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[Kal_El]

I've represented more than a few people who refused to bond their kids out using that justification, it is a real smh moment. Happens far more with juveniles than adults, at least in my experience.

While i'm sure that's true you have to see the difference between a kids that's constantly messing up and a woman on her way to a job that could pay them back if need be. Very rarely would a mother leave her grown daughter in jail for reasons if she could afford to get her out.

What's the policy on paying out of state bond?

 

[Random Painted HIghway]

While i'm sure that's true you have to see the difference between a kids that's constantly messing up and a woman on her way to a job that could pay them back if need be. Very rarely would a mother leave her grown daughter in jail for reasons if she could afford to get her out.

What's the policy on paying out of state bond?

Right, I should have added that the other problem area is, as you would expect, with drug defendants, for reasons similar to the juveniles. We know that she had a prior dwi and a fair amount of other court business, but it does seem like she would need to have been bonded out every few months or so like some folks. Each family has their own breaking point for such things of course.

Regarding the out of state issue and bonds, I've never had any issues with that aspect, though logistically it would of course be more complicated than just hand delivering a cashiers check. You might be able to find a bondsman who takes a credit card. The counties I've worked in have been considerably larger than Waller county, so even on the risky cases, you could find a bondsman. Perhaps in Waller co with an out of state defendant, the family couldn't find the right bondsman. I would be a bit surprised about that frankly, as this was a pretty minimal bond amount for a bondsmanto eat if she fled.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

I'm not saying what happened to her in jail, and I'm not saying by whom anything happened. I'm just saying that I'm skeptical of the evidence because of its sourcing, and a lot of the circumstantial details have nothing to do with anything except lending to the leap in logic that she killed herself when she could have gotten out and had a case for a lawsuit. She had everything going for her, and she killed herself over an argument with a police officer? It isn't logical, it isn't linear, so it allows room for skepticism, and therefore, I wouldn't trust attribution of the evidence unless it was directly sourced and verifiable. There is no trust here. If they had a report that said the sky was blue, I would want to look outside for myself.

I'd want their records pulled. I want to know their record on race, who they pull over for what, the staties and the locals in that area. I want to know that trooper's record for pulling people over for failure to turn-signal, I would want to know the history of the jail and the sheriff's dept. Why? Because this doesn't seem so open and shut to me, but everyone seems to want to lead the elephant out the door. 'Oh she was a cutter, oh she swallowed some pills after a miscarriage once.' She had too much going for her. And if she had a mental health break, I want to know what exactly happened to her and how.

You can be skeptical all you want but you have to provide something to make your argument real.

She seems to have a history of depression and has tried before. This could have been something that put her over the edge.

You can ask for all these things regarding race, pull over rates, etc but you're asking for things to try and disprove what's already there--and what's there is pretty convincing.

 

[Coins]

While i'm sure that's true you have to see the difference between a kids that's constantly messing up and a woman on her way to a job that could pay them back if need be. Very rarely would a mother leave her grown daughter in jail for reasons if she could afford to get her out.

What's the policy on paying out of state bond?

Why didn't they answer the phone then?

 

[Random Painted HIghway]

there is nothing to lead us to her being suicidal other than evidence of a previously stressed, and now currently dead black girl. We don't have to cast her in any light ourselves. She was angry, a fighter speaking about rights and lawsuits, then she was completely subdued and no longer eating, and by this point they were only in contact with her via intercom? I'd be more skeptical of the jail and sheriff and troopers than I would be of the family. She had faced adversity and was on the ascent. Missing her first day at work would have been seriously stressful, but this?

I'm just saying that I think it's beneficial to have a healthy dose of skepticism towards everyone in a case like this, frankly, for the arresting officer, to the jail, to the family, to the prosecutor. There is plenty of incentive for things to be spun in each direction, and families are as notorious as police officers for playing up the favorabilities and not allowing even the tiniest amount of doubt to crack their voice.

 

[akira28]

You can be skeptical all you want but you have to provide something to make your argument real.

She seems to have a history of depression and has tried before. This could have been something that put her over the edge.

