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[Nonehxc]

A parody account, poking fun at the state of disrepair of a Russian nuclear sub

Funny, it was finished in 2017-2018, started trials in 2018, was supposed to be handed in 2019, but instead went to the far end of 2021, when it was commissioned into the Russian North Fleet.

And it already has leprosy.

 

[winjer]

A parody account, poking fun at the state of disrepair of a Russian nuclear sub

LOL, I wonder how long until it joins the Kursk at the bottom of the sea.

 

[Liljagare]

Yesterday, the number and intensity of Russian attacks on the frontlines increased again.

• On the Kharkiv front, there are reports that some of the Russian soldiers encircled in Vovtšansk have surrendered, but it is very difficult to estimate how many there might be. Notably, yesterday, the spokesperson for the Russian president's administration, Peskov, made a separate announcement stating that the fighting on the Kharkiv front will continue, as the Russian army has not yet succeeded in creating a buffer zone along the border areas. It seems that the main purpose of this statement is to bolster the morale of the soldiers fighting on the Kharkiv front and to give hope for the arrival of new reserves. For Russia, it is morally, communicatively, and militarily detrimental when soldiers surrender in large numbers, essentially giving up the fight. The Russian army attempted several attacks in the city of Vovtšansk but did not achieve results.
• The Russian army's attacks towards the city of Kupiansk are not active. On the Lomani front, the intensity of attacks remains high and Ukrainian forces were under stronger pressure yesterday. It is initially unclear whether Russian units managed to improve their positions or not. On the Siversk front, Russian units' attacks are active, but there are no results.
• In the vicinity of Bahmut, Russian units have not been able to regroup for new attacks, and there are no changes in the situation.
• Russian forces' attacks towards the city of Pokrovsk were very intense. The Russian military command is trying to achieve a breakthrough here. It seems that most of the attacks in recent days have been conducted mainly with infantry units, which is why progress cannot be very rapid, but they have managed to slightly improve their positions. On the southern section up to the city of Vugledar, Russian army attacks have not been successful.
• On the southern front, the Russian army continues attacks around the villages of Staromaiorske and Urožaine, but there have been no achievements following the losses.

 

[Ozriel]

Haven’t heard much about how the battle for Chasiv Yar is going. Seems it’s pretty much stalled at the moment?

 

[RJMacready73]

Fingers crossed

 

[Liljagare]

Haven’t heard much about how the battle for Chasiv Yar is going. Seems it’s pretty much stalled at the moment?

Seems static, for now.

Frontline report: The battle for Chasiv Yar hinges on an unassuming waterway - Euromaidan Press

Control of a crucial overground canal crossing could allow Russia to "establish a bridgehead and launch further attacks on Chasiv Yar," potentially threatening Ukrainian supply lines and rear positions.

euromaidanpress.com

 

[Nonehxc]

Italy to supply Ukraine with Storm Shadow missiles - media

Italy may send long-range Storm Shadow missiles to Ukraine in another military aid package. — Ukrinform.

www.ukrinform.net

Bellissimo.

 

[ResurrectedContrarian]

You’ve been rightly banned… but I bet the ‘good discourse’ you’d like to have introduced might have had something to do with defending Russia’s invasion?

Just a hunch.

No actually, and yet that's what everyone assumes since the thinking on this thread is psychotically black and white.

I never care about defending Russia. On the contrary, I don't think you need to feel better about Russia--I simply think you need to feel much worse about the role of the US and its allies on the world stage. Russia is acting evil pursuing its own agenda; the US is acting evil pursuing its agenda.

The notion that the US military establishment is motivated in even the slightest way by altruism for Ukraine--rather than a specific and calculated desire to hurts its adversary by drawing out a proxy war as long as possible, any consequences to the people on the ground be damned--would be fantasy. And treating the military propping up of proxy wars as moral crusades between good and evil -- simply because an objectively aggressive action is involved, like an invasion -- is how the whole machinery keeps running.

To be clear, I was in the streets decades ago protesting the US invasion of Afghanistan and then Iraq, and I was anti-war Leftist at the time. I'm no longer on the Left, but one reason is that practically speaking today's Left in most Western nations is one responsible for most hawkish nonsense... it's all neocons no matter how many rainbow flags are tagged onto their embassies.

In any case, the question isn't "did Russia do bad thing?" unless you're five years old. The question is "why does the West spend billions on this conflict?" and the answer is that keeping our adversary locked in a long conflict (as long as possible; quite literally all US actions are aimed at prolonging losses) is what keeps the whole machinery going, and I want no part in it.

Worst of all is the propaganda and the objectively insane people (in this very thread; frighteningly insane) who think anyone who wants the US to totally disengage from this war are "bots." That's a truly strange kind of mental illness and paranoia.

And yes, I believe that it's obvious that calling others "bots" when they differ in views -- even before they've actually stated their views -- should be bannable. It's far worse than console warring of anything else. But since apparently it won't be policed, I'll leave and mute this thread, because I won't chat somewhere in which psychos call everyone a bot and lose their minds when others disagree on their personal investment in a geopolitical conflict.

edit: and by the way, this kind of thing was not banned or even given a mild scolding, despite my not having actually expressed any specific views on Russia yet.

Fuckity bye, murderer and rapist supporter. You won't be missed.

And if you look at why I entered the thread, it was shortly after I saw that gross footage of dead soldiers etc was posted. It is ethically disgusting the way people here are acting, and how weirdly and even fetishistically they are caught up in hatred. And if anyone doesn't have the same sentiments or approve of that kind of celebration, they are branded a bot and a "rapist supporter" or whatever else, with zero consequence. That's a problem.

Moving on.

 

[Liljagare]

"Tracked garden shed"??

Atleast this latest technological mystery was captured, not destroyed, so the latest in RuSSkie technology can be studied.

