Support NeoGAF

[ImNotLikeThem]

that's nice and all, but PWRficient isn't making the chips for Rev, are they?

And isn't one of the big reasons (ok, the publicly stated reason) that Apple left IBM for Intel was because they wanted chips that consumed less power, something IBM couldn't provide?

While thats true, this is a press release from a new company based around technology licenced from IBM. They have developed at least a basic level processor that this company has further refined. I don't mean to imply this is Rev technology, but more to shut the naysayers up that the technology isn't feasible. This proves that it can be done, and at much lower power consumption than even people in this thread were thinking, and still be ready by this time next year. I'd have no reason to think that Nintendo and IBM, this exact thing being thier stated goal, could not reach a similar situation.

 

[Particle Physicist]

If it's a battle between magical elves/fairies, MS wins handsdown.

Kameo>>>>>>>>>>>>Tingle

you are severely underestimating tingle.

that boy is a maniac.

 

[John Harker]

Who'se PWRfficient anyway?

And hey, if they can do it, whose to say ibm can't do someting similiar for Nintendo?

 

[DrGAKMAN]

P.A. Semi Unveils Game-Changing Multicore Processor Family

Industry Veterans Launch New Company and PWRficientTM Processor Family; Announce Power ArchitectureTM License from IBM.

GCN runs under PowerPC as will most likely Revolution since it's BC with GCN & Nintendo announcing IBM's involvment with Broadway.

Fall Processor Forum – San Jose, Calif. – Oct. 24, 2005 – Emerging from more than two years of stealth development, P.A. Semi today unveiled the PWRficientTM processor family—a 64-bit multicore, scalable processor line based on the Power ArchitectureTM from IBM—that delivers high performance at very low power consumption, offering up to a tenfold advantage in performance per watt over the industry. P.A. Semi is headed by Dan Dobberpuhl, the acclaimed lead designer of the DEC Alpha series of microprocessors, the ultra-power-efficient StrongARM microprocessors, and the first commercial multicore processors including the SiByte 1250. The 150-strong processor, ASIC, software and systems engineering team also includes key designers of other defining processor architectures, such as Opteron, Itanium, and UltraSPARC.

Sounds Nintendo-ish. Some people thought it was a little odd that Nintendo touted things like "low power consumption" and the "wuiet" sound of the Revolution's design.

"The next wave of microprocessor innovation is contingent on solving the problem of dramatically increased power consumption," said cofounder, president, and CEO Dan Dobberpuhl. "We had to start from scratch, rethinking every step, to achieve our breakthrough performance-per-watt design. The result is a paradigm-shifting processor that has been enthusiastically received by our customers, who look forward to building a new breed of cool, efficient, yet high-performance, systems around the PWRficient processor."

Um...hello, "paradigm-shift" is something that stands out in this write-up.

PWRficient HIGH PERFORMANCE AT LOW POWER

The PWRficient processors address the multibillion-dollar high-performance embedded and computing markets to redefine power, cost, and throughput efficiency in high-performance processing. The unique system-on-chip architecture and design, underpinned by 50 patents filed and pending, delivers high performance (up to 2.5GHz per-core) at phenomenally low power consumption. In terms of performance per watt, the defining metric for all next- generation processors, PWRficient is up to 10 times superior to the competition. For example, the first PWRficient processor, a dual-core chip running at 2GHz, dissipates just 5-13 watts typical, depending upon the application.

I know they're just rumors, but more recent ones suggest just that. Most thought it was doubtful due to Revolution's size, cost and low-power requirements, but this write-up suggests the contrary.

Beyond performance per watt, the PWRficient processor delivers key breakthroughs in cost and throughput efficiency. PWRficient processors are the first processors in their class to integrate what is typically a three- to five-chip-set platform into a single chip, called a "platform processor." Not only does the integration of the cores, memory, south bridge, and high-speed I/O onto one chip dramatically reduce the cost of silicon and power consumption, but it also delivers high throughput at low latency.

