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Rugby World Cup 2015 |OT|

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Moobabe

Member
I wouldn't read too much into that, it was pouring with rain - I'd have done the same.

Interesting that the Sydney Morning Herald also questioning that decision though:

He sprinted off because he knew he fucked up. While Foley was teeing up that kick he was WATCHING THE FUCKING BIG SCREEN.

Yes Scotland should have executed the lineout - but Joubert's decision has cost Scotland the game, and he wasn't even man enough to stand on that pitch and accept any criticism.

He is going to get DESTROYED in tomorrow's press all over the world.
 

Faddy

Banned
It will be intresting how the Aussie press takes this. They were sloppy and gifted Scotland tries, the scrum failed against a side not known for its packs dominance, handling errors all over the place including two at the try line.

At half time it looked like the missed conversions might be the Aussie's flaw but kicking wsa fine in the second but terrible decision making allowed Scotland to capitalise.

As a Scotland fan I am really annoyed at the ref with two big decisions going against us with the yellow card too harsh and the last minute pen factually incorrect. Overall Joubert had a poor game with a whole load of smaller bizarre decisions probably even against each side. We should have executed better at our lineout, twice it cost us points but Joubert gifted the Aussies the last pen. Their scrum and if they win a penalty or set up a drop goal then fair play but this has just left a bad taste.

It always seems the breaks go to the bigger sides and proved again today. At least we can go out with our head held high. We have been trying to play an expansive game and it paid off today we just need that execution to follow to the 6 Nations.
 
He sprinted off because he knew he fucked up. While Foley was teeing up that kick he was WATCHING THE FUCKING BIG SCREEN.

Yes Scotland should have executed the lineout - but Joubert's decision has cost Scotland the game, and he wasn't even man enough to stand on that pitch and accept any criticism.

He is going to get DESTROYED in tomorrow's press all over the world.

Yeah okay, you need to go calm down or something. Joubert's fronted up and apologised when he thought he'd made a mistake before, why would that suddenly change now?

I was just told of this:
The TMO can be used only in the following circumstances:

  • Determining the grounding of the ball in-goal for a try or touchdown and/or whether players were in touch or touch in goal before grounding
  • Determining whether a kick at goal has been successful
  • Confirm if an infringement has occurred in the build-up to a try or prevention of a try (infringement must be within two phases of the try or touchdown)
  • Considering acts of possible foul play
http://www.rugbyworldcup.com/news/96575

So he couldn't have used the TMO even if he wanted to.
 

kmag

Member
Yeah okay, you need to go calm down or something. Joubert's fronted up and apologised when he thought he'd made a mistake before, why would that suddenly change now?

I was just told of this:

http://www.rugbyworldcup.com/news/96575

So he couldn't have used the TMO even if he wanted to.

Any play which ends up a penalty is considered foul play, that's why it's a penalty as opposed to a scrum or free kick. Knock ons have been referred before when they result in a penalty as opposed to a scrum.

To be fair to Joubert, the most egregious miss was the late tackle on Hogg. Can't believe the TMO didn't buzz down for that. Mitchell will get cited for it.
 

pulsemyne

Member
What's that? Joubert being an awful ref? No fucking change there then. Can't we just clone Nigel Owens and have him ref every game.
 
Any play which ends up a penalty is considered foul play, that's why it's a penalty as opposed to a scrum or free kick. Knock ons have been referred before when they result in a penalty as opposed to a scrum.

To be fair to Joubert, the most egregious miss was the late tackle on Hogg. Can't believe the TMO didn't buzz down for that. Mitchell will get cited for it.

I just had another look at the laws and offsides aren't considered foul play.

pulsemyne, since when has Joubert ever been an awful ref? He has his off games but I'd still rate him as the second best ref behind Owens at the moment.
 

weekev

Banned
Decided not to do a big post until I got over the rage/disappointment/sadness/upset/disappointment out of my system. Looking at all the decisions with a clear and rational head on, the only thing that still irks me is the lack of TMO for the crucial decision.

