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RUMOR: NX more powerful than PS4, Splatoon/Mario Maker ports in development

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Vena

Member
Yeah it was an educated guess* on Thraktor's part since "primitive discard accelerator" sounds like it might be related to a feature which Polaris definitely has.

I believe we have no conformation that the Polaris feature in question is actually called a "primitive discard accelerator", but it discards unneeded polygons (I think!) so seems to match that name.



*very educated! :)

It culls triangles that aren't going to be on screen/visible.
 

Doctre81

Member
It probably just uses some features of polaris seeing as how they were probably developed at the same time but is SEMI custom. All depends on the wording. Don't forget that IBM themselves implied that WiiU's cpu was "based on watson" when reality the only thing it had in common was edram and IBM"s SOI tech.
 

The_Lump

Banned
It culls triangles that aren't going to be on screen/visible.

Yep, sorry that's what I meant by "unneeded".

So basically what I'm saying is; Thraktor took a stab at what "primitive discard accelerator" might be referrimg to. And I think it's a fairly safe assumption.

Of course, adds nothing to the validity of the source. Anyone could make up that name in an attempt to make a link to the known Polaris features
 

Doctre81

Member
d09a7af86f3472ce40b45338533cdcd9.png

Sounds like we are way off....
 
To sum up what Vena and Mpl90 said; Emily just grounded us back to reality because we were all floating away. Some still crashed into earth pretty hard though she never indicated the system would be weaker than the other 2 systems.

Exactly, and add to that the fact that dozens of pages of this thread involved people already assuming a brand new Polaris based 14nm GPU was already confirmed, meaning >PS4k power levels.

Emily essentially said that a Polaris based 14nm chip was false, that the wifi based gamepad was completely made up, but that the NX specs are still good.

Whereas 10k's source seemed to say that the semi custom chip would include some features of Polaris and Fiji, presumably features that can be gleaned from working on the SDK, which is all that most developers that are working on NX probably have access to.
 
Am i the only one that is more interested in the launch window games that aren't ports? Power is nice and all, but the most important thing to me are the launch window games, the very same ones that pushed me to get a Wii in 2006, the E3 of that year was stellar!

the NX could be the most powerful console out there, i wouldn't get it day 1 only with Wii U Ports, Pikmin and some Third Party Games, i want to see the full power of Nintendo with many first party games that will release in its first year and hopefully some new IP's
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
I think he's serious, and he's technically not incorrect. No one at Nintendo's R&D and those with this information, would care about whatever the hell we're going in circles about. The info she has is obviously going to be second hand just as 10k's info is second-hand.

The bigger question is who is the developer who fed 10k this information (and who is feeding Emily this information, is it another developer?), as we know its a dev who told him about the Polaris-based operations within the API/SDK but never did said source claim actual Polaris and 14nm FinFET. As has been noted, that information does not actually conclude or pre-conclude 14nm/Polaris GPU, that was a conclusion that we jumped on in this thread and took to rather absurd heights.

The issue that arises from ruling out 14nm (which, I suppose, in and of itself has not been ruled out but common sense would generally err on the side of ruling out tech that is barely in production) leads to a very bizarre situation with the GPU. It, in many ways, leads to a conclusion that is effectively nonsensical unless AMD+Nintendo came up with a very bizarre but effective (both in cost and performance) amalgamation of feature sets between GCN 1.2 and 1.3. From a basic point of view, this would be MORE expensive than just making a 14nm Polaris GPU.

Of course, the way Emily worded her response could also be construed to be about Polaris 10/11 rumors that had been circulating as those are actual GPUs that one could get wrong... and are the only actual GPUs mentioned. Polaris in and of itself isn't a GPU its an architecture. You could have both rumors end up being true, end up with 14nm, but end up with a very custom GPU that is of the Polaris family but is considerably lower than Polaris 10/11 in performance and, as a consequence, price.

However, as the CPU rumor/leak hasn't been debunked and the GamerGirl information also remains un-challenged by Emily and others, one can still rather un-crazily conclude that we'll be looking at a CPU performance over the PS4 of roughly ~30-40% (or the equivalent smaller gains over the X1's CPU), and the GPU has to have had at least a 10-20% gain over the PS4's (not the X1s) to not introduce rather catastrophic bottlenecking in the opposite direction of what the twins are currently suffering from. Likewise the RAM also needs the throughput to make this feasible. All of this comes back around to Emily's notion of "specs are good".
The only way NX could have "2x ps4's GPU peformance" not just in some isolated corner cases but on the average, is if it was running on a 14nm Polaris. There's nothing else that could do that - not APIs, not CPUs, nothing.

