• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Remedy thanks Epic Games for the support on developing Alan Wake

ScHlAuChi

Member
I'm not sure if you're being disingenuous, or if you're really this obtuse, though judging from your strangely aggressive stance, I certainly suspect the later.
Yep I´m the one being obtuse not understanding basic economics....
As for my aggressive stance, maybe it has to do with people like you not reading the thread or trying to understand what is being said and just repeating lies!
Maybe I´m just asking too much there!

When people talk about competition, they are referring to it from their perspective. From the consumer's perspective, this clearly limits their choice. Is it really that hard for you to comprehend?
The consumer isnt the only actor in a market - only seeing things from your own limited perspective is simply being ignorant!
But please, explain me, how does the distribution channel limit your choice?

Alan Wake II is a PC game for the PC platform! So you have the choice to buy it or not!
Does Epic prevent you from buying it on your platform? Nope, they dont -> not anti competitive!
That you dont like them as distribution method is completely irrelevant!
YOU choose not to get the game EVEN if its available on the platform you want it on!

It would be as if your favourite product would only be available at Walmart when you prefer to shop at Target. It has nothing to do with legal/illegal. Nobody is claiming what Epic is doing is illegal. It's just an anti-consumer move that makes people justifiably pissed off at them.
That is actually the case, Walmart and Target do have contracts for exclusive access to certain products!
But why do they do that? They do it to lure people to their own stores!
Thats what is called... competition!
 
Last edited:

Monserrat

Banned
You are proving my point. You think a monopoly can only exist under some heinous scheme. Try to see the bigger picture.

The bigger picture is that not all monopolies are illegal, you cannot tell apple, nvidia, pepsi, Sony, or Nintendo to stop selling too much because too much people prefer their product... you seem to wanna make an exception for Valve for some reason.
 

Goalus

Member
The bigger picture is that not all monopolies are illegal, you cannot tell apple, nvidia, pepsi, Sony, or Nintendo to stop selling too much because too much people prefer their product... you seem to wanna make an exception for Valve for some reason.
You absolutely can't, that's right.
But you also can't forbid a small underdog that happens to have a lot of money to use that money to attack these established companies.
 

Monserrat

Banned
You absolutely can't, that's right.
But you also can't forbid a small underdog that happens to have a lot of money to use that money to attack these established companies.

I'd rather have these rich underdogs to make a product I want, with good value, otherwise they are irrelevant.
 

Herr Edgy

Member
The bigger picture is that not all monopolies are illegal, you cannot tell apple, nvidia, pepsi, Sony, or Nintendo to stop selling too much because too much people prefer their product... you seem to wanna make an exception for Valve for some reason.
I'm not making an exception; that's not what we are talking about. People have issues with EGS for some valid, but mostly invalid reasons, and I'm pointing these invalid reasons out. That's all there is to it.

To spell it out for you in case the subtleties got lost: Valve owns the PC market, not through some nefarious means, but they do so regardless. Getting competition in there by natural stimulus is borderline impossible.
A little thought experiment: EGS is now on the same level as Steam feature wise. Maybe a bit different, but similar value.
Would EGS then become adopted by the mainstream in the PC market? It's not very likely, because people have invested into the platform that is called Steam. They have their friends there, own a ton of games and so on. They aren't likely to divest even if EGS could compete on a feature level.

Why is competition needed in the PC market in the first place? Because for most game devs, the 30% cut, the possible publisher's cut and taxes leave very little money to the developers of the game, leaving less capability to make interesting and profitable games.
What does Steam offer to devs? A lot of things; but most things aren't employed by or useful to most games. In reality, most games are on Steam because it is necessary and the 30% cut directly undermines the financial reality of many devs.
Developers do not go to Steam because they love the service so much. They do so because the market gets funneled through Steam. That's the singular reason.
And even then, most games are financial failures. I'm not blaming this on Valve, but it's a reality. You have to face reality in any business.

So since we have established that Valve's cut is too large for what it offers most devs and how competition would be a healthy and good thing for the industry (either by letting smaller and unknown games be more profitable, or by enforcing better services for developers), how do we establish competition?
I have already talked about the difficulty of breaking up this (emphasizing: not nefarious) monpoly even with a similar feature set.

What has to be done is to interrupt the status quo through any means necessary. If it means doing something you don't like because the only thing you can see is the "but mah Steam!" punchline, then I'm afraid to say you are the losing party in this field, because ultimately what's happening is a good thing.
Even if you get a little inconvenienced by having to use another launcher for 2 clicks if you want to play certain games.

