Support NeoGAF

[Shin Johnpv]

Links please. Mpeg2 was just Sony releases and mpeg2 was panned as a garbage codec immediately. Bitrate on bluray was far higher fyi.

From Wikipedia's article on comparing the 2 formats (yeah I know wikipedia, but I'm sorry I don't have 6 - 5 year old links discussing the formats). Also no shit BD had a higher bitrate, where did I ever say it didn't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_high_definition_optical_disc_formats

'The choice of video compression technology (codec) complicates any comparison of the formats. Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD both support the same three video compression standards: MPEG-2, VC-1 and AVC, each of which exhibits different bitrate/noise-ratio curves, visual impairments/artifacts, and encoder maturity. Initial Blu-ray Disc titles often used MPEG-2 video, which requires the highest average bitrate and thus the most space, to match the picture quality of the other two video codecs. As of July 2008 over 70% of Blu-ray Disc titles have been authored with the newer compression standards: AVC and VC-1.[5] HD DVD titles have used VC-1 and AVC almost exclusively since the format's introduction. Warner Bros., which used to release movies in both formats prior to June 1, 2007, often used the same encode (with VC-1 codec) for both Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD, with identical results. In contrast, Paramount used different encodings: initially MPEG-2 for early Blu-ray Disc releases, VC-1 for early HD DVD releases, and eventually AVC for both formats."

Notice how they both support the same 3 codecs, and it wasn't until 2008 that the majority of BD titles was using the modern codecs, that's 2 years. Also notice how they mention Paramount as using mpeg-2 for BD.

 

[venne]

It's the same MS that made IE into what it is today. There is precedence for their stupidity / evilness. I don't think they care about placing themselves into dangerous situations in terms of developer support, because they pretty much risk that with everything they do.

Is something wrong with IE today?

 

[Infinite Justice]

From Wikipedia's article on comparing the 2 formats (yeah I know wikipedia, but I'm sorry I don't have 6 - 5 year old links discussing the formats). Also no shit BD had a higher bitrate, where did I ever say it didn't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_high_definition_optical_disc_formats



Notice how they both support the same 3 codecs, and it wasn't until 2008 that the majority of BD titles was using the modern codecs, that's 2 years. Also notice how they mention Paramount as using mpeg-2 for BD.

Actually there is a link in the article that helps with your mpeg2 point.

http://www.blu-raystats.com/Stats/Stats.php?OrderBy=Title&ReleaseDate=2006&pSize=50&p=1

you'll see that a good chunk of them was using mpeg2 at the time.

 

[xemumanic]

All those ps2 games on psn right now, and every single one yet to be released, are being emulated.

No, they are NOT being emulated. Those games were ported, because the source was still available to do so.

Someone DID mention that some games might not have pushed the BW limitations, and MAYBE those titles may have been emulated, but that's highly unlikely.

Put simply, the edram in the GS (the PS2 GPU) gives it insane bandwidth, much like the 360 GPU. So much bandwidth, that it's beyond the ability of the RSX. The EE (The PS2 CPU) however, could be emulated by the CELL. That's why there were (lesser quality) BC-compatible PS3s that didn't have the EE+GS combo, but did have the GS.

 

[H_Prestige]

No, they are NOT being emulated. Those games were ported, because the source was still available to do so.

Someone DID mention that some games might not have pushed the BW limitations, and MAYBE those titles may have been emulated, but that's highly unlikely.

Put simply, the edram in the GS gives it insane BW, much like the 360 GPU.

If they were ported, then they would act and run like ps3 games do (no controller desyncing, disconnect from PSN). They would also be HD along with other graphical enhancements. And they wouldn't be listed as "playstation 2" software.

These games run in native ps2 res, just like ps2 games run on a BC ps3. Moreover, why would these publishers spend time and money porting over these niche, random ass ps2 games? There's no money in that.

Fact of the matter is, there's a crapload of ps2 games the ps3 can't emulate because of physical constraints. But there's a crapload it can emulate, and this is just a small sample.

 

[xemumanic]

If they were ported, then they would act and run like ps3 games do (no controller desyncing, disconnect from PSN). They would also be HD along with other graphical enhancements. And they wouldn't be listed as "playstation 2" software.