I don't expect that to be the case, and thus I don't expect NX GPU to be anywhere near 2x ps4's. That just for the record.
 

Vena

Member
The only way NX could have "2x ps4's GPU peformance" not just in some isolated corner cases but on the average, is if it was running on a 14nm Polaris. There's nothing else that could do that - not APIs, not CPUs, nothing.

I don't expect that to be the case, and thus I don't expect NX GPU to be anywhere near 2x ps4's. That just for the record.

Oh I agree, lol. I think that estimate is glorified to say the least if its even remotely true.
 

ZOONAMI

Junior Member
The only way NX could have "2x ps4's GPU peformance" not just in some isolated corner cases but on the average, is if it was running on a 14nm Polaris. There's nothing else that could do that - not APIs, not CPUs, nothing.

I don't expect that to be the case, and thus I don't expect NX GPU to be anywhere near 2x ps4's. That just for the record.

Something based on fiji (fury) which was also mentioned by 10ks source, even if cut down quite a bit and downclocked for power consumption purposes, would be 2x more powerful than ps4 from a gpu perspective. Fury nano is over 8 tflops. Some sort of Apu with fiji origins and Polaris features is not unthinkable.
 
d09a7af86f3472ce40b45338533cdcd9.png

Sounds like we are way off....

I'm pretty sure that this isn't the real Emily Rogers. During the GoNintendo podcast 2 weeks ago RMC said that he had been in touch with the real Emily and that, that wasn't her. If this is the case, then why are we so keen to believe everything she says?
 

The_Lump

Banned
Oh I agree, lol. I think that estimate is glorified to say the least.


Any estimate of %'s or "__x more powerful" coming from an apparent 3rd party dev source is bs imo. What would they be using to measure it? Without knowing fine detail of the specs and architecture there's no reliable metric. And Nintendo don't generally do in-depth spec sheets.

I'm pretty sure that this isn't the real Emily Rogers. During the GoNintendo podcast 2 weeks ago RMC said that he had been in touch with the real Emily and that, that wasn't her. If this is the case, then why are we so keen to believe everything she says?

Not this again. It's her.
 

Vena

Member
Something based on fiji (fury) which was also mentioned by 10ks source, even if cut down quite a bit and downclocked for power consumption purposes, would be 2x more powerful than ps4 from a gpu perspective. Fury nano is over 8 tflops. Some sort of Apu with fiji origins and Polaris features is not unthinkable.

This would cost several hundred dollars alone.
 

DrWong

Member
I'm pretty sure that this isn't the real Emily Rogers. During the GoNintendo podcast RMC said that he had been in touch with the real Emily and that, that wasn't her. If this is the case, then why are we so keen to believe everything she says?
It's a 3D printed Emily Rogers?
 
I'm pretty sure that this isn't the real Emily Rogers. During the GoNintendo podcast 2 weeks ago RMC said that he had been in touch with the real Emily and that, that wasn't her. If this is the case, then why are we so keen to believe everything she says?

I'm not sure what RMC is talking about; this has been verified as being her
 
The only way NX could have "2x ps4's GPU peformance" not just in some isolated corner cases but on the average, is if it was running on a 14nm Polaris. There's nothing else that could do that - not APIs, not CPUs, nothing.

I don't expect that to be the case, and thus I don't expect NX GPU to be anywhere near 2x ps4's. That just for the record.

Well, not to argue about the likelihood of the leak, but 10k's source apparently said

So far I know this: Polaris architecture as a base, mixed with Fiji, low power consumption, raw power numbers are modest increase, performance for optimized games for NX would be easily 2x PS4 performance.

Which seems to say that only SUPER optimized games, like those by Nintendo's best teams, would have a 2x PS4 performance.

Again, not that I believe that comparison.
 

ZOONAMI

Junior Member
This would cost several hundred dollars alone.

Do you know what the BOM is on a stock fury nano?

It it was cut down, downclocked, and used gddr5 instead of hbm do you know what amd would charge for it? I certainly don't, and I don't think anyone does.
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Something based on fiji (fury) which was also mentioned by 10ks source, even if cut down quite a bit and downclocked for power consumption purposes, would be 2x more powerful than ps4 from a gpu perspective. Fury nano is over 8 tflops. Some sort of Apu with fiji origins and Polaris features is not unthinkable.
Something based on Fiji? Why not on a TitanX?

