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[jax (old)]

movie presents a clash of cultures. but trying to saying its one or the other - whether it is anti science/tribalism.. is just going a bit too far. What the movie does present is how wrong advanced technology - how much damage it can do.

Its entertainment and its great entertainment. Some of you suck the joy out of everything.

 

[StuBurns]

The Na'vi's development as a technological community isn't important at all, the point is they live in balance with their surroundings, unlike the humans. They could be using cell phones and it wouldn't matter.

 

[avatar299]

It's shame on these humans to be so careless and incurious of the world around them. They treat Pandora like it is Earth, when clearly there are powerful, alien forces around them, forces they don't understand and perhaps refuse to understand. It's not an indictment of technology, it's an indictment of our attitude toward it. We should respect the Navi because they are self aware, not because they're primitive.

I'm afraid you missed the point entirely.

And I'm afraid you missed the part where the CEO says they tried to do that multiple times, but the navi were uncooperative every step of the way.

 

[Veidt]

I would pay 80 dollars for a blu-ray right now

 

[Zeliard]

Nah, the movie was clearly anti-technology. You know how much everyone hated the most advanced piece of technology in the entire movie? I forget what it was called but I'm pretty sure the movie was named after it and it allowed the entire story to even happen. This movie hates technology and science.

I still don't see how people are getting this. The movie is very clearly saying that technology is neutral - it isn't inherently good or evil, the way it's used is. The Avatar system being used to foster strong and mutually beneficial relationships with a friendly alien race is a great thing, and a very positive application of technology. The Avatar system being used to covertly infiltrate, manipulate and sabotage, however, is effectively the opposite.

Ultimately, by the end, Jake

Spoiler

would be a cripple in a wheelchair living on a ruined Earth without technology, instead of some physically-advanced, elegant 10ft tall humanoid with a hot piece of blue ass as a wife on some gorgeous, exotic alien planet.

 

[StuBurns]

And I'm afraid you missed the part where the CEO says they tried to do that multiple times, but the navi were uncooperative every step of the way.

Uncooperative towards what? The concept of their home being torn down for a mineral? Yeah, I'm sure they were, I don't see that as some sort of plot hole, it's not the Na'vi being stubborn really.

 

[Blackhead]

Spoiler

Yeah it was very much anti-science. The Navi weren't scientific or even had a real understanding of the processes that gave them what they had. They approached everything with a childish naivete, and we are just supposed to be okay with that. Not only okay with it, but moved by it. Why? What is pure or better about anything they do? No reasons yet the human scenes are considerably darker and dearier than the navi scenes. Sucks to be human with our lack of connection to mother earth and reliance on science.

It reminds of the Disney movie, Pocahontas where the girl makes a plea to John Smith to understand the color of the wind, as if there is some pure essence in just forgoing science and focusing solely on what is around you.

Also i found the whole scientific explanation for their god or whatever to be pretty out there. It was nothing but an excuse to open a door into the possibility that a "miracle" or act of god will occur during the final fight. If you pay attention to that scene, the animals charging and stuff should have been obvious.

It comments on capatalism are incredibly moronic, so it hits the usual bar for hollywood logic. They move to a new planet to mine a mineral that is valuable.....oh and it will save a dying planet. Lets ignore that until the epilogue. That's not a reason why this company exists. it's solely becuase of greed.

They make another comment about shareholders valuing money over lives.....at the same time telling us the reason why Avatars are so desperately needed is communicate with the navi and ignore bloodshed as to avoid a PR problem so clearly the shareholders and their consumers are worried about things other than just profit while their planet is dying. They tried to shoehorn typical "buisness is bad" rainforest cliches into some military complex that just doesn't work. Why would they hire mercenaries up the ass to get rid of the navi when doing so would trigger, literally a world war and potentially destroy the resources they are looking for?

All for greed.
These black and white characters can work with singular people or even groups, but when you try to condemn an entire system, you have to be a little nuanced.

