Support NeoGAF

[racerx]

So just to make sure,
Is this backdoor supposed to provide emulation of ps2 possible for the slims or is it just some technical talk I can ignore while getting out the ps2 out of its closet?

Not possible. At least most likely we'll never see a ps2 emulator on the ps3. The problem is the ps2 graphics synthesizer had some memory bandwidth that exceeded the RSX.

 

[Solid Moustache]

nvm, beaten. Delete this post. disresgard that i suck c0cks.

 

[androvsky]

Right now I believe it is. I think you only have access to the 256 system memory and not the memory the GPU uses. I believe that's locked out, but I think it should be usable if the system is fully compromised. Someone who knows more about the PS3's architecture may be able to clear that up.

Linux on the PS3 has been able to use the the video memory as a swap drive for at least a year. It's an official part of the kernel, advertised as part of YDL 6.1, and when bugs crop up with the swap memory driver it's fixed by a Sony employee (Geoff, iirc).

 

[yurinka]

Not possible. At least most likely we'll never see a ps2 emulator on the ps3. The problem is the ps2 graphics synthesizer had some memory bandwidth that exceeded the RSX.

The PS2 emulator for PC runs very well.

 

[androvsky]

The PS2 emulator for PC runs very well.

On a PC, yes. Anybody ever run PCSX2 on a PC with a Geforce 7800?

 

[inner-G]

The PS2 emulator for PC runs very well.

I don't know that much, but I remember a thread here where people said that the GS had a much larger framebuffer than the RSX, and that devs exploited it to pull off effects that they couldn't have otherwise.

It's not just a matter of writing software. It's a hardware limitation.

 

[Koren]

The PS2 emulator for PC runs very well.

The fact that PS3 is unable to replicate some of the GS capabilities doesn't mean that nothing will work. There's only some games that will have issues, but you won't come close to 100%.

And that's the problem with BC. An emulator with a decent compatibility will be seen as a success. Used (and advertised) as BC solution, it can be pretty bad publicity. And they probably don't want to deal with customers that ask "why my game X doesn't work?".

If you talk about PCSX2, the compatibility list only ~55% of the game "playable", and that doesn't take into consideration any performances problems. And PS3 GPU isn't a beast neither.

 

[gregor7777]

Linux on the PS3 has been able to use the the video memory as a swap drive for at least a year. It's an official part of the kernel, advertised as part of YDL 6.1, and when bugs crop up with the swap memory driver it's fixed by a Sony employee (Geoff, iirc).

But again, 256 system memory with a fast 256 swap still isn't as good as a true 512 memory bank. There is no way to argue with that fact.

On a PC, yes. Anybody ever run PCSX2 on a PC with a Geforce 7800?

GPU is nearly the least of your concerns. Any modern video card will work well, given you have a powerhouse CPU. PCSX2 is extremely CPU dependent. Almost exclusively so.

 

[racerx]

Linux on the PS3 has been able to use the the video memory as a swap drive for at least a year. It's an official part of the kernel, advertised as part of YDL 6.1, and when bugs crop up with the swap memory driver it's fixed by a Sony employee (Geoff, iirc).

Yes, but the problem is that the PS3's graphics ram has a really slow read rate from what I remember. For ram to be really useful from a code/data execution point of view, you need to read and write to it at blazing speed. Otherwise, the slow ram is just like a hard drive.

Of course the graphics ram isn't useless, you could store graphics data, but you can't really store application code and data.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

I feel "but companies are still making large profits" is one of the worst arguments to suggest piracy doesn't damage the industry or harm consumers. The relative security and level of piracy for any given platform factors into profitability for individual titles and companies, and this factors into things such as project greenlighting, budget, and platform mix considerations. If piracy becomes rife on a platform then titles which might otherwise have been made won't be made. Not to mention platform holders may change policy or implementations around DRM for either the platform in question or future platforms. In those instances, consumers would be affected, though it would be difficult to "see".

But this discussion is probably best kept for another thread.

