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Rottenwatch: AVATAR (82%)

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Probably the best article I've ever read about a director:
Man of Extremes - The Return of James Cameron.
Cameron reserves a special quotient of his anger for suits who get in his way. “Tell your friend he’s getting fucked in the ass, and if he would stop squirming it wouldn’t hurt so much” was the message he once told a Fox producer to deliver to an executive at the studio. He sees himself as essentially outside and other and alone; he bites the hand that feeds. “Even though he knew I was on his side, nobody’s ever on his side,” Bill Mechanic, who ran Fox Studios during the making of “Titanic,” said. “It’s like you’re in the trenches and your infantry-mate is shooting at you, even if you’re the only one there who can save his life.”
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“That’s a damn good question,” Cameron said. “We’ve already established the idea that when the suit is grabbed it looks like it’s in agony.” Cameron put on a nasal, whiny voice—his rendition of a fixated fanboy. “ ‘How come the suit didn’t move the right way? The fourteenth time I saw the film, in my basement, I really questioned the editorial integrity of it.’ ” He laughed, and then grew suddenly serious, as if aware that he had just said something jinxy: he should be so fortunate.
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Fox, worried that it had a runaway production on its hands, sent a veteran producer to the set. He arrived in a rented Cadillac, wearing a suit, to tell Cameron and Hurd that they had to scale back the shooting schedule and the budget. It didn’t go well. “There are two things about Jim,” Mikael Salomon, the cinematographer on “The Abyss,” told me. “You shouldn’t call him Jimmy, and you shouldn’t touch him if you don’t know him very well. He did both."
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Schwarzenegger says that, reading the script, he considered everything that the terminator would have to do: repress all emotion, shoot without blinking, speak like a recording from a Dictaphone. Over lunch with Cameron, he said how excited he was to play Reese, but also shared his ideas for the cyborg. At the end of the meal, Schwarzenegger picked up the check. Cameron, who was sharing an apartment in Tarzana with Wisher, and driving a beat-up two-door Chevrolet, had no money.
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A nice comment from Peter Jackson
Cameron thinks of the effects—along with the rest of the technology (camera systems, for example)—as supporting the storytelling, not the other way around. Here’s what Peter Jackson had to say about that, when I asked him over e-mail how Cameron has influenced film: “His contribution, and what is truly inspiring to other film makers, is that he never allows the technology to overwhelm his story and characters. The big budget action, fantasy, sci-fi genre has become stigmatised as loud dumb films with nothing to say—just look at the big budget movies of this last summer—but that’s never the case with Jim’s movies. He cares about his story and characters, and crafts his scripts brilliantly well.”
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border said:
Why does this always get brought up? Yeah, a 70 year old movie would not do very well in today's box office....times and taste change. Avatar wouldn't do that well if it was released in 2080 either.
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It shows that the comparison is pointless. Just as the situations for movies as a medium change as well. When GWTW was out, the potential audience was not coming in with the expectation that they could see it at home in four to five months... as well as considerations relating to alternative forms of entertainment.
 
Brandon Gray is doing some pretty off-the-napkin calculations there for someone whose job it is to track the box office, Avatar's more likely around $62 million tickets sold. Either way, it's going to end up with more than TDK and be the biggest ticket seller of the decade.
 
Sharp said:
Brandon Gray is doing some pretty off-the-napkin calculations there for someone whose job it is to track the box office, Avatar's more likely around $62 million tickets sold. Either way, it's going to end up with more than TDK and be the biggest ticket seller of the decade.
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Brandon Gray is an idiot. Always has been. Read the "reviews" he puts up for comedic gold.
 
Solo said:
Brandon Gray is an idiot. Always has been. Read the "reviews" he puts up for comedic gold.
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My main problem with him (well, other than the fact that he refuses to spend much time or effort on the "adjusted gross" part of his website, which literally thousands of news sources source for their articles) is that he allows his personal biases towards movies to affect his box office analysis. When a movie he didn't like does well he'll ay it was because it was mediocre, and when one he likes does badly he'll say that it should have good WOM and great legs in the future. His site does provide a valuable service, though.
 
