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[Taxexemption]

My understanding is yes, but this would never happen so it's a pointless question. Angels are created beings, they think using logical principles that were given to them for the tasks they were created to perform. Once they have made a decision, it's a permanent decision. Their entire method of thinking is akin to doing math, so when they come across a question of morality or loyalty it's as easy as 1 + 1 = 2 and they can never run that problem in such a way that it will equal anything other than 2.


Humans are unique in that in life we have both a body and a soul, and those things interact with each other. Once you die, all that remains is soul, and it's ability to change is basically nothing. After death you become something much closer to what the angels are. It's not that you didn't figure out the correct version of God to worship or whatever, it's that God and his angels were reaching out to you in various ways to try to bring you closer to what is good, and over the course of your life with your free will you made decisions that led you away from that path. Fundamentally you either recognize and pursue what is good to the extent that you are able to do so, or you do not, and the moment you die that reality is cemented until the end of time.

1: Saint Michael and the Angels

www.churchmilitant.com

 

[Ornlu]

People still think Lucifer is Satan? Cries in Mike Pence.

​

 

[bender]

If God were a chicken, would he eat eggs?

 

[Pol Pot]

Santa Claus could pardon the Easter Bunny for it's crimes against humanity and I would still roast that fucker and serve it to the tooth fairy.

So, no.

 

[Harlock]

 

[Bolivar687]

I heard a homily on this by the pastor at an FSSP parish. He said that unlike humans, who are constantly choosing their eternal fate at every moment, the angels had a choice at one moment in time. I believe some of the Saints wrote that this happened when they learned the divine plan for the Incarnation, Crucifixion, and Resurrection. They couldn't handle it and disagreed with it so much that their choice is eternal.

Yeah, I'm gonna nope on that. If you're petty enough to create eternal damnation for those who don't follow your every asinine rule, you're not good to all, you're a sociopathic asshole.

It's not eternal damnation for not following every asinine rule. There are mortal sins that separate us from our life-giving relationship with God, for which we need formal penance and reconciliation, like breaking one of the ten commandments. Then there is the daily struggle in our lives of faith, such as against the seven deadly sins, that we can overcome through receiving communion or through smaller penance.

religion is full of loopholes. they didn't think this through when they wrote it. It's like a bad book. most religious people always have the default answer when you ask them anything about god, "well, it's because he's god." that's like answering "because" to "why?" get some better answers, that's why people don't believe you.

It's heavy handed to ask most people the gotcha questions because they probably weren't trained in theology.

 

[Kimahri]

I heard a homily on this by the pastor at an FSSP parish. He said that unlike humans, who are constantly choosing their eternal fate at every moment, the angels had a choice at one moment in time. I believe some of the Saints wrote that this happened when they learned the divine plan for the Incarnation, Crucifixion, and Resurrection. They couldn't handle it and disagreed with it so much that their choice is eternal.



It's not eternal damnation for not following every asinine rule. There are mortal sins that separate us from our life-giving relationship with God, for which we need formal penance and reconciliation, like breaking one of the ten commandments. Then there is the daily struggle in our lives of faith, such as against the seven deadly sins, that we can overcome through receiving communion or through smaller penance.



It's heavy handed to ask most people the gotcha questions because they probably weren't trained in theology.

I'm not a believer, so you could talk about the gods on Olympus like they were real and I'd have the same reaction. It's nonsense to me.

Great stories though. My library is probably half about myth and mythologym

 

[Bolivar687]

I'm not a believer, so you could talk about the gods on Olympus like they were real and I'd have the same reaction. It's nonsense to me.

Great stories though. My library is probably half about myth and mythologym

That's too bad.

