PleaseDontBanMe
Banned
I'm not religious at all btw but this thought just popped into my head
ready, set, debate
ready, set, debate
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Religious folks, if Satan was to repent and ask God for forgiveness would he be let into heaven?
- Thread starter PleaseDontBanMe
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PleaseDontBanMe
Banned
so if the devil repents and goes to heaven (which seems like the logical thing to do imo, and is something God wouldn't expect)
that would be his loophole into heaven? (if we're going by the christian doctrine)
How awkward would that be?
or do those rules only apply to humans and not angels/fallen angels?
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jufonuk
not tag worthy
Watch Dogma
PleaseDontBanMe
Banned
so aliens can't get into heaven?
Ornlu
Banned
Maybe? Is Heaven a place on the physical plane?
PleaseDontBanMe
Banned
i think its in a different dimension, possibly the 4th
AV
We ain't outta here in ten minutes, we won't need no rocket to fly through space
That's literally the plot of Dogma. You should watch Dogma, it's great.
Blitzmangoman
Member
Always find it funny when people say Satan is the ruler of hell. He only has the power to whisper into your heart and guide you to do sins.
As far as I know in the islamic religion he will burn in hellfire for eternity, also he never was an angel, he is a jinn, created from fire. Angels obey every command of God.
This stuff fascinates me.
As far as I know in the islamic religion he will burn in hellfire for eternity, also he never was an angel, he is a jinn, created from fire. Angels obey every command of God.
This stuff fascinates me.
Stilton Disco
Member
From what I've read on the various different version of Abrahamic faiths, there's no definitive answer to what exactly hell is and whether that's actually where Lucifer ended up, or if it is, whether that's also where you go when you die should you fail to follow God/Jesus/Muhammad/Joseph Smith's teachings.
If I had to guess (and going primarily with Christianity), because Lucifer was cast out, not killed, possessed free will, and assuming he was genuine in his repentance, truly seeing the error of his past actions and regretting them wholly, then I'd say maybe, depending on which version of God we're talking about.
Specifically the Christian God where Jesus is involved as saviour and the purest form of gods love, alongside his father in heaven? Then I'd say yes.
If I had to guess (and going primarily with Christianity), because Lucifer was cast out, not killed, possessed free will, and assuming he was genuine in his repentance, truly seeing the error of his past actions and regretting them wholly, then I'd say maybe, depending on which version of God we're talking about.
Specifically the Christian God where Jesus is involved as saviour and the purest form of gods love, alongside his father in heaven? Then I'd say yes.
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DunDunDunpachi
Banned
Dunno. I only know about salvation for humankind. The bible doesn't talk a lot about the destiny of non human spirits, only hints at it.
God created us as freewill creatures, though, and there will inevitably be at least one or two beings that insist on their own rightness no matter what paradise or punishment is offered for changing their mind.
God created us as freewill creatures, though, and there will inevitably be at least one or two beings that insist on their own rightness no matter what paradise or punishment is offered for changing their mind.
Ash Sparrow
Banned
No we already know he wont repent, because we know what its fate is. satan is too prideful to ever admit he is going to be defeated. Although it knows it will lose, its takes pleasure in taking as many with it as it can.
#Phonepunk#
Banned
yes but if so it will be at the end of time.
evil is not a thing in itself, it is the absence of God. the flames of Hell are just the glorious light of God. even demons in Hell are tortured by the fact that they are distanced from God.
no distance is too great.
evil is not a thing in itself, it is the absence of God. the flames of Hell are just the glorious light of God. even demons in Hell are tortured by the fact that they are distanced from God.
no distance is too great.
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Northeastmonk
Gold Member
I grew up thinking the book of Revelations was going to be some big event. As I got older I learned it was basically a metaphor for the fall of Rome? I really don’t know what to believe about it. It was an interesting take on the end of times. The beast rising from the sea. The Angel locking Satan in hell.
What confuses me is that if God knew this whole thing would have happened, why didn’t he put a stop to it. He could snap his fingers and make Satan go away. No one judges God right? God could change Satan’s mind if he wanted to.
why does there have to be a opposing side? If God is the Alpha and Omega then there’s nothing there to oppose him if he commands the winds and the seas.
What confuses me is that if God knew this whole thing would have happened, why didn’t he put a stop to it. He could snap his fingers and make Satan go away. No one judges God right? God could change Satan’s mind if he wanted to.
why does there have to be a opposing side? If God is the Alpha and Omega then there’s nothing there to oppose him if he commands the winds and the seas.
