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[IFireflyl]

They didn’t acquire 343, and what went wrong with Bungie? They wanted to be independent. Lionhead came in with two of the main creators having already left and many of the developers gone too. Even Pete left not long after.

If you’re claiming that moving Black Tusk to Gears is “incompetence”, when it resulted in four good to very good games, then I don’t know what to tell you. It’s also a weird thing to see when a lot of people claim MS should have canceled Redfall and made Arkane Austin work on something else. So canceling one game and making the studio work on something else is incompetence, but canceling another and making the studio work on something else is great?

Xbox Entertainment Studios wasn’t an acquisition and didn’t make games. No offense but are you just reading some list of closures or something

Again, there’s a large section of their output that is good to very good. Then there are games like Redfall. And they’ve closed some studios. Same as anyone else. This incompetence narrative is nonsense.

Bungie left because they were being forced by Microsoft to make games that they didn't want to make. Bungie would have been fine if Microsoft had just let 343 Industries take over the Halo series and let Bungie work on different games. Bungie left because of Microsoft. This is well documented, and even Phil Spencer has admitted that Microsoft was the reason that Bungie left.

Acquisitions themselves aren't the issue. The issue is overall mismanagement. This impacts acquired studios as well, because Microsoft isn't properly managing their studios in general. Stop looking at Microsoft's management of their Xbox studios with rose-colored glasses.

I Have Some Concerns About Xbox And Game Pass

It has been a tumultuous uh, decade for Xbox, on the whole, after the huge success of the 360 era.

www.forbes.com

*>XBox is a great example of horrible mismanagement that cost Microsoft many bil... | Hacker News

news.ycombinator.com

What is Going on With Xbox Game Studios?

Despite advancements like Game Pass and major acquisitions, Xbox's first-party development still has its share of problems.

gamingbolt.com

Microsoft Xbox Loses Its Way as 'Halo' Stumbles

Microsoft's game studios were among the hardest hit in the company's recent round of layoffs. Developers are expressing their frustration.

www.barrons.com

Xbox Execs Admit Mismanagement Of Fable Developer Lionhead Studios Was One Of Their "Biggest Missteps"

Microsoft Xbox executives past and present have admitted that the way they handled Lionhead Studios was one of their "biggest missteps."

boundingintocomics.com

On Xbox, caveats, and mismanaged expectations

The Redfall controversy is another example of Xbox seeding snippets of disappointment.

www.windowscentral.com

Is Xbox Mismanaging Their Studios?

Podcast Episode · Defining Duke: An Xbox Podcast · 07/03/2022 · 3h 47m

podcasts.apple.com

Xbox studio ‘Undead Labs’ faces allegations of mismanagement - KitGuru

Xbox has faced plenty of criticism in the past for its heavy-handed approach to studio and project m

www.kitguru.net

Xbox Games Studios Boss Responds To Reports of Crunch At Bethesda

A report from Kotaku details his answer to employee concerns at an all-hands Q&A.

www.gamespot.com

Have I made my point, or do you still want to pretend that Microsoft is a shining example of management in the world of Xbox?

 

[SEGAvangelist]

It's funny that you don't even remember Crackdown 3 and Bleeding Edge

Crackdown 3 is over 4 years old.

 

[Topher]

I have no problem with GaaS. The problem comes with converting a single player focused studio to GaaS. It almost never ends well.

I think for a lot of devs the problem comes when creating a game based on a elaborate business model rather than making a game based on simply making a great game. Obviously there are devs who have done well with the Gaas model, but the number of devs who have failed are growing in numbers. Not every game needs to be (or can be) the next Fortnite.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Aside Redfall and Minecraft Legends, almost all the games they've published in the last 3, 4 years have 80+ on opencritic.

I guess it's the convenient boogeyman.

Convenient is the perfect term.

Tango releases amazing HiFi Rush, uh well but it was already being made before MS! Doesn’t count!

AA releases meh as fuck Redfall, uh LOL typical MS release!

As if they’re the only publisher or platform holder that ever has a dud

 

[Interfectum]

Based on this article, nothing?

And that’s the problem.

Precisely. What's the rationale behind acquiring these publishers if you're not going to integrate them into your brand and foster a sense of unity? If they're going to maintain such a laissez-faire approach, what's the purpose of the purchase? Instead of outright buying them, they could just ink a long-term, exclusive 10-year contract for Game Pass games. This approach would make more sense if their main objective is merely to amass content, without particular concern about its nature.