 

[kevm3]

I grew up thinking the book of Revelations was going to be some big event. As I got older I learned it was basically a metaphor for the fall of Rome? I really don’t know what to believe about it. It was an interesting take on the end of times. The beast rising from the sea. The Angel locking Satan in hell.
What confuses me is that if God knew this whole thing would have happened, why didn’t he put a stop to it. He could snap his fingers and make Satan go away. No one judges God right? God could change Satan’s mind if he wanted to.

why does there have to be a opposing side? If God is the Alpha and Omega then there’s nothing there to oppose him if he commands the winds and the seas.

It's not a metaphor for the fall of Rome but rather the end times, which we are entering into now. The system to buy and sell only if you have the mark of the beast is coming true now, via mechanisms like rfid chipping

 

[Tesseract]

hell is the absence of god and satan is its master

they appear to be inextricably linked

 

[Kimahri]

That's too bad.

Why?

 

[TheContact]

In Christianity I believe the only way you can’t get repentance is if you commit a crime against the Holy Ghost.

 

[Ornlu]

Why?

Maybe it means you didn't read the thread title?

 

[Bolivar687]

Why?

Because God is real and his son Jesus Christ has irreversibly changed humanity, whether you believe in him or not. The laws of physics demand that the reality we experience could not exist without an uncreated creator. The book of Daniel wrote that the fourth foreign empire to subjugate the Kingdom of Judah would be overthrown by a God-man who would be worshipped by all peoples for all time, and the infrastructure of that empire would be given to his followers. After Babylon, Persia, and the Seleucids, that really happened in history hundreds of years after it was written with Rome, Jesus Christ, and the Catholic Church.

My faith in him has enriched my own life in so many ways compared to how it was without him. I've lived both secular and as a practicing, traditionalist Catholic. It's no contest - orthodox Catholicism and the interior life it fosters are far better. It's too bad that you're intentionally choosing to forego all this.

 

[Singular7]

Satan means the "opposer", he is also called the "Father of the lie" and the one who introduced the idea of death to the hyper-reality (this universe, and what lies outside of it)

He is the cause of the deception on this planet.

Quite the hurdle

Strictly speaking, if he were to humble himself and ask God to apply Jesus' as a replacement to him, perhaps God would forgive him.

"You, Lord, are good, and ready to forgive, And abundant in loving-kindness to all who call upon You." - Psalm 86:5

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." - 1 John 1:9

The kill-shot:

"He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

- John 8:44

He's toast.

BTW: Satan is currently in heaven (the hyper-reality) ... he's thrown down to earth for the final segment of human history, global war, etc. See Rev 12 / 13

"The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. " - Revelation 12:9

 

[Kimahri]

Because God is real and his son Jesus Christ has irreversibly changed humanity, whether you believe in him or not. The laws of physics demand that the reality we experience could not exist without an uncreated creator. The book of Daniel wrote that the fourth foreign empire to subjugate the Kingdom of Judah would be overthrown by a God-man who would be worshipped by all peoples for all time, and the infrastructure of that empire would be given to his followers. After Babylon, Persia, and the Seleucids, that really happened in history hundreds of years after it was written with Rome, Jesus Christ, and the Catholic Church.

My faith in him has enriched my own life in so many ways compared to how it was without him. I've lived both secular and as a practicing, traditionalist Catholic. It's no contest - orthodox Catholicism and the interior life it fosters are far better. It's too bad that you're intentionally choosing to forego all this for no real reason at all.

See, this right here is the main problem I have with most religious types I've met.

You know nothing about me, yet you think you're informed enough to make a statement like that.

 

[Azelover]

Well, I guess I'm not religious anymore because I don't believe in the duality of Satan and God like that.

Everybody has to come to terms with what they believe. And to me, it's not about two deities that are the opposite of each other. Instead, we got cycles of creation and destruction. They're both God, in a way.

But you can believe whatever you want. Personally, I'd advise NOT to go with what a pastor or Church has to say to you. Because they have a lot to gain from misinformation.

Just make up your own mind.

 

[DESTROYA]

OP are you asking because you found a girl you like is a satanist?

 

[MetalAlien]

"___ was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in ___"

Hey now let's leave women out of this.

