply that. More people stay middling to poor than get rich. The mean can and will be much higher in a stable socialist system than in a capitalist one, b/c you don't have market fluctuations creating these inequalities. There's a reason free markets need to be constantly regulated, and it's b/c they will spin horribly out of control if not. Instead we tax and interest various things to try and balance the equation, but it never, ever balances. An inefficient system at best. A horrible form of enslavement at worst.

Look at the military if you want to see a socialist system that doesn't have the shortages you speak of. It's simple ridiculously inefficient b/c you get none of the benefits of socialism. You have 3M or so people living in a fully subsidized subcommunity. Food, board, living expensese, everything is subsidized. And they have money on top of that for war machines. But the problem is that the military must still acquire its good/resources from a capitalist system that inflates costs artificially, leading to immense amounts of waste. Yet defense has still somehow hijacked an ever-growing portion of our budget. No one calls the military communist, but when you look at it, that's pretty much what it is.

IMO, socialism gets painted with the brush the USSR used. It gets labeled as a losing option before any attempt is ever given to working out the kinks. The problem is planning. You build a good model like you would for a military or a company. You allocate resources based on materials and man hours and expected revenue from export. With the amount of slop in the current system, there's no reason, IMO, that the US couldn't become a very efficient business machine where the average man lives like a king. But doing so diminishes the power, wealth and control the upper class have over the common man, and they are the ones who continue to run this country. I think a move to service-side employment built on a strong industrial backbone built on technology (basically shifting manpower around to increase productivity and efficiency) would easily work. Getting people who have been born and bred to view this equality as an evil, otoh...is the toughest battle. PEACE.
 
pnjtony said:
Yeah, I just don't have the incentive to make over $100,000 a yeah. They keep offering and I keep denying.

Well, in the new utopia you could tax that incentive for the people who don't have it. WUNDERBAR!

Pimpwerx said:
The problem is planning.

That is indeed the problem with socialism.
 
But I am also not about to assume that capitalism has won b/c it is the better system. Capitalism has won b/c it preys on people's baser instinct, greed.
Arguable. Classical economists who created the study of economics simply observed human behavior of how people behaved in an economy and how production is allocated and prices are determined. It has nothing to do with a socialist or capitalist agenda since their study predated both terms. They came to the conclusion, a right one, that the market economy is the most effective means of generating wealth. And no one has yet been able to prove them wrong.

IMO, socialism gets painted with the brush the USSR used. It gets labeled as a losing option before any attempt is ever given to working out the kinks. The problem is planning..

Maybe you're not as insane as I thought. You nailed it in the head. THE PROBLEM IS PLANNING. Also collecting enough information to make THE RIGHT PLAN.

An economy is simply too big and too complicated to plan correctly. Nothing is more effecient than the market. No plan in the world can replace the market.

And no, socialism is not state planning, socialism uses elements of the market economy under state control. The only problem is, if you have too many sectors under state control, the economy becomes quasi communist and suffers the same problems, since governments in a state controlled market economy become the sole owners of corporations and they will allocate money and capital ineffectively.

The western capitalist model of limited socialism, that is, governments being involved as nominal investors in the economy, or in other words one of many hundreds and thousands of major investors in the economy is something else entirely. Governments can still allocate funds to certain industries, but the market itself is free to operate and move capital to the more efficient industries. Government influence in the economy is limited. It is only one of many players.

You're right though, the problem is planning and you'll never make a plan as good as the mob can create with a market, and they don't even have to get together to decide on how to run the economy. Prices and production just happen.
 
tetsuoxb said:
Yep. It also makes you a bit sillier than I thought you would be.

Why? Because I'm a grown man and don't rimjob capitalism?


It has nothing to do with conservative or liberal schools... it has to do with the academic nature of modern liberal arts study. It is all littered with code words for marxism, etc. Maybe I just a bit biased because Japanese literature and history (my fields) are populated by academics born or raised during the occupation, and their social slant slides very far to the left. For instance, one of the accepted masters of Japanese history, Mikiso Hane, is a hardcore marxist, and it comes through in his history text. Modern study of a liberal arts discipline is filled with reading people who are absolutely convinced that Marxism was right. History, as I have said, has proven otherwise.

Fair enough. I for one didn't really notcie anything like that in my years of college study. Most of my reading on modern politics has occured after my college education, so it wouldn't be informed by the hideous liberal/red/gay bias that apparently infests college campuses in the US.

That is fair, especially in the way I worded my statement. However, my point remains in that what you would do now is the absolute opposite of what you would do ideally.

Its like saying "ideally, I would never eat any meat at all, but since this isn't an ideal world let me eat huge steaks every meal".... why even bother holding an ideal if any realistic implementation is right out the window.

I really don't think it's that hard to grasp. In an ideal world, workers would control the means of production and the government would have a limited or non-existent role in people's lives. We do not, and never will live in an ideal world, much less a world that would try something like that. So my suggestions(and I know this is probably frightening for you to consider) were a nod to the reality of the situation. This may sound hypocritical, but I openly acknowledge that government is NOT going to stay out of people's lives despite the fact that in my ideal world there would be little to no need for a government. If I acknowledge this as the reality of the situation, why not try to have them do whay I perceive to be the right thing? If we have to have a government, why not have it be as responsive to the needs of the people as humanly possible?

Again, I am talking about the hypocrisy of your ideal world with what you would actually do. You are going in both directions at once.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchosyndicalism

How are your ideas working towards any of the points listed there? I know ideal world/real world... but it is so damn hypocritical I cant take you seriously. Im not even getting into how absolutely morally paranoid and outright bankrupt Anarco-syndicalism is.

I think I kind of covered the first part of these statements above. As far as anarcho-syndicalism being morally paranoid and bankrupt, tell me this:

What is so terrible about the idea that taking direct action to eliminate inequalities in wage/work situations? What is so terrible about the idea of "render unto me what is mine, and render unto Caesar what is Caesar's?" Because Paris Hilton won the gene pool lottery, she should live a life of opulence built upon other's backs while those people(many of whom are probably more intelligent and motivated) are stuck in a cycle of neverending wage slavery?

Sounds terrible, I know.

Furthermore, the idea that using social programs to eliminate poverty would ever work, as gone over in my second post, was completely ignored. Once you hit equilibrium.... Game Over, Yeaaaaaahhhhhhh.

