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[RiskyChris]

The idea of Cameron knocking up a Navi, besides hilarious, is at least as entertaining as Avatar. People get too hung up on Cohen IMO.

 

[Masaki_]

He made the highest grossing move ever made and became king of the movie world, took a decade off, and did it all over again in his next movie.

No. Those fucking sheep don't understand cinema like I do. Those idiots, if I wanted I could've made as much money off of the mindless masses as he did. I just don't do it because I'm a nice guy and I want to open their eyes. One day they'll understand my indie genius, when I free them from the oppression of mainstream entertainment.

 

[Anticitizen One]

that skit idea sounds disgusting. I don't blame cameron.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Joke/skit/whatever was kind of stupid anyway, unless Cohen was going to dryhump Cameron at some point.

Spoiler

Is it okay if I say that Avatar was a terrible movie again?

 

[fortified_concept]

I believe the visual element to be most important (eg. a movie shot on film will always be more desirable than being shot on home video unless, of course, relevant to the story/ approach), but that is not the only criteria by which I judge a film. A perfect film for me will have both style and substance; however, if a film has a lot of substance than the need for style is not as important, and if the film does not have much substance, then it will need a lot of style.

Avatar on paper has little substance, but the style and the spectacle of the film, unlike anything I had seen before (the dragon ride, the fluorescent scenes, the original creature designs, the final battle etc) made up for its shortcomings in the substance department to make it a great film (though obviously not perfect).

Avatar is a film designed to create spectacle and to criticise it wholly on plot and characterisation is shortsighted. As an action film, plot and character are not as important as the way the film is told, and its setpieces. Obviously strong plot and characters are preferable, but if not truly awful, then strong style can overcome this weakness.

As for The Man From Earth, I have not seen the film, but I am sure that it does not try to be a spectacle in the same way Avatar does; it would therefore be stupid for me to criticise it wholly based on its lack of spectacle. To make up for this, I am sure that it has an engaging story and original and interesting plot, and therefore I will not miss the lack of spectacle.

I think we agree on one thing then, that the only "character" in the movie that had character was the planet. Well for me that wasn't nearly enough because the movie tried and failed at everything else, for you it was.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I think Cameron does have a sense of humor. After all he did do the Laser Cats skit for Saturday Night Live - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpNv6qto6So that made fun of Aliens, Terminator and Avatar.

Also contrary to the OP, he's got a very self-depreciating sense of humor.

 

[gdt]

Cameron is fine with it:

At least one person wouldn't mind an Avatar spoof at the Academy Awards this Sunday.

James Cameron.

The Oscar-nominated director told me this exclusively tonight at the Global Green party at Avalon. Cameron said he wasn't aware that a proposed Avatar sketch involving Ben Stiller and Sacha Baron Cohen had been cut from the show, presumably to avoid upsetting the director.

"I don't know anything about that...I don't produce the Oscars. If they want to poke fun at Avatar Sunday, that's OK by me," said Cameron, "I'm sure we'll laugh."

As far as he's concerned, he told me, jokes are just another element of Hollywood's big night. And he's fine with it.

"The Oscars are a celebration of movies...even the gaffes and out-of-bounds stuff are all part of the fun."

So he's good with it. Sacha, are you still willing?

http://www.eonline.com/uberblog/hwood_party_girl/b170072_james_cameron_oscars_go_ahead_make_fun.html

 

[Chinner]

first time i read that i mistook "gaffes" for "gaffers"

 

[VeryGooster]

No. Those fucking sheep don't understand cinema like I do. Those idiots, if I wanted I could've made as much money off of the mindless masses as he did. I just don't do it because I'm a nice guy and I want to open their eyes. One day they'll understand my indie genius, when I free them from the oppression of mainstream entertainment.

I can't tell at all if this is a serious post or not. I read like three pages of this thread.

 

[shintoki]

So why are people hating on Cameron again?

I don't really think people are hating on Cameron as much as the fanbase which is stroking the Avatar rod currently. The same ones who are in every weekly Box Office thread and using sales as an argument for quality(Which is more opinion than anything else). Like this

He made the highest grossing move ever made and became king of the movie world, took a decade off, and did it all over again in his next movie.