You can ask for all these things regarding race, pull over rates, etc but you're asking for things to try and disprove what's already there--and what's there is pretty convincing.

Finding evidence of a history of wrong doing and mistreatment, unfair application of the law, or unfair race based policing shouldn't really have anything to do with proving or disproving whether Sandra hung herself in her jail cell. But it definitely provides background and necessary context, in my opinion, of what happened to her during those 3 days, which, with all the video and police records, still remains a mystery...unless you simply accept "oh she just hung herself, shit happens sometimes. (it's fucked up.) moving on.."

Even though she had attempted suicide in 2014, or 2015, its unclear. We are still making educated guesses as to how that trashbag got into a noose strong enough to hold her weight, and then how she was able to balance herself and slowly asphyxiate to-death, without breaking the bag or simply knocking herself out and giving herself life-long brain damage. She had a previous history, it's possible she committed suicide, of course. Is that all there is? If you're trying to make 1+1=2, sure. Then that's all there is. I don't trust anyone in this, so I have questions.

I'm just saying that I think it's beneficial to have a healthy dose of skepticism towards everyone in a case like this, frankly, for the arresting officer, to the jail, to the family, to the prosecutor. There is plenty of incentive for things to be spun in each direction, and families are as notorious as police officers for playing up the favorabilities and not allowing even the tiniest amount of doubt to crack their voice.

I agree with you here.

 

[DrForester]

I'm just saying that I think it's beneficial to have a healthy dose of skepticism towards everyone in a case like this, frankly, for the arresting officer, to the jail, to the family, to the prosecutor. There is plenty of incentive for things to be spun in each direction, and families are as notorious as police officers for playing up the favorabilities and not allowing even the tiniest amount of doubt to crack their voice.

Well, there are two totally different issues here.

Everything the cop did is one issue.

Everything that happened in the jail is another issue. Yes, there's the obvious problem that she shouldn't have been there to begin with, but as far as what happened at the jail, that's another issue entirely.

Both just sadly happened to this one woman.

Personally, I think she did commit suicide. Seems she was going through some hard times. That's certainly not excusing the negligence on the part of the prison, but I do believe that it was just that. Neglegance. Not some grand conspiracy to kill her.

But for me, the prison issue, even though it resulted in her death, is the lesser issue. That's just eh tragic outcome. The bigger issue is that she never should have been there to begin with.

 

[Quote]

Well, there are two totally different issues here.

Everything the cop did is one issue.

Everything that happened in the jail is another issue. Yes, there's the obvious problem that she shouldn't have been there to begin with, but as far as what happened at the jail, that's another issue entirely.

Both just sadly happened to this one woman.

Personally, I think she did commit suicide. Seems she was going through some hard times. That's certainly not excusing the negligence on the part of the prison, but I do believe that it was just that. Neglegance. Not some grand conspiracy to kill her.

But for me, the prison issue, even though it resulted in her death, is the lesser issue. That's just eh tragic outcome. The bigger issue is that she never should have been there to begin with.

This, this, this.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Ugh.

So one of my family members is continuing their descent into full on racism. They have now become the family member that takes it upon themselves to write e-mails to the entire family concerning white on black arrests/killings.

A direct quote:

"If you are arrogant, the police can accidentally kill you. And it would be legal. That's the way the world works. If you don't like it, vote it out".

 

[akira28]

Why didn't they answer the phone then?

honestly I wouldn't answer a phone call from the 'Pimlico Co. Jail Correctional Facility' showing up on my caller id either. I'd at least let it go to voice mail and then I'd have to call back. I'd like to know everything that happened around this issue, too.

facing tough times is one thing. It's fucking HARD to kill yourself in jail. You don't do it because you feel sad. You do it because death is better than whatever the alternative is. It's usually really hard to commit suicide, which is why there has always been a history of suspicion and of suspicious deaths when someone in a sensitive case ends up dead via smuggled in shoestring or ripped up towel. There is always some lapse in procedure, and it never goes beyond that and suspicion, and a mysteriously suicidal minority. This isn't new.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Finding evidence of a history of wrong doing and mistreatment, unfair application of the law, or unfair race based policing shouldn't really have anything to do with proving or disproving whether Sandra hung herself in her jail cell. But it definitely provides background and necessary context, in my opinion, of what happened to her during those 3 days, which, with all the video and police records, still remains a mystery...unless you simply accept "oh she just hung herself, shit happens sometimes. (it's fucked up.) moving on.."

