Vincent Alexander
Member
If you could define "controversial" for me, that'd be dynamite. It'll have to be black-and-white enough to apply to all scenarios. And truly...that ain't happening.
Richard Dawkins tells students upset by Germaine Greer to go home and hug a teddy
- Thread starter Erin S Kittens
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IdreamofHIME
Member
He's right. Censoring is wrong, let her open her piehole and reveal the idiocy.
Greer can say whatever she wants. The students just don't want her to say it under their roof.
LUFTRAUSER
Banned
Intersectionality, isn't it fun? But yeah I think a university setting is one where you'd expect to have your ideas challenged. I'm not sure why they'd cancel.
BossDarkseid
Member
I can understand that point but...in a dream scenario, i guess, wouldn't it be better for someone to have debated/argued them down etc? I can understand Dawkins and agree with him on principle but Greer does sound...a little much. It's not so much someone not agreeing with a POV but it's not like society has a spotless record on trans issues etc so they might not have a solid/safe home etc (broadly speaking)....
JesseEwiak
Member
Don't pay anybody whose opinion is against those of marginalized people from the same bucket of funds that those marginalized people are paying into. If the local conservative club or some random other group of idiots that doesn't get funding from the college wants to pay somebody, so be it.
JesseEwiak
Member
She can come on campus to speak/debate all she wants, she just won't get a check that's partly drawn from the tuition of trans students.
You have a right to free speech - you just don't have a right to get paid well for that speech.
voodoopanda
Member
I don't think I agree with censoring student's ability to protest against things they disagree with. Students should be able to freely speak their mind about how they feel their school should act, and not shamed & faced with censorship because of it.
Honestly, there's not much more I would appreciate watching than having a voraciously racist person have an academic debate with a black person about the 'humanness' of black people. I imagine it wouldn't be for everyone, but I would -love- it.
This can get a little bit cyclical - but I don't know if anyone is censoring a students ability to protest - if that's what is happening, than I agree that -shouldn't- happen. But protesters are open to criticism. If protesters were protesting... I don't know, mixed gender classes, I would tell them that what they stood for was dumb and their protest was dumb. They could still protest though.
metalslimer
Member
Right historically would we be so upset at African Americans protesting a klansmen coming to talk on how the negroes are bad. like I said the university should get whoever they want but I don't think complaining about students protesting does any good.
TheKaeptain
Banned
In my own experience this isn't true.
I agree with these folks.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Trans people aren't going to learn anytbing from her or have any kind of argument they haven't had dozens of times in their own lives. All they get is reaffirmation that people in power think their humanity is "up for good hearty debate" at best and hate them at worst
Exactly.
Learning how to win a debate over hate is VERY important for the real world.
Buddha Beam
Banned
1. It's not their roof. They're paying for the privilege to be there.
2. The whole purpose of being under that roof is to be challenged in your point of view. That's how you learn if it actually holds any water. Having a bunch of people who think like you say it's true doesn't necessarily make it so.
Vincent Alexander
Member
I really don't mean to be a devil's advocate, but I'd find it fascinating to listen to a KKK member talk.
I can agree with people on the money side of things. However, I worked for my university for a while and these kind of speakers were voted on by the Undergrad Student Government and Residence Hall Association. Potentially, this speaker could've been approved by students themselves. But ya know...not all places run exactly the same. Just throwing it out there.
M0nochromatic
Member
Is speaking at a College a voluntary thing? If it's just a person walking around being an ass that's one thing, but if they're being paid for it then the students are right. Get a speaker who has something of value to say if funds are being alloted.
She is vile and he is right.
LOL at the OP trying to frame him as a bad guy or something.
Sometimes the perspective about things can change dramatically when confronted with such different opinions and would led to less people saying "I didn't know people like them exists in this day and age" and instead will led them to ask themselves how they feel about those things and how people could think those things.
LOL at the OP trying to frame him as a bad guy or something.
It's their choice tho, if they want to go and laugh at ha let them be, don't avoid topics, opinions or themes just because 'His opinion is worthless" or some other nonsense.
Sometimes the perspective about things can change dramatically when confronted with such different opinions and would led to less people saying "I didn't know people like them exists in this day and age" and instead will led them to ask themselves how they feel about those things and how people could think those things.