Immensely proud of the team, absolutely played their hearts out and left everything on the pitch, cant ask for more than that.
 

CCS

Banned
On a positive note, that was the best performance both in terms of mental attitude and actual performance levels I've seen from Scotland for a long time. Given a lot of the key players are young, I feel that there's a lot of promise going forward.
 

Omikaru

Member
Scotland were robbed.

Very disappointed for them, but Scots should be proud. They played immensely well. Cannot wait for the Six Nations in 2016 now!

Southern hemisphere dominance in the World Cup, it seems. A big shame.
 

JP

Member
It seems now that somebody threw a bottle at Joubert at the end which caused him to leave the field. If it is true, irrelevant of how right or wrong his decision was, that sort of behaviour isn't acceptable.

EDIT:
Reading in the Telegraph, World Rugby (IRB) have confirmed that Joubert wasn't allowed to consult the TMO.

The reason being that they can only be consulted for play that occurs during the build-up of a try and not to judge whether the penalty for offside was correct or not.
 

CCS

Banned
The thing is, even if he can't consult the TMO, the TMO can talk to him. That's why Maitland ended up in the bin in the first place. As has happened multiple times at this world cup already (e.g. Italy v Canada), the TMO can talk to the ref and tell him how to restart play.

And let's face it, Mitchell should have had a pen given against him and a yellow.
 
The thing is, even if he can't consult the TMO, the TMO can talk to him. That's why Maitland ended up in the bin in the first place. As has happened multiple times at this world cup already (e.g. Italy v Canada), the TMO can talk to the ref and tell him how to restart play.

And let's face it, Mitchell should have had a pen given against him and a yellow.

No the TMO can't. They can only bring specific play to the refs attention (specifically foul play), not just anything they like.

Let me remind you that Joubert was the referee responsible for this disgrace of a performance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XBqetaCfgo

... Never mind, I have no respect for your opinion anymore.
 

BanGy.nz

Banned
I'm watching the Scotland press conference, boy it's rough. Laidlaw and Vern both desperately don't want to be answer questions.
 

JP

Member
The issue with him consulting the TMO here is that he could have done it before he made his initial ruling but he can't do it to after his decision to check whether he has judged as the correct type of foul play.

Watching how this happened, when the ball was touched the Australian players instantly reacted to draw his attention to what they wanted them to believe was an intentionally offside and from where he was standing, he saw that way too.

Once he's called it, it's over.

There are certainly issues with what happened but not the issues that some are stating. The issue for me is that I don't believe that Craig Joubert is able to referee at this level and he has proven this time and time again. It's almost as if when he is under pressure he loses the ability to make think straight and makes snap decisions.

What he should have done was to consult the TMO before making the judgment as he is allowed to do that but once he has made that decision, he can't go back to consult the TMO.

This for me lines up with the issues that I have with officials being able to change their mind about things if the programme director decides that they want to show a particular camera angle of certain incidents. They create doubts concerning fair play and allow questions to be asked that should be eliminated at the root.
 
If he was biased against Australia he'd have continued calling them for collapsing the scrum which he didn't and would have carded someone after the 4th time they did it which he didn't.

My only issue is that half the collapsed scrums were due to the Scottish tight head falling flat on his face. His interpretation of scrum rules can be infuriatingly bad at times.
 
The issue with him consulting the TMO here is that he could have done it before he made his initial ruling but he can't do it to after his decision to check whether he has judged as the correct type of foul play.

Watching how this happened, when the ball was touched the Australian players instantly reacted to draw his attention to what they wanted them to believe was an intentionally offside and from where he was standing, he saw that way too.

Once he's called it, it's over.

There are certainly issues with what happened but not the issues that some are stating. The issue for me is that I don't believe that Craig Joubert is able to referee at this level and he has proven this time and time again. It's almost as if when he is under pressure he loses the ability to make think straight and makes snap decisions.

What he should have done was to consult the TMO before making the judgment as he is allowed to do that but once he has made that decision, he can't go back to consult the TMO.

