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[jonnybryce]

This was explicitly stated. They had never had a "warrior" dream-walker before, and they wanted to learn from him. Its not so different from Quarritch's idea, minus the malovelent intentions. While Jake was learning the Navi ways, they were learning from him.

Ah, yes. They want to kill him when he's simply a stranger, but when they find he's a stranger that's also a killing machine, they find it a good idea to teach him everything about them. It's not the most sensible thing to do.

 

[JGS]

This was my issue with the film. If they did know, then how the fuck does

Spoiler

teaching him everything about them

make any sense, seriously.

Trust.

Spoiler

This was their first warrior and they seemed to be very open with sharing their ideas. They think we are the inferior race.

Besides, Jake had a sign from the tree, from the shaman's daughter, and the shaman herself could tell that there was something special about Jake (The blood tasting perhaps?).

All indications to them was that Jake was the real deal even though Jake himself didn't know it yet.

 

[Solo]

Ah, yes. They want to kill him when he's simply a stranger, but when they find he's a stranger that's also a killing machine, they find it a good idea to teach him everything about them. It's not the most sensible thing to do.

Its a respect/curiousity thing. The Navi are powerful, majestic warriors. Obviously they find that trait desirable in others, and wanted to test humanity's/Jake's mettle.

 

[Expendable.]

shouldn't Tuesday's BO be out by now?

 

[StuBurns]

Ah, yes. They want to kill him when he's simply a stranger, but when they find he's a stranger that's also a killing machine, they find it a good idea to teach him everything about them. It's not the most sensible thing to do.

Avatars are not killing the Na'vi, they aren't enemies, they 'fell out', and they haven't been able to teach them anything because they aren't willing to learn. So when they met one who is not a scientist, but a warrior like the Na'vi are, they decide to give it a try again. I don't see why it's so strange.

 

[Solo]

shouldn't Tuesday's BO be out by now?

Im my experience its usually another few hours during the weekdays.

 

[jett]

Ah, yes. They want to kill him when he's simply a stranger, but when they find he's a stranger that's also a killing machine, they find it a good idea to teach him everything about them. It's not the most sensible thing to do.

They made it very clear that they did it to know more about their enemy.

 

[JGS]

:lol This movie must be so simple that people are trying to over complicate it! Cameron scripts or shows almost every reason something is done.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

I don't know, Solo. Benjamin Button convinced me that we're closer to realistic CG humans than other movies would have us believe.

Of course, I feel like there's very little need for CG humans most of the time. Let's not even get into the subject of CG Depp jumping over the desk in Public Enemies.

 

[zoukka]

It was the nuance in the Na'vi performances that made them real, especially in the faces. Nothing theatrical about it.

Yeah but we still live in a time when the slight movement in eyebrows and shit is considered a milestone in CGI. I mean you guys can hype it to high heavens, good for you, but for me the digital puppets are still far from actual convincing actors.

Its too bad that WETA circa 2009 didnt do the LOTR movies instead of WETA circa 2001.

Xept Gollum still hasn't been topped.

 

[Solo]

Xept Gollum still hasn't been topped.

He was topped by Davy Jones years ago, and by multiple characters in this film.

 

[StuBurns]

Xept Gollum still hasn't been topped.

How's bizarro world?

Spoiler

EDIT: Damn, typo spoiled that.

 

[FirewalkR]

Yeah, just got back from a packed IMAX showing from bumblefuck, JP.

Thought the movie was total popcorn fun. Totally worth the 20 bucks!


Yup, 20.

My guess is that it's gonna have a LOT of repeat business around those parts. It's like an otaku's wet-dream.

 

[Dabookerman]

I don't know, Solo. Benjamin Button convinced me that we're closer to realistic CG humans than other movies would have us believe.

Of course, I feel like there's very little need for CG humans most of the time. Let's not even get into the subject of CG Depp jumping over the desk in Public Enemies.

Was that REALLY CG?

And regarding Button, that was more like a mask, literally, than a fully fledged cg character.

 

[jett]

Xept Gollum still hasn't been topped.

you really have some fucking strange opinions

 

[GhaleonEB]

Yeah but we still live in a time when the slight movement in eyebrows and shit is considered a milestone in CGI. I mean you guys can hype it to high heavens, good for you, but for me the digital puppets are still far from actual convincing actors.