These games run in native ps2 res, just like ps2 games run on a BC ps3. Moreover, why would these publishers spend time and money porting over these niche, random ass ps2 games? There's no money in that.

Fact of the matter is, there's a crapload of ps2 games the ps3 can't emulate because of physical constraints. But there's a crapload it can emulate, and this is just a small sample.

When I said MAYBE some games didn't push the BW limitations, I didn't think of the excellent points you've brought up. Yeah, there's a lot of niche games being ported. So maybe they are being emulated, because they fit that bill. But there are games that no way, no how, they are being emulated. Shadow of the Colossus, for one. That game was pushing the GS so hard, it's got a craptacular framearate. But then, its also debatable if its niche or not. Either way, that game was ported. Its gotta be.

 

[Infinite Justice]

When I said MAYBE some games didn't push the BW limitations, I didn't think of the excellent points you've brought up. Yeah, there's a lot of niche games being ported. So maybe they are being emulated, because they fit that bill. But there are games that no way, no how, they are being emulated. Shadow of the Colossus, for one. That game was pushing the GS so hard, it's got a craptacular framearate. But then, its also debatable if its niche or not. Either way, that game was ported. Its gotta be.

I think you are taking his "all those ps2 games on psn" line a bit out of context.

He was talking about those "PS2 Classics" and not the others like Shadow and gow. Plus those (Shadow, GOW, Jak) are treated under a different category anyways (HD version/Remake/Classics HD)

 

[eastmen]

How would Microsoft have added anything to a processor architecture at a time when they couldn't even figure out adequate heatsink sizes?

Same way sony helped design the cd , dvd and bluray and yet still can't create an adequate drive ?

Sony went from having people turn psone's upside down or on their side to play game s, to the ps2 having to be fliped upside down to play games on to bluray drives just droping left and right on the ps3 .

Doesn't seem far fetched that MS had ideas they wanted included into the waternoose cpu and they had ibm intergrate them into the design

 

[xemumanic]

I think you are taking his "all those ps2 games on psn" line a bit out of context.

He was talking about those "PS2 Classics" and not the others like Shadow and gow. Plus those are treated under a different category anyways (HD version/Remake/Classics HD)

Probably, I have a knack for taking things a bit too literally at times

 

[eastmen]

Hey is it also possible to add edram to the cpu cores?

Beast of a cpu.

The cpu already uses fast cache

They have L1 which is normaly a small amount of the fastest dram possible

They have L2 which is a bit slower but normaly 2,4 or 6 time more than l1

They have l3 which is the slowest but is normaly 2-6 times bigger than L2

 

[Raistlin]

Because they couldn't output the high res audio codecs and downgraded it to dolby digital. In most first genn movies you had to actually choose lossless audio because launch players couldn't decode trueHD et al. Why are you throwing around attitude when you have zero clue what you are talking about. I never said ps3 was the first bluray player btw. However it was the best for years.

Didn't mean to throw around attitude ... not feeling well ... at the ER now. I'll continue the discussion tonight or tomorrow

 

[Phreaker]

lol @ people asking for more higher specs, you want to pay for a $599 machine?

2GB DDR is like $50 today (not in bulk). I'd rather pay a bit more now than have the thing RAM limited in a few years, if that were going to be the case. Especially if they are going to have another 7 year cycle.

 

[McHuj]

Hey is it also possible to add edram to the cpu cores?

Beast of a cpu.

IBM Power7 and upcoming Power A2 implement some caches as eDRAM instead of SRAMS. They can fit more cache that way and it helps power.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Xbox3 CPU was based on a derivative of the Power A2. It's a high performance CPU optimized for power efficiency.

 

[Nealand Liquor]

Didn't mean to throw around attitude ... not feeling well ... at the ER now. I'll continue the discussion tonight or tomorrow

Off topic: Totally not included in the conversation but I saw your post and even though we don't know each other I wanted to say I hope you feel better soon.

 

[statham]

2GB DDR is like $50 today (not in bulk). I'd rather pay a bit more now than have the thing RAM limited in a few years, if that were going to be the case. Especially if they are going to have another 7 year cycle.

thats the problem, you would so would I but would the rest of the world? this is how sony got into the 599 problem

 

[jagowar]

IBM Power7 and upcoming Power A2 implement some caches as eDRAM instead of SRAMS. They can fit more cache that way and it helps power.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Xbox3 CPU was based on a derivative of the Power A2. It's a high performance CPU optimized for power efficiency.