You know, I didn't read your second post until just now. I would like to reply to it point by point as well, and maybe I will at some point. As it is I think that this thread is already stupid and overly long.

That said, the world we live in today may reject the idea of equilibrium. But the gap between the poorest in the world and the moderately well off, to say nothing of the richest, is sickening and is going in the opposite direction it should be going in IMO.

I'm going to make some concessions right now. Jesus, this is like "Poke the Socialist With a Stick" Day or something. For the society we live in today to work properly, lots of either boring or unpleasant tasks need to be performed. We can't all be rockstars. There must be sewer scrubbers, trash men, and various other dirty jobs must be performed too. I'm not unaware of that. We also have to wear clothes and own clock radios.

No one should have to earn a shitty wage to do those things. Period. But that's the world we live in now. It's wrong, and nothing you can say will convince me that if the government is going to exist, it should do more to provide for the people at the lower end of the spectrum. Child care so they can work and not have to worry about their kids. A living wage so the jobs they do will provide for their families, and they won't have to work eighty hour weeks to try and keep up. Health care so they can take care of any issues that come up. An opportunity to educate yourself in an attempt to better your life.

Again, doesn't that just sound TERRIBLE? I mean, those people should be glad to work shitty jobs at shitty wages with lots of kids who have to be taken care of and various illnesses and no time to fully develop the ability to read or do long division. They should be glad they live in America. RIGHT?

I heard him speak to 2000 people at University of Florida in 2000. Next time you see him, you can thank him for convincing a good portion of that room to vote for him with his bullshit. You can also thank him for our current president. Finally, could you ask him to return the two hours of my time he wasted. He is a cook. As a consumer advocate, he may be effective because of his persistence. But when it comes to political science, he is glaringly uneffective. You are right about 90%... I was pulling that from memory... but even the 40% figure is an atrocious oversimplification of the role he would have has president to provide for the common defense.

Oh ho, the old "It's Ralph's fault" bullshit. You know what buddy? If the Democratic Party and Al Gore wanted our votes, they should have fucking done a better job of espousing the issues we care about. But since we want to play the "Blame Game", how about the five Supreme Court Justices that voted against counting all of the votes? Or what about blaming Al Gore for not winning any of the debates when most certainly could have torn that goofy sonfabitch a new Tejas sized asshole? Or for not winning his home state or Clinton's home state? Or you could blame the 622 people in Florida who voted for David McReynolds of the Socialist Party, maybe the 562 who voted for James Harris of the Socialist Worker's Party, or even the 1804 voters who pulled the lever or punched a chad for Monica Moorehead of the Workers World Party. Somewhere in there, you could probably find 538 people who would have changed their vote if they knew it was going to make a difference. Maybe not. Leftists tend to have principles, even if you think they're warped.

Yes, because enormous entrenched corporations are known for being able to rapidly shift their production lines to other products, while maintaining their worker ranks, and not absolutely destroying the economy. And a destroyed economy would do wonders for the poor, don't you think?

Ok, so maybe you're right about this one. It sure would suck if another country started buying up all of the shit they sell. That's why we should just arrest all of them and throw them into the Superdome to rot. Yeah, don't they keep their headquarters for the most part on our soil? I think things could get interesting if they wanted to sell shit to other countries.

You aren't playing the same game. I specifically avoided making references to the current government because what I feel about their policies are mutually exclusive from how flawed your theories are. You can hate Bush, hate republicanism, hate everything about America.... and your theories are still on weak ground. You could love them all, and your theories are on weak ground.

You and I are never going to see eye to eye on these issues. You think my theories are flawed- I think that a totally free market is an amoral abomination(and globalism bears this out in my opinion). You're free to think I'm stupid for thinking what I think and I'm free to think that you're an asshole for not wanting to spend money on the poorest part of society. Fair trade?

However, personally, if you ask me about what I think about debt spending (and I am not going to get into the "lip service". That is for you to clear up with your government in the ballot box. I will only cover what I think of debt spending) I do not think it is a terrible idea. Granted, the massive debt we are carrying as a country is ultimately a bad thing, but that ultimate conclusion is such a distant possibility that it is moot. (I.e. the idea that one day everything will have to be paid) The Global economy operates on the assumption of American debt, and more importantly American payment of debt. Furthermore, if you are familiar with Alexander Hamilton, you will know that national debt has been an integral part of the American experience since it began. As long as we can afford the interest payments, and our bond ratings as a country stay high, an America with debt is a safe and stable investment for the world. So adding debt isnt a bad thing, and dont even begin to dream it would disappear in an age of huge social programs like you propose.

Debt spending in general may not be bad, but the spending we are doing to accrue all of that debt is what is revolting to me. Ok, I also admit that I have a personal problem with the idea of debt, as my father owes nearly 200,000 in back taxes to the IRS. Keeping my balance in the black is a religous part of my life, and I never will own a credit card again. Feel free to think I'm stupid for this too! I know you already do.

Actually, I said nothing advocating fascism, so your pettiness is quite interesting, if not entirely unexpected. You are clearly a socialist, and a move to Venezuela (where members of my family have been shot at during protest against Chavez) might open you eyes a little. Frankly, I find your avatar absolutely disgusting, and I think you would too, if you ever saw Hugo in motion. I am surprised that you like him, considering he is a militarist.

I approve of Hugo Chavez and am remarkably well informed on what he does. He's a fucking hero. I am sorry that members of your family have been shot at, perhaps they should choose their side with their hearts instead of their wallets next time. Taking land from wealthy ranchers who have let it go fallow with no one to work it and giving it to the indigent is absolutely terrible. Oh, and nationalizing the oil production so the people of Venezuela will see the profits as opposed to the foreign corporations and a tiny slice of the economic elite of the country, that's fucking reprehensible. Again: Fucking Hero.

As far as me being a socialist, well I am certainly not a believer in Capitalistic doctrine or the Neo-liberal global horseshit theories that are currently ruining the world today. So if that makes me a socialist, I shall revel in that label.
 
whytemyke said:
I've made it a point to ignore every post you've ever made, because I have yet to read anything that you've written which has been worthwhile yet. This post of yours doesn't break the mold, but I can see other people, who might wish to one day become enlightened, thinking this same way... so here we go.

tears fall down on my keyboard now.