 

[Shubh_C63]

It's not an FPS for fucks sake.

Well done proving his point.

I don't get it, Prey is an action adventure survival game but still is an FPS not a TPS or something else.

 

[SF Kosmo]

Misleading thread title, the claim is that 70% of the people who worked on Prey left Arkane by the time Redfall came out.

 

[scarlet0pimp]

You can tell by playing the game that it used to be a GASS and that was scrapped part way through. I still think the game can be salvaged, it should have been delayed at least until October all the Halloween stuff dotted about the map at least then would have been fitting.
Good news is that what ever they make next should not have the pressure to be a GAAS and so can actually make the game they want, as long as Microsoft keep their arms length approach.
1 thing that is disappointing, is the fact that Microsoft didn't at least make sure the game was taking advantage of all the Series console hardware features to make it look the best it can be, there should be a team of technical experts Microsoft send to all their studios making sure the games at least look the best they can be.

 

[Pakoe]

Prey flopped? Damn that's sad man, such an amazing game.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Everyone talking about Prey.

Support Wolfeye Studios and pick up Weird West if you really like immersive sims.

Arkane founder is working on an all-new game that's even 'more ambitious' than his last one

Raphael Colantonio's Wolfeye Studios is ramping up for something brand new.

www.pcgamer.com

 

[SF Kosmo]

Precisely. What's the rationale behind acquiring these publishers if you're not going to integrate them into your brand and foster a sense of unity? If they're going to maintain such a laissez-faire approach, what's the purpose of the purchase? Instead of outright buying them, they could just ink a long-term, exclusive 10-year contract for Game Pass games. This approach would make more sense if their main objective is merely to amass content, without particular concern about its nature.

I get the belief that letting teams maintain culture and management that is working. There are a lot of benefits to the limited integration model.

But that gets a little fuzzy when it comes to Bethesda, where you aren't just folding in dev studios, but a massive, sometimes cynical corporation that is sometimes at odds with studio leadership.

I am not sure where the central leadership of Bethesda fits into this operation. It seems a bit strange to me to have a publisher within a publisher.

 

[sankt-Antonio]

It's not an FPS for fucks sake.

Well done proving his point.

per Metacritic:
Genre(s): General,Action,Role-Playing,Shooter,Action RPG,First-Person,Arcade

Yeah, its a fps with rpg elements.

Edit:

Call of Duty for comparison:
Genre(s): Action,Shooter,First-Person,Tactical

 

[Topher]

Misleading thread title, the claim is that 70% of the people who worked on Prey left Arkane by the time Redfall came out.

Ah...you are right. In other words, 70% of the people who worked for Arkane Austin before May 2017. Six years ago.

 

[Heisenberg007]

I loved Crackdown 3!

You also pre-ordered Redfall, so I guess you just have terrible taste -- except for your taste in girls

 

[MALpractice311]

So I read the whole article. Sounds like a repeat of EA, Bioware, and Anthem, as well as what's probably happening at many other development studios at this very moment, such as Rocksteady (Suicide Squad) and Naughty Dog (Factions 2).

From all that we've learned, I present to you how to effectively murder a studio in 10 easy steps.

1. Publisher identifies a studio in it's possession known for single player games.
2. Publisher "strongly encourages" said single player studio to make a live service/GAAS multiplayer game.
3. Studio heads have no experience in this genre and therefore have no clear vision or guidance for their teams.
4. Game gets stalled in production due to lack of guidance.
5. Mass amounts of developers get frustrated from lack of guidance from studio heads, or never had any interest in making a GAAS, and thus quit in huge numbers.
6. Relatively inexperienced new hires try and cobble together something from their predecessors work, while still having no clear guidance from studio heads.
7. Studio heads believe game will come together at the 11th hour due to "(insert studio name here) magic."
8. Game is released after years of production when the publisher puts their foot down and demands it be released.
9. In reality, the game was actually thrown together at the last possible minute and is a soulless shell of a game that features absurd numbers of technical shortcomings and therefore bombs commerically and critically.
10. Studio has lost all it's key talent that made it what it once was and the publisher goes to find another studio to repeat the above.

 

[Riky]

We'll have to see what the next project from the studio looks like.

I think Redfall is a fun game overall, but it definitely feels like something that was retrofit from something else.