 

[V4skunk]

I'm not religious at all btw but this thought just popped into my head

ready, set, debate

No.

 

[Tesseract]

OP are you asking because you found a girl you like is a satanist?

 

[Bolivar687]

See, this right here is the main problem I have with most religious types I've met.

You know nothing about me, yet you think you're informed enough to make a statement like that.

I'm sorry about that and removed it, I really shouldn't have taken that kind of combative tone with the post and the message I was trying to convey.

 

[DESTROYA]

Only asking because of his other thread

Anyone else have absolutely zero success with the art of macking?

or is it just me? whenever I attempt to lay my pimp game down I either get banned from a chat or laughed at I will be a 40 yr old virgin next year

www.neogaf.com

 

[Compsiox]

If the devil is responsible for all the evil that has taken place since humanity has existed, how the fuck could he do anything to make up for that. I say fuck no.

 

[Rival]

Q

 

[BigBooper]

There is a sin in Matthew 12:31 which the Bible says man will not be forgiven for. It is debatable what the sin actually entails, but it doesn't say anything about angels or other being being forgiven or not from it.

We really have no idea, because the entire sacrifice for forgiveness of sin was not for any other beings but man. Jesus didn't live life as an angel and suffer for their sins. With/by God all things are possible though. There would be nothing to stop God from doing whatever he wanted.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

I'm not religious at all btw but this thought just popped into my head

ready, set, debate

Well Jews don't really have the whole Devil thing and Hell (Gehinnom) is just a temporary punishment.

But uh.... If I'm not mistaken, Old Scratch actually walks the Earth in Christianity and is not in Hell.... Yet.

That's why him and his demonic horde can influence things, etc.

Why he can't repent or why the other Fallen Angels cannot, I dunno. My guess is they're just consumed with pure hatred for humanity.

And maybe they all just still believe that old "better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven" stuff.

I dunno.

 

[just_some_nut]

This is more of a trap than an earnest question. Satan is the embodiment of evil; you're essentially asking if "evil" will ever change to "good"--and perhaps it will at the endgame. Until then, we as imperfect humans are given many chances at redemption and should strive towards it always.

 

[PleaseDontBanMe]

In Christianity I believe the only way you can’t get repentance is if you commit a crime against the Holy Ghost.

how would someone commit a crime against a ghost?

with this maybe?

 

[Dai Kaiju]

People still think Lucifer is Satan? Cries in Mike Pence.

What lead you to believe they are different?

Anyway, he doesn't "do" remorse.

The entire point of hell is a complete and total separation from God. So no, even if Satan wanted to repent God made it very clear - you are never coming back home.

He isn't in hell though.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

What lead you to believe they are different?

Anyway, he would have to be


He isn't in hell though.

Lucifer (name) was added in the revision. Before that he was merely associated with Venus but since his name means light bringer they just sorta used it as a name for Satan mixing everything up. He was also a deity in older religions so the mistranslation may have been done on purpose.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

This is more of a trap than an earnest question. Satan is the embodiment of evil; you're essentially asking if "evil" will ever change to "good"--and perhaps it will at the endgame. Until then, we as imperfect humans are given many chances at redemption and should strive towards it always.

Maybe not so much a trap but they're attributing human thought patterns to beings that aren't human.

Of course again most people still think of Angels as blonde haired guys with feathery wings and swords and not as spinning wheels of fire with hundreds of eyes.

 

[Thurible]

Theologically speaking, the devil, demons, and damned souls in hell cannot repent. Once a being chooses to eternally separate from G-d they can no longer go back and ask for repentance. G-d is the proginetor of everything and His very being is the essence of love. Without G-d there cannot be any love nor desire for love, there is only the absence of it. Likewise, once a person is in heaven they cannot be ordered to do anything against G-d. There is no hatred, no evil, nor any desire for evil in the person in this case.

 

[Rran]

I mean, if souls in Hell can't get out via repentance, why should the Prince of Darkness?