This probably already was posted here in previous pages but I'm not going through all of them to see... rumor here says the power7 will be the basis for the cpu. http://s3gal3aks.wordpress.com/2011/11/15/world-exclusive-xbox-ten-spec-sheet/

Personally I am not worried about the lack of ram.... I think its very likely that ms went to epic again and said what do you need to make unreal engine 4 run well. Because the edram allegedly went up that much I could easily see epic coming back and saying we need more edram this time and that is where they put the budget.

 

[ElFly]

100 MB of edram is crazy, considering that the 360 has 10.

 

[Warm Machine]

The amount of RAM needed to run the actual game systems is pretty small. Most RAM is used for storing meshes, audio, animation, and texture data. 2GB is a huge bit of memory especially if the OS overhead is small.

 

[Special J]

The amount of RAM needed to run the actual game systems is pretty small. Most RAM is used for storing meshes, audio, animation, and texture data. 2GB is a huge bit of memory especially if the OS overhead is small.

sorry but logic isnt allowed in this thread. we rather equate pc hardware with console hardware.

 

[ElFly]

Wasn't this thing going to run Windows 8?

And it will prolly be a multimedia hub on top of a console. I wouldn't assume the OS will be that small.

 

[Iknos]

Bring it on. Been 6 years now and we have a 7th year next year.

My cousin who is always right about everything videogame related says its going to be a disappointment. I don't care I just think it is time for the next gen.

 

[alphaNoid]

Just heard from a high ranking mole inside Blizzard, he works on the small team thats developing an unannounced project. Tight, high level exclusive access. Just today they received an official Xbox successor dev kit, not an early dev computer box, but a revised official-like development kit. I cannot give any more details because I was not provided any.

My source is very reliable.

 

[thuway]

People right now think 2 gb of ram is enough, but developer's really can do magic when given more space to move around with. I for one, still believe this thing will end up with 4gb of GDDR5 and a 6990 equivalent. Which would make it a beast of the ages.

 

[Proelite]

Just heard from a high ranking mole inside Blizzard, he works on the small team thats developing an unannounced project. Tight, high level exclusive access. Just today they received an official Xbox successor dev kit, not an early dev computer box, but a revised official-like development kit. I cannot give any more details because I was not provided any.

My source is very reliable.

Well that must have been a really exciting day for the team. I remember getting an early version of a htc phone at work and it was awesome.

 

[duk]

how about a dual core 6990m equivilent?

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Just heard from a high ranking mole inside Blizzard, he works on the small team thats developing an unannounced project. Tight, high level exclusive access. Just today they received an official Xbox successor dev kit, not an early dev computer box, but a revised official-like development kit. I cannot give any more details because I was not provided any.

My source is very reliable.

Very interesting if true.

 

[Proelite]

how about a dual core 6990m equivilent?

That's not much better than a 5850 bro.

3-4 teraflops is what I am expecting, per b3d predictions.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

Just heard from a high ranking mole inside Blizzard, he works on the small team thats developing an unannounced project. Tight, high level exclusive access. Just today they received an official Xbox successor dev kit, not an early dev computer box, but a revised official-like development kit. I cannot give any more details because I was not provided any.

My source is very reliable.

Given how much time till the rumored launch, looks like MS learned from some of it's early mistakes from the last time it launched first. The sooner the hardware gets in developer's hands, the better the launch titles will be.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

I really wonder what Blizzard could be working on for consoles. Lets ignore Diablo 3 since thats pretty much confirmed. Perhaps Titan? Though the source says an unannounced project. Hmmm

 

[GavinGT]

There will be a shit-ton more of these rumors over the next year. Sites like hits, and they're not beholden to tell the truth in order to get them. We really shouldn't be devoting so much attention to every single one that sounds even halfway plausible.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

There will be a shit-ton more of these rumors over the next year. Sites like hits, and they're not beholden to tell the truth in order to get them. We really shouldn't be devoting so much attention to every single one that sounds even halfway plausible.

Except where there is smoke there is fire. It was like that with the Wii U as well.

