Holy Order Sol
Member
I remember a Kickstarter for something like that failed. There wasn't much in terms of promotion though, I forgot what the game was called too.
Sakurai essay in EDGE on appealing to all types of gamers with the new Smash Bros.
- Thread starter Fiktion
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I remember a Kickstarter for something like that failed. There wasn't much in terms of promotion though, I forgot what the game was called too.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Ehh... without the iconic characters though, it will have a hard time finding a niche. Many/most Melee players started playing Melee for the Nintendo aspect.
Ooooh nice one. We're burning from that.
OmegaSmash
Member
There was that Air Dash Online game, but it's Kickstarter failed pretty badly (I'm not too surprised since the art style was really unappealing, and I didn't see that much support for it from the public)
And there's also this http://rivalsofaether.com/blog but I'm kind of skeptical about it.
Beelzebufo
Banned
I guess it would help if someone in the community started it, like if the Project M team tried to make something original. People know they can get the job done.
That doesn't work at all in that context lol
Takes one to know one!
i didnt thought that it was one. And its ok. An apology wasnt needed.
Glass Rebel
Member
I think it's safe to say that this thread has strayed away pretty far from its original intent. I mean, even in its beginning there was more talk about how wrong Sakurai apparently is about Melee supported by anecdotal evidence and some "Sakurai is an idiot" and "Sakurai is a dumbass" sprinkled in between instead of the point Sakurai was trying to make.
But you can usually tell a thread has run its course when it devolves into meta-discussion instead of actual interesting and technical talk a few pages ago.
But you can usually tell a thread has run its course when it devolves into meta-discussion instead of actual interesting and technical talk a few pages ago.
PensivePen
Member
I think the game just really did not have enough push to get the backing it needed. They also didn't have much to show at all. I'd like to see someone attempt it again.
And when we get into meta discussion about meta discussion you know things have really gone too far.
Which is something I find funny in terms of complimenting how well Sakurai has done with the Smash Bros series in terms of sales. If Sakurai didn't have access to Nintendo's IPs and it was still Dragon King...
I'd take a hypothetical guess and say it would of been a cult 64 classic that would of never gotten a sequel. Or perhaps it would of went the way of the Power Stone.
The undoubtedly biggest interest is the Nintendo characters, I personally like the gameplay overall but checking prerelease discussion the majority of it is on "I hope my favorite character makes it." If the game plays like Melee or Brawl it will sell like hotcakes to the grand majority regardless.
That game exists as Project M.
I'm still trying to figure out how Melee was too complex beyond techniques casuals either didn't know or didn't care about, or how some of the reasonable objections raised in this thread (lack of hitstun, too much recovery on aerials, etc.) somehow poison casual play to the point that Sakurai felt he had to make the changes he made. I feel like people are arguing past this point in favor of painting those who disagree with Sakurai as irrational Melee fanboys who hate the man.
I don't care if Smash 4 is like Melee or not. But I'd like it if it had more depth to explore and more offensive options than Brawl did. Will that be the case? I don't know; I'll have to play it and see. But Sakurai's comments matched with the videos I've seen and the impressions I've read don't fill me with confidence.
I don't care if Smash 4 is like Melee or not. But I'd like it if it had more depth to explore and more offensive options than Brawl did. Will that be the case? I don't know; I'll have to play it and see. But Sakurai's comments matched with the videos I've seen and the impressions I've read don't fill me with confidence.
Riposte
Member
Holy Order Sol
Member
everyone is Machamp
PensivePen
Member
One hand to yourself, the other on your friend to the left or right.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
For the record, can we try be a little more reflective on the arguments we use to dismiss Melee, please? The "oh why don't you just play a previous game in the series since you love it so much" argument is not a very good one. It's the same argument that the producer of the new F2P garbage Dungeon Keeper used.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=699937
Anyway, as far as addressing the "why don't you just play Melee" argument...