 

[Singular7]

What lead you to believe they are different?

Anyway, he doesn't "do" remorse.


He isn't in hell though.

Technically our idea of "hell" comes from Greco-Roman religion.

If we're talking about Christianity or Judaism, "hell" is actually "sheol" (Hebrew) or "gehenna" (Greek) which are just metaphors for the state of non-consciousness we call death. For example, "gehenna", which some translations render as "hell" was the burning garbage dump outside of Jerusalem that Jesus used as a metaphor.

The idea of a burning inferno are concepts borrowed from the clone religions prevalent from Egypt -> Rome and adopted by the early Roman church system, and popularized with art and imagery.

There is no hell in Christianity, just non-existence; the word doesn't appear in the Bible either.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Technically our idea of "hell" comes from Greco-Roman religion.

If we're talking about Christianity or Judaism, "hell" is actually "sheol" (Hebrew) or "gehenna" (Greek) which is just the state of non-consciousness we call death.

The idea of a burning inferno are concepts borrowed from the clone religions prevalent from Egypt -> Rome and adopted by the early Roman church system, and popularized with art and imagery.

There is no hell in Christianity, just non-existence; the word doesn't appear in the Bible either.

There was a guy on Coast to Coast AM a couple months ago talking about this very subject and he pretty much said everything you did.

Iirc he said the whole idea of a 'soul' as many understand it has been misconstrued too.

 

[Singular7]

There was a guy on Coast to Coast AM a couple months ago talking about this very subject and he pretty much said everything you did.

Readily and easily verifiable too. When Rome started to become Christianized, there was a melding of Roman paganism with the new ideas from Israel.

"Christmas" is just repackaged Saturnalia, the trinity is repackaged pagan trinities, etc. Basically we need to delete whatever is considered Christian doctrine, and go straight to the source of the Greek and Hebrew book collection we call the Bible for a reference point.

The idea of "going to heaven" is also just repackaged Greek religion.

 

[TindalosPup]

Satan was cast out of heaven because he refused to serve and put mankind before God when God requested him to do so. He believed us inferior and unworthy.

Until he stops hating us, he won't find forgiveness. He's already vowed to never put man before God and to work until the end of days to prove the weakness and inherent sin of the human race.

It's like 99% of his existence at this point, I don't know he'll ever walk that back. On top of that he has sinned beyond this, he has worked against mankind for multiple millennia, he'd need to be forgiven for so much more than just his original sin of defying his creator and hating man. I think simple repentance would not be enough, he'd have to serve the good of man for at least as long as he's worked against it for forgiveness (but that's only my theory of the theoretical forgiveness of Lucifer).

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Readily and easily verifiable too. When Rome started to become Christianized, there was a melding of Roman paganism with the new ideas from Israel.

"Christmas" is just repackaged Saturnalia, the trinity is repackaged pagan trinities, etc. Basically we need to delete whatever is considered Christian doctrine, and go straight to the source of the Greek and Hebrew book collection we call the Bible for a reference point.

The idea of "going to heaven" is also just repackaged Greek religion.

IIRC the same guest said the whole idea of the 'soul' has been misconstrued too.

Those who are saved physically return to eternal life on a paradise on Earth like many Jews (if I understand correctly) believe.

 

[Kenpachii]

it cannot if satan can move into heaven, heaven and hell are one.

 

[Singular7]

IIRC the same guest said the whole idea of the 'soul' has been misconstrued too.

Those who are saved physically return to eternal life on a paradise on Earth like many Jews (if I understand correctly) believe.

Exactly right!

“Happy are the mild-tempered, since they will inherit the earth." - Jesus, Matthew 5:5, ~32 CE

"But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace" - David, Psalm 37:11, ~1100 BCE

The timeline is in Revelation 21, the final chapter of the collection.

 

[Spukc]

Liberate tutemet ex inferis.