You're assuming when you say something about hwo class difference provides work incentive, that the lower classes are lazy, stupid, or somehow 'weaker' workers than those in the upper echelons of society.

Of course the rich would't exist without poor people below them. Do you think it would be better if no one had the money to start a company so that poor people can get a damn job in the first place?

THe problem with this type of logic is, though, that anyone who's stepped foot out of suburbia and talked with people of different backgrounds-- both economic and cultural-- has undoubtedly realized that there are quite a few people who are poor but bust their ass.

And there are quite a few of them who are lazy too. Your work rate doesn't give anyone the right to tax the shit out of successful people.

There are also quite a few people who are rich and don't bust their asses. same with intelligence... most of the smartest people in the country, or even world, aren't paid as well as those who run everything. Why? Well, to avoid a whole lecture in socioeconomic conflict, lets just say it takes money to make money and you can't gain capital unless you have capital to begin with, for the most part.

And there are quite a few who DO bust their asses off. Namely small business owners. It wasn't Bill Gates that turned a hole-in-the-wall nobody into a billion dollar company. No, it was the guy who operated the CD pressing machine who earned the billions. It wasn't Carlos Ghosn that turned Nissan from a near death zombie like state into a sales number breaking profit making company again. It was the assemblyline workers.

It takes capital to start a business but if the business fails who loses the most? They risk the most and if they succeed, gain the most. WOW, what a CONCEPT. SHOCK AND AWE!

I understand it isn't fair, but neither is it fair for some 18 year old kid from Detroit not to be able to go to school because he has to take care of his brothers and sisters. There are tons of examples of unfairness everywhere you turn, so the best you can do (and I'm REALLY not going into why the psychological risks of disabling the lower class is more dangerous than anything else) is make it so that while you're being unfair, the least amount of people are getting fucked by it. I really do sympathize with every millionaire who can't get the Caesar's Package in Vegas three times a year instead of two because of their high burden of tax and supporting the poor people... but I'm more than sure that those people going to vegas would be far worse off if they were suddenly forced to provide for themselves without the lower echelons of society doing their dirty work.


Didn't you know? All us rich folks got here not by hardwork and success.. no we're living in our McMansions because WE'RE LAZY. Not only that, but we also light our cigars with hundred dollar bills and drive solid gold rocket cars to work where we just play golf in our exexcutive office while our McSlaves make us rich.
 
Raoul Duke said:
No, I am inherently stupid because I don't like Capitalism. Apparently.

Stupid is too harsh. I think you're inherently naive for embracing a dictator who would happily shoot you for disagreeing with him and I suspect testuo is right for pointing out that if you were to actually get to know Chavez, you'd have more than a few minor disagreements with him on several basic ideological issues. I guess embracing Chevez is the cool thing for some on the extreme left to rile up the conservatives and stick it to the establishment by supporting the very anti-thesis and soon to be sworn enemy of capitalism.

But you're are setting youself up for a fall when Chevez is revealed to have feet of clay and have dictatorial anti-democratic ambitions and his democratically elected mandate becomes a footnote in history as a grand political ploy to gain power like all dictators have done in the past before they turned the government into their own little playground.
 
The real problem with over taxing the rich is that they'll end up fleeing the country.

Gotta find that equilibrium where you tax them hard enough to get a good amount, but not enough that they no longer consider the rest of the pull of been in the country worthwhile.

Seriously though, at the super upper ends... the 5million PA earners, its not their talent or whatever thats making their money. They're not doing 500 times as much as another person. Their effect might be so, but then the president makes 200 or so k per annum and his effect is far larger than any other individual in the US. Moreover, the people that have pushed forward history haven't necessarily been compensated financially for their efforts... so ruling out the idea that they the super rich are rewarded meritably, the real fact is that they owe their success to some amount of luck , and dealing with larger numbers than most other could concieve off.

So, although its fair that some of them do deserve their riches, the vast majority of them probably don't. Moreover, the riches that they do deserve are still considered incredibly abundant wealth for any normal person. It's only when you get to that level does your perception become twisted and you start thinking of your success in hundreds of millions or billions of dollars.
So then... tax the super rich harder. As hard as possible, balancing the threshold of the attractiveness of the country's economy against the taxrate of been a capital owner in the country.

Finally, you don't simply just throw the money gained back to poor people as welfare (although the US does need a more stable welfare system), you plow it into programs and efforts to better the conditions of the country's baseline... increase their eductaion, social conciousness, etc, etc, etc.

There's still massive advancements in society to be made, and not just in terms of technological progress. Effectively extracting money from the populace, for the populace and as such the overall fortune of the nation is just one facet of it.
 
Originally Posted by Raoul Duke:
This is gonna be fun and take a little while.



28. Sorry, there goes your little theory.




Yep. It also makes you a bit sillier than I thought you would be.

What I've learned from this thread, by Forgottentaco

I learned that growing up means you stop carring about people. Fuck the poor and the hungry, I require Tax Breaks.
 
How poor is poor...

how-poor-is-poor-01.jpg


how-poor-is-poor-03.jpg


how-poor-is-poor.png


...when these people can afford satellite television for their shacks on welfare?

These people get so many subsidies, grants and other crap already that it is disgusting. This is a country of endless opportunity, but what incentive is there for these people to better their standard of living when they have come to expect the state as well as the government to provide everything for them?

I wish I had my camera last year when I was helping to hand out turkeys and other stuff to the needy on Thanksgiving. There were "poor" teen mothers chatting away on their cellphones in line. They demanded to have the male volunteers help carry the donations out to their brand new cars that subsidies had provided for them.

The problem isn't that we aren't providing enough money to these people, but that we are creating dependency upon both the state and government for that money.
 
I finally caught up to Paul Graham's essays of late, and ironically enough, his last one touches on the subject. It's fairly long, so be warned. The full essay can be found here, complete with footnotes.

August 2005

(This essay is derived from a talk at Defcon 2005.)

Suppose you wanted to get rid of economic inequality. There are two ways to do it: give money to the poor, or take it away from the rich. But they amount to the same thing, because if you want to give money to the poor, you have to get it from somewhere. You can't get it from the poor, or they just end up where they started. You have to get it from the rich.

There is of course a way to make the poor richer without simply shifting money from the rich. You could help the poor become more productive-- for example, by improving access to education. Instead of taking money from engineers and giving it to checkout clerks, you could enable people who would have become checkout clerks to become engineers.

