You don't even know what she said, let alone if she lied. You don't know any of what the police know. That's good. Its done to help her maintain her privacy. You shouldn't know the guys name either, but the newspapers had no problem printing it.
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Rape charge dropped against USC student after evidence of consent presented
- Thread starter norm9
- Start date
excelsiorlef
Member
There's no indication they're charging her so
Amibguous Cad
Member
And men often spike drinks with more alcohol, or have them mixed mixed stronger than the woman would expect, precisely to engineer this excuse.
Fuck it, y'all vanilla hets need to get your own Bathhouses or swingers clubs or BDSM dungeons or whatever. Make public spaces for casual sex, like proper degenerates, so it's never he said, she said.
I know you're not going to like this answer, because it will sound like useless "legalese," but there's a difference between being factually innocent and being legally innocent. You may have noticed that verdicts aren't written to find people "innocent" they are written to find them "not guilty." It's because the law judges, only, whether there is enough proof of a crime and it recognizes that a lack of proof, doesn't equate with actual innocence.
It encourages other victims to come forward. A lot of rapes go unreported, so a lot of rapists get away with it. If more women come forward with similar stories, it can really help get to the truth.
Keep in mind, rape is notoriously difficult to prove. The accused saying "she consented" is enough for reasonable doubt in most cases.
Dude Abides
Banned
Not really. The video shows her flirting with him at the bar and outside and them getting an uber. Apparently there's video of her signing him into her dorm. There's no direct evidence at all that we've seen of what happened in the dorm room, which is when the supposed assault occurred. The police say that after the encounter he went to the bathroom and her roommate confronted him in some fashion and he left. Based on that it certainly makes sense to drop the charges but you'd have to be a really stupid prosecutor to think you could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she lied.
Alright... fine, then put both their names out there. But just slapping his name all over and not giving a fuck while keeping hers close is ridiculous. That shouldn't be handled that way at all. We have already seen the damage it does even when people are shown to be innocent. Ignoring that is careless as fuck. Either put all the names out there, or stfu with the names until the info shakes out what happened IMO. I especially don't see the harm in the latter.
Psychoward
Banned
I've literally never seen this happen in college but experienced plenty of people feeling like they were drugged after having 1 or 2 drinks from a vat at a frat/lacrosse/football party.
old
Member
Articles says they were both drunk. How could HE consent if he was intoxicated? Also says she was the aggressor. Video shows her dragging him by the arm out of the bar. I don't see why he doesn't claim she raped him.
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
I'm just going to say it's not just men who do this. One of my local neighborhood friends when I was a kid was a great friend, but she had a sociopathic terrible mother. I only learned about druggimg drinks when young through her because she would drug guys drinks at bars to bring them home. My friend before she was 18 after years of on and off child service issues ran away from home and never returned and is doing okay now years later thankfully. But I think people sometimes forget shitty things are not gender exclusive.
I understand all that. I simply think there should be a period where both names are private until it is determined that there is both sufficient evidence to proceed with a trial and after the accused has seen a judge for a preliminary hearing. Then release the accused's name.
Alter_Fridge
Member
Lol no, but haven't you ever been with a girl and it was ok at first and then at sone point she changed her mind and wanted to stop?
I have LOL
I don't know if this has been discussed yet, but it looks like she was passed out when the roommate confronted him. I also don't know if this is a case of her not remembering at all what happened the previous night, but it's possible the roommate put the idea in her head that she was raped (with what she witnessed), and they went and reported it to the police.
If that was the case I wouldn't say she should be jailed or shamed, but she would definitely owe him an apology at the very least - not just her, but the roommate as well. Does he get the money back for posting bond? $100k is a lot of money, and if he doesn't get it back he should get it from them. I wish there was some legal recourse he could take against the press for jumping the gun and releasing his name.
If that was the case I wouldn't say she should be jailed or shamed, but she would definitely owe him an apology at the very least - not just her, but the roommate as well. Does he get the money back for posting bond? $100k is a lot of money, and if he doesn't get it back he should get it from them. I wish there was some legal recourse he could take against the press for jumping the gun and releasing his name.
The point of posting bond is to get it back when you show up in court. If the case was dismissed, he gets that bond returned to him.
From what I have heard, there is video of her flirting at the bar including some signal to her friends that she was taking him home, video of her checking him into her dorm, and testimony from the Uber driver that she was bouncing on top of him in his car.
If she was drugged, she would have been incapable of most of that. Since they are underage in a college dorm, alcohol is probably not allowed in her room, and she already brought him home.
It doesn't really make sense that he drugged her in her own dorm room. If he didn't drug her, and there is no evidence that she was drugged, then the whole story is cast into doubt.
Ahhh gotcha. Thank you. I wasn't entirely sure of that
I understand that.