And again I point to the most successful console ever made which is the PS2 and it was hacked. Did project greenlighting, budget, and platform mix considerations have any effect on that system after it was hacked? No. Did projects not get made for the PS2 because of it... I really doubt it. Pretty much every change regarding DRM and things that like so far have been transparent to the end user which is who I keep hearing is going to be affected. I'm not arguing that it's right, I'm stating that the argument that the end user is affected by a companies change to the DRM internally affects them in negative and I'm just not seeing it in previously hacked systems.

If Sony can't emulate a PS2 on a PS3 nobody can. Sony would have a lot to gain by doing this, but they haven't probably because they can't.

Who says they haven't and just haven't announced it yet?

 

[Elan tedronai]

And again I point to the most successful console ever made which is the PS2 and it was hacked. Did project greenlighting, budget, and platform mix considerations have any effect on that system after it was hacked? No. Did projects not get made for the PS2 because of it... I really doubt it. Pretty much every change regarding DRM and things that like so far have been transparent to the end user which is who I keep hearing is going to be affected. I'm not arguing that it's right, I'm stating that the argument that the end user is affected by a companies change to the DRM internally affects them in negative and I'm just not seeing it in previously hacked systems.

the ps2 software sales was unaffected by huge levels of piracy because it had huge marketshare to buffer it. Something the ps3 does not possess. Market leaders are seldom affected by piracy.

Those that lag behind the front runners do. that's what happened to the dreamcast and the psp

 

[yurinka]

The fact that PS3 is unable to replicate some of the GS capabilities doesn't mean that nothing will work. There's only some games that will have issues, but you won't come close to 100%.

And that's the problem with BC. An emulator with a decent compatibility will be seen as a success. Used (and advertised) as BC solution, it can be pretty bad publicity. And they probably don't want to deal with customers that ask "why my game X doesn't work?".

If you talk about PCSX2, the compatibility list only ~55% of the game "playable", and that doesn't take into consideration any performances problems. And PS3 GPU isn't a beast neither.

I'm a game coder, I know it's not possible trying to emulate strictly PS2, trying to throw the PS2 GPU work to the PS3 GPU.

But I'm pretty sure there must be smarter solutions than brute force emulation. Hear what PSN director said in PSM:

http://kotaku.com/355645/is-playstation-3-backwards-compatibility-dead-maybe-not

The one version of the PlayStation 3 that currently supports PlayStation 2 software—via emulation of the "Emotion Engine"—looks like it's about to go the way of the dodo. Exactly how crushed should those of us be, should we want to experience PS2 classics on our future PS3s? Oh, totally crushed for now, but the future may provide a glimmer of hope, backing us away from the ledge. PlayStation Network director Eric Lempell says there are "possibilities" the PS2 playing capabilities could come back to the gutted PS3 in the most recent issue of EGM.

When asked by the mag if the now BC-less console kills any chance of offering PS2 games via the PlayStation Store, as it does for original PlayStation games, Lempel said "We haven't talked about that yet, but there are possibilities through technology and software emulation to make that possibles."

Lempell chose not to talk about "specific plans at this point" but that doesn't mean we can't hope. And pray. And start online petitions.

The full interview, which is actually with Sony Computer Entertainment SVP of marketing Peter Dille—he says backward compatibility is "important to us"—is in the newest issue of EGM, which is in subscriber hands now. We hope that 1UP will publish the interview online, in-full, at some point soon.

There's also the Sega and Sony meeting doc leak talking about future PS2 and Dreamcast emulation in PS3.

http://www.edge-online.com/news/leaked-sonys-motion-control-plans-ps2-emulator-for-ps3

And also I remember a Sony presentation talking about PSN future, where they mentioned PS2 games to be downloadable in the future for PSP (J) and PS3. There was even a picture of this powerpoint page, but sorry now I can't find the link.

I think maybe it won't be strict typical emulation, and for sure it won't work for all games, but it's coming for sure.

People like me thinks that they temporally stopped BC while the more profitable PS2 HW stop selling. I bet shortly after it stops selling, and the PS3 HW becomes profitable, they will bring back some form of PS2 BC, or at least they are going to sell PS2 games in PSN (maybe more ported than emulated).

 

[OldJadedGamer]

the ps2 software sales was unaffected by huge levels of piracy because it had huge marketshare to buffer it. Something the ps3 does not possess. Market leaders are seldom affected by piracy.