Solo said:
Brandon Gray is an idiot. Always has been. Read the "reviews" he puts up for comedic gold.
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Aww, very cute. Ad hominem card, eh?

Only a fool would try to read reviews on a box office site. :P
 
Sharp said:
Brandon Gray is doing some pretty off-the-napkin calculations there for someone whose job it is to track the box office, Avatar's more likely around $62 million tickets sold. Either way, it's going to end up with more than TDK and be the biggest ticket seller of the decade.
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that guy is sure going out of his way to denounce the record....
 
jmdajr said:
that guy is sure going out of his way to denounce the record....
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The thing is that a ton of newspapers, whether they admit it or not, use BOM as a source for ticket sales / inflation data / box office data in general. I suspect he's been getting a done of emails and calls asking about Avatar's admissions numbers, so I can understand why he put so much emphasis on it in the article. Which makes it all the more disappointing that he's not even willing to put in a minimal amount of effort to doing things like detangling IMAX, 3D and 2D prices from the average ticket price and then applying the surcharge--it just reeks of laziness, especially since he has access to WAY more data than we do. For example, the average ticket price in the fourth quarter is mentioned in that article; we never got that breakdown anywhere until now. It's just frustrating to me that someone with so much quality data doesn't seem to care about analyzing it. Shit, there are some people doing great work on the BOM forums figuring out how many admissions GWTW really got, and he pretty much told them that since he clearly stated that the numbers were "estimates" he was not going to update his method in any way.
 
GhaleonEB said:
I kind of wish Mojo had been around in 1998, when Titanic crossed $600m. I don't recall there being any discussion of ticket price inflation as a constant caveat to the box office. Brandon's article archives start a few months too late. Guru (a site I've read since 1997 for analysis) wrote this article when Titanic crossed $600m, with nary a mention of ticket prices.
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Sure there was. Both in the USA Today, Variety and (i believe) an AP article. They all did articles on the topic around the time Titanic was reaching the all-time record. It just wasn't infused with the divisive opinion you get in today's media.

JOHN HORN AP Entertainment Writer
AP Online
03-03-1998
LOS ANGELES (AP) _ Within the next two weeks, ``Titanic'' is set to become the highest-grossing film of all time. Adjusted for inflation, however, the film still trails ``Gone With the Wind'' by a wide distance, finishing a distant 23rd.

With a total domestic gross of $427 million, ``Titanic'' is only $34 million behind ``Star Wars'' for the top spot on the all-time charts, not adjusted for inflation. Counting admissions and adjusting for inflation, 1939's ``Gone With the Wind'' would have sold $1.29 billion in tickets at current prices, according to calculations made Monday by Variety, the trade newspaper.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-19798792.html
 
jett said:
Scullibundo was banned for backseat modding in the latest Israel-related thread.
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Actually ma'jett, I requested a ban as I have my final essay due today (and kind of wish the ban lasted an extra few hours considering how far I have to go). :lol
 
I finally got around to see this and wow, I really loved this movie! I can't stop thinking about the amazing world and everything that was created for this. I can't stop gushing about it.

I wish instead of a sequel, they do like a "Planet Earth" kinda "documentary" about Pandora. That'd be awesome.
 
effingvic said:
I finally got around to see this and wow, I really loved this movie! I can't stop thinking about the amazing world and everything that was created for this. I can't stop gushing about it.

I wish instead of a sequel, they do like a "Planet Earth" kinda "documentary" about Pandora. That'd be awesome.
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i like that idea
 
Solo said:
Only a fool would discuss box office on a gaming forum. Oh, wait...
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Yes only a fool would do that and an blind person would think this thread is in the gaming forum:

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:P

Going to boxofficemojo for reviews is like asking Patcher to review games.

Solo, you were nice. Please return back.
 
Scullibundo said:
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My ban was self-requested for anybody wondering. Last essay ever! Due in 2 hours in fact and still a few hundred words to go.
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hum I thought you were banned because in one thread you said" ban this motherfu***"
 
racerx said:
This may be old...