But he is clearly both legally and factually innocent of "raping her by use of drugs". Show me where she was drugged or show me any indication she had been drugged. She was mobile and coherent all the way from the bar to her dorm.
A lot of people here just don't want to admit that her initial story is clearly factually false.
She wasn't drugged. There is no evidence that she was drugged.
edit: I'll gladly say different if they come back and say "she tested positive for Rophynol, GHB, or Ketamine", but until then, the drugged part appears factually wrong. I assume that is not the case, or they would 1) probably have enough evidence to bring the case 2) she probably would not have been in good enough shape physically to actually report the rape early in the morning.
You are making a lot of assumptions in this narrative that aren't supported by any evidence. You seem to assume she couldn't have been drugged, because "alcohol is probably not allowed in her room," but you don't need alcohol to drug someone. Also, you assume that, because it's not allowed, college kids definitely don't have any. Next, you seem to assume he wouldn't have drugged her, because she already brought him home, but that only removes one likely motivation for drugging. Another probable motivation is that he wanted to engage in some specific sex act she didn't...like with foreign objects, for example. Then, last, you assume that if she's wrong about being drugged, it means she lied about everything, but that's not necessarily true.
While you say he's "definitely factually innocent," you're not reaching that conclusion based on solid proof. You're reaching that conclusion based on your interpretation of the evening and assumptions you think are probable. That's all. Maybe you're right, but it's just as likely you're wrong. The only thing we have proof of is that she flirted with him before taking him home and that her roommate believes she witnessed him raping her (unless you think the roommate is lying).
Ok, then there is literally zero public evidence that she was drugged. You really think that it's just as probable that she was later drugged? I will agree that is is POSSIBLE. But just as likely?
Why is it jJUST AS PROBABLE and not EVEN MORE LIKELY? Occam's razor would suggest that she was probably not drugged, and there is probably no evidence that she was drugged. Because if she was drugged earlier in the night, she would look more intoxicated than she was on the tapes. And in any case, there would be evidence in her blood samples as part of the rape kit.
Since they just dropped charges, I'm going to make an assumption that says that this evidence doesn't actually exist on any tapes, including those we have not seen, or in her blood samples.
If she lied about being drugged, then you can't really trust her story at all.
NinjaBoiX
Member
Oh come on man, as if anyone getting hot and heavy is going to continually ask "are you sure you want to do this?", "is this OK?", "are you sure you don't mind?" That's just not what people do.
Obviously if it becomes apparent that the other party isn't into it or wants to stop then that's another matter.
I do it all the time. "Is this what you want?" "Tell me you want my dick in you!" "Say it into this camera!"
To make sure that consent is continually reaffirmed, I just tell women to say "yes" when they want me to trust so sex ends up with them saying "yes, yes, yes!" over and over.
I agree that its more likely she wasn't drugged, but you're relying too much on this fact, when you extend it to mean he's DEFINITELY factually innocent. The point is, we don't have any evidence of what actually happened in the room and there are many possible scenarios that are factually consistent with the little evidence we have. Drugging is just one example of something we can't know for sure.
Personally, I think the most probable scenario is that she initially consented to sex, passed out during and he continued to have sex with her. I think this is most likely what the roommate walked in on and I think it's likely the girl genuinely didn't remember anything that happened and assumed she was drugged. I think this is much more probable than two girls deciding to lie about rape.
Not according to the story and evidence.
I agree that it was almost definitely some kind of drunken sloppy hookup that somehow got turned into "I must have been drugged and raped"
I never said that two girls decided to lie about rape. I think the girl gave a false version of events, but was not maliciously lying.
But you've been adamant he's factually innocent. In the scenario I posted above, which you seem to agree is probable, he isn't factually innocent, because in that scenario he continued to have sex with an unconscious woman. Now, obviously, I don't actually know if this is what happened, but the existence of these equally probable possibilities, is the reason why people have pointed out that a lack of proof doesn't mean he's definitely innocent.
alexthekid
Member
You usually dont prove it in the same way as other crimes. Sometimes word against word is enough.
Kuroi Gogeta
Member
What a tragic situation all around. If something happens to the woman in the future, she may be reluctant to step forward and may end up suffering unbearable mental anguish. This is the kind of thing that prevents people from speaking up, they don't know if they will be believed. Its too bad about the man too, now when people look up his name "sexual assault" and "rape" will come up too. He'll have to go the rest of his life trying to explain how he was acquitted.
Many of these tales and the idea of consent being revoked at any time--I think it scares a lot of guys. Like how can you prove that you didn't intentionally make sure that someone was more intoxicated than you, and you proceeded to take advantage? its not like there were witnesses, toxicology report, video, or a written and signed consent form or rape kit as there was no forcible penetration.