A different rumor suggested Revolution would have several processors handling different tasks (GCN BC CPU that may double as a PPU in Revolution mode, seperateNES/SNES/N64 processor & dual-core Broadway). This sounded outrageous for various reasons, mainly being that it would be nonsence to put so many processors in such a small case. However, this PWRficient processor can be just that, possibly giving creedance to that past rumor, or at least part of it.

The other bolded quote could be important too since the Revolution's casing & mothrboard footprint is so small. For such a small box, the Revolution has alot of I/O as well as internal componants:
-Broadway CPU
-Hollywood GPU
-???MB System Memory
-SD Card Slot
-Built-In 128MB Flash Memory
-2 USB Ports
-Built-In WiFi
-Built-In BlueTooth
-Digital Output
-2 DigiCard Memory Card Slots
-4 GCN Controller Ports
-Slim Slot-Loading 12cm Drive
That's alot of components in such a small box...even without listing the power connection, cooling system, connection to the sensor bar and other unknown parts.

PWRficient SCALABILITY

Through its unique modular architecture, which allows the number of cores, memory controllers, cache, serdes lanes, and protocols to easily scale, P.A. Semi will deliver a family of PWRficient processors targeting a variety of applications, including high-performance computing, embedded datacom and telecom, storage, and other embedded consumer applications. Additionally, this modularity advantage enables P.A. Semi to tape out new PWRficient processors in one quarter, versus the years common in the industry

So many of these write-ups usually list gaming-systems as a bullet-point for what their product can be used for/with, but this just says "other"...hmmm...

"P.A. Semi's PWRficient processor addresses the fundamental challenge facing all next-generation processors by delivering higher performance and reduced power," says In-Stat analyst and Microprocessor Report editor in chief Kevin Krewell. "In being phenomenally low-power while still being able to run at high clock speeds, the PWRficient processor is ahead of today's processors and will be a significant challenger to the much vaunted devices on its competitors' roadmaps."

THE PWRficient PROCESSOR ROLLOUT

The first PWRficient chip, the PA6T-1682M, which dissipates between just 5-13 watts, depending upon the application, is a dual-core implementation running at 2GHz with two DDR2 memory controllers, 2MB of L2 cache, and a flexible I/O subsystem that supports eight PCI Express controllers, two 10 Gigabit Ethernet XAUI controllers, and four Gigabit Ethernet SGMII controllers sharing 24 serdes lanes. It will sample in the third calendar quarter of 2006, with single-core and quad-core versions due in early and late 2007, respectively, and an eight-core version planned for 2008.

Ahem.

PWRficient ARCHITECTURAL ELEMENTS

The PWRficient family of platform processors is derived from a common set of fundamental architectural elements. A coherent, ordered crossbar called CONEXIUMTM interconnects multiple Power cores, L2 caches, memory controllers, and the ENVOITM I/O subsystem. ENVOI combines a set of configurable serdes lanes with a set of protocol controllers for such I/O standards as PCI Express, Gigabit Ethernet, and 10 Gigabit Ethernet.

These controllers share a bridge to CONEXIUM, as well as a set of centralized DMA channels, offload engines, and a coherent I/O cache. The architecture supports a variety of offload engines, including support for TCP/IP, iSCSI, cryptography (IPSec and SSL), and RAID. This layered, scalable architecture results in versatile single-chip solutions that can be quickly developed by combining the appropriate number of Power cores, memory controllers, and L2 caches with a suitable number of serdes lanes and protocol controllers.

P.A. Semi also employs a unique scalable-socket plan, which provides several options for performance upgrades or cost reductions with little or no design effort. P. A. Semi defines a "socket" (package, pinout, and power envelope) by the number of memory controllers (up to four), the number of serdes I/O lanes (up to 32), and the supported system peripherals. Each socket supports several performance levels by varying the number of cores (up to eight on a chip) and the size of the L2 cache (up to 8MB). Within a socket definition, processors are tailored to different applications by adjusting the number and type of the high-speed I/O protocols (for example PCI Express, 10 Gigabit Ethernet, 1 Gigabit Ethernet, SATA/SAS, RapidIO, and Fibre Channel). Initial socket definitions include the "E" socket (entry), "M" socket (midrange), and "P" socket (performance). Customers can design to a specific socket, instead of a specific processor, to enable easy migration to compatible processors.