MTV News interviews James Cameron, Zoe Saldana, and Sam Worthington

Parts 1 through 6

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwp0BAXGFyM&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAbOYph9Lu8&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35GiJvqdW0M&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G96tlB8FSaM&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Wav0u5X0zU&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nusm8QWXLgM&feature=channel
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:lol @ Cameron in the first video "I don't think it's realistic to try to topple titanic off its pirtch, theres been a lot of great films in the last few years, obviously we are hoping Avatar is successful at some level" :lol

Got to love the chemistry between the 3 of them. You can tell how much they all got along with each other and it showed in the final product.
 
A change from the usual box office talk.

A prett big feature on the Worldbuilding of Pandora featuring the artists who worked on the film went online yesterday:

27 Avatar Questions, Answered By The Movie's Designers

What were some of these creatures?[cut from the film]

According to Tully Summers, there was a fishing scene between Jake and Neytiri, featuring alien fish, that got cut. Also, a "tribal initiation" sequence where Jake is stung by a nasty insect on purpose — but you can see that insect crawling in the foreground in one shot. There was also a sequence where "sting bats" attack the human compound — and you can see some sting bats flying in formation next to one of the Samson helicopters. (The "sting bats" started out swan-like, but Weta made them more fearsome and batlike.) Summers also worked on the Sturmbeest, a kind of bison-like creature that didn't make the cut.
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Some people have suggested that Pandora is a post-singularity world, because the worldmind is like a giant computer that everyone plugs into. Was this something anyone discussed during production?

The fact that the planet is a big brain and has synapses that can talk to everyone is "an important part of thinking about the planet," says Stromberg. "We always approach the world as essentially a big brain," he adds. "That was always there." But the singularity theory is just one possible explanation, he believes. You could see it as "the next stage of evolution," or fit it into various religious frameworks. But the intent was to "create something that gave us all hope, really, and gave us all a sense, or at least a metaphor for being one and protecting each other, and what we stand on."
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It seems like the ISV VentureStar, the ship Jake arrives on, cannot travel faster than light. So how does it travel?

According to Ben Procter, James Cameron wrote a ten-page document addressing this very question, "which became my bible as I led a team of talented 3D designers (Tex Kadonaga, Joe Hiura, and Rob Johnson) in the development of the exterior design." The document includes sketches, as well as entire section on the ship's propulsion technology, which uses matter/antimatter reaction, complete with speed and trip duration calculations. There's also "a wealth of information on the ship's components and their relative layout."
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Just how complex is the Na'Vi religion?

Leri Greer at Weta Workshop spent a lot of time thinking about the complexities of Na'Vi religion in the process of devising a lot of tribal artifacts. Greer, John Harding and production designer Rick Carter, decided that there was a kind of "natural math" in some of the lines on the Na'Vi designs, like the lines radiating outwards across a spiral shape, in when you look at a pinecone from below. The Weta crew decided there were variations in the way each Na'Vi tribe worshipped Eywa, and very different family structures. This was all part of a huge "Pandora-pedia" that Weta workshop created internally, which they ran past the production office.
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more at the link

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The Genesis Of Avatar, And Avoiding The "Plastic Toy Frog" Look

There were the four of us, sitting around Jim's house trying to wrap our heads around what these creatures should look like, trying different ideas, pushing it too far and then pulling it back — we went down a lot of roads to explore what the essence of these creatures should be. It was an extremely creative and intense time — all of us trying to reason out how the biomechanics of six-legged creatures would function, whether they would be fleshy or hard surfaced. [There were] hundreds of questions to answer. I always had several books on animal anatomy, biology and vertebrate morphology around. We looked at insects, microscopic bugs, deep sea creatures, all in an effort to mold the form language the flora and fauna of Pandora would take, always with Jim guiding us, designing with us. Little by little we emerged with an understanding of what these creatures were. There wasn't much thought given to what the movie would become, as a totality — we were far too busy learning about the world we were building as we were building it. We progressed from sketches to more refinements as sketches became paintings, and those paintings became sculptures or computer models that we created.
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The Landscape Takes Shape

Avatar actually had two production desiginers: Stromberg worked on the "organic Pandora side," designing everything from the the way the planet looked from space, all the way down to every twig in the forest. And Rick Carter took on the military and human-made aspects, including all of the hardware at the base at Hell's Gate. It's somewhat unusual to have two production designers on a film, but this meant Stromberg could be in L.A. working with the team of designers there, while Carter was in New Zealand building sets and dealing with the actual film shoot. "I think it helps in this particular movie to have two designers with two different opinions coming together," says Stromberg."
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Creating Actual Na'Vi Props And Silly Corporate Logos