 

[specialguy]

There will be a shit-ton more of these rumors over the next year. Sites like hits, and they're not beholden to tell the truth in order to get them. We really shouldn't be devoting so much attention to every single one that sounds even halfway plausible.

Yeah, the fact we do seems to prove to me we're really hungry for next gen.

I know I am, this gen's graphics just cant wow me anymore, and a new gen always brings tons of pure excitement. The first time I played Gears of War, the first time people stepped out into the open in Oblivion, you dont get those wow moments 6 years into a generation.

A new gen also give all companies a chance to change their lot in the market, for better or worse. That's also exciting.

 

[Zeal]

Only thing for certain is that the next-gen projects have been well under way for a while now. I love when things start heating up and rumors like this start to drizzle out. It makes things so much more fun in the industry.

 

[specialguy]

Except where there is smoke there is fire. It was like that with the Wii U as well.

I dont consider any of these rumors on par with the early Wii U ones though. If you'll remember, those had an air of complete fact and finality to them, and were confirmed quickly. I remember Wario 64 posted those first Wii U confirmations. You could just tell they were true and the thread exploded.

These are still a hodgepodge of small website rumors, and none of them are coordinated enough to consider truth. Hell, just days ago GAF was gaga over the whole project ten stuff. Now we're in a totally different rumor. How quickly we forget. If that rumor was forgotten as soon as this one came along, odds are this one will be forgotten as soon as the next one does.

The only thing that makes this one slightly more credible is that the specs involved in this one seem more realistically powerful, a lot of the past ones made it seem like next box was some arm powered box sipping a few watts, and that's just not realistic. These rumored specs, at least if you add 2GB VRAM to them, sound pretty realistic. Doesn't mean they're true though.

 

[RaijinFY]

This probably already was posted here in previous pages but I'm not going through all of them to see... rumor here says the power7 will be the basis for the cpu. http://s3gal3aks.wordpress.com/2011/11/15/world-exclusive-xbox-ten-spec-sheet/

Personally I am not worried about the lack of ram.... I think its very likely that ms went to epic again and said what do you need to make unreal engine 4 run well. Because the edram allegedly went up that much I could easily see epic coming back and saying we need more edram this time and that is where they put the budget.

This rumour is crap, forget about that lol.

 

[Demoncarnotaur]

Im starting to believe there may be some credibility to these rumors as so many are cropping up in a short amount of time. Still, there are a ton of posts here and I cant get a feel for the general consensus.. are these leaks fairly credible?

 

[Psychotext]

Reading this thread is like watching Groundhog Day.

I was thinking exactly the same thing.

 

[IMACOMPUTA]

XBOX TEN : YOU ARE THE CONSOLE

 

[BurntPork]

I'm shocked that it's not XBox 7/8.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

Im starting to believe there may be some credibility to these rumors as so many are cropping up in a short amount of time. Still, there are a ton of posts here and I cant get a feel for the general consensus.. are these leaks fairly credible?

The newest rumor is not legit according to Beyond3d. The consensus is that 2gb of ram is the general ball-park, but what kind of ram, and if there might be Vram is unknown. Anything specific is still random speculation at this point.

 

[TheExecutive]

Excuse the noob question but what's the point of a 6 core CPU with that little of ram? What would be the thought process? 4 core + 4 gig ram seems like it would not only be cheaper but better from a gaming standpoint.

 

[Strike]

Spike is broadcasting CES exclusively next year if that means anything. I'm still not sure that this will make 2012, but you can bet that MS will probably do something to rain on Wii U's coming out party at E3.

 

[DopeyFish]

That's not much better than a 5850 bro.

3-4 teraflops is what I am expecting, per b3d predictions.

Uhhhh

Lol.

A 6990m is more powerful than a 5850 afaik

I use a 5770 which is just an under locked variant of the 5850, and my 6990m is almost double the speed

Playing Starcraft 2 I get twice the frame rate on ultra than I do on my 5770 running on high

(just a note, all games perform quite a lot better on the 6990m in my experience)

 

[Knoxcore]

For people that are complaining about RAM, please read this.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/graphics-ram-4870,2428.html

The rumor is 2GB of system RAM, we don't know if there will be dedicated VRAM. I'm betting there will be. Chillax!