That's what's been happening for the past 10 years. It's what's gonna happen after Smash 4 comes out if it doesn't fix the flaws of Brawl to a reasonable level.
But why should the people who like responsive controls and solid gameplay mechanics have to do that? Is it so hard to expect that the solid gameplay design philosophies that made Melee so great be incorporated into Smash 4? Especially since it does not hinder the game for anyone else and can only improve the game for ALL audiences? I don't think this is such an unreasonable request.
And yet, if Smash 4 is a dud with tournament players, this kind of spectacle will once again contain a 10 year old game rather than the newest version of one of Nintendo's flagship series.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2KAtlXhLYQ
This would be the fault of a talented game designer who, for some inexplicable reason, cannot seem to wrap his head around the simple concept of "Accessible to all skill levels, with a high skill ceiling and deep and rewarding gameplay for those who wish to explore the game further." The beauty of Smash in general is how deep the gameplay is without the game being overly complex. Melee got this balance extremely well. Brawl has the same amount of complexity with much less depth, and less responsive controls. This direction isn't something we want to continue.
If there were a textbook on game design theory, this would be one of the chapters.
Hahahahaha
As for the Smash thread I took one look in, saw a crazy Daisy fanboy posting, then left. That is my experience with the Smash thread.
All I need is for someone to come in here and start posting Hakan fantasies
Wow, this is just sad.
Changing the damage ratio does not really change a lot.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
I cant wait for this game to come out now lol.
victreeb3l
Member
Why is everyone so sad?
The answer to your question is implied in the interview and it is stated explicitly by people in this thread. I won't retread old remarks but I'll head in a different direction to try and shed some light on the situation.
It would greatly help if you would stop considering the changes you outlined as an objective "negative" aspects added only for the sake of casual players. First and fore most, they're design choices made to affect any number of things. Some of which we can guess, others we can't. These minutiae some are arguing over are no more a prerequisite for competitive play than snaking is in Mario Kart DS, macro mining in Star Craft, or strict wake up timings in Street Fighter. Did they define competitive play for a time? Sure, but there are competitive avenues that exits without such things and Smash is no different.
If would also help if you started thinking about the aspects in Brawl that you thought negatively affected the experience as a matter of degree and not a matter of their inclusion. For example. You don't need Melee levels of hitstun and landing lag to facilitate meaningful combos/pressure/kills. There is actually a space in between the two games hitstun, lag, ect. that gives you some of what Melee did great and some of what Brawl did great.
Which brings up another point. Brawl did have a good number of things it did uniquely well. Things I think you guys would enjoy if presented in a package that was more appealing (say a game that falls somewhere inbetween Melee and Brawl perhaps?) A lot of these differences are things Project M likes taking a poo on. But I digress. I feel a lot of people are worried about strong links to Brawl because they don't understand how few changes are needed to avoid some of their major hang ups with the game.
I don't think Smash 4 is going to produce any Melee Foxs, Falcos, or Falcons (the "I like hitting buttons" characters). But even Melee has a great play and design spaces that exist outside that play style. I have little doubt that Smash 4 couldn't include those with some new flavor of its own to make something both sides can enjoy.
I never said those changes were added for the sake of casual players. However, they have been noted as things that bother competitive players. What I'm trying to figure out is why some believe upping the hit stun, for example, would negatively impact the play experience for casuals.
What we have in this thread is a lot of people saying Sakurai shouldn't give competitive players too much consideration because they're niche and listening to them would mess things up for casuals. And as far as advanced techniques and the like go, I actually agree with that sentiment. But things like altering recovery on aerials isn't going to suddenly break the game for the game who just wants to throw pokeballs at his friends.
The need to make things far for online I can see, but that seems like more of an argument for better matchmaking than anything. Because the truth is, the better player is (or at least should) always win.