Ornlu
Banned
According to what? Where does God promise redemption to fallen angels?
PleaseDontBanMe
Banned
DunDunDunpachi
Banned
Northeastmonk
a lot of different ways to answer that question. I would say it is because God is our loving Father. He wanted us to exist, knowing that we might disobey. It seems he would rather suffer insult and pain because of his creations rejecting him for the chance of coming into a relationship with other freewill creatures like himself. Humans are called "imagers of God" in the Bible. Freewill means that we are free to pursue all the things antithetical to God.
#Phonepunk#
Banned
God's mercy is infinite even in the face of the worst kind of evil. look at Jesus and you have your answer.
it is mercy that we exist at all. the world does not exist without pain, yet he allows it to continue turning. this is how you know He is a Just Judge. he gives mercy even to the sinful.
you can "why didn't God do this?" all day long until you end up at the beginning of time, and decide to stop all pain by not creating the universe. why didn't he stop all suffering at the start? because of mercy.
He is not cold hearted or we wouldn't be here at all. that is Love.
it is mercy that we exist at all. the world does not exist without pain, yet he allows it to continue turning. this is how you know He is a Just Judge. he gives mercy even to the sinful.
you can "why didn't God do this?" all day long until you end up at the beginning of time, and decide to stop all pain by not creating the universe. why didn't he stop all suffering at the start? because of mercy.
He is not cold hearted or we wouldn't be here at all. that is Love.
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Lanrutcon
Member
It took me like the first page of Google to answer that question. "Merciful to all", "Abundant in mercy", "mercy everlasting", etc etc. One of his main themes is mercy, and the Bible can't shut up about it.
He'd pretty much have to let the Morningstar in if there was repentance.
But at the same time, the book that tells us God has infinite mercy is also the one that tells us how the story ends.
(if you believe in that kind of thing)
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Goro Majima
Kitty Genovese Member
I kinda feel like the retort to this could fill a book because it quickly gets into free will, God’s will, and why some people believe in total free will and others believe in the election of the saints (predestination). Really one could fill a library with amount of books written on those subjects since nearly every major theologian for centuries upon centuries has wrestled with these concepts.
I believe in predestination so it’s a somewhat easy solution. Satan would never repent because God hasn’t given him the grace to repent. Satan’s heart is willfully and stubbornly hardened against such an act. This is the ultra short message board friendly version.
I believe in predestination so it’s a somewhat easy solution. Satan would never repent because God hasn’t given him the grace to repent. Satan’s heart is willfully and stubbornly hardened against such an act. This is the ultra short message board friendly version.
Ornlu
Banned
I'm asking why you think the mercy that God extends to all people, also extends to angels. Is there anything in the Bible that has lead you to believe that?
I think Catholic teaching is that demons can never change their minds, owing to their spiritual nature and direct knowledge of realities we as men only glimpse. I think it is an article of faith that Satan is damned. St. Thomas Aquinas has written about this, I think.
But of couse, Pope Francis thinks that no one is ever truly damned, except Americans who vote for Donald Trump or Europeans who refuse to take in millions of African Muslims in their countries. So I guess the debate rages on...
Lanrutcon
Member
Yes, all those Bible quote snippets I posted.
You added the "people" part. Bible just says "all".
#Phonepunk#
Banned
angels are already "saved". they already live in the Kingdom of God. they don't need saving.
yet they do not have free will. they did not choose to be saved. that is a gift God gave to humans alone. the freedom to choose.
so even thought angels may be closer to him, there is a special Love between God and humanity that supersedes all. if you love something, set it free.
yet they do not have free will. they did not choose to be saved. that is a gift God gave to humans alone. the freedom to choose.
so even thought angels may be closer to him, there is a special Love between God and humanity that supersedes all. if you love something, set it free.
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JimiNutz
Banned
Don't get hung up on the fallen angel bullshit.
Forgiveness is kind of a big deal to 'God' :
Psalm 103:12 "As far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us."
Ephesians 1:7 "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace."
1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."
Daniel 9:9 "The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him."
Isaiah 43:25 “I, even I, am he who blots out
your transgressions, for my own sake,
and remembers your sins no more ..."
Isaiah 1: 18 “Come now, let us settle the matter,”
says the Lord. 'Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.'"
Micah 7:18-19 "Who is a God like you,
who pardons sin and forgives the transgression
of the remnant of his inheritance?
You do not stay angry forever
but delight to show mercy.
19 You will again have compassion on us;
you will tread our sins underfoot
and hurl all our iniquities into the depths of the sea."