 

[FunkMiller]

No actually, and yet that's what everyone assumes since the thinking on this thread is psychotically black and white.

I never care about defending Russia. On the contrary, I don't think you need to feel better about Russia--I simply think you need to feel much worse about the role of the US and its allies on the world stage. Russia is acting evil pursuing its own agenda; the US is acting evil pursuing its agenda.

The notion that the US military establishment is motivated in even the slightest way by altruism for Ukraine--rather than a specific and calculated desire to hurts its adversary by drawing out a proxy war as long as possible, any consequences to the people on the ground be damned--would be fantasy. And treating the military propping up of proxy wars as moral crusades between good and evil -- simply because an objectively aggressive action is involved, like an invasion -- is how the whole machinery keeps running.

To be clear, I was in the streets decades ago protesting the US invasion of Afghanistan and then Iraq, and I was anti-war Leftist at the time. I'm no longer on the Left, but one reason is that practically speaking today's Left in most Western nations is one responsible for most hawkish nonsense... it's all neocons no matter how many rainbow flags are tagged onto their embassies.

In any case, the question isn't "did Russia do bad thing?" unless you're five years old. The question is "why does the West spend billions on this conflict?" and the answer is that keeping our adversary locked in a long conflict (as long as possible; quite literally all US actions are aimed at prolonging losses) is what keeps the whole machinery going, and I want no part in it.

Worst of all is the propaganda and the objectively insane people (in this very thread; frighteningly insane) who think anyone who wants the US to totally disengage from this war are "bots." That's a truly strange kind of mental illness and paranoia.

And yes, I believe that it's obvious that calling others "bots" when they differ in views -- even before they've actually stated their views -- should be bannable. It's far worse than console warring of anything else. But since apparently it won't be policed, I'll leave and mute this thread, because I won't chat somewhere in which psychos call everyone a bot and lose their minds when others disagree on their personal investment in a geopolitical conflict.

edit: and by the way, this kind of thing was not banned or even given a mild scolding, despite my not having actually expressed any specific views on Russia yet.



And if you look at why I entered the thread, it was shortly after I saw that gross footage of dead soldiers etc was posted. It is ethically disgusting the way people here are acting, and how weirdly and even fetishistically they are caught up in hatred. And if anyone doesn't have the same sentiments or approve of that kind of celebration, they are branded a bot and a "rapist supporter" or whatever else, with zero consequence. That's a problem.

Moving on.

A whole lotta words just to confirm something that's massively obvious to everyone. Do please 'move on' because nobody is buying what you're trying to sell.

 

[winjer]

No actually, and yet that's what everyone assumes since the thinking on this thread is psychotically black and white.

I never care about defending Russia. On the contrary, I don't think you need to feel better about Russia--I simply think you need to feel much worse about the role of the US and its allies on the world stage. Russia is acting evil pursuing its own agenda; the US is acting evil pursuing its agenda.

The notion that the US military establishment is motivated in even the slightest way by altruism for Ukraine--rather than a specific and calculated desire to hurts its adversary by drawing out a proxy war as long as possible, any consequences to the people on the ground be damned--would be fantasy. And treating the military propping up of proxy wars as moral crusades between good and evil -- simply because an objectively aggressive action is involved, like an invasion -- is how the whole machinery keeps running.

To be clear, I was in the streets decades ago protesting the US invasion of Afghanistan and then Iraq, and I was anti-war Leftist at the time. I'm no longer on the Left, but one reason is that practically speaking today's Left in most Western nations is one responsible for most hawkish nonsense... it's all neocons no matter how many rainbow flags are tagged onto their embassies.

In any case, the question isn't "did Russia do bad thing?" unless you're five years old. The question is "why does the West spend billions on this conflict?" and the answer is that keeping our adversary locked in a long conflict (as long as possible; quite literally all US actions are aimed at prolonging losses) is what keeps the whole machinery going, and I want no part in it.

Worst of all is the propaganda and the objectively insane people (in this very thread; frighteningly insane) who think anyone who wants the US to totally disengage from this war are "bots." That's a truly strange kind of mental illness and paranoia.

And yes, I believe that it's obvious that calling others "bots" when they differ in views -- even before they've actually stated their views -- should be bannable. It's far worse than console warring of anything else. But since apparently it won't be policed, I'll leave and mute this thread, because I won't chat somewhere in which psychos call everyone a bot and lose their minds when others disagree on their personal investment in a geopolitical conflict.

edit: and by the way, this kind of thing was not banned or even given a mild scolding, despite my not having actually expressed any specific views on Russia yet.

This idea that the west is evil because it's helping Ukraine defend itself from another Russian invasion, is blatantly ridiculous.
Unlike Russia, western countries have a long tradition of helping other countries.
We even helped Russia when they were invaded by Germany. That was 11.3 Billion dollars that Russia received from the west, including weapons, fuel, boots, etc.
Today, that value is over 180 billion dollars.
And then we helped Russia and other former Soviet states, when the USSR collapsed, giving away about 28 Billion dollars in AID.

So now we are spending a few billion more to help another country. This does not make the west the bad guy. That role has always been Russia.

 

[Wildebeest]

I never care about defending Russia.

This is where we are different. I do care about defending Russia from criminal kleptocrat war criminals like the Putin regime who steal from the Russian people and then send the Russian people they impoverished to die in a Ukrainian ditch for next to nothing.

 

[IDKFA]

Ukraine war: Conscription squads send Ukrainian men into hiding

Public transport, cafes and supermarkets are now off limits to men trying to avoid being enlisted.

www.bbc.co.uk

Dark storm clouds threatened to upend Serhiy and Tania’s beach wedding. But as the couple walked down the long white staircase to greet their guests, the empty chairs signalled there was a bigger problem. In total, half of their guests were missing.

Their family and friends sent their apologies but explained that the risk of attending had been too great. What if they had been caught by one of the conscription squads, which now roam Ukraine’s streets?

