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SAG-AFTRA (union repping 25% of VAs) goes on strike against video game companies
- Thread starter orthodoxy1095
- Start date
lol, dude Im talking about a hypothetical situation here, I understand pretty clear what this strike means and affects
It's also ridiculous that during Mocap Sessions there is no stunt Cordinator that's just unnecessary hazard for your workplace
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
And wouldn't that level of vertical integration get dangerously close to violating anti-trust laws defined by United States v. Paramount Pictures, Inc. anyway?
or making you mo cap for no extra pay. or using your face for no extra pay.
I'm not exactly convinced residuals should be a thing (especially considering they aren't like the TV/movie industry - most titles stop selling after ~5 years and are pulled/delisted due to licensing, so it's not a good source of income), but definitely the extra work needs extra pay 100% needs addressing.
which is what they are asking for - to be properly compensated for the work they put in.
Or do you think that voice actors aren't putting in the work?
ratcliffja
Member
We don't have a union. Thankfully, I work for a great studio, but overall industry conditions are still awful in a lot of ways. It won't change anytime soon though, because we're still mostly a bunch of relatively passive nerds who are just happy that we're being paid to work on games and there's thousands of college graduates every year to take our place should we try to strike.
Edit: With that said, I'm all for voice and mocap actors getting their due. Good luck to them.
Tech industry in general seems to be in desperate need of unionization, then again most jobs could, but especially those in the VFX and entertainment sides of things. Even the biggest and most successful games are not free of all sorts of stories about crunch time, mismanagement and other horror stories.
It is unfortunate that SAG-AFTRA is only a small portion of VAs. And the fact that many big name VAs aren't in any union at all. The fuck you got mine mentality is strong everywhere sadly, but seems particularly problematic in the tech and games industries.
It is unfortunate that SAG-AFTRA is only a small portion of VAs. And the fact that many big name VAs aren't in any union at all. The fuck you got mine mentality is strong everywhere sadly, but seems particularly problematic in the tech and games industries.
Companies are offering a pay increase up-front. SAG doesn't want that. It wants residuals which boils down to getting paid multiple times for the same work.
If it was just about wanting more pay, SAG wouldn't be demanding residuals.
That said, the majority of voice acting across video games is pretty mediocre. Yes, there are a handful of standout performances, but the better jobs are usually done by the no-name actors and actresses.
Big names in games (aka those that would be covered by SAG) are usually a lot less impressive.
I do think that some of the disconnect on the SAG side is that, at least in films, SAG has done a great job in the past of making films all about the actors. People didn't go see the latest Paramount film. They went to go see the latest Tom Cruise film.
The teams behind the tech were just support roles. They were paid for their work and they went on their way.
With games, that's flipped. Voice actors are just support roles. They are not headliners, but SAG wants to treat them like they are headliners.
Indeed. The video game industry is simply fundamentally different from Hollywood. I'm not sure giving VA residuals makes much sense here.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I don't think that's really accurate. For certain games, sure it's not very important. For the Uncharted 4s, The Witcher 3s, Mass Effects and Mafia 3s of the world, it's undeniably important, if not a core component. You can't do heavy narrative and character exposition like many of those games without good performances.
Well that's the whole question isn't it? What's fair compensation? Hazard pay obviously makes sense. Better work conditions in general makes more sense. I don't know that asking for residual is necessarily as much of a slam-dunk dispute though.
CambriaRising
Member
Looks like we are gonna see some new voice talent soon.
Seems,for now, this dispute is/was about terminology.
SAG-AFTRA may be trying to pave the road for the future...or they may just be trying to save face in these negotiations.
SAG-AFTRA may be trying to pave the road for the future...or they may just be trying to save face in these negotiations.
the impression i get is that most developers have a libertarian mentality and ideologically are ok with being horribly exploited by management
Imbarkus
As Sartre noted in his contemplation on Hell in No Exit, the true horror is other members.
thelooseteeth
Member
Voice acting in games is almost always lukewarm or terrible, so whatevs.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Arguably the issue is that we're never going to progress beyond medicotrity if VA's conditions aren't improved.
The demand for residuals is ridiculous, and having the break-off point is too, because a lot of AAA games don't break even until 2.5 or 3 million copies sold. Even developers who get paid bonuses when a game delivers good profits would not be seeing an extra penny if the game didn't break even, but mocap/voice actors would?