In the world of Pandora technology is not great. In this world technology falls to bows and arrows. In this world technology makes you weaker, a less skilled fighter or less adept pilot. Despite that making no sense at any point in the movie it's always there.

ugh.

SPOILERS BELOW

You don't even understand what technology is. Bows and arrows are technology. Figuring out that you can connect with the animals and using that to ride them is technology.

You've also failed to show that they are anti-science or even naively mystic. They take care to learn English. They test out hypothesis about what the 'dream walkers' are. They decide to observe Jake and see what he does. The movie goes to lengths to include dialogue from the actual human 'scientists' that show what the Navi have discovered is explainable in biology terms.

Your confusion about the corporation's antics is laughable. Don't use the "dying planet" as a red herring, there is no indication that the mineral was needed to save the planet. Corporations going after wealth at expense of people is their modus operandi right now in our world. If you don't know that corporations care about their public image then you are the one being naive (especially as the Researchers had already published a book about the Navi, sure to spread knowledge of them on the home planet). Tarnishing their public image with a massacre would ultimately hurt the bottom line as well, duh (it could provoke protests, boycotts, government regulation etc).

The point the fillm tries to make is that there are different ways to use technology. Not that technology is inherently evil. You can listen to James Cameron explain it himself.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

That's the thing that gets me about the Na'vi... they have a literal direct line into a global organic brain so of course they live in harmony with nature. The Humans have no such thing and are seen to be wrong and evil for destroying nature? I see the humans doing that to Earth in the same way a caterpillar consumes a leaf before it transforms into a butterfly but in this case Humans will consume and transform into a space-faring civilisation.

Yeah I'd preserve Pandora but only because I have the end goal in mind (using it as a colony for further travel). Fuck the Na'vi for getting in the Humans way.

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

And I'm afraid you missed the part where the CEO says they tried to do that multiple times, but the navi were uncooperative every step of the way.

And you take his word over everything else you saw on screen? Where in the entire movie did they show that the humans (other than the scientists of course) cared for what's going on on this planet other than the metal they were after? His character was established as calculated and untrustworthy from the get-go.

 

[Blackhead]

That's the thing that gets me about the Na'vi... they have a literal direct line into a global organic brain so of course they live in harmony with nature. The Humans have no such thing and are seen to be wrong and evil for destroying nature? I see the humans doing that to Earth in the same way a caterpillar consumes a leaf before it transforms into a butterfly but in this case Humans will consume and transform into a space-faring civilisation.

Yeah I'd preserve Pandora but only because I have the end goal in mind (using it as a colony for further travel). Fuck the Na'vi for getting in the Humans way.

:lol

 

[Deleted member 30609]

oh man. people piss on the gaming side of GAF, but no thread on the gaming side has left me as disgusted as some of the tripe in this thread. movie-GAF is the worst.

 

[10dollas]

Well I just viewed it in 2d after taking a few days to come down to earth from watching it in 3d. No doubt, after watching in 3D, I had called it one of my favorite movies at the time due to its immersive properties. However, after seeing it 2d coupled with that fact during the second viewing I wasn't as filled with emotion, it made me realize just how average this movie is. I won't go over specifically why, as that has been beaten and spanked to submission repeatedly over the course of this whole thread. But it is a true shame, that the writers, or cameron after having 12 twelve years to develop the concept couldn't produce a more original story. However, to his credit, even though I could accurately predict most the events and whatnot (which in most movies this would greatly reduce the enjoyability of said movies), this did not dampen my enjoyment of avatar.

Here is a link to all the background information not included in the movie itself. It explains a great deal not covered by the movie, like how unobtainium is a superconductor required for maglev trains, aka incredibly fast trains used to interconnect the economies of Earth.
http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Pandora

 

[Binabik15]

And you take his word over everything else you saw on screen? Where in the entire movie did they show that the humans (other than the scientists of course) cared for what's going on on this planet other than the metal they were after? His character was established as calculated and untrustworthy from the get-go.