Where was it implied I wasn't thinking of them in terms of degrees? The only reference I've made to Melee in terms of what I want from Smash 4 is saying explicitly that I don't care if the latter plays like the former as long as it doesn't veer too far in the direction of Brawl, which I consider to be the weaker game. I absolutely think there is a midway point between the two. It's just I'm not all that confident Sakurai is hitting that point. We'll see in a few weeks, though.
I agree. I don't think Brawl was a complete disaster. For example, I actually think the multiple air dodges is a good idea; Melee's air dodge was worthless and I like that this was addressed. However, I think it was a little too good as implemented, mainly because you could dodge out of hitstun.
Which is all I think most reasonable folk want: a multitude of playstyles and strategies to choose from. Feeling like the game will allow you to play rush down or defensively or a mix of the two however you like. Not everyone is trying to make "Melee 2.0," and it's unfair to characterize those who criticize Brawl as such regardless of their actual arguments. Which is probably the main thing about this debate that irritates me (not you specifically, but just in general).
I was the Technical Artist on the project. Not a big fan of the name, so I'm not going to mention it
. I was pretty active when it came to the development; character and environment modeling, coding shaders/effects/sun&sky, scripting our Maya side tools, and assisting with any outreach I could.Leading up to the Kickstarter was rough. The project started with a very clear goal; expand on what people enjoy about competitive Smash without restricting ourselves to the franchise conventions and style. Unfortunately, our feedback revealed everyone had a different idea of what the game needed (single player with a strong story, mascots, Awesomenauts/dota like re-imagining, party game style modes and items, cartoon-style graphics, sprites not 3d models, Mario, ect). A lot of these suggestions just didn't play to our strengths and sort of compromised everything we set out to accomplish. As much as I wish I could say as a team we brushed it off and continued forward with the core game, it did lead to doubts at the worst possible time. I also had a few job leads came up, which lead to phone interviews, then flying around to different studios. As the Kickstarter was nearing, I was personally facing some big decisions and fell out of the loop.
I really enjoyed working on the game, but I've learned this really is the type of project that needs to sit in a developer incubator. From what I gathered, lots of people want more out of the genre than what Nintendo provides every 6 years, but also will judge whatever that may be by the same criteria. Only way I see that changing is if something really fantastic is released with a different sort of vibe.
Anyways here's some art and a screenshot from the canceled game:
(Concept art by Yuul Wee)
(credits to Hector Marquez for the female model).
Sure opinions on the art differ from mine, but looking back I wish I could have flesh it out. Really happy at my new job, but it's always a little sad looking back on unfinished work. Anyways, keep an eye on Dan Fornace's new project, Rivals of Aether. Looking very solid. As far as what Sakuari said, lets just say I think the Smash audience has diversified over the years beyond what his design approach can accommodate for.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
It's a pretty laggy circlejerk.
I tried.
Also while that concept art looks legit for Air Dash Online, I don't think it carried over too well to what I saw in the Kickstarter footage. If you guys try resurrecting the project, maybe go for a (slight) cel-shaded look to capture the characters better?
I'm going to be very curious to see in the weeks and months after Smash 4 comes out (particularly the Wii U version, but I think even the 3DS will be subject to this) just how the tournament scene chooses to respond to the style of play that the new physics and timings encourage. How patient will people be in finding playstyles that deviate from the Melee formula?
What I mean is...one of the common complaints that I've seen about impressions from the demo so far is that the animations for landing on the ground while performing an aerial are too long. I am not a tech-head when it comes to fighting game mechanics but as far as I understand it, the main complaint about this is that it makes it too difficult to use things like short-hop aerials and then continue with other follow-up attacks to form combos.