Now, if this strategy pans out, I don't know. But I think it's the right direction for the industry either ways. I yearn for days where developing games becomes cheaper as that would enable tons more projects and a lot more creativity.
Tons of young game devs struggle to get their projects off the ground despite being talented due to lack of funding. Funding that could be smaller, if the cost was smaller.
We could be getting more success stories of new studios than we are getting now, studios that could become a new Blizzard or a new Epic Games for that matter, in 20 years.

This is all directly inhibited by the 30% cut in comparison to a smaller cut - and that is regardless of if you believe that Valve has a right to 30% or not.
 

HeWhoWalks

Gold Member
I'd rather have these rich underdogs to make a product I want, with good value, otherwise they are irrelevant.
Exactly right. Make a compelling product (store) and people will move to it. Steam isn't the go-to place just because it is "the only option" (which is obviously false and has been false for quite a while). Nothing has stopped other storefronts from improving theirs. Including Epic, who's store continues to trail Steam by quite a bit, and there is more than one reason they have failed to make a real dent in Steam's fanbase.
 
Last edited:

ScHlAuChi

Member
Exactly right. Make a compelling product (store) and people will move to it.
Hahahaha wow another economic genius - its so simple - just make a compelling product and people will move!
So everyone is still using Windows because its such a compelling product!

Steam isn't the go-to place just because it is "the only option" (which is obviously false and has been false for quite a while).
Steam owns over 70% of the PC market and is the go-to place for anyone releasing a game on that market.
So no matter how you look at it, they ARE the only option if you want your PC game to make money!
EGS, GOG, Humble, itchio are too small to matter!

Nothing has stopped other storefronts from improving theirs. Including Epic, who's store continues to trail Steam by quite a bit, and there is more than one reason they have failed to make a real dent in Steam's fanbase.
So Burger King revamping the look of its restaurants will certainly convince fans of Big Mac to switch to Burger King's Whopper, right?
According to your logic people care more about the looks of the restaurant then they care about the food!

Even if EGS had feature parity, not a single Steam fanboy would ever switch over - because their games library is on Steam.
 

HeWhoWalks

Gold Member
Hahahaha wow another economic genius - its so simple - just make a compelling product and people will move!
So everyone is still using Windows because its such a compelling product!


Steam owns over 70% of the PC market and is the go-to place for anyone releasing a game on that market.
So no matter how you look at it, they ARE the only option if you want your PC game to make money!
EGS, GOG, Humble, itchio are too small to matter!


So Burger King revamping the look of its restaurants will certainly convince fans of Big Mac to switch to Burger King's Whopper, right?
According to your logic people care more about the looks of the restaurant then they care about the food!

Even if EGS had feature parity, not a single Steam fanboy would ever switch over - because their games library is on Steam.
Hmmm... why the hostility?

You say... "Steam owns over 70% of the PC market and is the go-to place for anyone releasing a game on that market." - why is that?
You also say... "So no matter how you look at it, they ARE the only option if you want your PC game to make money" - again, why is that?

If the basis of your issue is "Even if EGS had feature parity, not a single Steam fanboy would ever switch over - because their games library is on Steam", what should competitors do?
 
Last edited:

elmos-acc

Member
And now Sam Lake himself is giving the finger to Microsoft praising Epic's support


As someone who bought Max Payne 1 and 2 on Steam and AW1 on Xbox360, this feels like a personal "fuck you" from Sam. How dare he thank the oppressor of my consumer rights!

/s

One thing is for sure, people here do not have the slightest idea what a publisher is and what is the difference between them and a developer. Honestly, if Epic starts to publish more AAA games from independent studios, that actually does add more competition to the industry. I don't know if you noticed, but a couple of pretty big third-party publishers have disappeared from the market recently.
 

Herr Edgy

Member
Hmmm... why the hostility?

You say... "Steam owns over 70% of the PC market and is the go-to place for anyone releasing a game on that market." - why is that?
You also say... "So no matter how you look at it, they ARE the only option if you want your PC game to make money" - again, why is that?

If the basis of your issue is "Even if EGS had feature parity, not a single Steam fanboy would ever switch over - because their games library is on Steam", what should competitors do?
Read my post above his. I'm pretty sure that answers your questions.

'What should competitors do'? Interrupt the market. That's what Epic has been doing. It's crass, people who think about these things in simple manners and think their game hobby is unrelated to how developers are doing will disagree, but ultimately, it's what it's necessary.

Imo Epic's strategy is what the industry as a whole should move towards. Reduce fees and cuts, liberate creative endeavors. Now of course EGS should also continuously improve, no question. The standard service should be good. But slight user inconvenience is not worth more than the people who create games. If that little inconvenience is what it takes, with the end goal being both a) a healthier industry and b) a good service, then that inconvenience is what I'm personally willing to accept.
 