Seeing how Neytiri almost shot Jake (and was possibly ordered by daddy to do so with avatars) I thinks it´s quite possbile that the Na´vi didn´t co-operate. But the humans are dicks as well, they traveled for almost 6 years and 200+ km is too much to avoid open conflict? :lol

 

[JGS]

And in science, consciousness exists within the bonds in the brain, so assuming there is anything even similar, which I don't think is a huge leap considering the fact human DNA can be combined with theirs, once the bonds lose charge, the consciousness is gone. It's as mystical as anything I've ever seen really. If someone could provide some sort of mega loose pseudo-scientific explanation for God, it doesn't stop it being mystical.

I agree to a point except for it being mystical.

There needs to be a biological/scientific (Even if you're religious) reference to memories and thought. We may not know what it is, but it's there. We just haven't figured how to acess it. Otherwise, everything we do now is mysticism. Memories remain in the brain regardless of if we are conscious of them or not which is why the Na'vi can access it.

Spoiler

They showed a tie between the two bodies when attempting the transfer, they established that everything apparently had a similar evolutionary connection making most things at l one with the planet and each other, kind of like umbilical chords, and they were clueless as to what was going to happen next.

I'm not looking at a dictionary, but movie mysticism almost always involves religious/spiritual action plus thought and usually prophecy which the Na'vi did not have. They were acting like natives with a realized faith (it could be proven) , but that's only because their faith was in the nature of Pandora itself- i.e. the science of it, not a god.

 

[StuBurns]

Seeing how Neytiri almost shot Jake (and was possibly ordered by daddy to do so with avatars) I thinks it´s quite possbile that the Na´vi didn´t co-operate. But the humans are dicks as well, they traveled for almost 6 years and 200+ km is too much to avoid open conflict? :lol

They used to be quite friendly, Grace had a school that was teaching English, you see photos of her hanging out with Neytiri and others. The reason Grace's avatar looks younger than the woman is because it was made 18 years ago. It would appear there was a time when humans and Na'vi were quite friendly, that changed when the humans starting shooting them.

I agree to a point except for it being mystical.

There needs to be a biological/scientific (Even if you're religious) reference to memories and thought. We may not know what it is, but it's there. We just haven't figured how to acess it. Otherwise, everything we do now is mysticism. Memories remain in the brain regardless of if we are conscious of them or not which is why the Na'vi can access it.

Spoiler

They showed a tie between the two bodies when attempting the transfer, they established that everything apparently had a similar evolutionary connection making most things at l one with the planet and each other, kind of like umbilical chords, and they were clueless as to what was going to happen next.

I'm not looking at a dictionary, but movie mysticism almost always involves religious/spiritual action plus thought and usually prophecy which the Na'vi did not have. They were acting like natives with a realized faith (it could be proven) , but that's only because their faith was in the nature of Pandora itself- i.e. the science of it, not a god.

I agree with pretty much all of that, I think we're on the same page, maybe a little semantics confusion is all.

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

Seeing how Neytiri almost shot Jake (and was possibly ordered by daddy to do so with avatars) I thinks it´s quite possbile that the Na´vi didn´t co-operate. But the humans are dicks as well, they traveled for almost 6 years and 200+ km is too much to avoid open conflict? :lol

Since the movie didn't explicitly say what was the extent to their desired level of "cooperation," I think the only assumptions we can make should be based on what the film showed. Obviously Cameron wanted us to blame the humans for the escalation, and since we have no evidence to show otherwise, we'll just have to take his word for it.

 

[skyfinch]

I heard that the rock they were mining was used to make some sort of chemical in order to make Cameron's penis strong. Is this true? They really didn't go into much detail about these magical stones.

 

[Keylime]

My wife really wants to see this again. She just randomly brought up yesterday as I was playing MW2 that she wants to see Avatar again...and all throughout the weekend she kept (completely randomly) mentioning how good of a movie she thought Avatar was.