I get the feeling if MS was hands on with it they could have kept all the live service stuff, released it free to play and built content into it to save it like Sea Of Thieves and have success eventually like Rare.
Doubt it will be supported much now depsite what Arkane say due to its reception. Which is a shame as it's got interesting ideas which will never get fully realised.

 

[Edmund]

Thanks for saving the PS5, Phil.

 

[Kvally]

You also pre-ordered Redfall, so I guess you just have terrible taste -- except for your taste in girls

True. But I am also enjoying Forspoken after having pre-ordered it. Not really sure why my wife married me

 

[FunkMiller]

Lol, yeah I don't think that's going to work out the way they want. Looking at the responses to the latest GaaS releases or delays.. that aren't already an established franchise (aka Diablo 4).

Bungie has a chance, and at worst they can fall back on Destiny. The rest, I have my doubts.

I am absolutely here, with popcorn, for the fall of Jim Ryan, if he's pushing the GaaS gaming strategy as much as he appears to be.

 

[adamsapple]

Misleading thread title, the claim is that 70% of the people who worked on Prey left Arkane by the time Redfall came out.

Ah, the curse of misleading topic titles strike again.

True. But I am also enjoying Forspoken after having pre-ordered it. Not really sure why my wife married me

Are you rich ?

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Have I made my point, or do you still want to pretend that Microsoft is a shining example of management in the world of Xbox?

No one said MS is a “shining example of blah blah”, I simply said the incompetence narrative is bullshit. Which it is. And no, you haven’t made your point. I read the first three links and it’s GamePass in the first one and I don’t even know what that second link is, some guy named Chuck Norris on a forum. The third link has substance but it’s just substance of a few games having issues, which happens at all publishers. It’s not evidence of any vast problem of incompetence.

If you consider allowing Bungie to leave because they wanted to make different games and getting the Halo IP plus ODST and Reach in return to be incompetence then we can just agree to disagree. To me incompetence would have been to keep them on and force them to keep making Halo games.

Again, not saying MS doesn’t have issues with management. But the idea that most of their games have issues and they don’t know how to run studios and are mostly incompetent, nah, that’s a console warrior narrative.

 

[Topher]

I am absolutely here, with popcorn, for the fall of Jim Ryan, if he's pushing the GaaS gaming strategy as much as he appears to be.

Part of me thinks Gaas might be Sony's Don Mattrick/Xbox One moment.

 

[kuncol02]

I loved Crackdown 3!

 

[FunkMiller]

Part of me thinks Gaas might be Sony's Don Mattrick/Xbox One moment.

I 100% agree. That showcase last week felt like TV TV TV TV TV all over again, only with GaaS.

 

[MDSLKTR]

Im dying to hear senjutsu's take on this twist. He's been held hostage by redfall over last month.

 

[Krathoon]

It sounds like they simply did not have enough people.

 

[mckmas8808]

That $7.5 billion acquisition ain't lookin so hot.

It looks terrible so far. Not sure why MS didn't step in a just cancel the game now.

 

[Krathoon]

Just release the game as open source and have the community fix it up. lol.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

They do, hellblade, deathloop and control have all been successful

no they dont.

 

[Ansphn]

Seems to be a trend

 

[Kacho]

Just release the game as open source and have the community fix it up. lol.

Phil said the team was committed to supporting the game but who knows what that means. Beyond the technical issues the game is so fundamentally flawed I’m not sure it’s worth the effort. They were putting out damage control PR about removing the online requirement, but that won’t do much to drive interest at this point. Game seems like a lost cause very much like Halo Infinite.

 

[SportsFan581]

I get the feeling if MS was hands on with it they could have kept all the live service stuff, released it free to play and built content into it to save it like Sea Of Thieves and have success eventually like Rare.
Doubt it will be supported much now depsite what Arkane say due to its reception. Which is a shame as it's got interesting ideas which will never get fully realised.

I guess we'll never know. The one potential negative to projects like SoT is that they tie up studios almost indefinitely with that one project. It's been 5 years and it doesn't feel like Rare is close to releasing anything else. Though maybe they will surprise us with something at the showcase.

Arkane is good at the smaller scale single player games they do and it allows them to try different things and tell different stories. Redfall might have been a really solid single player shooter with a more linear game structure to it and a little more polish. But, like you said, maybe the true GaaS version might have been the better game as well. It's too bad that the game didn't have a clear direction from the start, the story and core ideas behind Redfall are quite interesting.