One night stands and party hookups are so normalized in western culture, it's everywhere to the point where it feels like a rite of passage into adulthood, but at the same time there are so many situations where women and men are taken advantage of or are accused of something horrible that they may not even have a recollection of doing because they too were under the influence or did not hear a definitive "no" or any sort of physical signals that indicated anything other than a desire to continue in the activity.
I wonder about this kind of thing as someone who may have kids one day. My instinct is to tell them "avoid drinking, drugs and the party scene. Party if you want, but avoid anything that could alter your ability to give consent" which is easy to say but when so many of your peers are in that scene, and you see it on television and film, the instinct is to rebel against such advice.
Many of these tales and the idea of consent being revoked at any time--I think it scares a lot of guys. Like how can you prove that you didn't intentionally make sure that someone was more intoxicated than you, and you proceeded to take advantage? its not like there were witnesses, toxicology report, video, or a written and signed consent form or rape kit as there was no forcible penetration.
One night stands and party hookups are so normalized in western culture, it's everywhere to the point where it feels like a rite of passage into adulthood, but at the same time there are so many situations where women and men are taken advantage of or are accused of something horrible that they may not even have a recollection of doing because they too were under the influence or did not hear a definitive "no" or any sort of physical signals that indicated anything other than a desire to continue in the activity.
I wonder about this kind of thing as someone who may have kids one day. My instinct is to tell them "avoid drinking, drugs and the party scene. Party if you want, but avoid anything that could alter your ability to give consent" which is easy to say but when so many of your peers are in that scene, and you see it on television and film, the instinct is to rebel against such advice.
He is factually innocent of "rape by use of drugs and sexual penetration by a foreign object." Which is what they said he was charged with in the article.
Two very drunk college kids having consensual sloppy sex and one of them passes out is not an entirely uncommon occurrence. He has a responsibility to stop, but how quickly before it's rape? What is a reasonable expectation for how quickly someone who is wasted to notice the other person is falling asleep? Good luck getting a jury, or even a room full of people to agree on exactly where that line lies, and when it blurs from being two drunken college kids having sex into rape. Many people will say "As soon as she passes out" but the real world is not nearly that cut and dry.
Unless the roommate was watching for an extended amount of time, I'm not exactly sure how she could judge it either. This isn't like the dude who was fingering the chick behind the dumpster for 30 minutes while she was clearly non-responsive.
Here is what I can find on withdrawn consent in California:
Under this interpretation, it is not clear that two drunk people having a sexual encounter that starts in a clearly consensual way becomes rape even if one of them is beginning to pass out. I think there is a strong argument that since he too was drunk, he may not easily be able to tell that she had been passing out and was incapable of understanding that she had withdrawn consent. And if the above is correct, then that too would not be prosecutable.
I'm not saying it's not a messy situation. It absolutely is and is exhibit A for not drunkenly hooking up with strangers... but IMO, this case never should have went as far as it did.
LinkAndEpona
Banned
If this guy loses out on opportunities in the future then the accusers should definitely be held liable and forved to pay compensation. That would be a fair 'punishment'.
Is it really that hard to go "do you like this" "does this feel good" etc during the act?
Are you literally incapable of speaking while having sex?
I can't believe how goddamn difficult it is for some of you to understand this shit, it's really not that hard. All these fucking jokes about consent (not you, throughout the thread) are pretty goddamn disgusting too.
Zoe
Member
Bail gets returned, bond does not. Most people, much less college students, don't have enough to post bail without getting a bond.
Hi, I'm not contradicting you here or offering an opinion on what happened to this girl. Just jumping in here to let people who otherwise may not know that drugging is actually pretty common. In 2009, almost 15,000 people were admitted to the ER reporting intentional poisoning. An average of 40 people per day. You combine that with Rohypnol intoxication being very similar to results of party or binge drinking...
and you can see how scary situations can result.
Stay safe out there.
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
Have you had sex?
H.Protagonist
[-_-]/
Have you? She's not suggesting anything unusual or difficult.
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
It's fairly unusual to continually talk during sex. Can easily lose the mood. Learn to read body language.
benicillin
Banned
I don't know what you guys are talking about, everyone knows anything other than complete silence instantly ends a sexual encounter. I'm talking like, Buckingham Palace guard or "Greek statue given sentience and turned into a sex golem" levels of quiet stoicism.
Hari Seldon
Member
Hopefully he sues her for false allegations for any money he is out.
benicillin
Banned
Pretty clear cut to me! *instantly makes up a bunch of bullshit*
H.Protagonist
[-_-]/
Who's suggesting a constant stream of conversation? A few check ins to see if they like what you're doing or want to try stuff does not ruin the mood. And if people were actually halfway proficient at reading body language, would we have half as many cases of this stuff as we do?