Nintendo wouldn't need alot of stuff this all-in-one solution can have, so the cost reduction quote sounds Nintendo-ish as well. The 8MB of L2 cache was mentioned in a recent rumor as well.

P.A. SEMI STRATEGIC PARTNERS AND ECOSYSTEM

P.A. Semi is partnered with some of the most notable names in technology, having licensed the Power Architecture from IBM [see other news release, P.A. Semi Signs Power Architecture License], and is supported by an ecosystem of partners, including Macraigor Systems, Micron, MontaVista Software, QNX Software Systems, SMART Modular Technologies, Inc., Terra Soft Solutions, and Wind River.

P.A. Semi is backed by two of the most respected venture-capital firms, Bessemer Venture Partners and Venrock Associates.

FALL PROCESSOR FORUM PRESENTATION

Jim Keller, vice president of engineering, Architecture Group, P.A. Semi, will present the PWRficient processor architecture at Fall Processor Forum in San Jose, California, on Tuesday, October 25 at 9:50 a.m. in a session titled "A Power-Efficient, Scalable Processor Family." The new PWRficient processor will also be demonstrated at the show on an EVE (Emulation and Verification Engineering) ZeBu-XL emulation platform.

More information on P.A. Semi, its founders, the PWRficient processor family, and its partners appears on the new P.A. Semi web site, also launched today, at www.pasemi.com.

Back to the other rumor that suggested multiple processors emulating past systems, bla bla bla, yadda yadda yadda...but it does sound like this PowerPC-based solution could very well be doable for Nintendo Revolution's Broadway CPU. The only real questionable thing is that this write-up doesn't say much about graphics integration or architecture that included a GPU...something Revolution will have. PC's usually have GPU's on PCI cards though, which this architecture does support.

 

[elostyle]

2 core, 2gig, alright then that would be nice. Thanks for putting that post together.

Unless they somehow do it through IBM, I don't see nintendo banking their future on a venture capital funded startup, however.

The timing between broasway being finished and this announcement makes me curious.

 

[koam]

2 core, 2gig, alright then that would be nice. Thanks for putting that post together.

Unless they somehow do it through IBM, I don't see nintendo banking their future on a venture capital funded startup, however.

The timing between broasway being finished and this announcement makes me curious.

This fits Nintendo's needs perfectly. I also know that IBM has been outsourcing a lot lately due to cuts, it would not surprise me one bit if they're licensing their tech to other companies.

http://www.redherring.com/Article.a...Its+Debut++&sector=Regions&subsector=Americas

The company is also eyeing the gaming console market. That will pit P.A. Semi against IBM, which supplies processors to the top three console makers, Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo.

 

[OG_Original Gamer]

It doesn't seem as if this is a IBM license. It say's its based on the PowerPC architecture, but its by PA Semi. Maybe I'm reading incorrectly. I hope so.

 

[AndoCalrissian]

2 core, 2gig, alright then that would be nice. Thanks for putting that post together.

Unless they somehow do it through IBM, I don't see nintendo banking their future on a venture capital funded startup, however.

The timing between broasway being finished and this announcement makes me curious.

Pretty sure ArtX was a new company formed by people from SGI when Nintendo contracted them for Flipper.

 

[DrGAKMAN]

The company has lined up a United States-based contract chip maker to produce its processors, but Mr. Dobberpuhl declined to name the chip maker. P.A. Semi plans to start producing its first processor, a dual-core version, in small quantities in the third quarter of 2006.

Probably not Broadway then. Still good to know that good power could be done small/cheap/low power consuming enough in time for Revolution though.