This for me lines up with the issues that I have with officials being able to change their mind about things if the programme director decides that they want to show a particular camera angle of certain incidents. They create doubts concerning fair play and allow questions to be asked that should be eliminated at the root.

When? Joubert was by far and away the best ref at the 2011 RWC, which is why he was rewarded with reffing the final, where by most accounts he had a good game (including by Joel Jutge).

I have no idea how often you guys see him up north but I've seen a lot of him over the years in the Super 14/15 and Rugby Championship and while he has had a few shocking mistakes over the years (and always owns up to them), for the vast majority of his games, he's a very consistent, accurate and fair ref. I wouldn't rate him the best ref at the moment, Owens has had that locked up for the last couple of years now, but I'd still rate him over Barnes or Garces by a pretty comfortable margin.

Oh come on everyone who wasn't a new zealand fan could see he was awful during that game. It was comically bad.

The only thing comically bad was the linked video. Some of the supposed infringements were so minor and pedantic only the most whistle happy ref would've done anything about them. Meanwhile, French infringements and calls that went their way (like the scrum penalty) are conveniently ignored because that doesn't suit the narrative. And then the video goes into a ridiculous conspiracy theory that Paddy O'Brien engineered the All Blacks win.

It's always the same shit. Refs favour the All Blacks, the All Blacks cheat, Richie McCaw is a dirty player and on and on, all based on the 3-4 times (if that) you see us play every year and your biased media coverage.
 
Craig Joubert is to Scotland what Wayne Barnes is(was?) to New Zealand.

Don't forget Bryce Lawrence to South Africa in 2011.

At least Barnes and Lawrence had pretty bad games though, I don't think Joubert did. A couple of mistakes, sure, but Scotland still had plenty of chances to decide their own fate.

How do you feel on the subject of spear tackles?

Let me guess, you're going to complain about something that happened 10 years ago by a retired player and a soon to be retired (bench) player. It wasn't a spear tackle, it was a clean out. It turned out to be dangerous, which sucks, but it was an accident and the rules were non-existent on lifting players back then (and were only introduced 6 years later). What more do I need to say?

In hindsight, I think the media circus surrounding that event ended up distracting the Lions more than anything because that series was a cakewalk, even when McAlister (a notoriously flakey first five) started instead of Dan Carter.
 

Bradach

Member
A bitter day of rugby yesterday.

The only consolation is that 3 of those 4 remaining teams will soon taste defeat. Was that too cynical? I get grumpier as I get older
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
A bitter day of rugby yesterday.

The only consolation is that 3 of those 4 remaining teams will soon taste defeat. Was that too cynical? I get grumpier as I get older

I on the other hand get more phlegmatic as I get older. It's a game of Rugby. Somebody wins and somebody loses.

The Northern Hemisphere was not humiliated at the weekend. Two of the matches were close and hard-fought and won/lost only at the last, that's no humiliation. Besides, I've no particular flag to carry for the Hemisphere anyway - you might as well say that the Eastern and Western Hemispheres each got two teams through.

Sure, France were humiliated, but that sort of comes with the territory sometimes. And no more so than South Africa were humiliated by Japan.

I've no problem with the refereeing either. Of course referees sometimes make bad calls - but fewer than we usually think when we are emotionaly involved in the game. It's always instructive to look at match reports from the other side or from neutral countries, because for every seemingly rotten match-turning decision there's another one somewhere in the same game that could have turned the match the other way.

Roll on the semis - there's some good rugby to be seen (and judging by this last weekend, both SA and Aus may have something to be worried about).
 

JP

Member
...edited...
I have to correct myself here having spent time looking into the TMO rules and recent information distributed by World Rugby.

A referee has absolutely no authoriy to consult the TMO in relation to offside decisions. At no point during that incident was Craig Joubert allowed to consult the TMO.

Watching the replay, he raises his arm to 90 degrees to signal a knock-on as soon as the ball came off the Scotland player and then raises his arm vertically and blows the whistle for the off-side as soon as it hits the second player.