This is an excellent strategy for making the poor richer. But the evidence of the last 200 years shows that it doesn't reduce economic inequality, because it makes the rich richer too. If there are more engineers, then there are more opportunities to hire them and to sell them things. Henry Ford couldn't have made a fortune building cars in society in which most people were still subsistence farmers; he would have had neither workers nor customers.

If you want to reduce economic inequality instead of just improving the overall standard of living, it's not enough just to raise up the poor. What if one of your newly minted engineers gets ambitious and goes on to become another Bill Gates? Economic inequality will be as bad as ever. If you actually want to compress the gap between rich and poor, you have to push down on the top as well as pushing up on the bottom.

How do you push down on the top? You could try to decrease the productivity of the people who make the most money: make the best surgeons operate with their left hands, force popular actors to overeat, and so on. But this approach is hard to implement. The only practical solution is to let people do the best work they can, and then (either by taxation or by limiting what they can charge) to confiscate whatever you deem to be surplus.

So let's be clear what reducing economic inequality means. It is identical with taking money from the rich.

When you transform a mathematical expression into another form, you often notice new things. So it is in this case. Taking money from the rich turns out to have consequences one might not foresee when one phrases the same idea in terms of "reducing inequality."

The problem is, risk and reward have to be proportionate. A bet with only a 10% chance of winning has to pay more than one with a 50% chance of winning, or no one will take it. So if you lop off the top of the possible rewards, you thereby decrease people's willingness to take risks.

Transposing into our original expression, we get: decreasing economic inequality means decreasing the risk people are willing to take.

There are whole classes of risks that are no longer worth taking if the maximum return is decreased. One reason high tax rates are disastrous is that this class of risks includes starting new companies.

Investors

Startups are intrinsically risky. A startup is like a small boat in the open sea. One big wave and you're sunk. A competing product, a downturn in the economy, a delay in getting funding or regulatory approval, a patent suit, changing technical standards, the departure of a key employee, the loss of a big account---any one of these can destroy you overnight. It seems only about 1 in 10 startups succeeds. [1]

Our startup paid its first round of outside investors 36x. Which meant, with current US tax rates, that it made sense to invest in us if we had better than a 1 in 18 chance of succeeding. That sounds about right. That's probably roughly how we looked when we were a couple of nerds with no business experience operating out of an apartment.

If that kind of risk doesn't pay, venture investing, as we know it, doesn't happen.

That might be ok if there were other sources of capital for new companies. Why not just have the government, or some large almost-government organization like Fannie Mae, do the venture investing instead of private funds?

I'll tell you why that wouldn't work. Because then you're asking government or almost-government employees to do the one thing they are least able to do: take risks.

As anyone who has worked for the government knows, the important thing is not to make the right choices, but to make choices that can be justified later if they fail. If there is a safe option, that's the one a bureaucrat will choose. But that is exactly the wrong way to do venture investing. The nature of the business means that you want to make terribly risky choices, if the upside looks good enough.

VCs are currently paid in a way that makes them focus on the upside: they get a percentage of the fund's gains. And that helps overcome their understandable fear of investing in a company run by nerds who look like (and perhaps are) college students.

If VCs weren't allowed to get rich, they'd behave like bureaucrats. Without hope of gain, they'd have only fear of loss. And so they'd make the wrong choices. They'd turn down the nerds in favor of the smooth-talking MBA in a suit, because that investment would be easier to justify later if it failed.

Founders

But even if you could somehow redesign venture funding to work without allowing VCs to become rich, there's another kind of investor you simply cannot replace: the startups' founders and early employees.

What they invest is their time and ideas. But these are equivalent to money; the proof is that investors are willing (if forced) to treat them as interchangeable, granting the same status to "sweat equity" and the equity they've purchased with cash.

The fact that you're investing time doesn't change the relationship between risk and reward. If you're going to invest your time in something with a small chance of succeeding, you'll only do it if there is a proportionately large payoff. [2] If large payoffs aren't allowed, you may as well play it safe.

Like many startup founders, I did it to get rich. But not because I wanted to buy expensive things. What I wanted was security. I wanted to make enough money that I didn't have to worry about money. If I'd been forbidden to make enough from a startup to do this, I would have sought security by some other means: for example, by going to work for a big, stable organization from which it would be hard to get fired. Instead of busting my ass in a startup, I would have tried to get a nice, low-stress job at a big research lab, or tenure at a university.

That's what everyone does in societies where risk isn't rewarded. If you can't ensure your own security, the next best thing is to make a nest for yourself in some large organization where your status depends mostly on seniority. [3]

Even if we could somehow replace investors, I don't see how we could replace founders. Investors mainly contribute money, which in principle is the same no matter what the source. But the founders contribute ideas. You can't replace those.

Let's rehearse the chain of argument so far. I'm heading for a conclusion to which many readers will have to be dragged kicking and screaming, so I've tried to make each link unbreakable. Decreasing economic inequality means taking money from the rich. Since risk and reward are equivalent, decreasing potential rewards automatically decreases people's appetite for risk. Startups are intrinsically risky. Without the prospect of rewards proportionate to the risk, founders will not invest their time in a startup. Founders are irreplaceable. So eliminating economic inequality means eliminating startups.

Economic inequality is not just a consequence of startups. It's the engine that drives them, in the same way a fall of water drives a water mill. People start startups in the hope of becoming much richer than they were before. And if your society tries to prevent anyone from being much richer than anyone else, it will also prevent one person from being much richer at t2 than t1.

Growth

This argument applies proportionately. It's not just that if you eliminate economic inequality, you get no startups. To the extent you reduce economic inequality, you decrease the number of startups. [4] Increase taxes, and willingness to take risks decreases in proportion.

And that seems bad for everyone. New technology and new jobs both come disproportionately from new companies. Indeed, if you don't have startups, pretty soon you won't have established companies either, just as, if you stop having kids, pretty soon you won't have any adults.

It sounds benevolent to say we ought to reduce economic inequality. When you phrase it that way, who can argue with you? Inequality has to be bad, right? It sounds a good deal less benevolent to say we ought to reduce the rate at which new companies are founded. And yet the one implies the other.