OG...
The Red Herring article makes it out to be that P.A. Semi might be trying to "wrestle" with bigger chip makers (like IBM), but guess who's supplying the PowerPC-based chips to P.A. Semi...yeah, IBM. Either way (whether this startup company is involved with Revolution or not), IBM is basically making Broadway.

Maybe Red Herring is interpreting this whole situation all wrong...too me, from the P.A. Semi write-up on their site, it makes it seem like the company is creating a low-power effeciency architecture for their customers, but that they're using IBM's PowerPC technology as it's center. Sounds more like P.A. Semi is in the motherboard/system architecture business rather than the CPU making business. Overall, they're doing new things, but they're doing them with existing chips from IBM. Think about it, they're *only* seeking $100M in investments to get started.

 

[John Harker]

Waiting for Shog, for some reason

 

[Gahiggidy]

I predict tri-core 6 ghz processors. The name is Broadway and Nintendo spent money on it so clearly it's that. Plus, with the magic elves Nintendo ships in every case, it's entirely plausible. Once again, I point to Nintendo spending lots of money. Clearly, money and elves is a convincing argument that cannot be refuted.

Oh, if only Microsoft had some of those elves. We all know they don't have that money.

QFT.

 

[xexex]

Pretty sure ArtX was a new company formed by people from SGI when Nintendo contracted them for Flipper.

yep, back in 1997-1998. fully announced in 1999 at E3.

 

[Sho Nuff]

There's only one processor name that's gayer than Broadway.

 

[Ford Prefect]

There's only one processor name that's gayer than Broadway.

Now that I think about it, Revolution is going to kick ass.

 

[WindyMan]

Reading through this thread made be realize how horridly inefficient the PS3 is going to be. Sony is promising to wipe the floor with the 360, and the 360 requires a shitload of power to operate. I don't think I'm going to want to plug anything else into the outlet the PS3 is inserted into.

Good sluething by everyone. It just goes to show you that Nintendo is really the only hardware manufacturer that truly can make a beautiful and efficient piece of hardware that gives the most bang for the buck.

 

[John Harker]

Hey, after looking at this mac mini sitting next to me, Nintendo can pull off anything they say they can.

And speaking of how people say Nintendo is imitating Apple with their new designs, well - Apple did it back to Nintendo!

GameCube=

Mac Mini Box=

Seems lke they are even to me!

 

[Juice]

O RLY???

I remember hearing a rumor that the system looked like the G4 Cube about a week before the unveiling (when we were still calling it StarCube)--I threw up a mockup based on the G4 Cube on Tendoproject/SWL.

Sorry man, Nintendo is still teh copy.

 

[John Harker]

I was just making a joke anyway.

Every company in the world does this.

An original idea or desgin is only original.... once.

 

[capslock]

Reading through this thread made be realize how horridly inefficient the PS3 is going to be. Sony is promising to wipe the floor with the 360, and the 360 requires a shitload of power to operate. I don't think I'm going to want to plug anything else into the outlet the PS3 is inserted into.

Good sluething by everyone. It just goes to show you that Nintendo is really the only hardware manufacturer that truly can make a beautiful and efficient piece of hardware that gives the most bang for the buck.

Amazing conclusion given the fact that we know next to nothing about Broadway, and the power consumption of the PS3.

 

[Particle Physicist]

GCN runs under PowerPC as will most likely Revolution since it's BC with GCN & Nintendo announcing IBM's involvment with Broadway.



Sounds Nintendo-ish. Some people thought it was a little odd that Nintendo touted things like "low power consumption" and the "wuiet" sound of the Revolution's design.



Um...hello, "paradigm-shift" is something that stands out in this write-up.



I know they're just rumors, but more recent ones suggest just that. Most thought it was doubtful due to Revolution's size, cost and low-power requirements, but this write-up suggests the contrary.



A different rumor suggested Revolution would have several processors handling different tasks (GCN BC CPU that may double as a PPU in Revolution mode, seperateNES/SNES/N64 processor & dual-core Broadway). This sounded outrageous for various reasons, mainly being that it would be nonsence to put so many processors in such a small case. However, this PWRficient processor can be just that, possibly giving creedance to that past rumor, or at least part of it.