Weta Digital was creating the 3-D animations of the creatures of Pandora, but meanwhile Weta Workshop was actually building bows and arrows and tons of other Na'Vi physical props. According to Leri Greer at Weta, he and his coworkers created tons of these physical items, first as prototypes for Cameron to sign off on, but also then as props for the movie. There were Na'Vi items, captured as trophies or taken for study, at the humans' base, but also the actors had to rehearse and train in a jungle setting using real bows and arrows and other tools. And when the animated version of Neytiri is pulling back a bowstring in the movie, Zoe Saldana had to be holding a physical bow in her hand so the motion-capture could look right.
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Oh shit...I just checked to see if tickets are available for IMAX this weekend and noticed that Feb 10 is the last day it will be showing in my IMAX. I thought it was going to be at IMAX until March.
 
So I just saw Avatar.


The first half of the movie I was really questioning why on earth this movie is so hyped by gaf and is such a phenomena. The second half however it became very interesting and I thoroughly enjoyed it overall.

Some thoughts...

- The animals were all plasticy and CGI in the trailer, but seeing them on a giant screen I "believed" them. Very impressive designs. The animals actually were my favorite part of the movie.

- The world as a whole is also very very beautiful, what with the fluorescent lighting and such. It's as if Cameron went: "Hmmm, what style and designs would have the biggest impact on the eyes of the viewer in the theater..." and he went with a psychedelic flashy nature world. Normally this would have ended in a catastrophically horrible art style (including the designs of the Na'vi), but the production values are so high that it turned out great. The amount of detail on everything is so big that it overcomes the ridiculous and not-so-believable art style.

- My god this movie is full of clichés and corny lines. I rolled my eyes and burst out in laughter quite a few times. Every characters is basically a walking stereotype with matching catch phrases. Especially the army general and Michelle Rodriquez's character are just too much for me to enjoy.

- You know how the story is going to end after 5 minutes (even if you hadn't heard the "Pocahontas" or "Dances with wolves" analogy). But it didn't really hurt the movie imo. The biggest surprise was that near the end of the movie
there basically is a killing spree on most of the main characters. I didn't expect that. But every death can be justified to the viewer: she got much more than just a sample, she basically knew herself this ordeal would end in martyrdom, he had to die so the 2 main Na'vi could be a couple without it being against the rules of the tribe, who gives a shit about the dad Na'vi anyway, ...

- Still not a fan of 3D. My main gripe is that it just all becomes so goddamn dark. Without the glasses the movie had such vibrant colors, but all of that is lost to gain some tacky 3D effect that is still not optimized imo. Some things remain hazy, sometimes it gives you the experience that the frame rate drops to about 10 frames per second and that everything moves choppy, ... Had the some problem with Coraline, and probably will with every movie since this basically is "the 3D experience" they'll be using for years to come. I'm quite sad at the idea that more films will become 3D only. Off topic: will Alice in Wonderland have a 2D release?



Overall this movie is -despite its budget- a very safe bet: the story is nothing extra ordinary and very predictable, the characters are one dimensional so the viewer doesn't have to think to much, the lines are corny, and it seems to use the same formula as Titanic to attract both the scifi movie nerds and the romantic girls. The rest comes along to see what all the fuzz is about. But I did thoroughly enjoy the movie, as I was vigorously cheering for the Na'vi to kick that shitty army guy's ass (which is probably thanks to the characters being walking stereotypes) and to keep the damage in their world to a minimum. The message is obvious but it resonated with me so that probably helped a great deal in me appreciating the movie too. I'm still a bit baffled by the amount of success this movie has, but if a blockbuster has to shatter all records, I'm glad it's Avatar and not some mindless trash like Transformers.
 
Yeah, for all the hubub about the 3D it really doesn't seem any better or worse than the 3D movies that have already been released. I don't care that much for the technology, as it still pretty much makes everything look like a pop-up book.