Looking at where he was positioned, which was the correct place to be for a line-out, I don't see any alternative to what he did call. He knows the laws state that he can't go to the TMO for an offside and all he can do is play what he believes that he has seen and everything about it looks like an offside if you're watching it live from behind the player involved.

It wasn't the correct decision but t's very easy to say that when you're watching replays after the fact from different angles, during the match you can only call what you believe you see and you have to make that decision there and then.

Although I do seem to disagree with Joubert's decisions more than any other member of the WRIRP, I just don't see that he really had an alternative to making the call that he did.

Wrong calls shouldn't happen but they do and unfortunately they always will. It's a nightmare for Scotland and t's not fair but the match is over and the result can't change. It's horrible when it goes against you but there's nothing anybody can do about it.

Joubert's performance will be reviewed as happens with all referees, particularly so when they have made a mistake like this, but nobody will question him not using the TMO because that was something that he got 100% correct.
 
Good lord.

You're a scary fucking person.

Yes, what a monster I am for thinking that taking someone out in the ruck is a cleanout, not a tackle (just like what Gray and Ford did against Samoa last week) and agreeing with BOD that it was an accident. It's been 10 years and that Lions squad was always going to be on the losing end of a 3-0 thrashing, get over it already, BOD has.

/snip

Wrong calls shouldn't happen but they do and unfortunately they always will. It's a nightmare for Scotland and t's not fair but the match is over and the result can't change. It's horrible when it goes against you but there's nothing anybody can do about it.

Joubert's performance will be reviewed as happens with all referees, particularly so when they have made a mistake like this, but nobody will question him not using the TMO because that was something that he got 100% correct.

Good post, JP. It sucks when you're on the receiving end of a mistaken call but it happens. World Rugby could always extend the use of the TMO even further but then it was only a couple of weeks ago that many of us were complaining about the continual interference into the games. There's no perfect solution.

One major decision Joubert made that I think a lot of people of the complainers are forgetting/ignoring is the knock on he spotted right before the AAC non-try in the second half. That was a fantastic call that not many refs would've spotted and kept Scotland in the game.
 

FaceTurn

Member
Everyone whining here needs to see all the scrum penalties Joubert awarded to Scotland despite them boring in with Sio leaving injured because of it. If it wasn't for that, Scotland might not have even been that close to winning it. Not to mention the fact he picked up the knock on Genia did thus disallowing the try. Not many refs would have caught that.

The Wobblies played atrociously and Scotland played a hell of a game but at the end of the day they choked the lineout thus leaving it in the ref's hands. It's easy to judge when you get slow-mo replays. Imagine being there and having to make a split second decision. One decision did not cost Scotland the game.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Everyone whining here needs to see all the scrum penalties Joubert awarded to Scotland despite them boring in with Sio leaving injured because of it. If it wasn't for that, Scotland might not have even been that close to winning it. Not to mention the fact he picked up the knock on Genia did thus disallowing the try. Not many refs would have caught that.

It's unfortunate that he got injured, but that was clearly collapsed by Sio. And actually speaking about this, the referee should have awarded an yellow card for repeated infringements with all the collapsing scrums.
 
D

Deleted member 1235

Unconfirmed Member
Everyone whining here needs to see all the scrum penalties Joubert awarded to Scotland despite them boring in with Sio leaving injured because of it. If it wasn't for that, Scotland might not have even been that close to winning it. Not to mention the fact he picked up the knock on Genia did thus disallowing the try. Not many refs would have caught that.

The Wobblies played atrociously and Scotland played a hell of a game but at the end of the day they choked the lineout thus leaving it in the ref's hands. It's easy to judge when you get slow-mo replays. Imagine being there and having to make a split second decision. One decision did not cost Scotland the game.

I have to say, I went and tracked down a slow mo of the 'incident' and fuck I watched it about 20 times on my phone and couldn't tell what the fuck happened. maybe there is a better angle that shows it clearly, but to me, that looked like it could have come off either the Scots or the Aussie dude.