...can't say I disagree with her, but I'm totally perplexed by her mysterious love of this movie :lol

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Oh another thing I forgot about:

Spoiler

The tree transferring Jake's consciousness is proof that Pandora holds the key to immortality. If Humans couldn't force the tree to do it then it's at least worth further study to see if they can replicate it.

Yet another reason why Humans won't let Pandora go (at least this part of it could be researched without warfare).

 

[jonnybryce]

I saw this last night in IMAX 3D.

It's very beautiful, especially the animals. I actually found the blue kittehs to be the least impressive thing in the movie, though they looked great.

The story was the same old thing.

Spoiler

I'm against you, no wait, you guys are cool, hey original team don't hurt my new friends, fine new friends let's hurt my old friends together.

Was expecting more, much more. But what can you do.

I'm unclear on some things...

1.

Spoiler

The first time Grace and Jake "fainted" did the Navi know then that they were sky people in fake bodies? Because they didn't get mad or care until later on, but it's pretty odd that the two new guys randomly faint all the time.

2.

Spoiler

Why the hell did the Na'Vi accept Jake in the first place? I know there was a sign, but the mother and everyone simply said "Oh, he's a warrior! Teach him everything about us." I don't see how this makes sense.

It was good. I'm not blown away or obsessed like I was with District 9, but I can see what the hypes about. The soundtrack was extremely underwhelming and just lazy, in my most honest opinion. But it really proved to me that 3d isn't just a gimmick.

 

[SolsticeZero]

I heard that the rock they were mining was used to make some sort of chemical in order to make Cameron's penis strong. Is this true? They really didn't go into much detail about these magical stones.

I'm assuming they're using it for some sort of power source, possibly some type of nuclear fusion. I mean, they're not fighting alien civilizations just to find some bricks for some condo's, ya know? At least, I hope they're not.

 

[Blackhead]

I'm assuming they're using it for some sort of power source, possibly some type of nuclear fusion. I mean, they're not fighting alien civilizations just to find some bricks for some condo's, ya know? At least, I hope they're not.

Wars have been fought over weirder reasons.

 

[StuBurns]

I saw this last night in IMAX 3D.

It's very beautiful, especially the animals. I actually found the blue kittehs to be the least impressive thing in the movie, though they looked great.

The story was the same old thing.

Spoiler

I'm against you, no wait, you guys are cool, hey original team don't hurt my new friends, fine new friends let's hurt my old friends together.

Was expecting more, much more. But what can you do.

I'm unclear on some things...

1.

Spoiler

The first time Grace and Jake "fainted" did the Navi know then that they were sky people in fake bodies? Because they didn't get mad or care until later on, but it's pretty odd that the two new guys randomly faint all the time.

2.

Spoiler

Why the hell did the Na'Vi accept Jake in the first place? I know there was a sign, but the mother and everyone simply said "Oh, he's a warrior! Teach him everything about us." I don't see how this makes sense.

It was good. I'm not blown away or obsessed like I was with District 9, but I can see what the hypes about. The soundtrack was extremely underwhelming and just lazy, in my most honest opinion. But it really proved to me that 3d isn't just a gimmick.

1, yeah, they knew.
2, 'there was a sign', about as much as you need to know. Also he said he was 'empty' so I guess they thought they'd try again to teach a human.

 

[avatar299]

And you take his word over everything else you saw on screen? Where in the entire movie did they show that the humans (other than the scientists of course) cared for what's going on on this planet other than the metal they were after? His character was established as calculated and untrustworthy from the get-go.

If all he wanted to do was kill aliens, why bother with the avatar's? Also if he was lying to Grace's face, why didn't she call him out on it?

We know Grace set up a school to interact with the navi children, so we know that wasn't a lie and there is no evidence to believe the rest of what he says was either.

You don't even understand what technology is. Bows and arrows are technology. Figuring out that you can connect with the animals and using that to ride them is technology.