Those that lag behind the front runners do. that's what happened to the dreamcast and the psp

Again, I'm not talking about piracy or sales. There were people that I was quoting that said that the security measures and DRM that the console maker put into the system to stop this would hurt the end user and make for a worse user experience and I'm still not seeing any example of this from previous systems that were hacked.

 

[skrew]

Again, I'm not talking about piracy or sales. There were people that I was quoting that said that the security measures and DRM that the console maker put into the system to stop this would hurt the end user and make for a worse user experience and I'm still not seeing any example of this from previous systems that were hacked.

You already have, otheros was used to crack the hypervisor and has already been removed. And will probably never be an option in a Sony console again.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

You already have, otheros was used to crack the hypervisor and has already been removed. And will probably never be an option in a Sony console again.

That didn't affect any games in any way. All the same games I had on my fat unit work perfectly fine on my slim unit. And it can be up for debate on exactly why OtherOS was removed. Sony already stated it was too expensive to keep supporting and no one used it so it was just a waste. Is this true? Who knows... but is it a valid excuse to remove it, yes it is.

 

[skrew]

That didn't affect any games in any way. All the same games I had on my fat unit work perfectly fine on my slim unit.

But it did make it worse for end users who wanted to install linux. Stop moving the goal post.

 

[androvsky]

But again, 256 system memory with a fast 256 swap still isn't as good as a true 512 memory bank. There is no way to argue with that fact.

I was arguing with that fact? No, it's not perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than swapping to disk.

Yes, but the problem is that the PS3's graphics ram has a really slow read rate from what I remember. For ram to be really useful from a code/data execution point of view, you need to read and write to it at blazing speed. Otherwise, the slow ram is just like a hard drive.

Of course the graphics ram isn't useless, you could store graphics data, but you can't really store application code and data.

You're thinking of the read/write speed from the Cell to the video RAM, which is slow to the point of being completely useless for pretty much anything. The way the current kernel patch works is it tells the RSX to DMA a chunk of memory to and from video RAM. It's a bit of a kludge, but it's pretty fast for a swap drive; about 350 MB/s. Considering the typical PS3 hard drive is under 40 MB/s, it's a real improvement.

I don't think any hack is going to change those numbers. I'm not aware of any faster way of using video memory on the PS3, like I said before, the direct Cell read/write is much slower than even the hard drive.

GPU is nearly the least of your concerns. Any modern video card will work well, given you have a powerhouse CPU. PCSX2 is extremely CPU dependent. Almost exclusively so.

PCSX2 is extremely CPU dependent, yes. It's for the Emotion Engine emulation, right? That's the part that Sony does have running in software on the PS3, oddly enough.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

But it did make it worse for end users who wanted to install linux. Stop moving the goal post.

I edited my post to add that there were other valid reasons to delete this option that had nothing to do with piracy. There are many things that get removed from systems when they are upgraded to save money and not every single one of them is to stop the system from being hacked unless you think the PS2 having it's firewire port removed was because of the leet hackers.

Using the removal of the OtherOS as something that hurts the average end user is a string to hold to at most. Maybe 1% of all PS3 owners even used this.

 

[racerx]

Again, I'm not talking about piracy or sales. There were people that I was quoting that said that the security measures and DRM that the console maker put into the system to stop this would hurt the end user and make for a worse user experience and I'm still not seeing any example of this from previous systems that were hacked.

I'll give 2 examples

1. The ps2 went through multiple revisions to fight off modders, and because of this, some of the original ps2's couldn't play the newer games.

2. Why is it that we have to buy hard drives specifically from microsoft? Why can't we put in our own hard disks? I would guess a large part of the reason is microsoft's fear of piracy and iso loaders. IMO, I always felt microsoft was justified in doing this, but they get so much crap for people saying how microsoft is ripping off the consumer.

 

[2San]

A bit off topic and probably a retarded question, but I'll ask anyhow. Why is it that the PSX emulators or PS2 emulator need hardware so much better then original consoles? Sure they need to run windows as well, but I doubt it's just that.

 

[Alec]

I'll give 2 examples

1. The ps2 went through multiple revisions to fight off modders, and because of this, some of the original ps2's couldn't play the newer games.