ClosingADoor
Member
Was the talk supposed to be about her transgender views or something different? She can be a terrible person, but she is still allowed to speak. And the students are free to debate it and even protest if they want.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Nothing she is saying is a novel challenge to any of the people its relevant to. No one is going to have their eyes opened to "oh wow I guess some people don't like trans folks"
If you're trans you've been challenged every day since it was public in any way
metalslimer
Member
I also have to say is there really going to be any kind of intellectual debate going on. It would be one thing to have speakers on both sides of the issue debating but from my experience it would just be her rambling on stage while people applauded/booed her
PJV3
Member
No its about women and power I think.
Which opinions shouldn't be heard?
Is that for you/anyone to decide, and is that the criteria? What if you're not trans and you have not great ideas about trans people, but are still amendable? I think it's more valuable to have an easy opportunity for people to actually have these discussions out and the open and properly challenge them - rather than perpetuate the notion that bad ideas should be kept secret and shared only with like minded people. That's now how you squash them.
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
Obama said pretty much the same thing.
Dawkins is an asshole, but he's not wrong. If you don't like it, just don't go or go and argue your position. I don't understand how reasonable people could be opposed to this.
Dawkins is an asshole, but he's not wrong. If you don't like it, just don't go or go and argue your position. I don't understand how reasonable people could be opposed to this.
Buddha Beam
Banned
In the BBC interview she did she said her talk had nothing to do with trans people. This is literally "you hold a view I don't like, therefore you are a pariah"
LUFTRAUSER
Banned
Maybe, but it is a pretty important paradigm in contemporary society.
Man it would be so nice to live in a world were I only heard opinions that I agree with, instead I have to have my ears punished by words that hurt marginalized groups. I really hate it when nasty people say nasty things, god damn it. Where's my teddy bear? I need to hold something.
The world is full of ignorant bigots. I want to hear what they have to say and I want them to be publicly mocked for it as well.
The world is full of ignorant bigots. I want to hear what they have to say and I want them to be publicly mocked for it as well.
ClosingADoor
Member
Then she should have been allowed to speak and the students should have held a protest outside showing their disagreements with her views about this other issue.
But since she cancelled the talk herself, it also isn't really censorship or whatever. She wasn't actually stopped from coming.
s_mirage
Member
The title of the talk was Women & Power: The Lessons of the 20th Century. AFAIK, the students want her banned for her stated views, not the topic of the talk.
Yes, I would. I can't hate everything he stands for but these people do exist. Censoring does nothing. Greer is a dick but that doesn't mean Dawkins is wrong.
theepicoftyler
Member
I agree with Dawkins here except implying that this is censorship. They voluntarily chose to not speak at the University due to pressure from a segment of the student body. I don't think that constitutes this selection as having censored the speaker.
I'm not censoring someone if I tell them I don't want them to come over here and talk to me and they oblige.
I'm not censoring someone if I tell them I don't want them to come over here and talk to me and they oblige.
1. They're paying for the roof.
2. If you think "trans women are women" should be challenged, that's really disappointing.
I stated earlier that I think Dawkins is probably right to defend her ability to speak her nonsense, but I also think the people also have a right to do as they have and denounce her on the basis that she is transphobic. I could be wrong, but it kind of seems like the system of free speech is actually working as intended here; she's not coming anymore, and it's because people said they didn't want to hear it (presumably because, ironically, they have already heard what she had to say through some other format).
I would have preferred a response from Dawkins more like "What she has to say about trans-people is rubbish, but she has a right to say it" rather than it sounding like he was defending some adult topic of scientific merit (presuming, perhaps incorrectly, that her talk would also include any kind of transphobic message) -- would have liked to hear his actual opinion.
"Transwomen aren't women" is an example. Any sort of opinion that someone doesn't deserve equal treatment because of their gender identity, sex, color, orientation, ability, etc. should not be treated like it's a valid or correct viewpoint. It's not.
Neoriceisgood
Member
So ... does Dawkins hug his teddy and suck his thumb when he refuses to debate creationists?
Yeah I also agree. I think the thought I have about this is "I wish everyone -wanted- to challenge others with bad ideas in an open and academic setting"
minor effort
Banned
In a way it encourages these hostile "contrarian" views when you offer speaking fees for it. Universities should strenuously examine what value, if any, people with views largely categorized as hateful holds for the public discourse.
Being a loud, hateful, snarky person already has enough currency online and on talk radio. Universities should aspire for higher levels of discourse.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I have no problem with social pariahdim as a concept. Unless we're debating over how hateful her views actually are, but I don't think we are. Is there really no opinion so abhorrent you don't think people and institutions should actively go out of their way to reject its followers?
Moral Panic
Member
No it's not.
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