So having archaic "technology" defeat far far more advanced tech is a pro-technology argument. Wonderful

You've also failed to show that they are anti-science or even naively mystic. They take care to learn English. They test out hypothesis about what the 'dream walkers' are. They decide to observe Jake and see what he does. The movie goes to lengths to include dialogue from the actual human 'scientists' that show what the Navi have discovered is explainable in biology terms.

I don't need to, watch the movie. They never said or did one thing that would even hinted at an interest in investing in science. Them learning English could just be a case of learning something out of survival, or Cameron doesn't believe a blockbuster works with long stretches of subtitles.

Your confusion about the corporation's antics is laughable. Don't use the "dying planet" as a red herring, there is no indication that the mineral was needed to save the planet. Corporations going after wealth at expense of people is their modus operandi right now in our world. If you don't know that corporations care about their public image then you are the one being naive (especially as the Researchers had already published a book about the Navi, sure to spread knowledge of them on the home planet). Tarnishing their public image with a massacre would ultimately hurt the bottom line as well, duh (it could provoke protests, boycotts, government regulation etc).

Fine, We'll pretend a certain something wasn't said and the company only went for monetary purposes, there are still plotholes there such as there initial reliance on diplomacy, their eagerness to cause war with multiple clans and their disregard for what they are going for.

The point the fillm tries to make is that there are different ways to use technology. Not that technology is inherently evil. You can listen to James Cameron explain it himself.

So a simplistic message for a simplistic film, and that message isn't even given well. Oh yeah this is sure going to be the next star wars.

if that was his message, than i have given Cameron to much credit. Obviously technology can go both ways. Avatar, however never makes a real effort to explain why either way is good or bad. We are just told the natives are good because they love nature and the other side is bad because they don't and the scientists are stuck in the middle.

Maybe I'm looking for to much in that. if so then Avatar is still an average movie that looks wonderful, but it won't hold up well due to this.

 

[jett]

Cry moar haters.

 

[Veidt]

What's gaf's consensus on the Titanic theme? I've had a soft spot for it for years now. :lol

 

[StuBurns]

if that was his message, than i have given Cameron to much credit. Obviously technology can go both ways. Avatar, however never makes a real effort to explain why either way is good or bad. We are just told the natives are good because they love nature and the other side is bad because they don't and the scientists are stuck in the middle.

Maybe I'm looking for to much in that. if so then Avatar is still an average movie that looks wonderful, but it won't hold up well due to this.

It's very clear why it's good and bad, humans have raped earth, to the point where they're off raping other planets, that's bad. The Na'vi live in harmony with their planet, that's good. I don't see what is so complicated about that.

 

[Solo]

1.

Spoiler

The first time Grace and Jake "fainted" did the Navi know then that they were sky people in fake bodies? Because they didn't get mad or care until later on, but it's pretty odd that the two new guys randomly faint all the time.

.

They knew. Did you miss where they frequently called the "dreamwalkers"?

Cry moar haters.

Their hate only makes my love grow stronger.

What's gaf's consensus on the Titanic theme? I've had a soft spot for it for years now. :lol

Its a fantastic theme.

 

[JGS]

But cavemen were scientific. They experimented to learn new ways to do things, whether it be fish or hunt or whatever.

Never saw that from the Navi. They seem to be perfectly content with the status quo because their god gave them everything.

Cavemen were content to. They were wiped out by people who had better technology. Cavemen did not go about looking for ways to build a better spear en masse.

If anything, Avatar was simply showing the way the cycle works. You talk to the natives, try to get on their good side, you force them to leave if they don't give up their home, you become the new civilization. It's happened for millenia.


There is no reason for a civilization to change if it's content. Na'vi werethe epitomy of a content people that used technology to the point that was necessary, not excessive. There are tribes now that still do this, so their actions are not that unusual to me.

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

If all he wanted to do was kill aliens, why bother with the avatar's? Also if he was lying to Grace's face, why didn't she call him out on it?