2. Why is it that we have to buy hard drives specifically from microsoft? Why can't we put in our own hard disks? I would guess a large part of the reason is microsoft's fear of piracy and iso loaders. IMO, I always felt microsoft was justified in doing this, but they get so much crap for people saying how microsoft is ripping off the consumer.

1. Examples?

2. With a bit of hackery, you can use your own hard drive. It in no way opened the door for piracy or homebrew.

 

[racerx]

1. Examples?

2. With a bit of hackery, you can use your own hard drive. It in no way opened the door for piracy or homebrew.

1. I don't remember, I think it was gran turismo 4(or final fantasy 12?) that people said was unplayable on some of the early models of the ps2.

2. The original question was, "How have consumers been harmed by the resulting DRM caused by hacks?". Yes, there are things one could do to get any hard drive working. But unless they become mod geeks, you can't deny the average consumer was hurt in forcing to be these marked up hard drives .

 

[Alec]

1. I don't remember, I think it was gran turismo 4(or final fantasy 12?) that people said was unplayable on some of the early models of the ps2.

2. The original question was, "How have consumers been harmed by the resulting DRM caused by hacks?". Yes, there are things one could do to get any hard drive working. But unless they become mod geeks, you can't deny the average consumer was hurt in forcing to be these marked up hard drives .

1. Both of those games still work fine on my launch PS2. I believe that the people reporting these facts had faulty systems.

2. You're right, the average consumer is absolutely being screwed.

 

[Dreamgazer]

1) "Consumer"

1)Yes, consumers...so who cares if hardware companies make profits. Again, as stated earlier, the point was to moot the justification of using the "because companies makes profits so it's okay" argument.

2) You're just throwing in a platform where "Homebrew" is ... well, already available ... how does your response even make sense???

Well..."homebrew" technically applies only to a system to non-programmable system, so yes using PC as an argument is kind of silly on my part. However, the point was that PC is a great example where user altercation (on the software part) has lead to DRM and DMAC headaches as other have mentioned. Also, I've also stated the remove of RSX access, etc for a console example. (Others have mentioned Sony's removal of OtherOS also, but we can only speculate the reason for that one.)

3) See 1)

#4
Did the ability to play bootlegs on relatively inexpensive CDR's help the PS1 defeat the N64?
Did the almost immediate moddability of PS2 help Sony keep their crown as King of Console Makers?
Did the ability to load a bunch of backups of games you own onto one MicroSD card on DS help it maintain great software sales?


the point is that just about every system except PS3 has had piracy, and some of them did extremely well and others did extremely poorly, and others were somewhere in between.

That point is the same as the contrast I used in this:
"Did the ability to play iso/cso eventually lend a hand to poor psp sofware sales?"
"Did X360's hackability eventually lend a hand to its current market?"

"No one can tell for sure."

So I don't really understand what we're disagreeing about here.

unless you're having a problem with this statement:
"Homebrews = good, piracy (or pointless hacking ) = bad."

 

[OldJadedGamer]

1. I don't remember, I think it was gran turismo 4(or final fantasy 12?) that people said was unplayable on some of the early models of the ps2.

2. The original question was, "How have consumers been harmed by the resulting DRM caused by hacks?". Yes, there are things one could do to get any hard drive working. But unless they become mod geeks, you can't deny the average consumer was hurt in forcing to be these marked up hard drives .

I have a launch PS2 and those two games work fine last time I played them. If you are going to try to back up your point, you should be using solid examples not guesses.

 

[Elan tedronai]

Again, I'm not talking about piracy or sales. There were people that I was quoting that said that the security measures and DRM that the console maker put into the system to stop this would hurt the end user and make for a worse user experience and I'm still not seeing any example of this from previous systems that were hacked.

i see what you mean. in a way security measures are double edged thing. obviously it's designed to protect the platform holders and developers. but on the flip side with an issue like this sony might go to extreme measures for security purposes and that might hurt the honest consumer

 

[itxaka]

2. Why is it that we have to buy hard drives specifically from microsoft? Why can't we put in our own hard disks? I would guess a large part of the reason is microsoft's fear of piracy and iso loaders. IMO, I always felt microsoft was justified in doing this, but they get so much crap for people saying how microsoft is ripping off the consumer.