Anyways, It sounded like it was a shitty skit and someone is trying to make a stir since they didn't want it.

 

[Vyer]

Cameron has managed to convince people that character and story aren't important as long as they are "enchanted" or they are seeing a spectacle. He made his film seem like a once in a lifetime event, equivalent to Star Wars or the King Kong or whatever, so now everyone has seen the movie and wants so badly to believe they are a part of a moment, that they are willing to drop their standards like a rock tied around their neck. Completely forgetting or purposely ignoring that every great film they try to put dreck next to lives on not solely through visuals but by excelling in many areas instead of one.

Basically he bullshitted people with special effects, and people wanted to be bullshitted.

This is actually pretty dead on, in terms of the event/spectacle angle.

Except for the last sentence.

I don't think people were 'bullshitted' to, nor do they necessarily want it to be. Some folks just are willing to put more weight (in this case a lot more weight) on the visual aspects. I don't necessarily think there's anything wrong with that. (for some).

 

[avatar299]

Look, I love movies. I can promise you, that I did not lie to myself about AVATAR being a good movie just so I can be apart of some "moment". If that was true, why didn't I and many others like me did it with other movies?

You think you got it all figured out, but really you don't know shit. It's not some grand conspiracy to be a part of some "moment". It truly is groundbreaking. The seamless CGI world really feels real. Combined with the 3D and it made for some spectacular moments that I have never witness before. You can't deny that the directing is just absolutely amazing. You and others think that just because it's some "action" flick puts it on some scale lower than stuff like Citizen Kane and Up In the Air. But you know what? It's really fuckin hard to direct action. In fact, Tarantino once said that if you can direct action then you can direct anything. Cameron is in my opinion, the master of directing action. His sense of scale, space, and pacing during his action scenes are unmatched. That's a lot of the reasons why AVATAR is so loved. It's a combination of a timeless story, mixed with characters people can understand, a sense of wonderment of exploring a foreign planet in detail, mixed with some of the best directed action ever put to film and it's your fault if you can't find reasons why people would love it.

1. i never said anyone who likes Avatar doesn't like movies.

2. I never said i have anything figured out. This is my opinion.

3. Didn't say it was a conspiracy. I said i think people want Avatar to be more than what it is

I can deny the directing was great. it wasn't that great. Great vista shots and the like, but the characters weren't very engaging in how they interacted and most of the time it just feel back to the usual 3/4th angle shots and close ups for emotion. The action scenes were good, but no greater than any more action movies. In fact i would say that many movies have better action scenes because the script built to the moment. Dark knight for example. hell the Incredibles had a more wide range of emotions in their action scenes than Avatar. The last 30 mins of Avatar were incredibly predictable, and no flying dragons doesn't make them better.

it's funny that you mention Taratino, since really his most respected movies tend to be the ones that focus on character and plot than action. Pulp Fiction, Resoiver Dogs, Jackie brown have almost 0 action scenes compared to Avatar yet i would bet to a lot of people the scenes of violence in those movies have a larger payoff in the end because you actually cared what happened to people. You were surprised even though sometimes it was easy to forsee the climax. (RD)

The story isn't timeless, it's cliche. The characters are stereotypes, hence why they are easy to understand

Spoiler

You have seen them a thousand times

and a averagely directed movie. i will give you the excitement of seeing a foreign planet, but like I said doing one thing well doesn't make you a great film. It makes you avearge.

Edit: As for why people didn't act this way about other movies, thats simple. No other moview has ever gotten this level of hype. no other movie was expected to launch a new standard, sink or swim a studio, etc etc. The stakes were high, the fans were rabid

Spoiler

talking about suicidal fans here

and comparisons to star wars were being talked about months before the movie released.

 

[TheGreatDave]

1. i never said anyone who likes Avatar doesn't like movies.