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Unfortunately not seeing an industry largely libertarian in thought if not actual political orientation going for this
So let's make absolutely sure to keep it low quality or worse by refusing to improve working conditions right
So let's make absolutely sure to keep it low quality or worse by refusing to improve working conditions right
d00d3n
Member
Yeah, look where 20 years of programmers, art directors and game directors not getting residuals have gotten us.
developers should organize and negotiate for residuals too
and having a poor business model is not a good excuse for not paying your labor
styl3s
Member
So you are saying your friend could of done Troy Bakers role in Last of Us and it would been equally as impactful?
A lot of people care about voice actors if they didn't getting Hamil and Conroy for the Arkham games wouldn't of been such a huge deal to people and spoiler alert IT WAS.
More non-SAG voice actors and actresses. There are quite a lot of potential VAs out there. Hate to say it, but as much as I can see the logic behind getting residuals, there's no way they can get them.
Pyrrhus
Member
Troy Baker's not union is he? So he could still have done that role.
Personally I think VAs probably need to get in line behind the developers when it comes to the issue of royalties.
I work for a game developer and those who enter a union are quietly pushed out. It's not a question about "organizing and negotiate for residuals."
QuantumBro
Banned
By how will developers live out their failed dreams of working in a Hollywood movie studio now?
The lack of unionization is one of the reasons why I decided to back out of entering the games industry as a junior programmer. It's just shit.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
It's always a treat to hear how people feel about your work
StereoVsn
Gold Member
I fully agree that work should be properly compensated, working conditions should be improved and safety protocols should b followed. However, games are not film/TV, and VA is not the main selling point (it certainly contributes to experience but not the main selling point mainly).
So I don't see residuals as something that VAs should be paid for. I could see contracts set so likeness/voice needs to be only utilized where stipulated and everything else would have additional few (as an example).
So I don't see residuals as something that VAs should be paid for. I could see contracts set so likeness/voice needs to be only utilized where stipulated and everything else would have additional few (as an example).
i understand why VAs would want better safety and higher pay.
I also understand why they wouldn't get more pay based on the success of a game.
I think VAs should get better safety and maybe limit the amount of recording they can do in a day, i think mocap should be extra pay and agreed upon ahead of time, and also have its own set of safety rules.
Everyone wants more pay and i honestly think it should go the the development team and freelance/contractors before it goes to the VAs.
the only people that should be getting benefits off of units sold should be the devs, or a case per case basis that would be agreed upon in a contract before recording begins. Typically i see this used when they cant afford to pay the regular rate for the duration they need and it's used as a bargaining chip, or a star will want that in order to do the project, mainly knowing that it would pay better than the regular rate.
its kinda like how stars will do indie films and also be credited as a producer.
unions started as a great idea and overtime it's gotten hit or miss.
I also understand why they wouldn't get more pay based on the success of a game.
I think VAs should get better safety and maybe limit the amount of recording they can do in a day, i think mocap should be extra pay and agreed upon ahead of time, and also have its own set of safety rules.
Everyone wants more pay and i honestly think it should go the the development team and freelance/contractors before it goes to the VAs.
the only people that should be getting benefits off of units sold should be the devs, or a case per case basis that would be agreed upon in a contract before recording begins. Typically i see this used when they cant afford to pay the regular rate for the duration they need and it's used as a bargaining chip, or a star will want that in order to do the project, mainly knowing that it would pay better than the regular rate.
its kinda like how stars will do indie films and also be credited as a producer.
unions started as a great idea and overtime it's gotten hit or miss.
bluecapsule
Member
They only represent 25% of voice actors? That doesn't seem like enough market power for this strike to be effective.
Untrue especially these days.
You haven't played any games in Japanese, I guess?
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Cassandra Lee Morris (Persona 5, LoL, SAO, Bravely Default)
It's bad, and better incentives for people involved would result in higher quality of product.
I don't think the current state of the technical side of development is something to be really proud of.
It's bad, and better incentives for people involved would result in higher quality of product.
"#performancematters Final straw 4 me was one of the negotiators looked in my eyes & said, "No one really cares about the voices""
Yep. Always a treat.
Funny thing is, Voice Actors are usually who end up doing the most to represent the game a publisher is trying to sell. Interviews, conventions, etc. We get people who rage when publishers change the voice actor of a character as well. Voice Actors have quickly become one with some of the most popular characters in gaming.