Someone been watching sci fi movies

 

[Foamy]

Would this mean a job opening in management?
Benefits? Parking space?

 

[MHubert]

Yeah, I'm gonna nope on that. If you're petty enough to create eternal damnation for those who don't follow your every asinine rule, you're not good to all, you're a sociopathic asshole.

Not if said damnation is a natural consequence of your own making. Why would you go to heaven if you are willfully going the opposite direction?

 

[Kimahri]

Not if said damnation is a natural consequence of your own making. Why would you go to heaven if you are willfully going the opposite direction?

That could make sense if there was any clear sense in what makes you go to hell. But there are myriad interpretations on how to end up in hell, what evil is, not to mention what hell is.

But if we go with the classical hell being eternal damnation and torture or whatever, and I'm gonna still go with god being a sociopathic asshole, because people change, people learn from mistakes, and if you can go from good to bad and vice versa in the short time you're alive, it is aboslute madness and evil to condemn someone to an eternity of firey brimstone for something that happened in your tiny, tiny life.

 

[Ornlu]

That could make sense if there was any clear sense in what makes you go to hell. But there are myriad interpretations on how to end up in hell, what evil is, not to mention what hell is.

But if we go with the classical hell being eternal damnation and torture or whatever, and I'm gonna still go with god being a sociopathic asshole, because people change, people learn from mistakes, and if you can go from good to bad and vice versa in the short time you're alive, it is aboslute madness and evil to condemn someone to an eternity of firey brimstone for something that happened in your tiny, tiny life.

So continue your thought experiment. If that is the case, with the creator being a madman...that still assumes that a creator exists, and is the only higher power than man. Thus you owe your very existence to this being, whether your own mortal opinion considers it sociopathic or not.

 

[Kimahri]

So continue your thought experiment. If that is the case, with the creator being a madman...that still assumes that a creator exists, and is the only higher power than man. Thus you owe your very existence to this being, whether your own mortal opinion considers it sociopathic or not.

So? I am supposed to be grateful for that just because? It also means this being is responsible for all kinds of horrific shit throughout history.

I could acknowledge such a being's existence provided someone brings me something that holds water long enough to convince me, doesn't mean I have to like this spiteful deity.

But I don't believe in any gods so it doesn't really matter.

 

[MHubert]

That could make sense if there was any clear sense in what makes you go to hell. But there are myriad interpretations on how to end up in hell, what evil is, not to mention what hell is.

But if we go with the classical hell being eternal damnation and torture or whatever, and I'm gonna still go with god being a sociopathic asshole, because people change, people learn from mistakes, and if you can go from good to bad and vice versa in the short time you're alive, it is aboslute madness and evil to condemn someone to an eternity of firey brimstone for something that happened in your tiny, tiny life.

Sure, but you still end up where you are going. If you truly think that god is a sociopathic asshole, then he loves you so much that he will let you go where he cannot bother you, and only you know where that is. It's not mysterious at all.

How can you pity the eternal destiny of that tiny, tiny life, if that destination is the true nature of what you desired all along?

 

[#Phonepunk#]

lol look at the atheist trolls thinking they are saying anything new in here. go read Ecclesiastes 1:9 you narccistist.

face it dude, you are just showing your own ignorance. every single thing you are saying has been said a thousand years ago by scholars, and with far more philosophy and wisdom, and without the edgelord snark. yes religious people have pondered the questions you are asking, but without the confrontational butthurt. maybe pick up a book and read, instead of getting your knowledge from Wikipedia.

yes, yes, Greek religion existed before Roman Christianity and influenced it. and this might blow your mind, but the Greeks were influenced by people before them! and Christianity was influenced by Judaism. it is almost like cultures influence one another.

amazing that you figured this out. how old are you? here is your cookie. you broke the code. the Pope now has to give you his hat. here is the key to the Vatican.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

im cackling at the idea that Greeks invented all religion too. are you for real? do some reading on world history, you ignorant fool.