We know Grace set up a school to interact with the navi children, so we know that wasn't a lie and there is no evidence to believe the rest of what he says was either.

Obviously it's not a flat out lie, but the movie never establishes why the cooperation failed, and it has insinuated time and time again that the humans were at fault for it. Either way, fact of the matter remains that what matters to these people were the bottom line, not the world around them. They thought they could apply the earth's rules to this one, and that blew up in their faces.

 

[Veidt]

Cavemen were content to. They were wiped out by people who had better technology. Cavemen did not go about looking for ways to build a better spear en masse.

If anything, Avatar was simply showing the way the cycle works. You talk to the natives, try to get on their good side, you force them to leave if they don't give up their home, you become the new civilization. It's happened for millenia.


There is no reason for a civilization to change if it's content. Na'vi werethe epitomy of a content people that used technology to the point that was necessary, not excessive. There are tribes now that still do this, so their actions are not that unusual to me.

By Cavemen, I presume you mean Neanderthals? It was well known that the Neanderthals, had both better technology, were physically stronger and competent than Homosapiens.
The only reason we won, is believe it or not, our ability to look past our differences in looks and culture and breed with other "tribes". So that slowly we gained more numerous than them, around them, and finally destroyed them.

 

[tabsina]

I saw this last night in IMAX 3D.

It's very beautiful, especially the animals. I actually found the blue kittehs to be the least impressive thing in the movie, though they looked great.

The story was the same old thing.

Spoiler

I'm against you, no wait, you guys are cool, hey original team don't hurt my new friends, fine new friends let's hurt my old friends together.

Was expecting more, much more. But what can you do.

I'm unclear on some things...

1.

Spoiler

The first time Grace and Jake "fainted" did the Navi know then that they were sky people in fake bodies? Because they didn't get mad or care until later on, but it's pretty odd that the two new guys randomly faint all the time.

2.

Spoiler

Why the hell did the Na'Vi accept Jake in the first place? I know there was a sign, but the mother and everyone simply said "Oh, he's a warrior! Teach him everything about us." I don't see how this makes sense.

It was good. I'm not blown away or obsessed like I was with District 9, but I can see what the hypes about. The soundtrack was extremely underwhelming and just lazy, in my most honest opinion. But it really proved to me that 3d isn't just a gimmick.

I don't know about your second point, but your first - yes they did, they referred to them quite a number of times as "Dream Walkers" right from the start meaning they knew exactly what they were - which makes sense, because Grace had a school and was teaching them english and so on -- they were well aware that they were avatars, and not Na'vi

edit: wow i'm late

 

[Keylime]

Anyone else love how at the end of the movie

Spoiler

Jake refers to the humans as "aliens" and sending them back to their rock or whatever? Pretty awesome...fully assimilated. Also, when he's praying to Enwa before the massive battle, he makes mention of searching Grace's memories, their home planet has no green there...basically implying that humans totally effed up Earth Wall-E style.

The second thing I mention may have been obvious for some folks, but I thought it was a very nice subtle touch.

 

[avatar299]

It's very clear why it's good and bad, humans have raped earth, to the point where they're off raping other planets, that's bad. The Na'vi live in harmony with their planet, that's good. I don't see what is so complicated about that.

What does it mean to rape earth? Only Jake, after full on betraying the mercenaries really makes this claim. Despite both species being very intelligent humans are flying through space, the navi are sleeping in trees. Anything the humans do, in the navi eyes is raping the planet.

 

[jonnybryce]

I want a 2 hour special on the behavior and lives of all the beasts in the movie now.

They knew. Did you miss where they frequently called the "dreamwalkers"?



Their hate only makes my love grow stronger.



Its a fantastic theme.

It simply surprises me that they opened up like they did.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

well since most of you have seen the movie might as well read the original scriptment amirite?

http://jesskantor.tumblr.com/post/289166329/this-is-great-the-scriptment-for-avatar

 

[StuBurns]

What does it mean to rape earth? Only Jake, after full on betraying the mercenaries really makes this claim. Despite both species being very intelligent humans are flying through space, the navi are sleeping in trees. Anything the humans do, in the navi eyes is raping the planet.