2. I never said i have anything figured out. This is my opinion.

3. Didn't say it was a conspiracy. I said i think people want Avatar to be more than what it is

I can deny the directing was great. it wasn't that great. Great vista shots and the like, but the characters weren't very engaging in how they interacted and most of the time it just feel back to the usual 3/4th angle shots and close ups for emotion. The action scenes were good, but no greater than any more action movies. In fact i would say that many movies have better action scenes because the script built to the moment. Dark knight for example. hell the Incredibles had a more wide range of emotions in their action scenes than Avatar. The last 30 mins of Avatar were incredibly predictable, and no flying dragons doesn't make them better.

it's funny that you mention Taratino, since really his most respected movies tend to be the ones that focus on character and plot than action. Pulp Fiction, Resoiver Dogs, Jackie brown have almost 0 action scenes compared to Avatar yet i would bet to a lot of people the scenes of violence in those movies have a larger payoff in the end because you actually cared what happened to people. You were surprised even though sometimes it was easy to forsee the climax. (RD)

The story isn't timeless, it's cliche. The characters are stereotypes, hence why they are easy to understand

Spoiler

You have seen them a thousand times

and a averagely directed movie. i will give you the excitement of seeing a foreign planet, but like I said doing one thing well doesn't make you a great film. It makes you avearge.

Edit: As for why people didn't act this way about other movies, thats simple. No other moview has ever gotten this level of hype. no other movie was expected to launch a new standard, sink or swim a studio, etc etc. The stakes were high, the fans were rabid

Spoiler

talking about suicidal fans here

and comparisons to star wars were being talked about months before the movie released.

10/10.

 

[Escape Goat]

This mission just got a whole lot more impossible.

 

[Dead]

I like how only now that its so successful was the movie hyped, yet when it was coming out, all you could read was "wheres the hype?" "No one is going to care, the marketing sucks, the real world isn't hyped at all"

 

[Neuromancer]

Assy

This could have been spectacular.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Stupid. Another reason to hate Avatar

 

[JDeluis]

1. i never said anyone who likes Avatar doesn't like movies.

2. I never said i have anything figured out. This is my opinion.

3. Didn't say it was a conspiracy. I said i think people want Avatar to be more than what it is

I can deny the directing was great. it wasn't that great. Great vista shots and the like, but the characters weren't very engaging in how they interacted and most of the time it just feel back to the usual 3/4th angle shots and close ups for emotion. The action scenes were good, but no greater than any more action movies. In fact i would say that many movies have better action scenes because the script built to the moment. Dark knight for example. hell the Incredibles had a more wide range of emotions in their action scenes than Avatar. The last 30 mins of Avatar were incredibly predictable, and no flying dragons doesn't make them better.

it's funny that you mention Taratino, since really his most respected movies tend to be the ones that focus on character and plot than action. Pulp Fiction, Resoiver Dogs, Jackie brown have almost 0 action scenes compared to Avatar yet i would bet to a lot of people the scenes of violence in those movies have a larger payoff in the end because you actually cared what happened to people. You were surprised even though sometimes it was easy to forsee the climax. (RD)

The story isn't timeless, it's cliche. The characters are stereotypes, hence why they are easy to understand

Spoiler

You have seen them a thousand times

and a averagely directed movie. i will give you the excitement of seeing a foreign planet, but like I said doing one thing well doesn't make you a great film. It makes you avearge.

Edit: As for why people didn't act this way about other movies, thats simple. No other moview has ever gotten this level of hype. no other movie was expected to launch a new standard, sink or swim a studio, etc etc. The stakes were high, the fans were rabid

Spoiler

talking about suicidal fans here

and comparisons to star wars were being talked about months before the movie released.

 

[Dead]

Stupid. Another reason to hate Avatar

losing out on what sounds like an awful skit from the increasingly unfunny Sacha Baron Cohen?

Sounds like good news to me.

 

[Ollie Pooch]

1. i never said anyone who likes Avatar doesn't like movies.

2. I never said i have anything figured out. This is my opinion.

3. Didn't say it was a conspiracy. I said i think people want Avatar to be more than what it is
<more>

eugh. you're still subtly (or none-too-subtly) suggesting that people were subconsciously hoodwinked into enjoying this movie or something.

i think Avatar is a great film, not because of what type of shots it uses, or how it uses closeups for emotion, or any shit like that. it has some clunky lines, and one particularly horrible scene - but it was the first movie in ages that made me feel like i was watching a movie as a kid again (probably since 'spirited away'). the pure sense of escapism and adventure is like nothing i've seen in a long time.

and yes, dark knight had amazing action scenes, and no doubt with more payoff than avatar. so what? i love both movies. i don't know why you're comparing them.

i'm not sure why i'm even defending it - but it comes up time and again from the people that didn't like it - the suggestion that people have been tricked by something they aren't aware of in their enjoyment of this film; or even that it's a bad thing that so many enjoy it.

also, i don't remember any star wars comparisons before the film was released - only the line about it from roger ebert's review.