Overlooking the Black Sea in the southern city of Odesa, Tania quietly murmured that she understood why her friends and family did not want to fight.

Her father was killed on the front line in October, during the attritional battle for Avdiivka, and the 24-year-old is now terrified of her new husband being conscripted. “I don’t want this to happen to my family twice,” she said.

More than two years into the war, almost everyone knows someone who has been killed. Grim news has poured out from the front, of Ukraine being vastly outnumbered and outgunned.

Over the phone, the couple’s friend of 15 years, Maksym, relayed such tales. Among the dead are around a dozen of his friends and acquaintances. “There are more than a million police officers in Ukraine, why should I fight when they are not?" he said.

Maksym, who has a young daughter and wife who is seven months pregnant, said he was sorry to miss the wedding but was afraid of being “grabbed” by conscription officers who he likened to “bandits”.

The mobilisation squads have a fearsome reputation, especially in Odesa, for pulling people off buses and from train stations and ferrying them straight to enlistment centres.

For those avoiding the draft, public transport is now off limits. So too are restaurants, supermarkets, and weekend trips to the park to play football.

At the enlistment centre around the corner, an optimistic note taped to the door notified would-be-recruits that those who had come voluntarily could skip the queues. But there were no queues. A lone man sat waiting to be seen.

When I asked whether he was there out of choice, he told me he had been “kidnapped” that morning and brought against his will.

“The officers encircled me so I couldn’t run,” he stuttered in shock. “I’m devastated."

One of the officers at the centre, Vlad, conceded that there were barely any willing volunteers these days. Under the call sign Hora, Vlad fought in some of the fiercest battles along the eastern front line in the Donbas before being struck in the head, chest, and legs by artillery shrapnel.

He was unable to mask his contempt for those who are hiding. “How can I say this without swearing?" he asked out loud.

“I don’t consider them men. What are they waiting for? If we run out of men, the enemy will come to their homes, rape their women, and kill their children." Vlad has seen the awful evidence first-hand.

More in the article.

I don't know how much of a problem this is in Ukraine. Everyone can thrown money and weapons at Ukraine, but without people willing to fight it's all for nothing. As one of the officers stated, if men aren't willing to protect their families then they've condemned them to death.

However, it's easy for me to say this from my safe position in the UK. Would I willingly fight and die for my country? Probably not. I'd probably try and get myself and my family out.

 

[Meicyn]

I don't know how much of a problem this is in Ukraine. Everyone can thrown money and weapons at Ukraine, but without people willing to fight it's all for nothing. As one of the officers stated, if men aren't willing to protect their families then they've condemned them to death.

However, it's easy for me to say this from my safe position in the UK. Would I willingly fight and die for my country? Probably not. I'd probably try and get myself and my family out.

It’s a valid line of thought. I don’t begrudge anyone for not wanting to fight. It mostly takes a certain kind of personality to do that kind of thing well. Folks react differently when faced with life/death circumstances, and sending someone you can’t reliably count on to the frontlines can be a huge detriment. Soldiering is not a life for everyone.

Folks who don’t have the drive to fight in direct combat can still help in other ways, even if it’s simply logistical or medical work. I don’t know how Ukrainians handle placement of their folks, but I imagine they need more infantry grunts than anything else right now, so…

 

[Gp1]

Funny, it was finished in 2017-2018, started trials in 2018, was supposed to be handed in 2019, but instead went to the far end of 2021, when it was commissioned into the Russian North Fleet.

And it already has leprosy.

2018 - 2024 in sea water is a LONG time to go without proper maintenance.

Try to find so photos of US Carriers at the beginning and, 7 months later, at the end of their deployment.

 

[Halo is Back]

It’s a valid line of thought. I don’t begrudge anyone for not wanting to fight. It mostly takes a certain kind of personality to do that kind of thing well. Folks react differently when faced with life/death circumstances, and sending someone you can’t reliably count on to the frontlines can be a huge detriment. Soldiering is not a life for everyone.

Folks who don’t have the drive to fight in direct combat can still help in other ways, even if it’s simply logistical or medical work. I don’t know how Ukrainians handle placement of their folks, but I imagine they need more infantry grunts than anything else right now, so…

I think most people know by now that this war is a meat grinder. A brutal and nightmare war of attrition. I'm not sure how long Ukraine can sustain this if the general population is not willing to fight any longer. I truly feel horrible for the people of Ukraine.

 

[Dr.D00p]

However, it's easy for me to say this from my safe position in the UK. Would I willingly fight and die for my country? Probably not. I'd probably try and get myself and my family out.

If you're not willing to fight for your country when under exisistential threat from a foreign invader, then you should just get out now.

...because you're not really of much use to said country, IMO.

 

[Liljagare]

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

No actually, and yet that's what everyone assumes since the thinking on this thread is psychotically black and white.

I never care about defending Russia. On the contrary, I don't think you need to feel better about Russia--I simply think you need to feel much worse about the role of the US and its allies on the world stage. Russia is acting evil pursuing its own agenda; the US is acting evil pursuing its agenda.

The notion that the US military establishment is motivated in even the slightest way by altruism for Ukraine--rather than a specific and calculated desire to hurts its adversary by drawing out a proxy war as long as possible, any consequences to the people on the ground be damned--would be fantasy. And treating the military propping up of proxy wars as moral crusades between good and evil -- simply because an objectively aggressive action is involved, like an invasion -- is how the whole machinery keeps running.

To be clear, I was in the streets decades ago protesting the US invasion of Afghanistan and then Iraq, and I was anti-war Leftist at the time. I'm no longer on the Left, but one reason is that practically speaking today's Left in most Western nations is one responsible for most hawkish nonsense... it's all neocons no matter how many rainbow flags are tagged onto their embassies.