You can ask these questions but it means nothing to whether or not Sandra Bland was murdered or committed suicide. This is the point of contention. You agree to this. I agree they should be investigated either way.

Even though she had attempted suicide in 2014, or 2015, its unclear. We are still making educated guesses as to how that trashbag got into a noose strong enough to hold her weight, and then how she was able to balance herself and slowly asphyxiate to-death, without breaking the bag or simply knocking herself out and giving herself life-long brain damage. She had a previous history, it's possible she committed suicide, of course. Is that all there is? If you're trying to make 1+1=2, sure. Then that's all there is. I don't trust anyone in this, so I have questions.

You have these questions because you have an answer in mind already. What would you need to believe she did commit suicide?

The evidence shows she has a history with suicide, no defensive wounds, and cops weren't present at the time (through video and other held testimony). You have gave ideas of ways to subdue without a struggle and wanting the backgrounds of the people involved investigated. You're choosing not to look at the evidence presented so far and want to find other ways to show doubt on the situation. This doesn't mean the officials involved aren't negligent or had some wrong doing but the evidence so far indicates suicide.

 

[Idba]

You can ask these questions but it means nothing to whether or not Sandra Bland was murdered or committed suicide. This is the point of contention. You agree to this. I agree they should be investigated either way.



You have these questions because you have an answer in mind already. What would you need to believe she did commit suicide?

The evidence shows she has a history with suicide, no defensive wounds, and cops weren't present at the time (through video and other held testimony). You have gave ideas of ways to subdue without a struggle and wanting the backgrounds of the people involved investigated. You're choosing not to look at the evidence presented so far and want to find other ways to show doubt on the situation. This doesn't mean the officials involved aren't negligent or had some wrong doing but the evidence so far indicates suicide.

The evidence also suggests states that shes was not suicidal.

 

[akira28]

You can ask these questions but it means nothing to whether or not Sandra Bland was murdered or committed suicide. This is the point of contention. You agree to this. I agree they should be investigated either way.



You have these questions because you have an answer in mind already. What would you need to believe she did commit suicide?

The evidence shows she has a history with suicide, no defensive wounds, and cops weren't present at the time (through video and other held testimony). You have gave ideas of ways to subdue without a struggle and wanting the backgrounds of the people involved investigated. You're choosing not to look at the evidence presented so far and want to find other ways to show doubt on the situation. This doesn't mean the officials involved aren't negligent or had some wrong doing but the evidence so far indicates suicide.

You say whatever is found would have nothing to do with whatever happened to Sandra Bland, and I say that it might. Don't see why it has to be a point of contention, because to see that black people driving through that area have a history of trouble with law enforcement or while being in their custody would certainly have a bearing on what happened to Sandra Bland. Both incidents separately should spur investigation, and together, that should be included in the context of the investigation in some way. Overlaps, cross-relatives, all of those are possibilities.

I have the questions because the answer in my head is a question mark. I see the evidence presented(to the media), and besides understanding that there usually is more to a story than what is presented, the fact that there is a stake and a sensitive issue, and a questionable arrest makes me have suspicions. People should have suspicions with much less, but people are very eager to put this to bed and let this be another dead black girl.

Show me unedited video of multiple angles of all the interactions, every second of her jail custody, and we'll talk.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

The evidence also suggests states that shes was not suicidal.

Which was?

You say whatever is found would have nothing to do with whatever happened to Sandra Bland, and I say that it might. Don't see why it has to be a point of contention, because to see that black people driving through that area have a history of trouble with law enforcement or while being in their custody would certainly have a bearing on what happened to Sandra Bland. Both incidents separately should spur investigation, and together, that should be included in the context of the investigation in some way. Overlaps, cross-relatives, all of those are possibilities.