 

[Instro]

Cameron is fine with it:



http://www.eonline.com/uberblog/hwood_party_girl/b170072_james_cameron_oscars_go_ahead_make_fun.html

Figured as much, I think saying Cameron would be offended was a cover for the real reason, whether it be that the skit sucked, or whatever else.

 

[Dead]

eugh. you're still subtly (or none-too-subtly) suggesting that people were subconsciously hoodwinked into enjoying this movie or something.

i think Avatar is a great film, not because of what type of shots it uses, or how it uses closeups for emotion, or any shit like that. it has some clunky lines, and one particularly horrible scene - but it was the first movie in ages that made me feel like i was watching a movie as a kid again (probably since 'spirited away'). the pure sense of escapism and adventure is like nothing i've seen in a long time.

and yes, dark knight had amazing action scenes, and no doubt with more payoff than avatar. so what? i love both movies. i don't know why you're comparing them.

i'm not sure why i'm even defending it - but it comes up time and again from the people that didn't like it - the suggestion that people have been tricked by something they aren't aware of in their enjoyment of this film; or even that it's a bad thing that so many enjoy it.

also, i don't remember any star wars comparisons before the film was released - only the line about it from roger ebert's review.

just let it go. The pathetic, holier than though, superiority complex some get from constantly trashing the movie and anyone who enjoyed it is funny more than anything else.

 

[Ollie Pooch]

just let it go. The pathetic, holier than though, superiority complex some get from constantly trashing the movie and anyone who enjoyed it is funny more than anything else.

i dunno what it is, it's like when i get to work and have nothing to do i feel like debating pointless things. but yeah, it's fun

 

[Big One]

1. i never said anyone who likes Avatar doesn't like movies.

2. I never said i have anything figured out. This is my opinion.

3. Didn't say it was a conspiracy. I said i think people want Avatar to be more than what it is

I can deny the directing was great. it wasn't that great. Great vista shots and the like, but the characters weren't very engaging in how they interacted and most of the time it just feel back to the usual 3/4th angle shots and close ups for emotion. The action scenes were good, but no greater than any more action movies. In fact i would say that many movies have better action scenes because the script built to the moment. Dark knight for example. hell the Incredibles had a more wide range of emotions in their action scenes than Avatar. The last 30 mins of Avatar were incredibly predictable, and no flying dragons doesn't make them better.

it's funny that you mention Taratino, since really his most respected movies tend to be the ones that focus on character and plot than action. Pulp Fiction, Resoiver Dogs, Jackie brown have almost 0 action scenes compared to Avatar yet i would bet to a lot of people the scenes of violence in those movies have a larger payoff in the end because you actually cared what happened to people. You were surprised even though sometimes it was easy to forsee the climax. (RD)

The story isn't timeless, it's cliche. The characters are stereotypes, hence why they are easy to understand

Spoiler

You have seen them a thousand times

and a averagely directed movie. i will give you the excitement of seeing a foreign planet, but like I said doing one thing well doesn't make you a great film. It makes you avearge.

Edit: As for why people didn't act this way about other movies, thats simple. No other moview has ever gotten this level of hype. no other movie was expected to launch a new standard, sink or swim a studio, etc etc. The stakes were high, the fans were rabid

Spoiler

talking about suicidal fans here

and comparisons to star wars were being talked about months before the movie released.

Really good post, I still think Avatar is a good film though. Just a 6/10 quality film but that doesn't mean it's bad, just underpreformed in quality. I actually think the film deserves an extended cut because there's so much stuff in it that felt like it was missing from the film version. There's plenty of "What?" moments that make no sense like it's a sequel to a movie never made.

 

[Osietra]

I'm pretty sure Cameron clashed with Scientologits so he's someone I'd have a drink with.

 

[Count Dookkake]

Another stupid reason to hate Avatar

fixed

 

[Salsa]

1. i never said anyone who likes Avatar doesn't like movies.