Spoiler

So you just don't trust his statement? That's your right I guess, but he makes it quite clear Earth is a mess, and the scriptment makes it very clear too (okay, it's 'cheating' because it's not directly in the movie).

If you choose to believe 'they killed their mother', 'there's no green where they come from', 'back to their dying planet' etc or not is up to you, but there is not a single thing suggesting it's a lie.

 

[JGS]

By Cavemen, I presume you mean Neanderthals? It was well known that the Neanderthals, had both better technology, were physically stronger and competent than Homosapiens.
The only reason we won, is believe it or not, our ability to look past our differences in looks and culture and breed with other "tribes". So that slowly we gained more numerous than them, around them, and finally destroyed them.

I was really just speaking in generalities, but the point kind of remains the same. I don't think Na'vi are opposed to technology/advancement provided it helps in their and the planet's survival. Their concern for Pandora is the primary difference to me between them and humans who historically shown themselves not to care as much. Bulldozers and guns do not factor into protection of the planet, especially considering the guilt trip they experience just to kill for food and self-defense:lol .

I guess my point is to ask: Would the Neanderthals have stayed around if not for their destruction by a "superior" race?

 

[Blackhead]

So having archaic "technology" defeat far far more advanced tech is a pro-technology argument. Wonderful

Err, what defeated the humans was the interfaced 'super-computer/brain' planet. But who cares, it's not about 'archaic' technology versus 'advanced tech--whatever that is supposed to mean (There is an apocryphal story about the Americans wasting time and lots of money trying to develop a pen for use in space while the russians beat them to it by just using a pencil. 'archaic' tech still works you know. What did Einstein say about the simplest solution?)

I don't need to, watch the movie. They never said or did one thing that would even hinted at an interest in investing in science. Them learning English could just be a case of learning something out of survival, or Cameron doesn't believe a blockbuster works with long stretches of subtitles.

They practiced scientific techniques, hypothesis, observation, testing etc. why do they have to get a dedicated science lab to prove that the Na'vi are pro-science. I think you are getting hung up in the popular american representations of science and technology.

Fine, We'll pretend a certain something wasn't said and the company only went for monetary purposes, there are still plotholes there such as there initial reliance on diplomacy, their eagerness to cause war with multiple clans and their disregard for what they are going for.

? How is it a plot hole to go with the safest option first before? When the English explorers first landed on America they didn't immediately extermintate the natives. The founding fathers first got natives to teach them about the land, share the food, even signed treaties before breaking them and then resorting to war :lol
Also, if you watched the film, you'll see that the corporation had no eagerness to go to war with multiple clans. They didn't expect the clans to gather and it's why they went for the preemptive strike when they realized Jake was gathering an army.

So a simplistic message for a simplistic film, and that message isn't even given well. Oh yeah this is sure going to be the next star wars.

if that was his message, than i have given Cameron to much credit. Obviously technology can go both ways. Avatar, however never makes a real effort to explain why either way is good or bad. We are just told the natives are good because they love nature and the other side is bad because they don't and the scientists are stuck in the middle.

Maybe I'm looking for to much in that. if so then Avatar is still an average movie that looks wonderful, but it won't hold up well due to this.

I agree it's a simplistic message not very well delivered. The movie will probably not hold up. But it's not the simplistic message (anti technology, anti science etc ) you claim it is. Can agree on that as well?

I'd argue the natives are good because they aren't a greedy people seeking to exterminate somebody else's home in pursuit of wealth but hey maybe's that's too much morality.

Spoiler

So you just don't trust his statement? That's your right I guess, but he makes it quite clear Earth is a mess, and the scriptment makes it very clear too (okay, it's 'cheating' because it's not directly in the movie).