Indeed, it may be that reducing investors' appetite for risk doesn't merely kill off larval startups, but kills off the most promising ones especially. Startups yield faster growth at greater risk than established companies. Does this trend also hold among startups? That is, are the riskiest startups the ones that generate most growth if they succeed? I suspect the answer is yes. And that's a chilling thought, because it means that if you cut investors' appetite for risk, the most beneficial startups are the first to go.

Not all rich people got that way from startups, of course. What if we let people get rich by starting startups, but taxed away all other surplus wealth? Wouldn't that at least decrease inequality?

Less than you might think. If you made it so that people could only get rich by starting startups, people who wanted to get rich would all start startups. And that might be a great thing. But I don't think it would have much effect on the distribution of wealth. People who want to get rich will do whatever they have to. If startups are the only way to do it, you'll just get far more people starting startups. (If you write the laws very carefully, that is. More likely, you'll just get a lot of people doing things that can be made to look on paper like startups.)

If we're determined to eliminate economic inequality, there is still one way out: we could say that we're willing to go ahead and do without startups. What would happen if we did?

At a minimum, we'd have to accept lower rates of technological growth. If you believe that large, established companies could somehow be made to develop new technology as fast as startups, the ball is in your court to explain how. (If you can come up with a remotely plausible story, you can make a fortune writing business books and consulting for large companies.) [5]

Ok, so we get slower growth. Is that so bad? Well, one reason it's bad in practice is that other countries might not agree to slow down with us. If you're content to develop new technologies at a slower rate than the rest of the world, what happens is that you don't invent anything at all. Anything you might discover has already been invented elsewhere. And the only thing you can offer in return is raw materials and cheap labor. Once you sink that low, other countries can do whatever they like with you: install puppet governments, siphon off your best workers, use your women as prostitutes, dump their toxic waste on your territory-- all the things we do to poor countries now. The only defense is to isolate yourself, as communist countries did in the twentieth century. But the problem then is, you have to become a police state to enforce it.

Wealth and Power

I realize startups are not the main target of those who want to eliminate economic inequality. What they really dislike is the sort of wealth that becomes self-perpetuating through an alliance with power. For example, construction firms that fund politicians' campaigns in return for government contracts, or rich parents who get their children into good colleges by sending them to expensive schools designed for that purpose. But if you try to attack this type of wealth through economic policy, it's hard to hit without destroying startups as collateral damage.

The problem here is not wealth, but corruption. So why not go after corruption?

We don't need to prevent people from being rich if we can prevent wealth from translating into power. And there has been progress on that front. Before he died of drink in 1925, Commodore Vanderbilt's wastrel grandson Reggie ran down pedestrians on five separate occasions, killing two of them. By 1969, when Ted Kennedy drove off the bridge at Chappaquiddick, the limit seemed to be down to one. Today it may well be zero. But what's changed is not variation in wealth. What's changed is the ability to translate wealth into power.

How do you break the connection between wealth and power? Demand transparency. Watch closely how power is exercised, and demand an account of how decisions are made. Why aren't all police interrogations videotaped? Why did 36% of Princeton's class of 2007 come from prep schools, when only 1.7% of American kids attend them? Why did the US really invade Iraq? Why don't government officials disclose more about their finances, and why only during their term of office?

A friend of mine who knows a lot about computer security says the single most important step is to log everything. Back when he was a kid trying to break into computers, what worried him most was the idea of leaving a trail. He was more inconvenienced by the need to avoid that than by any obstacle deliberately put in his path.

Like all illicit connections, the connection between wealth and power flourishes in secret. Expose all transactions, and you will greatly reduce it. Log everything. That's a strategy that already seems to be working, and it doesn't have the side effect of making your whole country poor.

I don't think many people realize there is a connection between economic inequality and risk. I didn't fully grasp it till recently. I'd known for years of course that if one didn't score in a startup, the other alternative was to get a cozy, tenured research job. But I didn't understand the equation governing my behavior. Likewise, it's obvious empirically that a country that doesn't let people get rich is headed for disaster, whether it's Diocletian's Rome or Harold Wilson's Britain. But I did not till recently understand the role risk played.

If you try to attack wealth, you end up nailing risk as well, and with it growth. If we want a fairer world, I think we're better off attacking one step downstream, where wealth turns into power.
 
Deku said:
Stupid is too harsh. I think you're inherently naive for embracing a dictator who would happily shoot you for disagreeing with him

Sorry but no you're very much wrong, Hugo Chavez will not happily shoot you if you disagree with him, nor will he put you in jail and neither will anything at all negative occur as a result of your refusal to bow down before his feet. If sorry you're so brainwashed to believe such shit, and it is shit and I'd point out your obvious naivety and baffling hypocrisy in believing such shit to actually post it.

I mean I sort of take issue with spouting bullshit about people, places and governments that one knows nothing whatsoever about; and the extent of such peoples knowledge on such matters is who the US state department has labelled as ‘bad’, (even they haven't made such claims incidentally) and ratbag right news articles mostly by ex-pat wealthy Venezuelans who had their unused farmland confiscated (they're reimbursed for the record) and given to the poor...oh the fucking humanity of it all.

You know it's so easy to whip out examples off the top of my head that show you couldn't be anymore wrong, the free, open and independently verified elections in Venezuela, the five privately owned media television stations that pump out continuous anti-Chavez propaganda in the country, the presidential recall provisions placed in the constitution by the Chavez government that was eventually used against him and the failed coup of 2002 where the most severe sentence for the main perpetrators was to be sentenced to house arrest and be thrown out of the army; in most other countries the penalties for an attempted coup would be vastly harsher.

So yeah I can’t help but say I'm personally sick to death of pampered westerners talk shit about countries and places they know nothing about. I mean really, you’re just plain wrong.
 
As for the topic at hand, I've been through it before and realised its a fruitless endeavour because capitalists have a stagnant mindset. The problem is they think the economic system we've got is the very best we could ever possibly have. They don't consider the concept of social development and technological change, for example, was feudalism the best form of economic system throughout the middle ages? Of course, yet it evolved; mercantilist policies came into vouge and social as technological advancement dictated and then rudimentary capitalism came to the fore as a result of the emergence of mass industry and manufacturing capacity. Socio-economic systems have and continue to develop according to the necessary social and technological requirements of various times and places.