Nope. See the wireless adapter price as example. Ms makes a killing profit on accesories, nothing to do with anything else.

 

[blu]

You're thinking of the read/write speed from the Cell to the video RAM, which is slow to the point of being completely useless for pretty much anything.

corrected.

 

[racerx]

I have a launch PS2 and those two games work fine last time I played them. If you are going to try to back up your point, you should be using solid examples not guesses.

well, even if my first point doesn't stand, the 2nd one does.

Are you that dense that you can't see that increased security harms the average consumer?

Securom, sony's root kit, etc..

these are all company responses to protecting their products from being exploited.

Just look at the all characteristic of consoles: harddrive encryption, proprietary hard disks, proprietary dvd firmware, etc.. These are all extra layers the average consumer has to face.

Look if geohotz's hack turns out to require a physical mod, then, for the most part I don't think Sony is going to do anything new. But if this is softmod hack, like the psp, then Sony will probably come out a with a new model of PS3 with either the hard drive permanently attached or with a proprietary system like microsoft. As a consumer who has no interest in homebrew, how has this helped them? The honest and average consumer is the one who is usually screwed from this escalation of war between the console makers/developers and homebrew hackers.

 

[Alec]

The honest and average consumer is the one who is usually screwed from this escalation of war between the console makers/developers and homebrew hackers.

Then tell them to give up the war. =P

 

[racerx]

Then tell them to give up the war. =P

well, good luck with that.

"Hey microsoft, sony, can you just release consoles with no security?"

"Hey geohotz, xbox hackers, can you stop trying to hack consoles?"

 

[charlequin]

2. Why is it that we have to buy hard drives specifically from microsoft? Why can't we put in our own hard disks? I would guess a large part of the reason is microsoft's fear of piracy and iso loaders.

Boooooooooooooooolsheet.

 

[Koren]

1. Examples?

As far as I remember, most problems were linked to PS2 launch models in Japan. I think SO3 was problematic, for example. Launch PS2 in US were already revisions, so problem were more unusual.

Sony acknowledge the issue, but said it was because some devs didn't respect the development rules and used forbidden functions.

There's also some compatibility problems with first batch of PSTwo (slim model)

 

[androvsky]

Look if geohotz's hack turns out to require a physical mod, then, for the most part I don't think Sony is going to do anything new. But if this is softmod hack, like the psp, then Sony will probably come out a with a new model of PS3 with either the hard drive permanently attached or with a proprietary system like microsoft. As a consumer who has no interest in homebrew, how has this helped them? The honest and average consumer is the one who is usually screwed from this escalation of war between the console makers/developers and homebrew hackers.

How does that change anything? The hard drives being removable has nothing to do with this hack, and they're encrypted with a proprietary file system already.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

well, even if my first point doesn't stand, the 2nd one does.

Are you that dense that you can't see that increased security harms the average consumer?

Securom, sony's root kit, etc..

these are all company responses to protecting their products from being exploited.

Just look at the all characteristic of consoles: harddrive encryption, proprietary hard disks, proprietary dvd firmware, etc.. These are all extra layers the average consumer has to face.

Look if geohotz's hack turns out to require a physical mod, then, for the most part I don't think Sony is going to do anything new. But if this is softmod hack, like the psp, then Sony will probably come out a with a new model of PS3 with either the hard drive permanently attached or with a proprietary system like microsoft. As a consumer who has no interest in homebrew, how has this helped them? The honest and average consumer is the one who is usually screwed from this escalation of war between the console makers/developers and homebrew hackers.

Hey, don't get snarky with me. As a junior, I'm giving you advice on posting here. If you want to back up a point, make sure it's solid and not a guess. Also, all the security stuff is for PCs. We are not talking about PCs, we are talking about consoles.

I'm still failing to see any thing that you've said that affects me playing games. The PS2 was hacked almost a decade ago and I haven't been affected on bit by Sony's anti-security measures one bit when playing games. Games still play and are just as fun. Same with the 360. MS banning consoles has nothing to do with me and every game I buy in the store plays just fine on my legit unmodded machine. Again, any security measure is transparent to me. You talk about propriety drives for the 360 but those have been there since launch... nothing changed after it was hacked.