ScHlAuChi

Member
Hmmm... why the hostility?
You say... "Steam owns over 70% of the PC market and is the go-to place for anyone releasing a game on that market." - why is that?
You also say... "So no matter how you look at it, they ARE the only option if you want your PC game to make money" - again, why is that?

If the basis of your issue is "Even if EGS had feature parity, not a single Steam fanboy would ever switch over - because their games library is on Steam", what should competitors do?
There isnt much they can do aside from getting exclusive products to their store that people want - like Fortnite, Rocket League or Alan Wake II etc.
Lowering fees or getting devs more return is good, but thats nothing the consumer cares about, and EGS´s market share is too low that such a move puts pressure on Valve.
 
Last edited:

HeWhoWalks

Gold Member
Read my post above his. I'm pretty sure that answers your questions.

'What should competitors do'? Interrupt the market. That's what Epic has been doing. It's crass, people who think about these things in simple manners and think their game hobby is unrelated to how developers are doing will disagree, but ultimately, it's what it's necessary.

Imo Epic's strategy is what the industry as a whole should move towards. Reduce fees and cuts, liberate creative endeavors. Now of course EGS should also continuously improve, no question. The standard service should be good. But slight user inconvenience is not worth more than the people who create games. If that little inconvenience is what it takes, with the end goal being both a) a healthier industry and b) a good service, then that inconvenience is what I'm personally willing to accept.
I'm with that you have to break the mold for real change to happen (this is also ScHlAuChi ScHlAuChi ). I guess my main issue with Epic is I'd just like to see a bit more effort mainly from the store, but I agree that a real attempt to compete with Steam is a welcomed one!
 
Last edited:

Herr Edgy

Member
I'm with that you have to break the mold for real change to happen (this is also ScHlAuChi ScHlAuChi ). I guess my main issue with Epic is I'd just like to see a bit more effort mainly from the store, but I agree that a real attempt to compete with Steam is a welcomed one!
Can't comment on stuff we got cooking. 😬
 

Kaleinc

Banned
Hahahaha wow another economic genius - its so simple - just make a compelling product and people will move!
So everyone is still using Windows because its such a compelling product!
Because you all aren't using linux as a home os, and you aren't using it because it's shit for home use. Same thing about egs, it's shit compared to competition.
If only competition loving hypocrites like you put money where mouth is.
And you want a paying customer to have worse experience cause it's better for you, that paying customer will show you and your asset flip a middle finger.
 

ScHlAuChi

Member
Because you all aren't using linux as a home os, and you aren't using it because it's shit for home use. Same thing about egs, it's shit compared to competition.
You completely missed the point!
The reason people use Windows is not becasue it´s the best OS, they use it because most software that people want is on there!
No matter if there is a better engineered OS´s out there - it wont matter if the software is on windows!
So the "better product" cannot succeed in such a market!

If only competition loving hypocrites like you put money where mouth is.
"Competiton loving hypocrites"....

Are you really that dumb that you dont even realize that you live in a capitalistic system that relies on competiton to work?

Why is Steam somehow special enough for you to ignore decades of economic knowledge?
You display the exact same level of irrationality as Brexit voters who hated the EU so much that they voted for their own doom!
Your hate for EGS and Tim Sweeny has made you blind to any facts.

As for calling me a hypocrite who doesnt put my money where my mouth is.
Unlike you, game devs dont have the luxury to be driven by some insane ideology - we cannot ignore economic reality, or we go bankrupt!

And you want a paying customer to have worse experience cause it's better for you, that paying customer will show you and your asset flip a middle finger.
See, this is the part you will never understand - it has nothing to do with what is better for devs - competiton is better for EVERYONE - including you, the consumer!

Your beloved Steam monopoly would simply not exist if the goverment hadnt broken up the AT&T monopoly!
Breaking up a monopoly is always better for everyone in the long run!
This is a proven fact!

But I know at the end of the day, it is completely pointless that a heretic like me tries to use facts to argue against the cult of Lord Gaben!
 
Last edited:

Kaleinc

Banned
You completely missed the point!
The reason people use Windows is not becasue it´s the best OS, they use it because most software that people want is on there!
No matter if there is a better engineered OS´s out there - it wont matter if the software is on windows!
So the "better product" cannot succeed in such a market!


"Competiton loving hypocrites"....

Are you really that dumb that you dont even realize that you live in a capitalistic system that relies on competiton to work?

Why is Steam somehow special enough for you to ignore decades of economic knowledge?
You display the exact same level of irrationality as Brexit voters who hated the EU so much that they voted for their own doom!
Your hate for EGS and Tim Sweeny has made you blind to any facts.