All aspects of society from the political to the economic are in constant states of evolution, pushed largely by technological development and it is absurd and absolutely short-sighted to dismiss alternative forms of social and economic structures based upon the world as it is today; capitalism is not the end of history as an author once said, that is bullshit. You might as well say we should have stopped social development when we discovered how to make fire. We could hunt and stay warm, so what more did prehistoric man need right? In the future it is not too difficult to imagine societies under which capitalism would be unsustainable and as a consequence human society would have to adapt and change as a result. For example, consider a society where the manufacturing and processes of today are largely automated by advanced technologies such as robotics and nanotechnology eliminating a very large portion of the global labour market, the very foundation of capitalism.

Perhaps capitalism is the most effective and most efficient means of generating wealth and improving social and technical development right now (debatable), but that is not to say it is or always will be under any circumstance. It will evolve into more advanced systems of political and economic organisation in the future as necessity dictates.
 
The Chavez PR camp dials in too weak, too late... :lol

Seriously, championing Hugo Chavez? Our young "revolutionaries" are obviously running out of truly worship-worthy modern heroes...

How's that saying go? "If you're not a rebel by the time you're 20, you've got no heart. If you haven't turned establishment by the time you're 30, you've got no brains." Truer words...etc., etc...

Tick, tock, tick, tock!
 
People such as Inumaru are often not worth a response as instead of making an argument of their own, they see fit to patronise opposing viewpoints in a demeaning manner devoid of argumentative basis or logical reasoning. With that said, the central point of the above post is one of conformity, that one must conform to the ideals and principles of the establishment regardless of what that establishment actually is lest they be cast as having 'no brains'. Of course any real look at the point being made would show it as the particularly weak point it really is.

History is filled to the brim with individuals who challenged the establishment and succeeded for the better, Galileo Galilee and Charles Darwin to name but a few. What people like Inumaru show me is that the weakness of a society is the inability to look inward, analyse its flaws and to work to fix them. It is the classical scenario of pointing fingers at anything and anyone but oneself and there are a whole cadre of sheeple who will quickly pour out of the woodwork defensive of anything and everything that may dispute their little society. Such people are brainwashed conformists with no vision and no ideals.
 
Great incentive to work hard.. you poor? Don't worry, some rich asshole will foot your bill. He deserves it for being successful.

People don't get "rich" by working hard, on average. Sure, they can make it into the six digit range by getting into a good school and pulling down some 60+ hours weeks early in their career, but that is an option that STILL requires capital or massive amounts of loans.

Most folks in the low- and middle-class work FAR harder than most rich folk do in terms of mental/emotional/heat energy expended, and they don't get to play anywhere near as hard. It's pure ignorance if you think otherwise; try putting in 40-50 hours a week in the trenches, and your posh accounting or dentist job will seem pretty lightweight. Three-quarters of the folks in the trenches are smarter than you, too; they just had the misfortune of a life without access to any money they could use to further themselves, or they weren't raised in a safe, secure environment of the sort that fosters ambition over self-preservation.

The bootstrap entrepreneur is almost completely dead as an American concept. People get rich by being rich, by having access to capital through family, friends, or other connections, and/or by using the capital to engage in speculation, investment, or the stock market -- basically GAMBLING. For every purportedly "self-made" rich man, there's nine failures who lost it all. Those who can buffer their losses with existing money cand capital become or stay wealthy. They became wealthy because society supported them and enabled them, and they need to pay their dues in a percentage proportion. A stable society also PROTECTS their wealth, and that's something they can likewise pay for. The hilarious bit is that we believe that the one dude who "made it" is somehow smarter and better because the ball landed on red when he called it. If that's the case, someone call MENSA and tell 'em Jennifer Tilly is their new president.

Lastly, you can't make all the poor into specialists. Society only needs so many doctors, lawyers, engineers, pro athlethes, and actors; someone has to cook the food, till the fields, operate the machinery, stock the warehouses, and sell the product. And they need to do it in VASTLY larger proportion to the "specialist" jobs. However, since the wealthy have nearly exclusive access to the sort of education necessary for the specialist jobs as well as the connections and the capital, they get them, the situation remains unchanged from our more dynastic times: it's pretty hard for a rich kid to wind up a poor adult, and the converse is likewise true.

Unlike what the naive mewlings of the Libertarian set would tell you, you aren't an island, and you can't exist without society. Pay up in proportion to what you take from it.

(A note for the "wah wah you're just a poor bitter college kid" set: I'm 31, I make over six digits a year as a software engineering professional -- and I've successfully parleyed the stock market into a chunk of extra cash -- and I'd gladly pay double my taxes if I could guarantee a society where all of the poor had equal access to education and opportunity and where the larger percentage of society's resources were directed into improving the habitation and lives of the poor.)
 
Drinky Crow said:
(A note for the "wah wah you're just a poor bitter college kid" set: I'm 31, I make over six digits a year as a software engineering professional -- and I've successfully parleyed the stock market into a chunk of extra cash -- and I'd gladly pay double my taxes if I could guarantee a society where all of the poor had equal access to education and opportunity and where the larger percentage of society's resources were directed into improving the habitation and lives of the poor.)

I agree with this completely, and this can happen under free markets.

Look at Japan, a society geared entirely towards a hard working mass middle class each with equal access.
 
Lastly, you can't make all the poor into specialists. Society only needs so many doctors, lawyers, engineers, pro athlethes, and actors; someone has to cook the food, till the fields, operate the machinery, stock the warehouses, and sell the product. And they need to do it in VASTLY larger proportion to the "specialist" jobs. However, since the wealthy have nearly exclusive access to the sort of education necessary for the specialist jobs as well as the connections and the capital, they get them, the situation remains unchanged from our more dynastic times: it's pretty hard for a rich kid to wind up a poor adult, and the converse is likewise true.

Have you actually have a concept oh how poorly people lived in the past and during 'dynastic' times or are you just making stuff up as you go?

Upward mobility of people in advanced economies is far greater than it was at any point in history. And yes, rich kids do become poor adults by squandering away their trust funds and not going to school. There are also rich kids who take the opportunities they get and go with it and become even richer. And it's their fault because they were born rich?
 
Deku, chances are I'm an order of magnitude more educated on this subject than you are, and best of all: I know what "dynastic" means! AWESOMEZ!
 
Drinky Crow said:
Deku, chances are I'm an order of magnitude more educated on this subject than you are, and best of all: I know what "dynastic" means! AWESOMEZ!