I mean, that person said that to Tara Strong? Her resume is gigantic full of well known, beloved characters.
chrominance
Member
I'm a bit confused as to exactly who is and is not a union member, and whether the 25% figure is correct or not. The article linked in one of the early replies quotes a figure of "25% of all video games" being union gigs, but the title of the thread (and some of the posts in the thread) saying 25% of voice actors, which is not the same thing. Are Nolan North and Troy Baker, for example, really not part of the union at all? I thought the last time this came up, someone mentioned they were "fi-core"? SAG-AFTRA's position on fi-core members are that they're essentially not members at all, and that anyone who is fi-core is essentially a scab in SAG-AFTRA's eyes, but that doesn't necessarily make them scabs if they don't actually cross picket lines during a strike, right?
Also, Cassandra Lee Morris popped up in the Persona 5 voice casting promo, and traditionally Atlus joints have not been union gigs, but non-union gigs usually don't list voice actor credits, and Persona 5 did, and basically I don't know what her status is but if she's actually fi-core or non-union, why would she care about the strike action except possibly out of solidarity?
Also, Cassandra Lee Morris popped up in the Persona 5 voice casting promo, and traditionally Atlus joints have not been union gigs, but non-union gigs usually don't list voice actor credits, and Persona 5 did, and basically I don't know what her status is but if she's actually fi-core or non-union, why would she care about the strike action except possibly out of solidarity?
LordGorchnik
Member
Do we have anyone in the VA business on GAF that can shed some light? I am specifically interested in why they feel they should be paid "residual income" when the people who actually developed the game such as the artists, composers, programmers, etc still don't have this benefit.
And while I am perfectly fine if they got it, if VAs did, then the mentioned above most definitely also need it.
I just don't see this turning our favorable for the VAs. Hope this can be resolved quickly.
And while I am perfectly fine if they got it, if VAs did, then the mentioned above most definitely also need it.
I just don't see this turning our favorable for the VAs. Hope this can be resolved quickly.
the voice actors have no control over the kinds of contracts other development staff get. their union can only negotiate for their members.
i agree that developers should generally get better work conditions generally and probably more compensation, which means they should unionize and negotiate for it. the fact that they probably won't shouldn't stop anyone else from asking for a fair wage.
Yeah, that's crazy. "Nobody cares about the voices...."
Said to one of the best and most prolific voice actresses of all time.
Yeah, tell that to the 30 minute-long line of kids I had to wade through to get her autograph...
Regardless of residuals, I'm 100% in favor of voice actors getting better treatment, better working conditions, and - for the love of God - more respect than "nobody cares about you".
We do care. It's why we throw a fit every time a beloved voice gets replaced.
eyeball_kid
Member
There was a good segment about this yesterday on KCRW's Press Play, with Phil LaMarr as a guest.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
The video game companies' counteroffer is pretty decent though...
That is mind blowing to me. If people caught wind of who that person is they would be up to their necks in angry fan mail
Megawarrior
Member
Less than 25%!? Well...I can't see this going well. They will probably just go and use non union voice actors.
A Grizzly Bear
Member
This. As someone who has worked with unions most of his career.. I really hope there's more nuance to them declining that offer.
NinjaCoachZ
Member
re: Cassandra - Recently various non-union dubs have started to get less hush-hush about their voice actors. Why? I'm not 100% sure myself but if I had to guess, the union members who used to be prolific in them are moving on and being largely replaced by newcomers who have nothing to lose from working on them. There are exceptions but generally dubs are starting to snatch up that type of crowd. The VAs announced for Persona 5 are that crowd, basically. I don't know about Cassandra Lee's status but saying for a minute she's not a union member (easiest assumption to make at the moment) - Even if you're non-union, you don't want to be non-union forever. It's a show of solidarity.
People saying Nolan North and Troy Baker aren't union members are spreading misinformation as far as I know.
I'm both a professional VA and a game developer running a company, so.
First off, they're not *technically* asking for residuals. They're asking for additional scale payments (~$800) at sale marks of 2m, 4m, 6m, and 8m copies sold. Even assuming a very low profit margin per copy, this makes the "residual" something like literally 0.001%.
It's not about "why should these voice actors get these payments when many devs don't", it's about "everyone should probably get these payments and we are part of everyone so we're asking". It's not actors' fault devs don't have unions. SAG-AFTRA is simply looking out for the interests of its members, which is the *entire point of unions*.
Moreover, the 25% thing is weird number. These strikes are largely about AAA productions, and they tend to use a much higher percentage of union talent than smaller devs. The 25% thing seems to be industry wide.
I gave all my full-time employees some small percentage of profits, and while I do believe they should probably get percentages before voice actors, I look at games like Red Dead Redemption and wonder what it would have been like without the performances it had. *Those* are the types of experiences the industry should be pushing for, and better compensation and work conditions can help raise the level of talent across the board.