You can play "what if's" all day long on what Sony "might" do in the future but let's look at past experiences since those can be pointed to with no doubt if the security measures put in ultimately hurt the average user.

As far as I remember, most problems were linked to PS2 launch models in Japan. I think SO3 was problematic, for example. Launch PS2 in US were already revisions, so problem were more unusual.

Sony acknowledge the issue, but said it was because some devs didn't respect the development rules and used forbidden functions.

There's also some compatibility problems with first batch of PSTwo (slim model)

Right, there were some issues with the movie the Matrix not playing correctly on some PS2 units not because of piracy or anti-security measures but because the tech changed on the DVD side. Just because there are hiccups with first gen hardware can't be associated with anti-piracy measures.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

I say he abandon this hack and start on trying to mod the PS3 to accept Xbox 360 USB controllers. Buying 2 sets of 4 controllers is so annoying...

 

[Alec]

I say he abandon this hack and start on trying to mod the PS3 to accept Xbox 360 USB controllers. Buying 2 sets of 4 controllers is so annoying...

God damn that would be awesome.

Spoiler

But how would I play Lair?!

 

[Roofy]

I say he abandon this hack and start on trying to mod the PS3 to accept Xbox 360 USB controllers. Buying 2 sets of 4 controllers is so annoying...

this would be the only thing i really need

also

your avatar scares me silly

 

[racerx]

How does that change anything? The hard drives being removable has nothing to do with this hack, and they're encrypted with a proprietary file system already.

Well, if the ps3 is hacked and the security is compromised, the encryption key for file system, which btw is probably not stored in the cell will also be compromised. Sony will respond to this "problem" by limiting the harddrive.

OldJadedGamer, all I can say is that we'll have to agree to disagree. A person can't force reason down someone else's throat(I mean this in going both directions).

 

[Alec]

Well, if the ps3 is hacked and the security is compromised, the encryption key for file system, which btw is probably not stored in the cell will also be compromised. Sony will respond to this "problem" by limiting the harddrive.

While I am not saying that this is impossible, I just can't see a way they could further limit the harddrive. Any hardware limitations that they implemented in future models couldn't impact consumers without breaking necessary functions...and if they attempted to implement new security through software, then it can just be patched out as long as you still have control of the hypervisor (according to Geohot).

 

[NinjaTehFish]

Reading this thread and the similar ones that pop up from time to time , its really sad to see the otherwise level headed intelligent posters who seem all too willing too shit on the foundations of our culture.
like it or not our little hobby would be a pale shadow of itself if not for the people willing to push hardware and software to its limits. homebrew made gaming what it is today from having to type your own damn games to overclocking from 80 to 90 mhz. Hell even mario was practically a radar scope hack!

 

[JudgeN]

My opinion on this is, PS3 is not in the best position unlike the PS2,PS1,and Wii. You have to make games on those consoles due to the userbase but with the PS3 being expensive to develop for and not really having a huge userbase any type of "hack" can make developers thinks a little differently about making games for the console. I know there are people that want homebrew but I want to keep the games coming.

Hey, don't get snarky with me. As a junior, I'm giving you advice on posting here. If you want to back up a point, make sure it's solid and not a guess. Also, all the security stuff is for PCs. We are not talking about PCs, we are talking about consoles.

I'm still failing to see any thing that you've said that affects me playing games. The PS2 was hacked almost a decade ago and I haven't been affected on bit by Sony's anti-security measures one bit when playing games. Games still play and are just as fun. Same with the 360. MS banning consoles has nothing to do with me and every game I buy in the store plays just fine on my legit unmodded machine. Again, any security measure is transparent to me. You talk about propriety drives for the 360 but those have been there since launch... nothing changed after it was hacked.

You can play "what if's" all day long on what Sony "might" do in the future but let's look at past experiences since those can be pointed to with no doubt if the security measures put in ultimately hurt the average user.



Right, there were some issues with the movie the Matrix not playing correctly on some PS2 units not because of piracy or anti-security measures but because the tech changed on the DVD side. Just because there are hiccups with first gen hardware can't be associated with anti-piracy measures.

PS3 can be firmware updated though unlike the PS2, Sony can and sure as hell will push more DRM/Anti Security measure with the PS3. They do not want another PSP on there hands.