I think you should prove it, pretty please, because I would like to see your debate continue.
 
Deku said:
Upward mobility of people in advanced economies is far greater than it was at any point in history. And yes, rich kids do become poor adults by squandering away their trust funds and not going to school.

And then there are some rich kids who fail in every venture they touch, but somehow get elected President of the United States. Go figure.

There are also rich kids who take the opportunities they get and go with it and become even richer. And it's their fault because they were born rich?

It's certainly not their fault that they were born rich. It does kind of take away some of the steam from the "rich people are rich because they work harder" argument. I could build a house with my bare hands, but if another man has access to the finest tools, equipment and hired help, he will make a better house. Period. And not "work" as hard as I do in my labors.

fart said:
i haven't even read this thread and i already know that it's full of bullshit

Other than maybe three things that I said and everything Drinky Admin said, you sir are completely correct.
 
Deku said:
Have you actually have a concept oh how poorly people lived in the past and during 'dynastic' times or are you just making stuff up as you go?

Upward mobility of people in advanced economies is far greater than it was at any point in history. And yes, rich kids do become poor adults by squandering away their trust funds and not going to school. There are also rich kids who take the opportunities they get and go with it and become even richer. And it's their fault because they were born rich?
Does that mean we should quit trying to improve? Of course not. You wouldn't hear doctors saying "Well we've cured a few diseases in the past, and there's a lot less sickness now then there was fifty years ago... we don't have to do anything more." Same with scientists. Just because conditions improve doesn't make inequality fair.

Like I said before, and Drinky replied with, the wealth of the nations elite could NOT exist without the poor there to support it. Your wealth doesn't exist in a vacuum... it's a very real, very tangible thing (unless we're talking about the essence of 'money', but that's a different convo).

McMoron said:
Do you think it would be better if no one had the money to start a company so that poor people can get a damn job in the first place?
What good is it to have a job if there's nobody there to work the jobs in the first place? You're not gonna own the company if you have nobody to work for you. It's not an instance of handing out to the poor from the rich like you're trying to paint it to be... it's complete mutualism. Anybody who's studied any history knows that when you have an upper-class that gets too far out of touch with the lower class, bad, BAD things happen.
McMoron said:
Didn't you know? All us rich folks got here not by hardwork and success.. no we're living in our McMansions because WE'RE LAZY.
Nobody is saying that's the case. But the fact of the matter is that you have more capital that you don't need, and nobody is taxing your reward for hardwork, success, whatever. We're just saying that since you have sooo much more money, you can obviously stand to live without it all as well. Like I said... the taxing system isn't fair at all, but neither is the society which perpetuates poverty upon poverty. I'll say what I've said before... when a poor 18 year old is given just as much opportunity as the rich 18 year old, and both are able to fuck up their chances on their own terms, then I'll lay off my stance on strong social programs. But the fact of the matter is that since no two people are equal, nor will they be equal, there's no reason to abdicate treating them as equals once one is rich and the other is poor, after the fact.
 
Drinky Crow said:
Deku, chances are I'm an order of magnitude more educated on this subject than you are, and best of all: I know what "dynastic" means! AWESOMEZ!

Really? So you're response to a rebuttal is to question someone's education thereby ignoring the argument alltogether?

And you still haven't proven your point about how upward mobility was as bad as during the 'dynastic' times.
 
i dont know much about governments, monies and investments, but i had a couple of questions

is it possible for a government to collect tax, and invest the money to make more money???

if so, is it also possible to collect enough profit from the invested money to use towards infrastructure and the like, all the things governments spend money on, and lessen tax or scrap it all together?

this may seem like a crazy idea, like i said, i dont know much about much. however to me this simplistic idea seems crazy enough to work. I would assume a 5-10 year investing of money could lead to no tax, whatsoever.

any rebuttals?
 
Really? So you're response to a rebuttal is to question someone's education thereby ignoring the argument alltogether?

Kinda like how you claimed I was "making stuff up as I went along" -- that was a real work of rhetorical genius, especially in light of your inability to read as follows:

And you still haven't proven your point about how upward mobility was as bad as during the 'dynastic' times.

Please re-read my remarks and point out the bit where I *didn't* describe the current circulation and availability of America's wealth among the upper classes as "dynastic" but *did* suggest that it was somehow magically comparable to "dynastic times" because not only am I not seein' it myself, its absence is also kinda crucial to the point I was making, cap'n.
 
Drinky Crow said:
Kinda like how you claimed I was "making stuff up as I went along" -- that was a real work of rhetorical genius, especially in light of your inability to read as follows:

Please re-read my remarks and point out the bit where I *didn't* describe the current circulation and availability of America's wealth among the upper classes as "dynastic" but *did* suggest that it was somehow magically comparable to "dynastic times" because not only am I not seein' it myself, its absence is also kinda crucial to the point I was making, cap'n.

You mean this?

The bootstrap entrepreneur is almost completely dead as an American concept. People get rich by being rich, by having access to capital through family, friends, or other connections, and/or by using the capital to engage in speculation, investment, or the stock market -- basically GAMBLING. For every purportedly "self-made" rich man, there's nine failures who lost it all. Those who can buffer their losses with existing money cand capital become or stay wealthy. They became wealthy because society supported them and enabled them, and they need to pay their dues in a percentage proportion. A stable society also PROTECTS their wealth, and that's something they can likewise pay for. The hilarious bit is that we believe that the one dude who "made it" is somehow smarter and better because the ball landed on red when he called it. If that's the case, someone call MENSA and tell 'em Jennifer Tilly is their new president.

It's an opinion. And the dude who'se made it is not smarter than most. There are many kinds of intelligence and bravery and savvy. You're analysis of equating business sucess with the luck of the draw is simplistic and highly prejudiced based on your own biases against a certain type of successful persons. There's plenty of smart intelligent people who never make it rich because they may be smart, but they don't know how to be successful.

Lastly, you can't make all the poor into specialists. Society only needs so many doctors, lawyers, engineers, pro athlethes, and actors; someone has to cook the food, till the fields, operate the machinery, stock the warehouses, and sell the product. And they need to do it in VASTLY larger proportion to the "specialist" jobs. However, since the wealthy have nearly exclusive access to the sort of education necessary for the specialist jobs as well as the connections and the capital, they get them, the situation remains unchanged from our more dynastic times: it's pretty hard for a rich kid to wind up a poor adult, and the converse is likewise true.