In any case, the question isn't "did Russia do bad thing?" unless you're five years old. The question is "why does the West spend billions on this conflict?" and the answer is that keeping our adversary locked in a long conflict (as long as possible; quite literally all US actions are aimed at prolonging losses) is what keeps the whole machinery going, and I want no part in it.

Worst of all is the propaganda and the objectively insane people (in this very thread; frighteningly insane) who think anyone who wants the US to totally disengage from this war are "bots." That's a truly strange kind of mental illness and paranoia.

And yes, I believe that it's obvious that calling others "bots" when they differ in views -- even before they've actually stated their views -- should be bannable. It's far worse than console warring of anything else. But since apparently it won't be policed, I'll leave and mute this thread, because I won't chat somewhere in which psychos call everyone a bot and lose their minds when others disagree on their personal investment in a geopolitical conflict.

edit: and by the way, this kind of thing was not banned or even given a mild scolding, despite my not having actually expressed any specific views on Russia yet.



And if you look at why I entered the thread, it was shortly after I saw that gross footage of dead soldiers etc was posted. It is ethically disgusting the way people here are acting, and how weirdly and even fetishistically they are caught up in hatred. And if anyone doesn't have the same sentiments or approve of that kind of celebration, they are branded a bot and a "rapist supporter" or whatever else, with zero consequence. That's a problem.

Moving on.

Your proxy war narrative fools nobody.

How can it be a proxy war if Russia started it and Russia can end it at any moment.

And of course, conveniently, what you argue for is that for allies to drop Ukraine like a hot potato. Exactly what Russia wants. Again, fooling nobody.

Russia is engaged in a campaign of conquest and genocide - quite a bad look to argue their side.

 

[Tams]

However, it's easy for me to say this from my safe position in the UK. Would I willingly fight and die for my country? Probably not. I'd probably try and get myself and my family out.

This is an incredibly shameful and selfish position to take.

You're happy living in the UK, with all the benefits it gives you, but you're not willing to defend it?

 

[MisterFalcon]

LOL, I wonder how long until it joins the Kursk at the bottom of the sea.

While the Kazan may be a garbage quality sub, losing anechoic tiles happens to every sub ever equipped with them. There is simply nothing capable of keeping them all in place as the hull deforms when diving.

 

[IDKFA]

If you're not willing to fight for your country when under exisistential threat from a foreign invader, then you should just get out now.

...because you're not really of much use to said country, IMO.

This is an incredibly shameful and selfish position to take.

You're happy living in the UK, with all the benefits it gives you, but you're not willing to defend it?

I'm a UK citizen due to being born here to English parents. I get the benefits from living in the UK by being a citizen and tax payer, but that doesn't mean I'm obliged to fight and die for lines drawn on a map.

It also depends on the situation. My family are my number one priority. Not the nation. If I had to choose in fighting in a war in order to get my wife and kid to safety then I'd be all in, but if I had to go with them to make sure they're safe then that takes priority. Family before nation every time.

Don't be so quick to thrown shame at people who don't want to die for their country. It's very easy to say that from the comfort of your computer in your safe nation. None of us have been in that position and hopefully never will.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

Funny, it was finished in 2017-2018, started trials in 2018, was supposed to be handed in 2019, but instead went to the far end of 2021, when it was commissioned into the Russian North Fleet.

And it already has leprosy.

Of course, you can be sure someone skimmed on the side when it came to materials or overall costs.

 

[winjer]

I'm a UK citizen due to being born here to English parents. I get the benefits from living in the UK by being a citizen and tax payer, but that doesn't mean I'm obliged to fight and die for lines drawn on a map.

It also depends on the situation. My family are my number one priority. Not the nation. If I had to choose in fighting in a war in order to get my wife and kid to safety then I'd be all in, but if I had to go with them to make sure they're safe then that takes priority. Family before nation every time.

Don't be so quick to thrown shame at people who don't want to die for their country. It's very easy to say that from the comfort of your computer in your safe nation. None of us have been in that position and hopefully never will.

The part that you don't understand is that Ukraine is fighting for it's own survival, against a genocidal enemy.
This war is not just a matter of lines in the map. The lives of million of people are at risk.
Not only this is not the first time Russia invades Ukraine, but every time that Russia controls it, life turns very bad for the Ukrainians.
For example, the Holodomor was a famine caused by the Russians in 1932, as they stole all the grain from Ukraine. The result was the death of up to 5 million Ukrainians.
And even those who survived, suffered immensely because of this.

There is a reason why the countries that are giving most aid, in percentage of GDP, are countries like Poland, Lithuania, Finland, Estonia and Lituania.
Because they have also suffered a lot under Russian rule. And they know that if Ukraine falls, they will be next.

If the UK was to ever face an enemy as cruel ad sadistic as Russia, you can be sure that you and your family would suffer. Immensely.

EDIT:
Have you ever heard about the The Soviet War Memorial, in Treptower Park., Germany. It was built right after WW2.
The Russians call it the "Tomb of the Unknown Soldier." German Women call it the "Tomb of the Unknown Rapist"
Take a guess at what would happen to your wife and kids, if ever the UK, was to face Russia.

 

[The Janitor]

Worst of all is the propaganda and the objectively insane people (in this very thread; frighteningly insane) who think anyone who wants the US to totally disengage from this war are "bots." That's a truly strange kind of mental illness and paranoia.

But do you understand what happens if we "disengage" and just let Russia win? Not only are you leaving Ukrainians at the mercy of their sadistic rape army, you've rewarded Russia for their behavior and shown that they can keep getting away with it which means they're never gonna stop.
You've also made it clear to any other dictator that wants to try the same shit that it's a good idea because no one is coming to help you. So basically you're advocating for endless war.