It's a point of contention because you are looking for reasons to not believe the evidence. You want these cops investigated because you want to find some damaging piece of information about their character that will embolden your argument. Finding them to be racist, bigoted, power tripping, etc. won't make her death not a suicide.

I have the questions because the answer in my head is a question mark. I see the evidence presented(to the media), and besides understanding that there usually is more to a story than what is presented, the fact that there is a stake and a sensitive issue, and a questionable arrest makes me have suspicions. People should have suspicions with much less, but people are very eager to put this to bed and let this be another dead black girl.

Stake, sensitive issue, and questionable arrest still isn't evidence of murder. You can have your suspicions but you need some evidence or else it's conspiracy theory.

Show me unedited video of multiple angles of all the interactions, every second of her jail custody, and we'll talk.

I guess we'll never talk since this isn't possible.

 

[Idba]

Which was?


It's a point of contention because you are looking for reasons to not believe the evidence. You want these cops investigated because you want to find some damaging piece of information about their character that will embolden your argument. Finding them to be racist, bigoted, power tripping, etc. won't make her death not a suicide.




Stake, sensitive issue, and questionable arrest still isn't evidence of murder. You can have your suspicions but you need some evidence or else it's conspiracy theory.


Also the screener found no signs of her having any mental problems.
I guess we'll never talk since this isn't possible.

The police form she filled out.

"Have you thought about killing yourself in the last year?" She answered no.
"Have you thought about killing yourself today?" She answered no.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

The police form she filled out. "Are you suicidal at the moment?" "No"

On the surface, yes, that is her statement of mental health. Her history shows differently. Is that not important?

 

[akira28]

which one carries weight, who's going to decide the direction that one goes? She wasn't feeling suicidal but her history tells us she was a dead girl walking.


I did not expect that we would ever talk. But they really should have every second of that hallway with every second of every person who went in and out of that area or walked past her cell. That's not too much to ask, they had a camera right there.

I don't have to look for damaging character information, I want to know their history. It's relevant.

 

[Idba]

On the surface, yes, that is her statement of mental health. Her history shows differently. Is that not important?

She said on the form that she had tried suicide by pills when her fetus and grandmother died last year.

Also:

"Have you thought about killing yourself in the last year?" She answered no.
"Have you thought about killing yourself today?" She answered no.

And the screener found no signs of mental health problems.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

which one carries weight, who's going to decide the direction that one goes? She wasn't feeling suicidal but her history tells us she was a dead girl walking.


I did not expect that we would ever talk. But they really should have every second of that hallway with every second of every person who went in and out of that area or walked past her cell. That's not too much to ask, they had a camera right there.

Is the camera not motion censored?

She said on the form that she had tried suicide when her fetus and grandmother died last year.

Also:

"Have you thought about killing yourself in the last year?" She answered no.
"Have you thought about killing yourself today?" She answered no.

And the screener found no signs of mental health problems.

I wouldn't call their mental health screening a perfect process. With regards to how mental health is taken in USA (and a lot of other places), it wouldn't surprise me if someone who was depressed got through.

 

[Idba]

Is the camera not motion censored?



I wouldn't call their mental health screening a perfect process. With regards to how mental health is taken in USA (and a lot of other places), it wouldn't surprise me if someone who was depressed got through.

All you have ever been talking about is "yea but do you have evidence?" and when provided you're just gonna say "yea but", for which you have been calling others stupid for saying that when talking to you.

 

[akira28]

Is the camera not motion censored?

Is it? That's something to be verified, if it is a verifiable.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

All you have ever been talking about is "yea but do you have evidence?" and when provided you're just gonna say "yea but", for which you have been calling others stupid for saying that when talking to you.

I don't take a few questions to be a good way to determine mental health. It's a screen check.

This isn't proof she wasn't depressed or had suicidal thoughts. It means she passed a county jail screening.

Is it? That's something to be verified, if it is a verifiable.

All accounts say it is motion censored.

 

[DrForester]

A direct quote:

"If you are arrogant, the police can accidentally kill you. And it would be legal. That's the way the world works. If you don't like it, vote it out".