Note that I'm a kiwi supporter, so the scots going through would have served my purposes admirably. I just didn't think it was 'clear' that Joubert fucked that call. From where he was standing it may have looked clear as day off a Scot (even if it wasn't). Ref has to call what he sees and he had no TMO option.

edit: regards to how pissed you are at the result, it's obvious to see HOW a ref could get the call wrong. I don't believe there was maliciousness. Anyone got an awesome slo-mo gif of the moment?
I found this vid where it's shown
http://www.balls.ie/rugby/joubert-twitter/312975

at around 20 seconds. I could totally see that Joubert saw the aussie guy touch it, then the scotland 20 comes running in and the impact certainly could look like it came off his shoulder.

Do I misunderstand the call? If it DID come off the scotish guys shoulder (which it apparently doesn't) should the call be a penalty, or is the argument that even if that was the case, it should still NOT be a penalty?
 

CCS

Banned
I have to say, I went and tracked down a slow mo of the 'incident' and fuck I watched it about 20 times on my phone and couldn't tell what the fuck happened. maybe there is a better angle that shows it clearly, but to me, that looked like it could have come off either the Scots or the Aussie dude.

Note that I'm a kiwi supporter, so the scots going through would have served my purposes admirably. I just didn't think it was 'clear' that Joubert fucked that call. From where he was standing it may have looked clear as day off a Scot (even if it wasn't). Ref has to call what he sees and he had no TMO option.

edit: regards to how pissed you are at the result, it's obvious to see HOW a ref could get the call wrong. I don't believe there was maliciousness. Anyone got an awesome slo-mo gif of the moment?
I found this vid where it's shown
http://www.balls.ie/rugby/joubert-twitter/312975

at around 20 seconds. I could totally see that Joubert saw the aussie guy touch it, then the scotland 20 comes running in and the impact certainly could look like it came off his shoulder.

Do I misunderstand the call? If it DID come off the scotish guys shoulder (which it apparently doesn't) should the call be a penalty, or is the argument that even if that was the case, it should still NOT be a penalty?

If it came of the Scottish player's shoulder, by my understanding is that it wouldn't be a penalty, as for it to be deliberate offside the player who originally made contact with the ball has to have played at it. There was an example in one of the games at the weekend where the ball bounced forward off the knee of a player on the floor and was picked up by a man in front of him. It was given as accidental offside as the player who played the ball forward towards the man who picked it up had not deliberately played the ball.
 

Random17

Member
I'm nervous for the semis...I'm not convinced the All Blacks have had to face very challenging opposition yet. Almost all of their games have been 10+ victories, relatively safe so far.
 

Thraktor

Member
Well that was a depressing weekend as an Ireland fan (and as someone from the northern hemisphere more generally). The loss of Sexton really hurt us, much moreso than our other injuries. While we've gotten a lot better at grinding out wins even when we're playing poorly (see our match against Italy), you can only do that when you've got an experienced fly-half to manage the game, and although Madigan's a capable player, he's no Sexton when it comes to these kinds of situations. He didn't effectively relieve pressure during the first ten minutes when we were on our back foot, and he didn't keep the pressure on Argentina as effectively as he should after we came back into the game. He kicked a lot of Garryowens which we weren't properly competing for, giving Argentina possession in dangerous situations, and despite the fact that our line-out has been working flawlessly, I can only remember him kicking to touch once, and that went straight out.

I know it would seem a bit delusional to claim the outcome could have been changed by one player, given the final scoreline, but so much of Ireland's problems were psychological, with players clearly remembering our last World Cup, where we beat Australia to top our group, only to be knocked out in the quarters by Wales, having gone into the match as the favourites. A player like Sexton could have done a lot to steady those nerves and put the pressure on Argentina instead, and it's a shame that a 50/50 injury happened to prevent him from doing so.
 
It's unfortunate that he got injured, but that was clearly collapsed by Sio. And actually speaking about this, the referee should have awarded an yellow card for repeated infringements with all the collapsing scrums.

Absolutely. The scottish tight head did nothing but fall flat on his face but never got called for it.
 

FaceTurn

Member
The darkness has this in the bag. After their showing against France and SA's lackluster performance so far, should be an easy win to the grand finals.
 
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