While Avatar doesn't have any "Boo!" moments where shit pops out of the screen, it seems literally filled with shots designed to point out the 3D. There's always a bunch of shit floating in your face (dust, ash, a beam of light, whatever) because without a bunch of junk in the foreground then medium distance shots don't look 3D at all. They have to put crap in your face for that because you need some frame of reference for stuff that is supposed to be further away. I can comprehend why it's done, but through the whole film you find yourself asking why a bunch of particles are always floating directly in front of the camera.
 
I saw this last weekend, and ... Honestly.. It REALLY felt like a movie adaption to some sort of unreleased videogame. The 3D Effects were nice, but I was really annoyed by how stereotypical so many things were. It felt like Cameron was reusing his own typical stereotypes. The tough latino chick, the marines, bla bla bla.

The navi people looked incredibly fake. The entire movie felt like an entire videogame cgi segment at some points, with so many 'look at this, we blew up the budget on that scene, so you better enjoy it you bastard' moments. I dont think I'll ever watch this movie again. The story was just so lame. the 3D effects was fun but that's it. What an awesome marketing job this entire thing was.
 
border said:
Yeah, for all the hubub about the 3D it really doesn't seem any better or worse than the 3D movies that have already been released. I don't care that much for the technology, as it still pretty much makes everything look like a pop-up book.

While Avatar doesn't have any "Boo!" moments where shit pops out of the screen, it seems literally filled with shots designed to point out the 3D. There's always a bunch of shit floating in your face (dust, ash, a beam of light, whatever) because without a bunch of junk in the foreground then medium distance shots don't look 3D at all. They have to put crap in your face for that because you need some frame of reference for stuff that is supposed to be further away. I can comprehend why it's done, but through the whole film you find yourself asking why a bunch of particles are always floating directly in front of the camera.
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This attitude is not dissimilar to looking at animation... and focusing on the lines, and the shading, and complaining that this looks like a drawn image.

Response: Yeah, but there's a moving picture that works seamlessly together when all those elements go together correctly. That's what you should be focusing on... unless you're actually studying the nature of the 3D compositing itself.
 
Took the GF to see it last night. Second time for me, first for her.

I enjoyed it more the second time because I could simply appreciate what it does well (the world/visuals) rather than judging it and seeing how it stacked up to my (very low) expectations.

It's just unfortunate that the script is so, so, so bad. I mean, it could totally be a "classic" if it didn't make me burst our laughing every other line...why spend so much time/money making something with such little substance?

I also still can't believe it's PG-13. Most of the action is fucking brutal.
 
I didn't know that Weta worked on Avatar! I knew very little about it going in (and still do)... and even though I didn't like the film and had big issues with it, I think I'll definitely be buying the blu-ray release(s) if only for the inevitable extensive making-of features, which I always enjoy watching. The making-of LotR on the EE releases were truly mindblowing and hopefully Avatar's will be on the same level.
 
What amazes me is the staggering amount of shit Cameron did with regards to Avatar. He basically created something along the lines of the Star Wars EU while inventing new technologies, revolutionizing film making, and being basically involved in every aspect of a movie which has shattered box office records and captivated audiences worldwide.

The man is a true visionary, outdoing himself, making the stuff he did for titanic look miniscule by comparison (I'm speaking solely on the work here, not the box office performances)
 
GaimeGuy said:
What amazes me is the staggering amount of shit Cameron did with regards to Avatar. He basically created something along the lines of the Star Wars EU while inventing new technologies, revolutionizing film making, and being basically involved in every aspect of a movie which has shattered box office records and captivated audiences worldwide.

The man is a true visionary, outdoing himself, making the stuff he did for titanic look miniscule by comparison (I'm speaking solely on the work here, not the box office performances)
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Yeah. I really think that Cameron's genius for melding technology and film making is one of a kind - and that he's so consistently pushed the envelope, and here taking it from visual effects to a whole new way of making films. And on top of it, he's also a great filmmaker. The achievement here is just breathtaking in its scope.