I - and a lot of others - obviously disagree. Opinions and all that.

I found the Na'vi performances 100% convincing.

Xept Gollum still hasn't been topped.

There are matters of opinion, and matters of fact...

 

[zoukka]

How's bizarro world?

The rabbits are tasty!

(I didn't mean the models details or any SFX btw suckas)

 

[Solo]

I mean you guys can hype it to high heavens, good for you, but for me the digital puppets are still far from actual convincing actors.

Neytiri is a performance from an actor, not a "digital puppet"

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

The rabbits are tasty!

(I didn't mean the models details or any SFX btw suckas)

Neytiri's performance is more convincing.

 

[Lord Error]

He was a damn great character, that's for sure, but in retrospect that was more because of the acting and voicing than the rendering quality.

 

[Memphis Reigns]

I am going to add my two cents. Personally, the moment i saw Brad Pitt as a little old man it screamed CGI to me. I thought it looked pretty tacky, but not terrible by any means. I don't consider that near the realism that Cameron captured with AVATAR.

And Gollum...really? REALLY? To me he looks like he could be a character out of a Zemeckis movie, way too cartoony. And whats funny is that everyone thought the Na'vi looked cartoony but they ended up looking very realistic.

 

[zoukka]

He was a damn great character, that's for sure, but in retrospect that was more because of the acting and voicing than the rendering quality.

Well that's what I said. The same tech is in place with Neytiri no?

 

[jett]

Well that's what I said. The same tech is in place with Neytiri no?

Nope, it's quite different.

 

[skyfinch]

Wouldn't it have been cool if they ended the movie with Neytiri jumping into one of those robot suits then saying, "get away from her, you bitch!" Then the camera zooms into Jake's face as he smiles......fade out......AVATAR logo fades in.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

People said Cameron wouldn't get close look how that turned out.

Well, technically he didn't. The whole uncanny valley issue was sidestepped due to the sufficient alienness of the Navi. Yes, the facial expressions are much more convincing and make them feel more like real characters as opposed to CG models running around, but overall the Navi aren't really applicable in the realistic humans argument seeing as how they're not human.

 

[zoukka]

Nope, it's quite different.

Oh. Sucks that the old one was better

 

[WyndhamPrice]

Talking about Gollum reminds me that The Hobbit movies are being made which reminds me that we're going to see Gollum again, and he's going to be amazing with Weta's new tech.

 

[Solo]

Talking about Gollum reminds me that The Hobbit movies are being made which reminds me that we're going to see Gollum again, and he's going to be amazing with Weta's new tech.

Indeed. Gollum 2011 is going to destroy Gollum 2001. I know its obvious given that technology always improves, but these past 3-4 years ESPECIALLY have seen ridiculously massive gains in the field of CG.

I really feel that the LOTR movies ended up coming about 3 years too early, effects-wise.

 

[jett]

Oh. Sucks that the old one was better

You're quite nuts.

 

[StuBurns]

Talking about Gollum reminds me that The Hobbit movies are being made which reminds me that we're going to see Gollum again, and he's going to be amazing with Weta's new tech.

It's not Weta's new tech, it's Cameron's. Unless you mean the CG.

 

[Solo]

It's not Weta's new tech, it's Cameron's. Unless you mean the CG.

I believe he does. The way the mo-capped Saldana and Worthington and brought that all the way up from green screen to fully rendered Navi was WETA's stuff, no? Cameron's end of things is the cameras.

 

[StuBurns]

I believe he does. The way the mo-capped Saldana and Worthington and brought that all the way up from green screen to fully rendered Navi was WETA's stuff, no? Cameron's end of things is the cameras.

I believe it's the cameras and performance capture tech. I heard in an interview Cameron talking about the mo cap stuff, saying he told Weta, ILM etc how he wanted to do it, and they all said no. I could be mistaken though.

 

[Solo]

If thats true, Cameron's about to get extremely rich (even moreso than he already is).