Well, they're not wrong. I'd say the line is whether or not you think that's a sad and awful thing, or think it's good (or don't care).

 

[Kettch]

But for me, the prison issue, even though it resulted in her death, is the lesser issue. That's just eh tragic outcome. The bigger issue is that she never should have been there to begin with.

Eh, I would argue that the prison issue is pretty damn big as well. Yes, she shouldn't have been there, but what about people that should be there? They need to be taken care of as well.

If this is true:

The woman said Bland wasn't eating, and was emotional, and often crying during her three days in the jail. She was also stressed about missing her first day of work at her new job, said Alexandria Pyle.

"She found out her bond was $5,000, and no one -- she was calling and calling -- and no one was answering, and then after that she just broke down. She was crying and crying," Pyle said.

Then they absolutely should have gotten her help at some point. This isn't much of a step down from those cases of ignoring a prisoner when they say they can't breathe.

 

[akira28]

All accounts say it is motion censored.

i'm aware of that. not exactly what would be acceptable in an investigation. I read the papers and watch television news and listen to the radio just like everyone else. understand the concept of 'trust but verify, however you are also incapable of being trusted, so here we are?'

 

[Subpar Spatula]

i'm aware of that. I read the papers and watch television news and listen to the radio just like everyone else. understand the concept of 'trust but verify, however you are also incapable of being trusted, so here we are?'

Then by your own logic you are to not be trusted.

You sound like a conspiracy theorist at this point. Evidence is presented but you don't trust the sources because of imbedded reasons.

I don't want to enable this any further.

 

[akira28]

prosecutors knowingly withhold evidence from their cases, regularly. They hold back information that would certainly affect the cases that they work on. They hold the information found in investigations if it would help the defense, and only turn things over if forced by law, which doesn't happen if you don't know to ask if the police have found information that could exonerate your client, and to file a motion for it's release. This isn't a conspiracy, it's the way the justice system works in America. Just because all the evidence you've seen leads a narrative in one direction, that doesn't mean that's all the evidence that was available. So until this thing has been gone over with a nanometer magnifying glass, I'm going to have questions.

But thank you for the label of conspiracy theorist, whatever your reasoning, lol we're done here.

Then by your own logic you are to not be trusted.

You sound like a conspiracy theorist at this point. Evidence is presented but you don't trust the sources because of imbedded reasons.

I don't want to enable this any further.

You're wrong about the basis of the logic, and missing the point.

I don't have a history of lying about or committing racial violence, so by that logic, I wouldn't be as untrustworthy as the police have proven to be, in general.

 

[nitekrawlwer]

Can you stop being this way? I never said you can't fix the issue with police. I said follow lawful orders, and being respectful to police probably get's you in less issues than being disrespectful.

I mean, you attack me like that's an extreme viewpoint.

We really should ban the use of the term "victim blaming" when it's going to be used like it is in this thread, it's like the new Godwin on Neogaf, meant to stop discussion than further it.

No you stop being this way. If the last thing I quoted from you wasn't clear enough in what you said let me paste it here again...

"In the end, you can't control police you can control yourself. This started as a discussion of the Sandra Bland stop, what I was discussing this whole time is what she could have done to make this situation not end the way it did."

Maybe you should focus not on what the victim could have done to avoid this issue, focus on what the person with all the authority, training, tools to defend himself could have done to prevent it.

It's an extremely biased viewpoint that is very dangerous and allows for people to be killed regularly and oppressed even more often than the frequent killings. Just like I don't care if slavery is great is the prevailing and regular viewpoint. That doesn't mean it's the right one.

If you don't want to be called a victim blamer then start with not blaming the victim.

 

[hey_monkey]

If you don't want to be called a victim blamer then start with not blaming the victim.

If you don't want to be called a victim blamer then start with not blaming the victim.

If you don't want to be called a victim blamer then start with not blaming the victim.

If you don't want to be called a victim blamer then start with not blaming the victim.