The Cinefex article really cemented for me how huge an accomplishment Avatar was. Even all the behind the scenes videos and interviews really just scratch the surface of what Cameron was doing with the technology, and how it changed the filming and editing process.
 
shuri said:
What an awesome marketing job this entire thing was.
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If it were strictly a success of marketing it would have popped a big number the first few weeks and dissolved away. Unparalled word-of-mouth is what is carrying this movie.
 
ToxicAdam said:
If it were strictly a success of marketing it would have popped a big number the first few weeks and dissolved away. Unparalled word-of-mouth is what is carrying this movie.
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Yep.

Marketing gets you a big weekend, WOM gets you the legs.
 
The problem with this 3D thing though is that the shitty dragon movie and that awesome Alice remake are also major 3D releases, so the theaters are going to have to make some decisions since they are releasing fairly close together.

And then Clash of the Titans comes in 3D a month later. Followed by Harry Potter a few months later.
 
Thank you Dead. For the awesomesauce that you have provided. You have made my afternoon at work on a Friday go by faster than four cups of after lunch coffee could provide.
 
Zaptruder said:
This attitude is not dissimilar to looking at animation... and focusing on the lines, and the shading, and complaining that this looks like a drawn image.

Response: Yeah, but there's a moving picture that works seamlessly together when all those elements go together correctly. That's what you should be focusing on... unless you're actually studying the nature of the 3D compositing itself.
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Except that the 3D doesn't blend seamlessly together in the same way a series of sequential images does. It perpetually looks like some weird diorama, only occasionally approximating our actual sense of depth (usually in very long, deep shots).

The constant "particles in front of the camera" thing is mostly distracting because it's something that would be removed from any other film but is used to a great extent in Avatar.
 
With Cameron's enthusiasm and expertise in underwater filming, I'm half-inclined to believe that a lot of Pandora was inspired by the deep ocean environments, what with the bioluminescence and all.
 
GhaleonEB said:
The Cinefex article really cemented for me how huge an accomplishment Avatar was. Even all the behind the scenes videos and interviews really just scratch the surface of what Cameron was doing with the technology, and how it changed the filming and editing process.
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Do you have the link to the article? I'm intrigued.

FirewalkR said:
Something that strikes me in that designer Q&A is that the interviewer just throws the term Singularity and they knew that it meant this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity
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Not very striking, the term has been popularized by Ray Kurzweil. Heck if you search for "singularity" on youtube that's the first thing you get. No doubt Cameron and his crew are familiar with it. GAF a discussion about it too http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=384773
 
Just realized, and not sure if this has already been pointed out.

T2: Miles Dyson
Avatar: Miles Quaritch

Is one of Cameron's kids named Miles? Odd, and cool cause it's my middle name as well.
 
Naked Snake said:
Do you have the link to the article? I'm intrigued.
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It's not online that I'm aware of. I posted a few summaries and excerpts in the thread a few weeks back, but without Search enabled I can't chase them down. The entire article is over 80 pages long and is a thorough review of the development and implementation of the tech used in Avatar. The camera, performance capture, animation, editing and world-building technologies are described from end-end, with the development woven parallel to a walk through of the movie, describing the challenges each sequence presented and how the technology was developed to overcome them. It reads more like a short book than a long article.

This is the issue, but I'm not aware of any excerpts online anywhere. It's a fantastic read if you're interested in the technical and process side of Avatar. You could probably find it at a Borders or B&N and skim through.
 
GhaleonEB said:
It's not online that I'm aware of. I posted a few summaries and excerpts in the thread a few weeks back, but without Search enabled I can't chase them down. The entire article is over 80 pages long and is a thorough review of the development and implementation of the tech used in Avatar. The camera, performance capture, animation, editing and world-building technologies are described from end-end, with the development woven parallel to a walk through of the movie, describing the challenges each sequence presented and how the technology was developed to overcome them. It reads more like a short book than a long article.

This is the issue, but I'm not aware of any experts online anywhere. It's a fantastic read if you're interested in the technical and process side of Avatar. You could probably find it at a Borders or B&N and skim through.
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Oh wow, that sounds quite extensive. Don't live in the US so no Borders or B&N. I guess I'll wait for the blu-ray special edition or something to feast on the production details. I always deeply admired Cameron's technical mastery, even seeing what he did with the extremely low budget of the original Terminator blew my mind.
 
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