The other bolded quote could be important too since the Revolution's casing & mothrboard footprint is so small. For such a small box, the Revolution has alot of I/O as well as internal componants:
-Broadway CPU
-Hollywood GPU
-???MB System Memory
-SD Card Slot
-Built-In 128MB Flash Memory
-2 USB Ports
-Built-In WiFi
-Built-In BlueTooth
-Digital Output
-2 DigiCard Memory Card Slots
-4 GCN Controller Ports
-Slim Slot-Loading 12cm Drive
That's alot of components in such a small box...even without listing the power connection, cooling system, connection to the sensor bar and other unknown parts.



So many of these write-ups usually list gaming-systems as a bullet-point for what their product can be used for/with, but this just says "other"...hmmm...



Ahem.



Nintendo wouldn't need alot of stuff this all-in-one solution can have, so the cost reduction quote sounds Nintendo-ish as well. The 8MB of L2 cache was mentioned in a recent rumor as well.



Back to the other rumor that suggested multiple processors emulating past systems, bla bla bla, yadda yadda yadda...but it does sound like this PowerPC-based solution could very well be doable for Nintendo Revolution's Broadway CPU. The only real questionable thing is that this write-up doesn't say much about graphics integration or architecture that included a GPU...something Revolution will have. PC's usually have GPU's on PCI cards though, which this architecture does support.

i dont think PWRficientTM's chip will be revolution's.. but considering that they are using IBM tech to accomplish all this, it completely shits on all those people who said it was impossible.

 

[John Harker]

Is anyone doubting this information, or saying it can't be possible this chip or one similiar can run inside the tiny Rev case?

There used to be threads up the ass abouit what could be in this box. Someone posts something possible, and the thread is still at 2 pages??

Where is the war guys. Seriously.

 

[Nightbringer]

Motherboard of the PowerMac G4 Cube:

I can assure that it has the same size of Gamecube motherboard.

 

[DrGAKMAN]

i dont think PWRficientTM's chip will be revolution's.. but considering that they are using IBM tech to accomplish all this, it completely shits on all those people who said it was impossible.

Which is something in itself.

I'm drawing up what I think the motherboard layout for the Revolution will look like, and I'll post it here, maybe tomorrow night. Basically the Revolution is about 1/4TH the height of GCN but doesn't include a large top-loading drive drive nor a bunch of over-sized add-on ports on the bottom of it like the GCN did. Also a factor is that the Revolution's overall depth is more than the GCN giving it a bigger footprint and thus more motherboard space.

 

[John Harker]

Which is something in itself.

I'm drawing up what I think the motherboard layout for the Revolution will look like, and I'll post it here, maybe tomorrow night. Basically the Revolution is about 1/4TH the height of GCN but doesn't include a large top-loading drive drive nor a bunch of over-sized add-on ports on the bottom of it like the GCN did. Also a factor is that the Revolution's overall depth is more than the GCN giving it a bigger footprint and thus more motherboard space.

Don't forget to factor in no air vents

 

[Gee]

If it's a battle between magical elves/fairies, MS wins handsdown.

Kameo>>>>>>>>>>>>Tingle

Fuck Tingle... Navi >> All

 

[Polari]

Don't forget to factor in no air vents

I wouldn't count on that. IIRC, early GC prototypes didn't include ventilation, and look what happened there.

 

[Particle Physicist]

I wouldn't count on that. IIRC, early GC prototypes didn't include ventilation, and look what happened there.

purple console?

 

[P90]

Fuck Tingle... Navi >> All

I agree with that.

 

[Y2Kev]

Reading through this thread made be realize how horridly inefficient the PS3 is going to be. Sony is promising to wipe the floor with the 360, and the 360 requires a shitload of power to operate. I don't think I'm going to want to plug anything else into the outlet the PS3 is inserted into.