 

[Lunarorbit]

"The notion that the US military establishment is motivated in even the slightest way by altruism for Ukraine--"

I'm as jaded as the next mother fucker but do people realize Europe is our biggest ally? People come from all over the world to live here but a majority of people in this country have roots in Europe. People act like Europeans aren't our brothers and sisters especially since WW2.

 

[IDKFA]

The part that you don't understand is that Ukraine is fighting for it's own survival, against a genocidal enemy.
This war is not just a matter of lines in the map. The lives of million of people are at risk.
Not only this is not the first time Russia invades Ukraine, but every time that Russia controls it, life turns very bad for the Ukrainians.
For example, the Holodomor was a famine caused by the Russians in 1932, as they stole all the grain from Ukraine. The result was the death of up to 5 million Ukrainians.
And even those who survived, suffered immensely because of this.

There is a reason why the countries that are giving most aid, in percentage of GDP, are countries like Poland, Lithuania, Finland, Estonia and Lituania.
Because they have also suffered a lot under Russian rule. And they know that if Ukraine falls, they will be next.

If the UK was to ever face an enemy as cruel ad sadistic as Russia, you can be sure that you and your family would suffer. Immensely.

EDIT:
Have you ever heard about the The Soviet War Memorial, in Treptower Park., Germany. It was built right after WW2.
The Russians call it the "Tomb of the Unknown Soldier." German Women call it the "Tomb of the Unknown Rapist"
Take a guess at what would happen to your wife and kids, if ever the UK, was to face Russia.

If think you're misunderstanding me.

I'm saying it's hard for me to judge Ukrainian draft dodgers when I've never been in that situation. Would I willingly give up my life before getting my family to safety? Would I become a refugee with my family? I don't know because I've not been put in that situation. I doubt any of us have.

 

[FunkMiller]

"The notion that the US military establishment is motivated in even the slightest way by altruism for Ukraine--"

I'm as jaded as the next mother fucker but do people realize Europe is our biggest ally? People come from all over the world to live here but a majority of people in this country have roots in Europe. People act like Europeans aren't our brothers and sisters especially since WW2.

The only narrative western supporters of Russia can fall back on now is the 'but, but the west are evil too' line. They simply have nothing else.

 

[Toots]

The only narrative western supporters of Russia can fall back on now is the 'but, but the west are evil too' line. They simply have nothing else.

Saying that the US only ever move on a foreign scale if the militaristic industrial complex finds financial interest in it isn't being a russian supporter. It is just a fact.
That for a while the interest of US and Europe citizen aligns with those of the US militaristic industrial complex doesn't hinder this fact.

 

[FunkMiller]

Saying that the US only ever move on a foreign scale if the militaristic industrial complex finds financial interest in it isn't being a russian supporter. It is just a fact.
That for a while the interest of US and Europe citizen aligns with those of the US militaristic industrial complex doesn't hinder this fact.

So why isn't the US intervening in every conflict across the planet? By your calculation, involvement in foreign conflict is a great earner for military industrial complex, so why isn't it pushing for more US involvement in places like Myanmar? Or Yemen? Or Pakistan? Or in Africa? Arguably, every one of those conflict zones would benefit the US financially in one way or another.

Your position is borne from an understandable cynicism in motive... but it doesn't make much sense once you zoom out to look at the geo-political realities of the whole planet.

 

[Il Comodino]

I am Italian and I have a Russian wife but I have no doubts and I am happy that my country gives everything it can to Ukraine to defend itself and send the Russians back. I love Russians, I have met them and I am sure that most are against all this but cannot in any way express it. We speak well because we grew up in democratic countries that in Russia don't even know what they are but they want freedom and peace.

I know that the USA is not perfect, it often has interests but I know when it has fought on the right side.

Today the West has only one goal, to defeat Putin and demonstrate to other stupid dictators around the world, that in the 21st century, wars of conquest or annexation are not acceptable (at least in some part of the world). I think that Putin has done too much between Georgia, Chechnya and Crimea. Thats enough! If the best effort we have to make is to give weapons to Ukraine, let's continue to do it. what will be if.... or later, we will see

 

[Toots]

So why isn't the US intervening in every conflict across the planet? By your calculation, involvement in foreign conflict is a great earner for military industrial complex, so why isn't it pushing for more US involvement in places like Myanmar? Or Yemen? Or Pakistan? Or in Africa? Arguably, every one of those conflict zones would benefit the US financially in one way or another.

Your position is borne from an understandable cynicism in motive... but it doesn't make much sense once you zoom out to look at the geo-political realities of the whole planet.

Because it doesn't make sense on a financial pov.
You know that the bombs used in conflicts, but also the companies hired to rebuild after the army levels everything, are paid by US tax payers.
Conflicts are a good way to funnel tax payers money in the hands of greedy warmongers but still you need some money to repave US roads, have a minimum social services, etc. What will the tax payer say or do if the man from Washington (feeling like Andrew Ryan right now ) use all of the taxpayers money abroad, leaving good ol US of A derelict ?

You're right tho i come from a very cynical place but ithink it does make sense, even more than being optimistic maybe. With that said, when our interest coincide with the US military industrial complex like nowdays, we must act accordingly, because it means our very existence is threatened.

All in all i did not wanted to dampen your argument that there's no good reason to support russia, or even not to support ukraine, i think the survival of the western civilisation is dependent of our resistance to putin. But i wanted to say that even if our interest align the US warmongers are still very bad people.

(also what calculations are you talking about ? )

 

[Meicyn]

Don't be so quick to thrown shame at people who don't want to die for their country. It's very easy to say that from the comfort of your computer in your safe nation. None of us have been in that position and hopefully never will.

Well, about that… As a much younger man at the time, I ended up joining the military after 9/11 happened. I genuinely believed the US was under existential threat at the time, though I am a far wiser man now than I was then. I still ended up serving for over 20 years though. So I can speak from experience: I would not want you as my battle buddy. It’s nothing personal, I just need someone I can rely on. If I can’t trust you to have my back when the critical moment comes, I don’t want you there because the decisions I would make are contingent on everyone playing their part.