2. I never said i have anything figured out. This is my opinion.

3. Didn't say it was a conspiracy. I said i think people want Avatar to be more than what it is

I can deny the directing was great. it wasn't that great. Great vista shots and the like, but the characters weren't very engaging in how they interacted and most of the time it just feel back to the usual 3/4th angle shots and close ups for emotion. The action scenes were good, but no greater than any more action movies. In fact i would say that many movies have better action scenes because the script built to the moment. Dark knight for example. hell the Incredibles had a more wide range of emotions in their action scenes than Avatar. The last 30 mins of Avatar were incredibly predictable, and no flying dragons doesn't make them better.

it's funny that you mention Taratino, since really his most respected movies tend to be the ones that focus on character and plot than action. Pulp Fiction, Resoiver Dogs, Jackie brown have almost 0 action scenes compared to Avatar yet i would bet to a lot of people the scenes of violence in those movies have a larger payoff in the end because you actually cared what happened to people. You were surprised even though sometimes it was easy to forsee the climax. (RD)

The story isn't timeless, it's cliche. The characters are stereotypes, hence why they are easy to understand

Spoiler

You have seen them a thousand times

and a averagely directed movie. i will give you the excitement of seeing a foreign planet, but like I said doing one thing well doesn't make you a great film. It makes you avearge.

Edit: As for why people didn't act this way about other movies, thats simple. No other moview has ever gotten this level of hype. no other movie was expected to launch a new standard, sink or swim a studio, etc etc. The stakes were high, the fans were rabid

Spoiler

talking about suicidal fans here

and comparisons to star wars were being talked about months before the movie released.

Well done sir.

 

[CENOBITE]

A) Cameron thinks too highly of himself? Really? Is that even possible?

B) I don't get it, Cameron's always been up for a good joke as far as I can tell...

My thoughts exactly. If Cameron's "LASER CATS" and the Avatar skit on Saturday Night Live doesn't show he's cool with poking fun at himself, I don't know what is!

 

[Count Dookkake]

My thoughts exactly. If Cameron's "LASER CATS" and the Avatar skit on Saturday Night Live doesn't show he's cool with poking fun at himself, I don't know what is!

Don't forget Aquaman.

 

[Masaki_]

I can deny the directing was great. it wasn't that great.

Understatement of the fucking year. Avatar is the culmination of all the years of experience Cameron has in the industry. Not counting which what we actually see on the screen, which is nothing short of excellent, his work behind the scenes displays the kind of expertise you won't get from any other director on this planet. Not the mention the creative decisions regarding 3D

Spoiler

(Oh, wait, it's just a gimmick. Silly me!)

, besides all the hardships you can expect a director will have to handle, all while achieving major technological breakthroughs.

You could almost forgive him and his crew if they delivered only average cinemaphotography. Yet they didn't. They deliver top-notch directing that only a hardened veteran Cameron can be expected to provide on a regular basis and under such pressure.

Great vista shots and the like, but the characters weren't very engaging in how they interacted and most of the time it just feel back to the usual 3/4th angle shots and close ups for emotion. The action scenes were good, but no greater than any more action movies. In fact i would say that many movies have better action scenes because the script built to the moment. Dark knight for example. hell the Incredibles had a more wide range of emotions in their action scenes than Avatar. The last 30 mins of Avatar were incredibly predictable, and no flying dragons doesn't make them better.

This is where you pretend you have it all figured out when you don't. Again.

I watch movies for cheap plot twists.

You sure do.

The story isn't timeless, it's cliche.

Oh, look, it's that argument again. The one I discussed previously in one of my posts. You can view it here.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=20095469&postcount=109

hurrr

Hey, guys, remember when people used to claim Avatar would fail precisely because of the hype? Well, now it's the reason for its success. Goddamn sheeple.