Good sluething by everyone. It just goes to show you that Nintendo is really the only hardware manufacturer that truly can make a beautiful and efficient piece of hardware that gives the most bang for the buck.

Uh? What do you want Sony to do? Not power its console? I don't see how you can whine about the power consumption for the PS3 as the thing is seeming to be an absolute beast. It's going to be powering hardware of which we haven't seen the likes of yet and then it's got a Blu-Ray drive. All for 300-400 dollars (as per Stringer). How is that NOT freaking amazing bang for your buck?

 

[stone128]

purple console?

lol

 

[Panajev2001a]

PowerPC 970MP derived CPU... that is my bet .

 

[PhoenixDark]

Fuck Tingle... Navi >> All

QFT, which makes my original statement false. :lol

 

[emerge]

PowerPC 970MP derived CPU... that is my bet .

My money is on a PPC440 derivative.

 

[Scrow]

PowerPC 970MP derived CPU... that is my bet .

is that... good? As in, would that be considered next-gen grade?

 

[Eric_S]

It's not going to be a PA semi chip if Ars is right, unfortunately.

What PA Semi did was that they bought the rights to use the PPC ISA from IBM, and from there built a CPU, all the way from the ground up.

The CPU choices that remain, as I see them through my lay man eyes, are :

1) a 440 based chip. (Unlikely, since it doesn't scale to the frequencies that I'm expecting it to have, plus I'm unshure on what the licence deal with AMCC looks like)

2) A 970 based chip. (Could be, but they'd need to do something about that god awful frontside bus, and the power dissapation, and preferably the sucky cache latencies and horrible integer preformance too. [edit]Oh, and the initialisation process needs to go to, having a CPU dedicated to just bringing the 970 up and talking to the northbridge won't do at all in a console.[/edit] )

3) A PPE based chip. (Could very well be, boost the L1 cache, add some beefier branch prediction and cut the pipelines where apropriate and it would be a decent enough chip for the job.)

4) A chip built from the ground up customly for Nintendo. (I doubt it very much that they (Nintendo) could afford something like that.)

 

[Nightbringer]

PowerPC Gekko+VMX running at 2Ghz and with 10W of power consumption only with an ATI X1600 running at 500Mhz (25W) and using the same memory configuration of Gamecube but changing the SDRAM memory for the 512MB Flash RAM.

Main memory 512MB Mosys 1T-SRAM-Q. 128 bits, 500Mhz, DDR, 128 bits.

 

[Panajev2001a]

is that... good? As in, would that be considered next-gen grade?

Nintendo wants a CPU that is:

1.) Easy to program for.

2.) Cheap.

3.) Low-power.

4.) Fast and efficient.


If you factor all for of them together with special attention to the first three elements (not that it would be uber slow either ) this CPU matches what they would want pretty well IMHO.

While we do have two cores (we do need some performance and two cores, two VMX units do give us a non-trivial amount of processing power: 2 GHz * 8 fp ops/cycle * 2 = 32 GFLOPS which is far from the 1.9 GFLOPS of Gekko ) and that means you have to manage to run more than a thread at a time (although one thread could be an OS/graphics API thread abstracting the hardware from you, etc...), but you would have a much easier transition from GCN to Revolution.

Both are OOOe cores (with the Dynamic Scheduler in the PowerPC 970 core being MUCH more capable than Gekko's one), both pack a rather large amount of cache for their time, both would end up relying on a low latency main memory sub-system.

The PowerPC 970 is still in the generation of processor thought for the PC world: big and powerful branch predictors, rather short pipeline (especially compared to Pentium IV or PPE/PPX), big and powerful OOOe engine (which helps you hide L1 cache misses and data dependencies between instructions) and we should not count off the fact that compilers for the PowerPC 970 should be pretty mature by now as the processor has been out for a long while and has been extensively used (example: Apple's products)... to make a story short it is a kind of CPU where they have spent quit e abit of hardware trying to hide complexity away from developers doing stuff for them in hardware rather than making them micro-manage it.