 

[XiaNaphryz]

I believe it's the cameras and performance capture tech. I heard in an interview Cameron talking about the mo cap stuff, saying he told Weta, ILM etc how he wanted to do it, and they all said no. I could be mistaken though.

You act as if Weta and our mocap setups are laying dormant. :lol That initial conversation w/ Cameron happened years ago.

Don't worry, both companies' R&D groups have been moving along this whole time in terms of mocap tech and stereoscopic setups, let alone other areas.

 

[Solo]

You act as if Weta and our mocap setups are laying dormant. :lol

Its not that, but more of a case of first out of the gate gets the prize. Yes, WETA and ILM have been doing mo-cap since before Cameron even started dicking around with it. But he is the first one to bring it to this level.

 

[Keylime]

At no part in LOTR do you forget that Gollum isn't real. He's always obviously CG. This may be because he's more of a creature versus a humanoid, but you never lose the CG itch.

At no part in Zemeckis' pictures do you forget you're looking at CG.

In Avatar there are times that you do forget that you aren't looking at CG, and there are times where you don't.

Avatar represents Hollywood's ability to climb out of the uncanny valley. We're not 100% of the way there yet, but we're fucking close.

 

[GCX]

I really feel that the LOTR movies ended up coming about 3 years too early, effects-wise.

LOTR looks fine the way it is since the amount of CGI is actually quite low. The trilogy is more of a showcase of WETA Workshop's talent because there's such a ridiculous amount of beautiful and impressive sets, miniatures, bigatures, clothing, etc.

CGI stuff is starting look a bit dated but most of the time LOTR still looks really good.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Its not that, but more of a case of first out of the gate gets the prize. Yes, WETA and ILM have been doing mo-cap since before Cameron even started dicking around with it. But he is the first one to bring it to this level.

And I'm saying the tech's not going to stay at just that level for long, and won't necessarily be exclusive to Cameron's development house which seems to be implied here.

Avatar represents Hollywood's ability to climb out of the uncanny valley.

Am I the only one starting to get annoyed at the constant misuse of this term?

 

[Dabookerman]

Well that's what I said. The same tech is in place with Neytiri no?

The tech for Avatar is an evolution of what was used with Gollum.

It goes like this, sorta.. Gollum --> King Kong --> Davy Jones --> Neytiri.

They have all been improved on a technical level, and this is coming from a hardcore LOTR fan. On a technical level, Neytiri is loads better than Gollum. Of course, whatever you think about the character is purely subjective. I personally don't think Gollum "sucks" though. I could easily pick holes in Jurassic Park if we're going to go there. Hell, if I look hard enough there will be holes to pick in Avatar, because no CG is perfect, they can only be the best they can possibly be within the timeframe.

For me, as long as CG is used well, meaning I'm not thinking about it, even if it is noticeable nowadays, then that's good CG. Gollum was treated very well in the sense that he didn't scream HEY IM CG WOO etc.

 

[Solo]

LOTR looks fine the way it is since the actual amount of CGI is actually quite low. The trilogy is more of a showcase of WETA Workshop's talent because there's such a ridiculous amount of beautiful and impressive sets, miniatures, bigatures, clothing, etc.

CGI stuff is starting look a bit dated but most of the time LOTR still looks really good.

The sets and miniatures still look great, but the CG is not aging well at all (the compositing in a lot of shots is really bad), and a lot of the visual tricks they used are painfully obvious (forced perspective, using little people, etc.).

 

[zoukka]

LOTR looks fine the way it is since the actual amount of CGI is actually quite low. The trilogy is more of a showcase of WETA Workshop's talent because there's such a ridiculous amount of beautiful and impressive sets, miniatures, bigatures, clothing, etc.

CGI stuff is starting look a bit dated but most of the time LOTR still looks really good.

This is a big part why I think the LotR movies look so much better than Avatar. Even though the CGI is impressive in Avatar, it still has that really artificial feel to me. I wish I could've seen it like the rest of you who praise everything about it.

And it's weird that you guys think these CGI performances are going in a straight line towards realism with the new tech. You still need the exceptional talent from the makers and actors who know what they are doing to create even remotely convincing roles. I remember noticing this after The Two Towers when the movies preceding it looked like shit in terms of CGI characters. In fact Avatar might be the first movie that holds some candle to it and Gollum.