Come on people, let's try to stay reasonable.
 

Vena

Member
Do you know what the BOM is on a stock fury nano?

No. But mixing Fiji with Polaris would magnify the price, and the BoM while lower than a standard Fury which are themselves very expensive, would not make this a very affordable proposition. This is why I said, barring some magic developments with AMD+Nintendo, it is very suspect to expect some amalgamation as it would simply be cost-prohibitive.

We're talking Titan X levels of pricing here, even if you go down to BoM over MSRP its still expensive.
 

ZOONAMI

Junior Member
Something based on Fiji? Why not on a TitanX?

That's what 10ks source said, so just speculating on that. I don't think something with fiji origins that is cut down and using gddr5 or ddr4 instead of hbm, with added polaris features, is out of the question.
 
I'm not sure what RMC is talking about; this has been verified as being her

Maybe I misunderstood him. I don't follow this thread religiously, I pop in a couple times during the week and attempt to catch up on new developments.

At this point, I'm so confused with the amount of supposed leaks and rumors going around, I can't keep track of everything. Each rumor is contradicts the last one. I wouldn't be surprised if the NX was a vacuum that played Super Mario music.


Thanks! At least I know I wasn't hearing things.
 

ZOONAMI

Junior Member
No. But mixing Fiji with Polaris would magnify the price, and the BoM while lower than a standard Fury which are themselves very expensive, would not make this a very affordable proposition. This is why I said, barring some magic developments with AMD+Nintendo, it is very suspect to expect some amalgamation as it would simply be cost-prohibitive.

We're talking Titan X levels of pricing here, even if you go down to BoM over MSRP its still expensive.

Last I checked $499 is not $1049.

And anything fiji based would obviously be cut down for cost and heat/power savings.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Do we know which sources ran away? Haha.



The "developer info" on the feature-sets is more than accessible from the API/SDK, if I see functions that are only present in 1.3 or 1.2, its fairly straightforward to conclude that it has to be one of these things or both. The "2x performance" is impossible to gauge, however, and can mean all sorts of things without context.

Fiji = fury line. SDK very may well have fury nano as target specs, and also new GCN 1.3 features that will be on polaris.

I don't think it's that crazy.

The BOM on a cut down fury may be less than we all think as well, if AMD gave Nintendo a deal. We can't really say such a chip wouldn't be in the $100 BOM range, which would be workable for a $299-$399 launch price console.


It's in the OP, ffs.

Most dev kits won't be given until Nintendo formally reveals the NX. As my previous post indicated, Nintendo is none too happy with the leaks and is keeping things on lockdown. Outside of close partners and internal teams, most devs are using SDK's until the NX reveal. Not a big deal, but I was told specs are pretty much final as of now, and the May update will likely be for the final spec sheet and not target specs.

NX SDK's are out there right now and my sources can confirm dev's have them, so don't worry too much about when you hear stuff like nobody has a dev kit yet.

So Nintendo is very careful to distribute just the SDK, not the devkit, but this whole secrecy goes bust because they will just let all the hardware info into the SDK anyhow.

You've already mentioned this. But you don't know what Thraktor has said to 10k so you are just as much assuming as 10k was. Bias indeed. Thraktor is one of the few tech-savvy posters here, along with Blu, that actually puts some effort into his posts, trying to make it understandable for guys like you and me. One of the few tech-savvy that actually take the effort to post in Nintendo topics, and i have not seen him show any bias in favor of hype in the years since i started following gaf.

But maybe you're privvy to the exact communication between Thraktor and 10k. That's always possible.

And how do you know the dev has no devkit? Has 10k said this? I think there were also sources other than the GPU guy that said there were devkits at actual developers?

Kingsnake is assuming Thraktor got the exact and original quote from the developer, talking about Fiji and Polaris. Thraktor was the "tech-gaf" source that 10k used to see if the tech info he got was credible. That's why it's likely that 10k told him, unlike the rest of us, the exact info the dev gave him. We don't know the exact conversation between 10k and Thraktor, so assuming the blame falls on Thraktor is just as bad.

http://neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=201232554&postcount=7111

It could very well be a 28nm Tonga or Fiji gpu with Polaris features, but thraktor stated that would be very expensive and they'd be better off just using Polaris.

So what 10k presented initially wasn't what the source said directly, but an interpretation of it.
 
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