General-purpose/Game Logic code should definately run fastest on such a processor than PPX or PPE, see the big problems Xbox 360 developers faced when moving from Alpha to Beta kits regarding CPU performance variations.

Managing 3 cores with 2 HW threads each, static instruction scheduling (no OOOe) and enormous main RAM latencies to hide (CELL is not a piece of cake to code for either ) seems to me far harder than managing two threads for fairly standard yet quite powerful processors (although with far less peak performance than either PPX or CELL, but still much faster than GCN's Gekko).

 

[Panajev2001a]

2) A 970 based chip. (Could be, but they'd need to do something about that god awful frontside bus, and the power dissapation, and preferably the sucky cache latencies and horrible integer preformance too. [edit]Oh, and the initialisation process needs to go to, having a CPU dedicated to just bringing the 970 up and talking to the northbridge won't do at all in a console.[/edit] )

3) A PPE based chip. (Could very well be, boost the L1 cache, add some beefier branch prediction and cut the pipelines where apropriate and it would be a decent enough chip for the job.)

About the initialization process needing a separate CPU (still, you will find that adding an ARM7 to a board or even an ARM9 just to do such a small task is something that is becoming VERY common, see PSP WiFi chipset that uses a ARM9+ARM7 solution )... from what I have read is not something any application programmer ever has to worry about: there will be an OS and libraries that do all the boot-up process for you, that I have NO doubt about.

Boosting the L1, changing the branch predictor and especially shortening the processor pipeline depth are very heavvy cheanges that sound to me like more expensive changes than using a dual-core PowerPC 970MP (even if you added some more L2 cache than the one that the default configuration uses... if you really decide to do it, which IMHO would not be necessary in Nintendo's case).

Before you criticize PowerPC 970's integer performance or the ease of extracting good performance from an application programmer's stand-point... look over the shoulders of the guys swetting blood optimizing for the PPE/PPX .

 

[RonaldoSan]

Panajev do you expect the system to be capable of producing visuals in the range of the Lindberg arcade platform?

 

[Nightbringer]

About the initialization process needing a separate CPU (still, you will find that adding an ARM7 to a board or even an ARM9 just to do such a small task is something that is becoming VERY common, see PSP WiFi chipset that uses a ARM9+ARM7 solution )... from what I have read is not something any application programmer ever has to worry about: there will be an OS and libraries that do all the boot-up process for you, that I have NO doubt about.

Boosting the L1, changing the branch predictor and especially shortening the processor pipeline depth are very heavvy cheanges that sound to me like more expensive changes than using a dual-core PowerPC 970MP (even if you added some more L2 cache than the one that the default configuration uses... if you really decide to do it, which IMHO would not be necessary in Nintendo's case).

Before you criticize PowerPC 970's integer performance or the ease of extracting good performance from an application programmer's stand-point... look over the shoulders of the guys swetting blood optimizing for the PPE/PPX .

I only see a problem with all this that is the power consumption. Gamecube and MacMini has similar boxes and a total power consumption of only 40W with a PSU of 80-85W.

Perhaps I am wrong and I must to see more to a Lapton power consumption before the MacMini and Gamecube consumption. But is something that worries me and a lot of people.

 

[Eric_S]

About the initialization process needing a separate CPU (still, you will find that adding an ARM7 to a board or even an ARM9 just to do such a small task is something that is becoming VERY common, see PSP WiFi chipset that uses a ARM9+ARM7 solution )... from what I have read is not something any application programmer ever has to worry about: there will be an OS and libraries that do all the boot-up process for you, that I have NO doubt about.

It brings in an extra unneccesary cost in both silicon and complexety, plus it's really unneccesary in a set design such as a console when you're bound to have a more or less custom CPU or custom tweaked CPU, IMO.

Boosting the L1, changing the branch predictor and especially shortening the processor pipeline depth are very heavvy cheanges that sound to me like more expensive changes than using a dual-core PowerPC 970MP (even if you added some more L2 cache than the one that the default configuration uses... if you really decide to do it, which IMHO would not be necessary in Nintendo's case).