 

[avatar299]

I like how only now that its so successful was the movie hyped, yet when it was coming out, all you could read was "wheres the hype?" "No one is going to care, the marketing sucks, the real world isn't hyped at all"

Did you miss the the 50 threads Scullibundo made. People were criticizing the movie not recieveing mainstream advertising as early as other big releases. Not that it wasn't hyped.

eugh. you're still subtly (or none-too-subtly) suggesting that people were subconsciously hoodwinked into enjoying this movie or something.

i think Avatar is a great film, not because of what type of shots it uses, or how it uses closeups for emotion, or any shit like that. it has some clunky lines, and one particularly horrible scene - but it was the first movie in ages that made me feel like i was watching a movie as a kid again (probably since 'spirited away'). the pure sense of escapism and adventure is like nothing i've seen in a long time.

and yes, dark knight had amazing action scenes, and no doubt with more payoff than avatar. so what? i love both movies. i don't know why you're comparing them.

i'm not sure why i'm even defending it - but it comes up time and again from the people that didn't like it - the suggestion that people have been tricked by something they aren't aware of in their enjoyment of this film; or even that it's a bad thing that so many enjoy it.

also, i don't remember any star wars comparisons before the film was released - only the line about it from roger ebert's review.

If you think it's great than fine. What pisses me off is this idea that no one can criticize Avatar because they weren't enchanted or some nonsense.

Understatement of the fucking year. Avatar is the culmination of all the years of experience Cameron has in the industry. Not counting which what we actually see on the screen, which is nothing short of excellent, his work behind the scenes displays the kind of expertise you won't get from any other director on this planet. Not the mention the creative decisions regarding 3D

Spoiler

(Oh, wait, it's just a gimmick. Silly me!)

, besides all the hardships you can expect a director will have to handle, all while achieving major technological breakthroughs.

You could almost forgive him and his crew if they delivered only average cinemaphotography. Yet they didn't. They deliver top-notch directing that only a hardened veteran Cameron can be expected to provide on a regular basis and under such pressure.



This is where you pretend you have it all figured out when you don't. Again.







Oh, look, it's that argument again. The one I discussed previously in one of my posts. You can view it here.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=20095469&postcount=109
.

You compared Avatar story and it's characters to Shakespeare? Few if any of Shakespeare characters were cliche. Many of them developed during the play, grew over an arc and made understandable even if wild and rash decisions like othello and Juliet.

You see Julls. This is what i'm talking about. How can i take this seriously?

You keep on praising Cameron for his great directing and yet you can't name a single scene. Again, 3/4th shots and close up for emotions. What was on the screen wasn't great directing. Hell if anything the animation directors deserve an award more than him.

oh wait i forgot there was no animation in Avatar. James Cameron said so.

 

[Masaki_]

If you think it's great than fine. What pisses me off is this idea that no one can criticize Avatar because they weren't enchanted or some nonsense.

It pisses you off that your poorly thought out "criticism" is met with actual, educated arguments? Then I guess I should just stop wasting my time and ignore you. But before that:

You compared Avatar story and it's characters to Shakespeare? Few if any of Shakespeare characters were cliche.

I said Avatar tells a timeless story. Some people who don't know better call it cliché and cite Dances with Wolves and Pocahontas as examples of a similar plot done before. Yep, two instances of comparable stories told twice in recent American mainstream cinema make the third "cliché". Definitely.

Ultimately, "cliché", in this case and in many others, is just stock insult that fails to have any real meaning.

Many of them developed during the play, grew over an arc and made understandable even if wild and rash decisions like othello and Juliet.

It puzzles me that you can see the character development in anything but Avatar. Your vague criticism, such as:

You keep on praising Cameron for his great directing and yet you can't name a single scene. Again, 3/4th shots and close up for emotions. What was on the screen wasn't great directing. Hell if anything the animation directors deserve an award more than him.

Just looks to me like an attempt to hide the real reason why you and others didn't like Avatar, which is:

It appeals to our taste for the fantastic. That taste is usually found in children, hence it's considered childish and undesirable in adults. Well, some people, you included, lost that taste. That's why the movie could never be more than a sappy love story to you.

And for the record, I didn't compare Avatar to Shakespeare in terms of quality, so don't try to use that against me.

You see Julls. This is what i'm talking about. How can i take this seriously?

You keep on praising Cameron for his great directing and yet you can't name a single scene. Again, 3/4th shots and close up for emotions. What was on the screen wasn't great directing. Hell if anything the animation directors deserve an award more than him.

oh wait i forgot there was no animation in Avatar. James Cameron said so.

Good one, man!