As for calling me a hypocrite who doesnt put my money where my mouth is.
Unlike you, game devs dont have the luxury to be driven by some insane ideology - we cannot ignore economic reality, or we go bankrupt!


See, this is the part you will never understand - it has nothing to do with what is better for devs - competiton is better for EVERYONE - including you, the consumer!

Your beloved Steam monopoly would simply not exist if the goverment hadnt broken up the AT&T monopoly!
Breaking up a monopoly is always better for everyone in the long run!
This is a proven fact!

But I know at the end of the day, it is completely pointless that a heretic like me tries to use facts to argue against the cult of Lord Gaben!
You competition loving hypocrites are trying to push users to use less competitive products and services which defies the concept of competition entirely.
It's obvious why. You receive epic money - that part was apparent from previous epic threads. This one - Herr Edgy turned out to be the same - literally epic shills that take money to sing songs about egs lmao. Big surprise
btw steam isn't my beloved monopoly as you try so hard to claim, they offer better service like competition implies.
A customer wants to purchase spider man game for example and decides where to buy it. Why should he buy it on egs?
(Sony published game btw)
You better have at least one good reason unless you want to be known as a dumb epic shill cunt
 

ScHlAuChi

Member
You competition loving hypocrites are trying to push users to use less competitive products and services which defies the concept of competition entirely.
...and once you again you demonstrate that you didnt even bother to read the provided links and even try to understand the content.

It's obvious why. You receive epic money - that part was apparent from previous epic threads. This one - Herr Edgy turned out to be the same - literally epic shills that take money to sing songs about egs lmao. Big surprise
Right, its completely impossible that one can form an independent opinion without being paid.....
Anyone being critical of your favorite platofrm must be a paid shill - its all so easy!

btw steam isn't my beloved monopoly as you try so hard to claim, they offer better service like competition implies.
Then where are all the bad ratings from devs and consumers (see links earlier in the thread) coming from?
All lies by paid shills from Epic right?

A customer wants to purchase spider man game for example and decides where to buy it. Why should he buy it on egs?
(Sony published game btw)
You better have at least one good reason unless you want to be known as a dumb epic shill cunt
If said game is sold for a lower price on EGS, then that is reason for alot of customers to buy it there.
So if Walmart offers Spider-Man for 20% less then Target, it is very likely that consumers will buy it at Walmart instead of Target!
But due to Valve using illegal price matching clauses it is not possible for EGS to sell a game cheaper!
There might be users who care about Steams´s "services" enough to pay more, but that is usually a minority.

I dont care if you call me "dumb epic shill cunt" if anything that only confirms you are very scared by anything challenging Steam.
 

Kaleinc

Banned
...and once you again you demonstrate that you didnt even bother to read the provided links and even try to understand the content.


Right, its completely impossible that one can form an independent opinion without being paid.....
Anyone being critical of your favorite platofrm must be a paid shill - its all so easy!


Then where are all the bad ratings from devs and consumers (see links earlier in the thread) coming from?
All lies by paid shills from Epic right?


If said game is sold for a lower price on EGS, then that is reason for alot of customers to buy it there.
So if Walmart offers Spider-Man for 20% less then Target, it is very likely that consumers will buy it at Walmart instead of Target!
But due to Valve using illegal price matching clauses it is not possible for EGS to sell a game cheaper!
There might be users who care about Steams´s "services" enough to pay more, but that is usually a minority.
All this drivel and not a single reason to buy on egs

I dont care if you call me "dumb epic shill cunt" if anything that only confirms you are very scared by anything challenging Steam.
You are scared cause if you and your comrade shills stop getting epic money you and your asset flips are fucked. I just use what is better and it's better by objective metrics.
Take that epic bribe money quietly, no need to make a fool of yourself
 
Last edited:

Ozriel

M$FT
Alan Wake 2 is a masterpiece, but no thanks to Epic's money. The PC exclusivity deal is an anticonsumer move. I'm not giving them money on PC untill the game available on any other store.

How the hell is it 'anti-consumer' when the game wouldn't exist without Epic? They're the publisher, they funded the development.
 

Jigsaah

Gold Member
I bought it on Epic, shit was 50 bucks. Did not expect that. There is history here as well. Control was originally exclusive on EGS too...and that's where I bought that too.

Not so much to support EGS...but I just like Remedy games and want them to keep making more. If I save $20 in the process...well...so be it.
 

ScHlAuChi

Member
All this drivel and not a single reason to buy on egs
There we have it - facts are drivel!
I dont care if you buy at EGS, Steam or GOG, I only made you try to understand what this is about - but alas, its hopeless.