Depends when in the devcycle they agreed on what the CPU would be/look like. And I doubt that the 970 will go into the Rev unchanged, it's really not suited for the type of embedded design that the Rev represents. The current fsb produces too much heat and gives poor memory preformance (low latency and suprisingly low mem throughput), the clockgating etc would need looking over to lower powerconsumption and I wouldn't be suprised if some extra registers would be added for backwards compatabillity or some nice 3D trickery. The latter (registers) would, if they choose to do so, would have to be done any chip chosen for the job, though.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I only see a problem with all this that is the power consumption. Gamecube and MacMini has similar boxes and a total power consumption of only 40W with a PSU of 80-85W.

Perhaps I am wrong and I must to see more to a Lapton power consumption before the MacMini and Gamecube consumption. But is something that worries me and a lot of people.

The PowerPC 970MP is not the FX or the original 970 either .

 

[KINGMOKU]

It's not going to be a PA semi chip if Ars is right, unfortunately.

What PA Semi did was that they bought the rights to use the PPC ISA from IBM, and from there built a CPU, all the way from the ground up.

The CPU choices that remain, as I see them through my lay man eyes, are :

1) a 440 based chip. (Unlikely, since it doesn't scale to the frequencies that I'm expecting it to have, plus I'm unshure on what the licence deal with AMCC looks like)

2) A 970 based chip. (Could be, but they'd need to do something about that god awful frontside bus, and the power dissapation, and preferably the sucky cache latencies and horrible integer preformance too. [edit]Oh, and the initialisation process needs to go to, having a CPU dedicated to just bringing the 970 up and talking to the northbridge won't do at all in a console.[/edit] )

3) A PPE based chip. (Could very well be, boost the L1 cache, add some beefier branch prediction and cut the pipelines where apropriate and it would be a decent enough chip for the job.)

4) A chip built from the ground up customly for Nintendo. (I doubt it very much that they (Nintendo) could afford something like that.)

WTF? It is bieng built custom.

Not afford it? What planet do you live on?

 

[Gahiggidy]

We could always email them and ask?

 

[Eric_S]

WTF? It is bieng built custom.

Not afford it? What planet do you live on?

Because not Sony, noor Microsoft thought it to be economically feasable, so they choose to let IBM piggyback on the two designs when IBM designed the PPE/PPX parts? Sony aspecially (Toshiba's a part of the STI alliance too, remember).

Developing CPUs, from the ground up, costs ass tons of money and/or requires a lot of very, very skilled engineers and a lot of time. Heavely altering existing designs or teaming up with others to build a new one are usually the only economically feasible routes, wich is why I think they've gone that route.

 

[effzee]

http://www.revogaming.net/html/modules/news/article.php?storyid=145



don't remember the rumor of it being dual-core, not counting the very old rumored specs where one set had 2 CPUs.

if anything, use this thread as a spring-board to continue the capabilities rumored by EGM discussion since the thread on that subject was closed.

which egm rumor and thread are u referring to?

 

[John Harker]

Now the thread is getting interested!

Don't stop guys. Fight.

 

[[Nintex]]

Nintendo did report milions perhaps even billions of R&D costs. The reason there profit went down. That sure isn't the Revmote alone.

 

[Gahiggidy]

Nintendo could release a smidgen of info on the hardware each week up unitll may and we'd all go gaga over it, yet Nintendo could still keep the majority of the details under wraps.

 

[DrGAKMAN]

Don't forget to factor in no air vents

Prototype casing. Plus we never saw the back end of the Revolution where I suspect the processors will be plenty ventilated behind & away from the disc drive. Remember, the system is deeper than the GCN, giving it a larger footprint.

Revolution Side View:
DDDDDDDDDDDDDCCCCCCC
DDDDDDDDDDMMMMMPPPPPPP---> Output
FFFSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

Key:
D = slim disc drive
F = front end (SD, USB, LED's)
S = silicon motherboard
M = system memory
P = processors
C = slim cooling system