It’s why again, I don’t begrudge you for your honest feedback. Not everyone is cut out for that life.

 

[IDKFA]

Well, about that… As a much younger man at the time, I ended up joining the military after 9/11 happened. I genuinely believed the US was under existential threat at the time, though I am a far wiser man now than I was then. I still ended up serving for over 20 years though. So I can speak from experience: I would not want you as my battle buddy. It’s nothing personal, I just need someone I can rely on. If I can’t trust you to have my back when the critical moment comes, I don’t want you there because the decisions I would make are contingent on everyone playing their part.

It’s why again, I don’t begrudge you for your honest feedback. Not everyone is cut out for that life.

Exactly. Not everyone is able to fight. Some aren't just cut out for it and would do more harm than good.

Also, you joined out of choice. These men are being forced into combat. This is why I can't judge men in Ukraine avoiding the constipation squads. None of us have been in that situation and hopefully will never be in a situation where we're dragged off the streets to fight in a war.

I should also add that I don't hold anything against Ukraine for doing this either. They're in a desperate situation and all the aid and weapons in the world won't help if they don't have people to fight for them.

 

[FunkMiller]

Because it doesn't make sense on a financial pov.
You know that the bombs used in conflicts, but also the companies hired to rebuild after the army levels everything, are paid by US tax payers.
Conflicts are a good way to funnel tax payers money in the hands of greedy warmongers but still you need some money to repave US roads, have a minimum social services, etc. What will the tax payer say or do if the man from Washington (feeling like Andrew Ryan right now ) use all of the taxpayers money abroad, leaving good ol US of A derelict ?

See, this is the argument that doesn't make a lick of sense.

Annual US government budget for the past two years: approx 10 trillion dollars. 45% of which is spent on defence.

Amount of US money LENT to Ukraine in last two years: 113 billion.

1% of the US annual budget for the last two years has gone to Ukraine - which they have to pay back.

And for that, the US is getting the destabilisation of one of its greatest foes, both in terms of soft and hard power. Also the destabilisation of an axis consisting of Russia, China, Iran and North Korea. Which all eventually means greater prosperity for US citizens due to the way trade and commerce functions globally.

The only way any American can think it's a bad idea to fund Ukraine is if, frankly, they're too fucking dumb to understand what's actually going on.

 

[PuppetMaster]

See, this is the argument that doesn't make a lick of sense.

Annual US government budget for the past two years: approx 10 trillion dollars. 45% of which is spent on defence.

Amount of US money LENT to Ukraine in last two years: 113 billion.

1% of the US annual budget for the last two years has gone to Ukraine - which they have to pay back.

And for that, the US is getting the destabilisation of one of its greatest foes, both in terms of soft and hard power. Also the destabilisation of an axis consisting of Russia, China, Iran and North Korea. Which all eventually means greater prosperity for US citizens due to the way trade and commerce functions globally.

The only way any American can think it's a bad idea to fund Ukraine is if, frankly, they're too fucking dumb to understand what's actually going on.

You must have a typo on this part

45% of which is spent on defence

US annual defense budget is ~800billion or approx 13% of total budget (~6Trilion)

Maybe you meant 45% of "Discretionary spending" category. But yeah this is just a fraction of the total budget. Of which most of it currently goes to social security and health care.

Buy yes your overall point that aid to Ukraine is a tiny drop of US spending is correct.

 

[FunkMiller]

You must have a typo on this part


US annual defense budget is ~800billion or approx 13% of total budget (~6Trilion)

Maybe you meant 45% of "Discretionary spending" category. But yeah this is just a fraction of the total budget. Of which most of it currently goes to social security and health care.

Buy yes your overall point that aid to Ukraine is a tiny drop of US spending is correct.

Yep. Apologies. Defence is 45% of discretionary budget. Thanks for the correction

 

[Tams]

I'm a UK citizen due to being born here to English parents. I get the benefits from living in the UK by being a citizen and tax payer, but that doesn't mean I'm obliged to fight and die for lines drawn on a map.

It also depends on the situation. My family are my number one priority. Not the nation. If I had to choose in fighting in a war in order to get my wife and kid to safety then I'd be all in, but if I had to go with them to make sure they're safe then that takes priority. Family before nation every time.

Don't be so quick to thrown shame at people who don't want to die for their country. It's very easy to say that from the comfort of your computer in your safe nation. None of us have been in that position and hopefully never will.

The nation is where you and your family live and have their lives though. It doesn't matter if it's your country of birth or adopted country. At the end of the day you have chosen (in this case to remain) a British citizen (or rather subject).

If you aren't prepared to defend that, then find somewhere else.

As for 'it's all rather easy': the same applies to you uprooting your family. It's a pointless and fruitless argument to have.

 

[IDKFA]

The nation is where you and your family live and have their lives though. It doesn't matter if it's your country of birth or adopted country. At the end of the day you have chosen (in this case to remain) a British citizen (or rather subject).

If you aren't prepared to defend that, then find somewhere else.

As for 'it's all rather easy': the same applies to you uprooting your family. It's a pointless and fruitless argument to have.

Tams, I understand where you're coming from. Defending ones country is a courageous act, and I respect people who are willing to fight and die for what they believe in. I have the upmost respect for those who currently and have fought and died for their nation. For me, my family's safety comes first. In a situation like that, my first priority would be to get them to safety. Ideally, I wouldn't be faced with that choice at all.

That's why it's hard say what I would do in that situation and why I can't judge the Ukrainian men dodging the draft.