 

[Pasta la Vista]

20 years later the main dudes behind Deus Ex: Invisible War and the Area 51 games are still fucking up. Prey was only good because of Colantonio.

Yup. He recently made Weird West.
While not in the same scope as Prey or Dishonored 2 (and much lower budget, it's an indie game), it's a good game and you can see the DNA of his former games in it.
I recommend it for anyone that was a fan of Arkane's prior work. PC version has mods as well, like a first person mode that was created in-house. Wolfeye Studio is the name of the dev.

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

No wonder Deathloop and Redfall were not that inspired. Though we Youngblood, FO76 and Redfall it has always bee clear that Bethesda is bleeding money.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Im dying to hear senjutsu's take on this twist. He's been held hostage by redfall over last month.

"Redfall got bad review scores because it's cool to criticize Xbox right now. But it's a really fun game if you give it a chance. And if Arkane's B-team can make such a fun game, imagine what they would do when they are fully integrated with Xbox. Be scared, Sony, be very scared." -- SenjutsuSage (probably).

I don't think I'd be that far off ^

 

[The Tourmaline Gorilla]

Bungie left because they were being forced by Microsoft to make games that they didn't want to make. Bungie would have been fine if Microsoft had just let 343 Industries take over the Halo series and let Bungie work on different games. Bungie left because of Microsoft. This is well documented, and even Phil Spencer has admitted that Microsoft was the reason that Bungie left.

Acquisitions themselves aren't the issue. The issue is overall mismanagement. This impacts acquired studios as well, because Microsoft isn't properly managing their studios in general. Stop looking at Microsoft's management of their Xbox studios with rose-colored glasses.

I Have Some Concerns About Xbox And Game Pass

It has been a tumultuous uh, decade for Xbox, on the whole, after the huge success of the 360 era.

www.forbes.com

*>XBox is a great example of horrible mismanagement that cost Microsoft many bil... | Hacker News

news.ycombinator.com

What is Going on With Xbox Game Studios?

Despite advancements like Game Pass and major acquisitions, Xbox's first-party development still has its share of problems.

gamingbolt.com

Microsoft Xbox Loses Its Way as 'Halo' Stumbles

Microsoft's game studios were among the hardest hit in the company's recent round of layoffs. Developers are expressing their frustration.

www.barrons.com

Xbox Execs Admit Mismanagement Of Fable Developer Lionhead Studios Was One Of Their "Biggest Missteps"

Microsoft Xbox executives past and present have admitted that the way they handled Lionhead Studios was one of their "biggest missteps."

boundingintocomics.com

On Xbox, caveats, and mismanaged expectations

The Redfall controversy is another example of Xbox seeding snippets of disappointment.

www.windowscentral.com

Is Xbox Mismanaging Their Studios?

Podcast Episode · Defining Duke: An Xbox Podcast · 07/03/2022 · 3h 47m

podcasts.apple.com

Xbox studio ‘Undead Labs’ faces allegations of mismanagement - KitGuru

Xbox has faced plenty of criticism in the past for its heavy-handed approach to studio and project m

www.kitguru.net

Xbox Games Studios Boss Responds To Reports of Crunch At Bethesda

A report from Kotaku details his answer to employee concerns at an all-hands Q&A.

www.gamespot.com

Have I made my point, or do you still want to pretend that Microsoft is a shining example of management in the world of Xbox?

Bro, your initial post highlighted Lion Head, 343i, Bungie and Xbox Entertainment, oh and Black Tusk. That's 5 studios, out of how many, out of how many years? Seriously, name more. Okay, let's add Arkane Austin to the list (more a Zenimax blunder than a MS blunder, but I'll give that to you).

I don't know if anyone's saying MS management is perfect (they're not), but the narrative you're going with only works when you ignore everything else, and ook at it in a very myopic and isolated view.

I won't even argue those studios; I'll just go along with you and say they're huge fuck ups and big examples of mismanagement on MS's side. I'll exclude Xbox Entertainment and Black Tusk. Xbox Entertainment because they were supposed to be focused on interactive entertainment, conjoined with Kinect and the production of TV shows and movies, and when MS repositioned their focus on games/games/games when Phil took over, he shut that down, along with Kinect. It's arguably if this was a good or bad idea. Seems to have worked out fine.