 

[3rdman]

God damn that would be awesome.

Spoiler

But how would I play Lair?!

You couldn't which suddenly makes the game better!

 

[travisbickle]

My opinion on this is, PS3 is not in the best position unlike the PS2,PS1,and Wii. You have to make games on those consoles due to the userbase but with the PS3 being expensive to develop for and not really having a huge userbase any type of "hack" can make developers thinks a little differently about making games for the console. I know there are people that want homebrew but I want to keep the games coming.

There are still people that think the PS3 is just a circumstance away from becoming "Saturn'd"!!

 

[OldJadedGamer]

OldJadedGamer, all I can say is that we'll have to agree to disagree. A person can't force reason down someone else's throat(I mean this in going both directions).

This I can agree with.

PS3 can be firmware updated though unlike the PS2, Sony can and sure as hell will push more DRM/Anti Security measure with the PS3. They do not want another PSP on there hands.

And I will point to the 360 who's firmware can be updated as well and I've had a system since launch and have not noticed any extra security features or anti-piracy measures in place that have affected me playing games on my legit system. Any security measures that annoy me, have been there since launch and not added since it's been hacked which is what people were saying that new security measures would have a negative impact on the end user.

 

[Cruzader]

My opinion on this is, PS3 is not in the best position unlike the PS2,PS1,and Wii. You have to make games on those consoles due to the userbase but with the PS3 being expensive to develop for and not really having a huge userbase any type of "hack" can make developers thinks a little differently about making games for the console. I know there are people that want homebrew but I want to keep the games coming.



PS3 can be firmware updated though unlike the PS2, Sony can and sure as hell will push more DRM/Anti Security measure with the PS3. They do not want another PSP on there hands.

yup, I agree. Dont know why some ppls are comparing PS2/Wii software/hardware sales to PS3.

 

[JudgeN]

This I can agree with.



And I will point to the 360 who's firmware can be updated as well and I've had a system since launch and have not noticed any extra security features or anti-piracy measures in place that have affected me playing games on my legit system. Any security measures that annoy me, have been there since launch and not added since it's been hacked which is what people were saying that new security measures would have a negative impact on the end user.

Maybe I'm confused but don't 360's have to be hardware modded to get homebrew or haven't been updated in like 1 year 1/2? Isn't this PS3 hack a hole in the OS so it would be more like the PSP.

There are still people that think the PS3 is just a circumstance away from becoming "Saturn'd"!!

Maybe not "saturn'd" but that doesn't change the fact of what position the PS3 is in compared to the other hacked consoles, and beside we never know publishers could get "Smart" and start pumping out awasome sauce Wii games, then PS3 and the 360 shall be fucked

Spoiler

But probably not

 

[OldJadedGamer]

Maybe I'm confused but don't 360's have to be hardware modded to get homebrew or haven't been updated in like 1 year 1/2? Isn't this PS3 hack a hole in the OS so it would be more like the PSP.

My point and I will leave it at this since I'm tired of talking about the subject is that end consumers for consoles in the present nor past have been negativity affected by the console maker putting in more anti-piracy measures into the machines. That's all I'm saying and have gone on way too many posts repeating it since there hasn't been any valid examples of this happening so it really shouldn't be a concern which some have argued against.

 

[Mario]

And again I point to the most successful console ever made which is the PS2 and it was hacked. Did project greenlighting, budget, and platform mix considerations have any effect on that system after it was hacked? No. Did projects not get made for the PS2 because of it... I really doubt it.

You are wrong. I know of multiple PS2 (and Xbox and PSP and PC) titles that either never got made or had the parameters of the project effected in part because of piracy concerns.

For a specific example I can talk about, piracy is the single biggest reason why our studio has moved away from supporting PSP both at retail and via PSN.

 

[Elan tedronai]

You are wrong. I know of multiple PS2 (and Xbox and PSP and PC) titles that either never got made or had the parameters of the project effected in part because of piracy concerns.

For a specific example I can talk about, piracy is the single biggest reason why our studio has moved away from supporting PSP both at retail and via PSN.

mario can i ask you something? since you have close connections to the higher ups at sony, are they aware about this whole incident in the first place?