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/russia-begins-invasion-of-ukraine.1630982/post-269317433

News - NSFW - Russia begins Invasion of Ukraine

A parody account, poking fun at the state of disrepair of a Russian nuclear sub Funny, it was finished in 2017-2018, started trials in 2018, was supposed to be handed in 2019, but instead went to the far end of 2021, when it was commissioned into the Russian North Fleet. And it already has...

www.neogaf.com

As you said, it's pointless saying what we would do as we've never have and hopefully will never have to be in that situation.

 

[Toots]

See, this is the argument that doesn't make a lick of sense.

Annual US government budget for the past two years: approx 10 trillion dollars. 45% of which is spent on defence.

Amount of US money LENT to Ukraine in last two years: 113 billion.

1% of the US annual budget for the last two years has gone to Ukraine - which they have to pay back.

And for that, the US is getting the destabilisation of one of its greatest foes, both in terms of soft and hard power. Also the destabilisation of an axis consisting of Russia, China, Iran and North Korea. Which all eventually means greater prosperity for US citizens due to the way trade and commerce functions globally.

The only way any American can think it's a bad idea to fund Ukraine is if, frankly, they're too fucking dumb to understand what's actually going on.

It's an argument that doesn't make a lick of sense for someone too fucking dumb to understand it Is the aid send to us such a toll of the US total budget that it prevent from dealing with doemstic problems ? Even with you messed up numbers you can see it's not.

You don't understand my point because nothing in your response contradicts my argument.
As long as using taxpayer money abroad doesn't prevent from dealing with domestic problems, US citizen won't care.
Also its fucking dumb to believe ukraine will repay its debt to the us, other than having military bases on its soil and giving its natural ressources. Big corporations will profit from that not the average tax payer.

 

[darth.shrimp]

Guys, there are many ways to "fight" for your country. Myself I'd probably be a huge liability on the frontlines - bad physical condition, bad eyesight, always takes the wrong decision in the heat of things - but as a pharmacy technician there are a lot of things I could do to help those who do the actual fighting. I hope.

 

[FunkMiller]

It's an argument that doesn't make a lick of sense for someone too fucking dumb to understand it Is the aid send to us such a toll of the US total budget that it prevent from dealing with doemstic problems ? Even with you messed up numbers you can see it's not.

You don't understand my point because nothing in your response contradicts my argument.
As long as using taxpayer money abroad doesn't prevent from dealing with domestic problems, US citizen won't care.
Also it’s fucking dumb to believe ukraine will repay its debt to the us, other than having military bases on its soil and giving its natural ressources. Big corporations will profit from that not the average tax payer.

As evidenced… it doesn’t stop the government dealing with domestic problems. At all.

Are you saying that any money the US sends to Ukraine, no matter if it affects domestic policies or not, is wrong?

And why wouldn’t Ukraine repay? The UK did for lend lease.

 

[winjer]

It's an argument that doesn't make a lick of sense for someone too fucking dumb to understand it Is the aid send to us such a toll of the US total budget that it prevent from dealing with doemstic problems ? Even with you messed up numbers you can see it's not.

You don't understand my point because nothing in your response contradicts my argument.
As long as using taxpayer money abroad doesn't prevent from dealing with domestic problems, US citizen won't care.
Also its fucking dumb to believe ukraine will repay its debt to the us, other than having military bases on its soil and giving its natural ressources. Big corporations will profit from that not the average tax payer.

If you want an example of a country that never paid it's AID, then it's Russia.
They got 180 Billion in Lend Lease Aid, during WW2 and never paid it back.
And then the west also gave them several Billion to help their economy when the USSR collapsed.
Next time you meet Putin, remind him that Russia still owes the USA a ton of money.

 

[Liljagare]

Really low tank numbers again, wonder what is going on there.


Russia struck again at energy sector, damage in 4 regions of Ukraine reported.

Russia struck again at energy sector, damage in 4 regions of Ukraine reported

Read more

newsukraine.rbc.ua

 

[Toots]

If you want an example of a country that never paid it's AID, then it's Russia.
They got 180 Billion in Lend Lease Aid, during WW2 and never paid it back.
And then the west also gave them several Billion to help their economy when the USSR collapsed.
Next time you meet Putin, remind him that Russia still owes the USA a ton of money.

Im used to FunkMiller hot takes, for good and bad he seems like a particularly intense fellow (i mean his name and avatar points towards Frank Miller how many clues do you need ?) but i thought you were a bit more subtle than that.
The russian exemple you give me without me asking for anything just add fuel to my fire, showing those type of "loans" aren't typically repaid... There's also plan marshall also who helped Europe tremendously after WW2. It's like Miller's budget breakdown, i fail to see where that contradicts my point. On the contrary it strenghten it.

That's why i think the real beef you have with me is elsewhere.
So i'll be clear one last time and go back to lurking. If you cannot fathom someone being pro intervention and aiding ukraine during its invasion by russia, and at the same time against the militaristic industriaul complex which profits tremendously from the situation it's because of your own narrow-mindedness, it has nothing to do with me.

 

[winjer]

Im used to FunkMiller hot takes, for good and bad he seems like a particularly intense fellow (i mean his name and avatar points towards Frank Miller how many clues do you need ?) but i thought you were a bit more subtle than that.
The russian exemple you give me without me asking for anything just add fuel to my fire, showing those type of "loans" aren't typically repaid... There's also plan marshall also who helped Europe tremendously after WW2. It's like Miller's budget breakdown, i fail to see where that contradicts my point. On the contrary it strenghten it.

That's why i think the real beef you have with me is elsewhere.
So i'll be clear one last time and go back to lurking. If you cannot fathom someone being pro intervention and aiding ukraine during its invasion by russia, and at the same time against the militaristic industriaul complex which profits tremendously from the situation it's because of your own narrow-mindedness, it has nothing to do with me.