And lol at anyone mentioning Benjamin Button. Shows how much exposure to this kind of material has to do with the impressiveness of it all.

a lot of the visual tricks they used are painfully obvious (forced perspective, using little people, etc.).

This makes me sad. My mind was blown when I realised what they went through in those movies just to avoid using CGI. Sad I tell you.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

I remember noticing this after The Two Towers when the movies preceding it looked like shit in terms of CGI characters. In fact Avatar might be the first movie that holds some candle to it and Gollum.

There aren't enough facepalms in the world...

 

[Dabookerman]

I don't get why people keep mentioning Benjamin Button. Button is quite literally CG make-up. Button is more of an achievement in rendering, shading and getting a CG human face to look as good as it can be. Performance wise, they just used Hi res photography to capture Brad Pitt's performance 100%

 

[Keylime]

Am I the only one starting to get annoyed at the constant misuse of this term?

Are we only allowed to use that when talking about robots or what?

Everyone knows what you mean when you say "uncanny valley" in regards to CG, damnit!

 

[Solo]

This makes me sad. My mind was blown when I realised what they went through in those movies just to avoid using CGI. Sad I tell you.

Im 95% sure Jackson used these tricks for budgetary reasons (these movies were fairly tightly budgeted; well, the first one anyways - after it became a hit, a lot more dough was thrown into post on the next two). They arent convincing, and werent back in 2001 either. When Frodo and Gandalf are sitting at Bilbo's table, its quite obviously that McKellen is close to the camera while Wood is not. Ill give them props for making their line of sight match up for the most part, but its still a parlour trick at the end of the day.

 

[Dabookerman]

Im 95% sure Jackson used these tricks for budgetary reasons. They arent convincing, and werent back in 2001 either. When Frodo and Gandalf are sitting at Bilbo's table, its quite obviously that McKellen is close to the camera while Wood is not. Ill give them props for making their line of sight match up for the most part, but its still a parlour trick at the end of the day.

It's something I never noticed unless I look for it. And that's what a lot of the effects were like in LOTR. Now though, since I've seen each movie, and I shit you not, about 50+ times, I can point out every flaw there is. But the point is, every movie has flaws. My only major beef with LOTR isn't the CG, but the compositing, and to me, that's a bigger crime than slightly less than convincing CG.

 

[mrkgoo]

At no part in LOTR do you forget that Gollum isn't real. He's always obviously CG. This may be because he's more of a creature versus a humanoid, but you never lose the CG itch.

At no part in Zemeckis' pictures do you forget you're looking at CG.

In Avatar there are times that you do forget that you aren't looking at CG, and there are times where you don't.

Avatar represents Hollywood's ability to climb out of the uncanny valley. We're not 100% of the way there yet, but we're fucking close.

That's easy to say, but it's difficult to qualify.

For me, I thought Gollum was convincing, but perhaps I need to see it again. Possibly the chinks in the armour show up in HD. Gollum was every much a humanoid as the Na'vi. Also, you can say you forget it's CGI in Avatar, but I thought it was CGI the whole time. Mostly because you know it's not real, but still.

 

[J2 Cool]

The sets and miniatures still look great, but the CG is not aging well at all (the compositing in a lot of shots is really bad), and a lot of the visual tricks they used are painfully obvious (forced perspective, using little people, etc.).

Always has. King Kong as well has this awful compositing (as the boats approach the island). I have no idea why Weta did that. Also, the visual tricks always looked odd to me, but I just came to accept them for their charm.

I still think Gollum looks good though, and his performance isn't going to age.

 

[Solo]

That's easy to say, but it's difficult to qualify.

For me, I thought Gollum was convincing, but perhaps I need to see it again.

Its obvious how much of a work in progress he was. His 5 seconds of time in FOTR look incredibly poor. He was much better in TTT, and better still in ROTK.

 

[J2 Cool]

Its obvious how much of a work in progress he was. His 5 seconds of time in FOTR look incredibly poor. He was much better in TTT, and better still in ROTK.

Oh yeah, his FOTR scene was just placeholder and certainly looks it.