Black Tusk wasn't mismanaged; they were rebranded as The Coalition, and given Gears of War to work on. If memory serves me right, this wasn't handled in a dictatorial way. They were asked what title they wanted to work on, and they chose Gears, and abandoned the new IP concept that they had. Is this gross mismanagement? Maybe. But, while Gears isn't as strong an IP as it was yesteryear, it's still doing pretty well and reviews well too. I wouldn't really call that gross mismanagement though. So, that leaves Lion Head, 343i, Bungie and...maybe one or two others.

The other MS studios seem to be doing really well, releasing games to great reception (even Halo Infinite had great reception, up to a point); from Turn 10, Playground Games, their work with Asobo, Double Fine, Obsidian, Mojang (while they didn't create it, they managed to steer it into being the world's best selling game, period). Even with the huge lapses of releases by Rare, under MS's lead, they've managed to fully redeem themselves, and they've had major successes even in the 360 days with Kinect. Sea of Thieves today is their best selling game and has one of the most active online communities in gaming's history.

Sure, they haven't been hitting perfect strikes every time, but this narrative that all they've managed to muster is mismanaged garbage and failure everywhere is overblown spin.

I can't comment on the management successes of newly acquired studios like Ninja Theory, other Zenimax studios, etc., because we're still yet to see what becomes of them. I'll judge them on their merits, when they've produced substantial content for them to be judged on.

 

[Joshmyersbv]

Honestly I'm not surprised, Arkane has made one good game in their existence and that's it. Their games would have sold more if their art style didn't look like dog shit.

Technically their games look good but artistically their games look fucking ugly, especially the characters. Prey is overrated too, like who wants to spends 8 hours hitting black goo with a wrench? Based on its sales not many.

 

[ahtlas7]

insight into the obvious…
Hmmm.
I wonder how much Skyrim talent remains at Bethesda?

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

I loved Crackdown 3!

Crackdown 3 campaign was very fun. I’ll never understand the 60% meta. I wonder what effect all of the cloud nonsense played into that.

 

[Hawkeye2890]

This is why its better to create devs then buy them. There is no guarantee anyone will stick around.

 

[Fake]

Hats off to the devs who had the integrity to leave when faced with making the next GAAS piece of shit.

Now thats a move I respect.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

That $7.5 billion acquisition ain't lookin so hot.

Big acquisitions seldom work out, especially if you can’t retain the talent

Bethesda’s 7.5B acquisition probably depends highly on how well they leverage elder scrolls and fallout IP

 

[GHG]

per Metacritic:
Genre(s): General,Action,Role-Playing,Shooter,Action RPG,First-Person,Arcade

Yeah, its a fps with rpg elements.

Edit:

Call of Duty for comparison:
Genre(s): Action,Shooter,First-Person,Tactical

Just because a game is first person it doesn't make it an FPS.

It's an immersive-sim, through and through. If that means nothing to you then I'd advise you get acquainted with the genre, some of the best gaming experiences to be had are available in that genre.

 

[GymWolf]

Rip arkane.

 

[The Stig]

From Prey

to Redfall

...................FUCK.

 

[sankt-Antonio]

Just because a game is first person it doesn't make it an FPS.

It's an immersive-sim, through and through. If that means nothing to you then I'd advise you get acquainted with the genre, some of the best gaming experiences to be had are available in that genre.

Its a fps with added stuff. I know, I played it. The worst controlling fps on a game pad. I wanted to love it, but its so shit on consoles - unplayable imo.

 

[GHG]

Its a fps with added stuff. I know, I played it. The worst controlling fps on a game pad. I wanted to love it, but its so shit on consoles - unplayable imo.

My god, it's a game you can very easily complete without ever needing to shoot a single gun. Guns should be your last resort and last resort only. "I just wanna turn my brain off and shoot shit" - the modern console gamer.

They should have just made it PC exclusive and called it a day. Clearly so many of you did not deserve a game like this.

 

[ReBurn]

When you don't cherry-pick the good parts of Xbox, you see an overall picture of poor management. This is why that narrative exists. Because it's true.

You are cherry-picking the bad parts to build a picture of poor management. What's the difference?

 

[kaizenkko]

Five years from now, will we see the same kind of news about Naughty Dog and its multiplayer project?

 

[Robb]

Sad to hear, but it doesn’t surprise me if people left during the development of RedFall. The concept didn’t fit with their previous output at all and probably isn’t what most wanted to make.

I’d probably leave too if I was forced to make stuff I didn’t care for and could get a bigger paycheck elsewhere.