Depends on how they are repaid. In the case of the AID money the USA lend to Russia, that was never repaid. Not only that, but there was never any secondary benefit.
On the other hand the money the USA gave to Europe and Japan, with the Dodge and Marshal plan, gave the USA a lot of secondary benefits.
For once, US companies managed to sell a lot of goods to Europe and Japan, during the rebuild process. And this created jobs and the US economy thrived.
It also created very strong alliances, that last to today. And in such a polarized world, such as the Cold War, having good friends is very important.

Even if Ukraine does not pay back these loans, we still get a new country that becomes an economic partner. Ukraine will become a country that prefers to buy US and EU goods, for a very long time.
It will also become a political and military ally. In a very important region of the world.

There is also one major reason. Ethics and moral.
For once, the USA is doing the right thing. It's supporting a country to defend itself, against a brutal invasion.
It's not often that the USA government gets to proudly say that they are supporting the good guys.

 

[FunkMiller]

Im used to FunkMiller hot takes, for good and bad he seems like a particularly intense fellow (i mean his name and avatar points towards Frank Miller how many clues do you need ?) but i thought you were a bit more subtle than that.
The russian exemple you give me without me asking for anything just add fuel to my fire, showing those type of "loans" aren't typically repaid... There's also plan marshall also who helped Europe tremendously after WW2. It's like Miller's budget breakdown, i fail to see where that contradicts my point. On the contrary it strenghten it.

That's why i think the real beef you have with me is elsewhere.
So i'll be clear one last time and go back to lurking. If you cannot fathom someone being pro intervention and aiding ukraine during its invasion by russia, and at the same time against the militaristic industriaul complex which profits tremendously from the situation it's because of your own narrow-mindedness, it has nothing to do with me.

When a person decides to resort to insults (however veiled they may be), instead of responding the question posed, then that person can safely go into the ignore bucket. You clearly have an agenda to denigrate anything to do with the defence of Ukraine, so not really much point in continuing to engage.

 

[FunkMiller]

Tams, I understand where you're coming from. Defending ones country is a courageous act, and I respect people who are willing to fight and die for what they believe in. I have the upmost respect for those who currently and have fought and died for their nation. For me, my family's safety comes first. In a situation like that, my first priority would be to get them to safety. Ideally, I wouldn't be faced with that choice at all.

That's why it's hard say what I would do in that situation and why I can't judge the Ukrainian men dodging the draft.

As you said, it's pointless saying what we would do as we've never have and hopefully will never have to be in that situation.

I think, as with anything really, it's the context that matters. As you say, it's your family's safety that matters, which rather suggests that if going to war was the only way to keep your family safe, you'd do it.

 

[IDKFA]

I think, as with anything really, it's the context that matters. As you say, it's your family's safety that matters, which rather suggests that if going to war was the only way to keep your family safe, you'd do it.

100%. If going into battle was the only way to keep my family safe then I'd be in the front line without hesitation. If there was a way for me to get my family to safety then I'd do that as well.

Regarding the BBC report, there is a man who doesn't leave the house without his young daughter as he knows the conscription squads can't touch him if he's with her. Is he a coward? Who am I to judge unless I've been in that situation. It could just be the two of them and in his mind staying with his daughter is safeguarding her safety.

I also can't blame Ukraine for using conscription squads. All the aid and weapons is for nothing if you don't have people fighting the Russian invasion. In the same report an officer called Vald says he thinks the guys avoiding the draft are less then men because the alternative is Russia killing their families. A valid point.

I feel for every Ukrainian. It's such a fucked up situation and I can never imagine what that country is going through.

 

[Toots]

When a person decides to resort to insults (however veiled they may be), instead of responding the question posed, then that person can safely go into the ignore bucket. You clearly have an agenda to denigrate anything to do with the defence of Ukraine, so not really much point in continuing to engage.

Are you talking about yourself ? Let me remind you of your post previous to any "insult" of mine (it's not insulting to tell someone he has burning red hot takes and loves frank miller is it ?)

they're too fucking dumb to understand what's actually going on.

But what is really crazy in your holier-than-thou response, is that you missed the time i really disrespected you

It's an argument that doesn't make a lick of sense for someone too fucking dumb to understand it

Did you really not understand it was aimed at you ? I mean it is your own words...

Also your response proves once again you did not understand my point or even read my posts :

As evidenced… it doesn’t stop the government dealing with domestic problems. At all.

That precisely is why US can send as much money to Ukraine as the men in congress and their corporate overlords want.

And then you start questioning my patriotism or something in the oh so subtle binary way every problem is treated nowdays, not even seeing that i already responded on that front

Are you saying that any money the US sends to Ukraine, no matter if it affects domestic policies or not, is wrong?

Saying that the US only ever move on a foreign scale if the militaristic industrial complex finds financial interest in it isn't being a russian supporter. It is just a fact.
That for a while the interest of US and Europe citizen aligns with those of the US militaristic industrial complex doesn't hinder this fact.

All in all i did not wanted to dampen your argument that there's no good reason to support russia, or even not to support ukraine, i think the survival of the western civilisation is dependent of our resistance to putin. But i wanted to say that even if our interest align the US warmongers are still very bad people.

(Both my posts having been posted before yours)

Then you end it with your moronic anathema

You clearly have an agenda to denigrate anything to do with the defence of Ukraine, so not really much point in continuing to engage.

Thats the dumbest thing you said in the whole exchange and i dare you to find one argument in favor of this outlandish take (just so you read my posts carefully and finally understand them).

There is also one major reason. Ethics and moral.
For once, the USA is doing the right thing. It's supporting a country to defend itself, against a brutal invasion.
It's not often that the USA government gets to proudly say that they are supporting the good guys.

I totally agree with you and i believe i said it clearly (putting it once again)

there's no good reason to support russia, or even not to support ukraine, i think the survival of the western civilisation is dependent of our resistance to putin. But i wanted to say that even if our interest align the US warmongers are still very bad people.

Anyway going back to lurking, for real this time.