You are scared cause if you and your comrade shills stop getting epic money you and your asset flips are fucked. I just use what is better and it's better by objective metrics.
Comrade shills - pretty funny - especially when Steam is the monopoly and wants to dictate devs what prices to set elsewhere. You know like they did in communism!
Weird, last time I checked, Steam was the plattform filled with asset flips and not EGS or GOG....

Take that epic bribe money quietly, no need to make a fool of yourself
It would be nice to get paid for all this!
Instead I´m wasting my time trying to get fanatics to understand simple facts and the perspective of devs!
At least I tried!
 

Monserrat

Banned
I'm not making an exception; that's not what we are talking about. People have issues with EGS for some valid, but mostly invalid reasons, and I'm pointing these invalid reasons out. That's all there is to it.

To spell it out for you in case the subtleties got lost: Valve owns the PC market, not through some nefarious means, but they do so regardless. Getting competition in there by natural stimulus is borderline impossible.
A little thought experiment: EGS is now on the same level as Steam feature wise. Maybe a bit different, but similar value.
Would EGS then become adopted by the mainstream in the PC market? It's not very likely, because people have invested into the platform that is called Steam. They have their friends there, own a ton of games and so on. They aren't likely to divest even if EGS could compete on a feature level.

Why is competition needed in the PC market in the first place? Because for most game devs, the 30% cut, the possible publisher's cut and taxes leave very little money to the developers of the game, leaving less capability to make interesting and profitable games.
What does Steam offer to devs? A lot of things; but most things aren't employed by or useful to most games. In reality, most games are on Steam because it is necessary and the 30% cut directly undermines the financial reality of many devs.
Developers do not go to Steam because they love the service so much. They do so because the market gets funneled through Steam. That's the singular reason.
And even then, most games are financial failures. I'm not blaming this on Valve, but it's a reality. You have to face reality in any business.

So since we have established that Valve's cut is too large for what it offers most devs and how competition would be a healthy and good thing for the industry (either by letting smaller and unknown games be more profitable, or by enforcing better services for developers), how do we establish competition?
I have already talked about the difficulty of breaking up this (emphasizing: not nefarious) monpoly even with a similar feature set.

What has to be done is to interrupt the status quo through any means necessary. If it means doing something you don't like because the only thing you can see is the "but mah Steam!" punchline, then I'm afraid to say you are the losing party in this field, because ultimately what's happening is a good thing.
Even if you get a little inconvenienced by having to use another launcher for 2 clicks if you want to play certain games.

Now, if this strategy pans out, I don't know. But I think it's the right direction for the industry either ways. I yearn for days where developing games becomes cheaper as that would enable tons more projects and a lot more creativity.
Tons of young game devs struggle to get their projects off the ground despite being talented due to lack of funding. Funding that could be smaller, if the cost was smaller.
We could be getting more success stories of new studios than we are getting now, studios that could become a new Blizzard or a new Epic Games for that matter, in 20 years.

This is all directly inhibited by the 30% cut in comparison to a smaller cut - and that is regardless of if you believe that Valve has a right to 30% or not.

You were talking about Steam being a monopoly that needs to be dealt with, for the sake of competence and the hypothetical consumer benefit in the long run... so unless you think that every other market dominant product or service provider needs to be dealt with for the same reason, you are making a special pleading. And I'm all about supporting competence, but supporting competitors with an inferior service, product, or value, is a waste of my money and I often regret it, but the moment they get their act together, I will be there with my money. When epic allows legit consumer reviews, I'll support them, meanhwhile they can kick rocks... I don't care about game devs and publishers that want a store with low cuts and no consumer reviews, that is not on my own interest.
 

Herr Edgy

Member
You were talking about Steam being a monopoly that needs to be dealt with, for the sake of competence and the hypothetical consumer benefit in the long run... so unless you think that every other market dominant product or service provider needs to be dealt with for the same reason, you are making a special pleading. And I'm all about supporting competence, but supporting competitors with an inferior service, product, or value, is a waste of my money and I often regret it, but the moment they get their act together, I will be there with my money. When epic allows legit consumer reviews, I'll support them, meanhwhile they can kick rocks... I don't care about game devs and publishers that want a store with low cuts and no consumer reviews, that is not on my own interest.
Then I have nothing to talk about with you.
 
Last edited:

Monserrat

Banned
Then I have nothing to talk about with you.

But if some dev or publisher push for a store with low cuts, but also with proper consumer reviews and discussions... I'll join the lobby. Epic is just not that store, they are kicking themselves out of the competence, don't try to blame it on Us.
 
Top Bottom