If you choose to believe 'they killed their mother', 'there's no green where they come from', 'back to their dying planet' etc or not is up to you, but there is not a single thing suggesting it's a lie.

People already make those statements about our planet as it is now...

 

[tabsina]

It simply surprises me that they opened up like they did.

that ties in with your second point i believe.. they opened up to jake because he was willing to learn their ways - and since he knew nothing, they could teach him from scratch what their way of life truly was

though if you mean "why are they nice, knowing that they aren't real na'vi", it is because there was a time (referenced a few times through the movie) where grace had a school for them and knew them well enough to write a thick book about them, and obviously the relationship between humans (researchers, at least) and Na'vi was better, before the wars began - so they trusted the researchers/dreamwalkers

that is my take, anyways

 

[gdt]

 

[StuBurns]

People already make those statements about our planet as it is now...

People say there is no green on our planet? Then they are wrong. This argument of, 'oh, well maybe Jake is full of shit' is stupid. You could say that about everything everyone says in the whole film, maybe he wasn't a Marine, maybe he never had a brother, maybe they aren't even connected to the Avatars. You either accept what they tell us as fact, or question it all, it's stupid to pick and choose which parts to write off as bullshit.

What we have is a number of statements pertaining to the world being in a mess, and to back that up, we have a scriptment written by Cameron confirming it. If you want to ignore all that, cool, but I don't see the logic to that.

 

[brandonh83]

Their hate only makes my love grow stronger.

Its a fantastic theme.

Yes, and yes. Titanic's score is fucking awesome. So is that damn love song.

 

[Blackhead]

People say there is no green on our planet? Then they are wrong. This argument of, 'oh, well maybe Jake is full of shit' is stupid. You could say that about everything everyone says in the whole film, maybe he wasn't a Marine, maybe he never had a brother, maybe they aren't even connected to the Avatars. You either accept what they tell us as fact, or question it all, it's stupid to pick and choose which parts to write off as bullshit.

What we have is a number of statements pertaining to the world being in a mess, and to back that up, we have a scriptment written by Cameron confirming it. If you want to ignore all that, cool, but I don't see the logic to that.

Wait, I'm confused we are actually arguing towards the same point. I'm trying to say that Earth being in bad shape is no justification for raping another planet (not that the movie gave any indication that the mineral was to save the planet, the corp's goal seemed to be earn money)

 

[StuBurns]

Wait, I'm confused we are actually arguing towards the same point. I'm trying to say that Earth being in bad shape is no justification for raping another planet (not that the movie gave any indication that the mineral was to save the planet, the corp's goal seemed to be earn money)

I know yeah, that wasn't really directed towards you beyond the first sentence. It just went into me moaning about people ignoring elements of the film so it fits their argument. Should have made that clearer, I apologize.

 

[y2dvd]

Isn't Pandora located on a moon and not a planet?

 

[Barrett2]

Saw it last night; maybe it was my low expectations in play, but overall I thought it was quite good. Aside from a few very cliche moments of dialogue, I was happy.

I wish they have developed a more unique mythology / culture for the aliens. It felt like Pocahontas. I was half-expecting them to smoke a peace pipe in a tepee at any moment and talk about buffalo. The whole Navi culture / mythology just felt very trite.

But still, I really enjoyed it. A great movie I will never watch again.

 

[StuBurns]

Isn't Pandora located on a moon and not a planet?

Pandora is a moon.

 

[JGS]

Isn't Pandora located on a moon and not a planet?

Yes, but I call it a planet since that's how my mind references it. I have to do a minor mental switch to call it a moon and it's not worth it. I do the same thing with Endor.

 

[Nyrad]

the unobtainium-name is not the big thing for me but what i find a bit weird is that the avatar project as a whole doesn't seemed to be useful for the corporation/military.. is there any good explanation why even try this thing if you only have so little time left before the shareholders of the corp. are getting angry?

Also i maybe missed it but how long were the humans stationed at pandora before the movie started?

can anyone answer those questions please?