 

[bgassassin]

I agree from a selfish standpoint, I'm already itching for next gen hardware cause I'm a graphics whore at heart.

That said I'm guessing the long gen trend will increase next gen if anything, as hardware development costs and complexity rise.

In fact, I'm hardly sure that after next gen there will even be another gen, process shrinks are getting really difficult and have an uncertain future, and I think cloud gaming (aka, Onlive, etc.) could one day replace consoles. Next gen I'm sure of, after that it gets hazy imo.

All that said, I just realized there are factors that could lead to a shorter gen. Basically this gen they're all 3 on the same timeline and all reasonably happy with their console, therefore nobody saw any reason to jump to next gen. But lets say if, as I expect, Wii U is a huge flop. That could well cause Nintendo to ditch it and spring a new console a couple of years, or even four years, into PS4/XBox next generation. That could then hasten the obsolescence of those, if it's technically superior (questionable knowing Nintendo, but anyway). And it need not be Nintendo, but simply any of the big 3 being unhappy with it's position next gen and deciding to rush next-next gen.

The point is what really brings the pressure for next gen, is when the first next gen contender enters the ring. Basically how Dreamcast forced Sony to hurry the PS2. Heck, the Wii U could yet provide pressure on sony/ms to hurry PS4/XBox 720, if indeed it's "significantly" more powerful than 360/PS3.

Sorry, I meant to respond sooner. I just like the idea of getting the best possible without breaking the bank and then getting to best possible the following gen ASAP. I said 5-6 years before, but even six years is too long IMO. In hindsight I don't remember if there were a lot of people even complaining about the 360 coming out four years after Xbox.

As for flopping causing a shorter gen for a console, I don't expect any of the consoles to "flop". I just don't think any of them will outsell their predecessor's final numbers. If anybody does, I would believe it would be Xbox3.

Also I don't think Wii U put any pressure on the others to possibly hurry. I felt they've always targeted a late-2012 to early-2013 launch and didn't want to reveal things too soon to the focus on their current consoles.

Just heard from a high ranking mole inside Blizzard, he works on the small team thats developing an unannounced project. Tight, high level exclusive access. Just today they received an official Xbox successor dev kit, not an early dev computer box, but a revised official-like development kit. I cannot give any more details because I was not provided any.

My source is very reliable.

Cool to hear. Now we just need PS4 confirmation.

 

[BurntPork]

That's not much better than a 5850 bro.

3-4 teraflops is what I am expecting, per b3d predictions.

3-4 teraflops? lol Is this thing gonna be the size of a mid-tower? A bit under 3 is the best we'll get.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

For people that are complaining about RAM, please read this.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/graphics-ram-4870,2428.html

The rumor is 2GB of system RAM, we don't know if there will be dedicated VRAM. I'm betting there will be. Chillax!

I doubt there will be.

MS seems to really like having a unified RAM pool. This console would buck that for something else. Though I really doubt it will only be 2 gigs of DDR3.

2 gigs of XDR or GDDR5 I could see. Maybe 3 gigs if they feel spendy.

I'm with Raistlin on this. Unified memory pool.

 

[bgassassin]

Uhhhh

Lol.

A 6990m is more powerful than a 5850 afaik

I use a 5770 which is just an under locked variant of the 5850, and my 6990m is almost double the speed

Playing Starcraft 2 I get twice the frame rate on ultra than I do on my 5770 running on high

(just a note, all games perform quite a lot better on the 6990m in my experience)

According to paper specs (underlined for emphasis), the 5850 edges out the 6990m. The 5850 has slightly higher clocks and more ALUs and TMUs. However it's also twice as hot vs the 6990m.

 

[Knoxcore]

I doubt there will be.

MS seems to really like having a unified RAM pool. This console would buck that for something else. Though I really doubt it will only be 2 gigs of DDR3.

2 gigs of XDR or GDDR5 I could see. Maybe 3 gigs if they feel spendy.

I'm with Raistlin on this. Unified memory pool.

My point is the system will likely have more than 2GB of RAM.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

My point is the system will likely have more than 2GB of RAM.

3 gigs would be the top end I could see.

2 gigs of an extremely expensive RAM is what I find likely.