And here's me requoting this fanatastic line of yours again. First of all, most univeristy students come from middle income families. And many lower income groups try very hard and take on debt to get a higher education. I worked in my university records of admissions offices, and I've seen the data. You're just pulling stuff out of your ass when you talk about the rich only getting education. But then agian, you've been wishy washy on who the rich really are.

At times you sound like a patrician middle aged man living in comfort sneering at the dynamisn of a business class you don't want to understand. At other times, you sounds like a college punk living on less than $10,000 calling for world revolution and classifying everyone living in relative comfort to be rich.

Wealth in our society is inherited. So yes, there will be a 'dynastic' effect but your premises about the lower classes getting shut out is at best, a propaganda line for more public funding of higher education, which ironically, is something I approve of, mostly because of my work with low income students. Mostly though you're just spouting your opinions, which is why I asked you if you were just making it up as you went along. It's not like this is my first time debating someone. I know the rules of any debates and how easily opinion is passed off as fact. You don't really need to play dumb.

I do agree with you that not everyone in society can be specialists and society needs to take care of those who are supporting specialist. High taxes? sure. But we really aren't talking about higher taxes are we. I'm objecting to your self important rant against society and not a well thought out plan on how to redistribute wealth.

We're not all that far apart really, except i'm a more of libertarian and closer to the center of the political spectrum. On second thought, no, we are far apart.

nlike what the naive mewlings of the Libertarian set would tell you, you aren't an island, and you can't exist without society. Pay up in proportion to what you take from it.

You know, instead of writing all that, you could have just said 'I'm not a libertarian. I believe in state control.' and we would have all gotten your point. And no, libertarians don't believe we live on an Island, Libertarians simply don't trust society, especially a highly centrallized one on making the right decision and infringing on people's rights. Libertarians see governments as ultimately authoritarian unthinking mahcines that can spin out of control. And based on the collective experience of different people's around the world when it came to governments with immense power to tax and redistirbute capital (ineffectively I might add), libertarians have been proven right so far. And i'm not pulling this one out of my ass. The old non capitalist China, USSR, Eastern Europe, North Korea, to name a few. And compared to the US, the economies of Japan and Europe are sickly and stagnant, in part because government has grown too large.

I'm not advocating unfettered liberalism of course, but I think a society where there is a tension between a libertarian streak and a centralizing of government will keep society and the libertarians honest.
 
Yes, Deku is right. The theory is great but it doesn't work in reality. That's why we're all talking about video games in our leisure time instead of subsistence farming and hoping Dear Socialist Leader doesn't sign an order sending us to a work camp. If you just ignore all of the history nobdy can take you seriously. I'd rather not take any Great Leaps Forward, if you get my drift.
 
Guileless said:
Yes, Deku is right. The theory is great but it doesn't work in reality. That's why we're all talking about video games in our leisure time instead of subsistence farming and hoping Dear Socialist Leader doesn't sign an order sending us to a work camp. If you just ignore all of the history nobdy can take you seriously. I'd rather not take any Great Leaps Forward, if you get my drift.
...point one finger at someone else, man, and you've got 3 pointing right back at you.

I notice that none of these anti-socialist arguments take into account the incredibly successful socialist tendencies of scandinavian states.
 
whytemyke said:
...point one finger at someone else, man, and you've got 3 pointing right back at you.

I notice that none of these anti-socialist arguments take into account the incredibly successful socialist tendencies of scandinavian states.
Or the fact that psuedo socialist programs are what turned Chile around after Pinochet's idiotic fiasco. Yeah, every country should be fitted for the golden straight jacket. Brilliant!
 
Waychel said:
How poor is poor...

how-poor-is-poor-01.jpg


how-poor-is-poor-03.jpg


how-poor-is-poor.png


...when these people can afford satellite television for their shacks on welfare?

These people get so many subsidies, grants and other crap already that it is disgusting. This is a country of endless opportunity, but what incentive is there for these people to better their standard of living when they have come to expect the state as well as the government to provide everything for them?

I wish I had my camera last year when I was helping to hand out turkeys and other stuff to the needy on Thanksgiving. There were "poor" teen mothers chatting away on their cellphones in line. They demanded to have the male volunteers help carry the donations out to their brand new cars that subsidies had provided for them.

The problem isn't that we aren't providing enough money to these people, but that we are creating dependency upon both the state and government for that money.

[sarcasm on]
Oh wow, you've really nailed the nail on the head. IN YOUR minute life experience you've seen poor people ***garsh*** watch satelitte television and ***gosh*** talk on cell phones. Somebody dial up zombie Reagan, the welfare queens are alive!!! [sarcasm off]

First of all, I know that THERE ARE free-riders who abuse welfare systems, and they should be punished according to the severity of the deed (ie a women who uses food stamps for cigarettes should have a different penalty than a hospital CEO who willingly overcharded Medicaid and Medicare for millions of dollars.)


Secondly, Fuck you. Fuck you and the rest of you assholes using your miniscule*charitable* efforts to assuage your guilt. You people (I fucking know I'm generalizing) don't work in soup kitchens or pass out shit turkeys to cleanse your souls for heaven or because you care about the working classes; its because you need to remind yourself why you and your family don't have to live paycheck to paycheck and its because you're not lazy, immoral minorities like THEY are.

In your distorted world its lazy poor people that steal from the middle class. NOT the non-profit local Catholic hospital chain that receives $12million in tax breaks each year while only giving $6million in charitable care. This benevolent community partner can also pay its CEO > $800,000 while they sued and garnished wages, emptied bank accounts and harassed 1300 working-class patients for bills. To top it all off, they can post $10 million in operating excess (ie profit) with nary a peep because they're a free enterprisel. And this is just one egregious example from where I live.

Poor people who spend 40+ hours a week at week at mind-numbing, physically debiliating jobs cleaning up our elderly's shit in for-profit nursing homes, emptying our starbucks' cups from office dumpsters and choking to death on chemicals in silicon valley *clean* factories deserve a lot more from this society than the ability to talk with their family and friends or watch some extra sports channels. Truth be told, I hope your kind succeed in taking away "high-cost" items like cell phones and TV because they'll have less distractions to keep them from taking back what is rightfully theirs.
 
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