...So? Is that automatically a bad thing just because it deviates from the style of play that tourney players are used to in Melee, or is it merely a difference that requires different thinking and tactics? Perhaps in that case, players should adjust to not rely on aerials like that for combo-building, and instead focus on ground-based attacks or other approaches. Maybe reliable combos in Smash 4 aren't meant to run as long as those in Melee. The early versions of Street Fighter 4 were a lot more defensively-minded as I recall, and I didn't see the tournament scene turning tail and running back to Third Strike immediately. Smash 4 will be different from Melee, no doubt. I also have no doubts that it will be different than Brawl, so at the very least I hope that it gets a legitimate chance. Hour-long impressions from a demo booth doesn't exactly give people a lot of time to figure out what may or may not work, so for the time being all that can be done is comparing it to the knowledge-base that already exists. That may be a dangerous assumption to make.
If nothing else, the roster in Smash 4 is introducing a lot of new fighting styles and concepts that I would think tournament level players will be curious to try out. We now have a puppeteer character in Rosalina, the ground-focused Little Mac, a character who can change their stats on the fly in Shulk, perishable special attacks with Robin, and who knows what the hell they might have come up with for Duck Hunt or (maybe) the Chorus Kids. This is all stuff that Smash has never really seen before. Even just in that sense it will give us a very, very different experience than Brawl had.
What I mean is...one of the common complaints that I've seen about impressions from the demo so far is that the animations for landing on the ground while performing an aerial are too long. I am not a tech-head when it comes to fighting game mechanics but as far as I understand it, the main complaint about this is that it makes it too difficult to use things like short-hop aerials and then continue with other follow-up attacks to form combos.
...So? Is that automatically a bad thing just because it deviates from the style of play that tourney players are used to in Melee, or is it merely a difference that requires different thinking and tactics? Perhaps in that case, players should adjust to not rely on aerials like that for combo-building, and instead focus on ground-based attacks or other approaches. Maybe reliable combos in Smash 4 aren't meant to run as long as those in Melee. The early versions of Street Fighter 4 were a lot more defensively-minded as I recall, and I didn't see the tournament scene turning tail and running back to Third Strike immediately. Smash 4 will be different from Melee, no doubt. I also have no doubts that it will be different than Brawl, so at the very least I hope that it gets a legitimate chance. Hour-long impressions from a demo booth doesn't exactly give people a lot of time to figure out what may or may not work, so for the time being all that can be done is comparing it to the knowledge-base that already exists. That may be a dangerous assumption to make.
If nothing else, the roster in Smash 4 is introducing a lot of new fighting styles and concepts that I would think tournament level players will be curious to try out. We now have a puppeteer character in Rosalina, the ground-focused Little Mac, a character who can change their stats on the fly in Shulk, perishable special attacks with Robin, and who knows what the hell they might have come up with for Duck Hunt or (maybe) the Chorus Kids. This is all stuff that Smash has never really seen before. Even just in that sense it will give us a very, very different experience than Brawl had.
Yeah, unfortunately it had to come to an end. Probably for the best though; working over the web was quite the challenge.
I've landed in a good place though. So has another former team member that's working on Killer Instinct Season 2 now.
There was a lot left to be desired with the KS. I'm really not in a position to judge though as I was off interviewing at crucial times.
I don't think it's going to get resurrected by this point.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
Hypothetically, if the the stat changes* you can make on characters could be done to an extent where (customization-wise) the game actually is a Melee 2.0 minus the advanced tech stuff like wavelanding and L-Cancelling, would implementing this in a tourney scenario be too much of a hassle to bother with?
*It's worth noting we don't entirely know how these work, and they're separate from the custom-movesets every character has now. Doesn't look like you get complete freedom over how every exact stat is affected when you change stuff, but the E3 demo had people unlocking certain stat customs with "Melee" included in brackets.
*It's worth noting we don't entirely know how these work, and they're separate from the custom-movesets every character has now. Doesn't look like you get complete freedom over how every exact stat is affected when you change stuff, but the E3 demo had people unlocking certain stat customs with "Melee" included in brackets.
Congrats either way. If I may ask, did working on Air Dash even if the kickstarter didn't pan out help get your work noticed? Or were you already established in the industry long beforehand? Just curious how programmers/artists/etc. who only have experience in projects like this get noticed.