Hebrews 10:17 “Then he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.”
Jeremiah 31: 34 “For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."
Why wouldn't he forgive Satan/Lucifer or whatever we want to call him? Wouldn't that be out of character for an all loving and forgiving God?
MetalAlien
Banned
Angels are not people they can't repent.
Weiji
Banned
I’ve always felt that if god is all knowing then he created Satan knowing exactly what Satan would do. It was intended to be that way, not some cosmic accident.
Satan would never ask for forgiveness because he was built for the express purpose of running hell.
I would suspect that with infinite time to contemplate it Satan probably understands this as well.
Satan would never ask for forgiveness because he was built for the express purpose of running hell.
I would suspect that with infinite time to contemplate it Satan probably understands this as well.
Ornlu
Banned
The books of the Bible are written to the Hebrews, and later the people of the world. If the Bible is meant to be read by fallen angels, then sure. If people are the intended audience, then one would assume that is who is included.
No? I don't know of any example of the forgiveness granted through Christ being extended toward anything other than humans. I appreciate your thought process, though.
Hebrews 2:16-18 : "For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. Therefore he has to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted."
It's an interesting thought experiment, and it would be wrong of me to say that God would absolutely never forgive a fallen angel. However, there is nothing Biblical to say that He would do so, either.
JimiNutz
Banned
Yes it's all open to interpretation as it's not explicitly clear either way. There's actually not that much concrete information about angels in general.
I always view the Bible as a collection of stories and myths (since they were translated so many times over so many years into so many different languages) and think it's a mistake to take much of anything written as factual.
The lessons and teachings are important but not the fine details. To me it's very clear that God is loving and forgiving and so I believe that he would apply these traits to everything that genuinely wanted forgiveness and love. I appreciate that others have a different reading or interpretation though. Take from it what you will.
Lanrutcon
Member
iconmaster
Banned
Repentance isn't sufficient on its own to atone for sin. For Christ to redeem fallen humanity it was necessary that he himself become human and assume a human nature. "For that which He has not assumed He has not healed; but that which is united to His Godhead is also saved." (Gregory Nazianzen)
The only feasible avenue for Satan would be for the Son to take on an angelic nature and atone for the sins of angelkind. This seems unlikely for a host of reasons.
The only feasible avenue for Satan would be for the Son to take on an angelic nature and atone for the sins of angelkind. This seems unlikely for a host of reasons.
BlackOlivesMatter
Banned
Alanis Morissette is infallible, so no
Yeah, I'm gonna nope on that. If you're petty enough to create eternal damnation for those who don't follow your every asinine rule, you're not good to all, you're a sociopathic asshole.
It's Jeff
Banned
I remember hearing or reading about this some years ago. So the angels are apparently creations of pure will and have the non-linear view of time that God sees. Some theologians posited that the angels could see that would take the form of a man and wouldn't accept that God would become a form lower than themselves. The theory is that they knew the permanent ramifications of their choice and have fully accepted - and embraced - that decision for eternity because they could see the end result as they chose.
So to your original question, I think he'd be forgiven but no fallen angel would ever seek it.
So to your original question, I think he'd be forgiven but no fallen angel would ever seek it.
EverydayBeast
ChatGPT 0.1
Satan is easily in heaven for 20 years heaven was angles, sunshine it's very easily to see Satan in heaven. Too interesting of a character.
Lanrutcon
Member
Oh, I don't really have a horse in this race. I just find it odd that there's several quotes from the Bible that support a "yes" on the OP's question...but since "the Bible is open to interpretation" you can just nope those quotes away and interpret them to mean whatever you want.
I interpret the last one to mean that God thinks it's bullshit that DE_Dust got retired.
SurprisedPikachu
Member
The entire point of hell is a complete and total separation from God. So no, even if Satan wanted to repent God made it very clear - you are never coming back home.
eddie4
Genuinely Generous
religion is full of loopholes. they didn't think this through when they wrote it. It's like a bad book. most religious people always have the default answer when you ask them anything about god, "well, it's because he's god." that's like answering "because" to "why?" get some better answers, that's why people don't believe you.
#Phonepunk#
Banned
^
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poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
I always loved Michael Moorcroft's Von Beck books where the Devil wants to reconcile with God and is searching for the holy grail meanwhile the demonic generals are rebelling against him and trying to stop him. He is a melancholy figure who thought he was kinda doing God's will by trying to seduce and turn humanity but has started to have doubts.
S
SLoWMoTIoN
Unconfirmed Member
People still think Lucifer is Satan? Cries in Mike Pence.