Well that's why people want Sakurai gone then I guess.
....which is absurd imo!
You never really appreciate what you've got until it is taken away from you. Sakurai is an amazing developer as well as a master of fan service-smash has a build up like no other game ever has had!
I was established beforehand. Worked on Dance Central 3 as a Character Artist at Backbone Entertainment that we co-developed with Harmonix. Backbone closed soon after unfortunately.
I will say though, working on this indie game let me explore all this stuff I never could so quickly in a studio. Added a lot to my resume/tech portfolio and helped me transition to my job now as a straight Technical Artist. I went from being this junior artist earning moderate wages and never getting responses after applying to suddenly getting interest from multiple studios at a big pay raise. Took a serious bite out of my finances though to stay indie for so long.
It's easier to do well in the games industry by doing something needed that few are good at or have experience with.
Wow.
So basically, you've read criticism of Sakurai and that upset you. Whats wrong with saying hes deficient as a game designer? If people feel that way that's their opinion and providing they can back it up I see nothing wrong with that. Hes not exempt from criticism.
"Hes dedicated every waking moment to the franchise" So? Again that doesn't exempt him from criticism. And this is hardly a rare thing in the games industry. Id say pretty much every designer dedicates themselves to the game they are working on.
And good lord hes not being crucified. That's an exaggeration. There are people here with legitimate complaints and concerns. There are some who do not word them well/go a bit too far and its unfortunate, but on a message board its expected. The reality is that this is a place for discussion, and there's going to be opinions coming from many perspectives.
If you cant handle reading them i might suggest not clicking on a thread that was so obviously going to have some harsh criticism/arguments.
Your final remark about wanting the game to be something to spite someone else is just pathetic. This is what I took the most issue with, You're prepared to get back at some randoms on the internet to the detriment of a good game? Far out, that's just sad.
Congrats
Thanks!
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Glad to see it worked out for you. Good luck!
I think it's a popular idea among those against the so-called Melee 2.0 crowd that people just don't know all the great things about Brawl. The irony is that a lot of the Brawl haters dislike Brawl because they spent a lot of time with it and have discovered just how boring it is.
What did Brawl do right? I can think of configurable controls, fan service, and a larger roster.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Not the length of the hitstun, but when it's active. Lightshielding or tilting the shield up would make the attacker hit you sooner, which activates the hitstun (or blockstun, I guess I should say) sooner. If you weren't expecting that, you're more likely to mistime your L-cancel, leaving you vulnerable.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Content-wise, of course it's a high quality piece of software, as most fanservice games tend to be. However, if the gameplay is lacking, then that makes it lesser quality product in that aspect. It might not matter to you as much, and that's fine. Everyone's tastes are different. However, that does make it an inferior product in the eyes of those who do value gameplay more. This is why Melee is still more popular than Brawl in those circles.
The tournament scene isn't extremely small. They are fans, deserving of respect just like any other fans. They are fans who've played the game going on 10 years or more. Why should he care? Why should he care? Because that's his job. A good designer can create a game that appeals to all players. He did that once. It was called Smash Brothers Melee.
You literally just said, "Sakurai doesn't give a shit", and "why should he care". Which is it?
You're strawmanning here. Only the more unreasonable/extreme/hyperbolic viewpoints think he's "dogshit" or that he's a "terrible designer". Most have acknowledged his impressive resume. His critics are the ones that love Melee, a game that he himself designed.
Pointing out that his evolution in thinking about game design to purposefully exclude competitive play is flawed is a reasonable critique.
Pointing out that he can create a game that appeals to both casuals and competitive types is a reasonable opinion.
Pointing out that he is mistaken when he thinks that competitive play necessarily equals overly complicated controls is a reasonable critique.
Hold hands? Whoa buddy
Looks like it's way too early for that.
But it wasn't too early to shit on Sakurai and his competence as a developer just because people didn't like what he wrote in this article?
Master Milk
Member
Brawl's been out for a few years you know