At the point that this man has been censured by his superiors for violating procedure, Sandra Bland is, by definition, a victim of his behavior. How she acted doesn't matter. It did not control him. He chose to act as he did. We have seen plenty of footage of other officers who stood stoically while people railed at them, in cars, at protests, etc. Here we see one who did not. And anyone who thinks it's totally impossible to change the behavior of police? Well, congratulations. You're part of the problem.

 

[nitekrawlwer]

At the point that this man has been censured by his superiors for violating procedure, Sandra Bland is, by definition, a victim of his behavior. How she acted doesn't matter. It did not control him. He chose to act as he did. We have seen plenty of footage of other officers who stood stoically while people railed at them, in cars, at protests, etc. Here we see one who did not. And anyone who thinks it's totally impossible to change the behavior of police? Well, congratulations. You're part of the problem.

QFT. Thank you so much for reiterating. I'm not used to people understanding my perspective and pleasantly surprised to see it.

 

[Measley]

That trash can in the cell seems kind of out of place. Is that typical for holding cells to have large trashcans like that? Couldn't that and/or the bag inside of it be used as a weapon?

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I don't understand what it's for anyway. What items would they have to throw away?

 

[DarkFlow]

I don't understand what it's for anyway. What items would they have to throw away?

Meals.

 

[CarpeDeezNutz]

I don't understand what it's for anyway. What items would they have to throw away?

Tossing away that jail house grub

 

[hey_monkey]

QFT. Thank you so much for reiterating. I'm not used to people understanding my perspective and pleasantly surprised to see it.

No problem. It's astonishing to me that so many people seem to be ignoring that simple fact in favor of repeated semantics arguments over who considers what "victimhood."

 

[Random Painted HIghway]

So there was a minor protest at the officers apartment complex yesterday. Err, an apartment complex at the officer may or may not live at, a minor detail.

http://www.chron.com/neighborhood/k...utside-Katy-home-of-state-trooper-6406823.php

Student activist Jerry Ford II, who attends Texas Southern University, said there was word circulating that the complex was not Encinia's current residence.
"But our information told us that his house is here, that he lives here," said Ford II, adding that Quanell X and others told the protestors that. "We're not going to find another residence. I think we got our point across. We weren't coming here to really cause any hell to them, we just wanted to get our voice out and call for his dismissal."

But the police presence must have been something to see and be wary of:


Roughly two dozen deputies were posted in front of the apartment complex Sunday afternoon, including eight on horses

 

[NervousXtian]

QFT. Thank you so much for reiterating. I'm not used to people understanding my perspective and pleasantly surprised to see it.

Seriously, so no discussion should ever be made how to react in a traffic stop because if things go wrong you're a victim and we should only discuss the cop.

I really hate this "victim blame" card, as it's 100% used to stop discussion... nothing else.

 

[TheOMan]

Seriously, so no discussion should ever be made how to react in a traffic stop because if things go wrong you're a victim and we should only discuss the cop.

I really hate this "victim blame" card, as it's 100% used to stop discussion... nothing else.

It's almost as if you didn't read hey_monkey's post up there. Maybe you didn't?

However, in practicality, I do understand what you're saying. The sad thing is that it's no guarantee you aren't gonna get shot/arrested anyway.

 

[SliceSabre]

I will go to my grave believing these cops murdered her and did a cover up.

Anyone who actually trusts the police in situations like this is a willful fool and part of the reason cops get away with so much corrupt crap in the first place.

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

Seriously, so no discussion should ever be made how to react in a traffic stop because if things go wrong you're a victim and we should only discuss the cop.

I really hate this "victim blame" card, as it's 100% used to stop discussion... nothing else.

The only legitimate "advice" for a civilian's responsibility--like "don't pull a gun on a police officer for a speeding ticket"--is so obvious and ridiculous as to not require discussion. The kind you're talking about--"don't get mouthy with a cop so he doesn't ring you up for some extra bullshit"--is still the cop's responsibility.

So no, there's not a whole lot to discuss about how a civilian should "behave".

 

[Malleymal]

so the SandraBland Hashtag has been blocked on instagram? How does that work? I can only see the top posts under the hashtag although there are a bunch more out there?

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

Both possibilities of this situation is weird. Either she killed herself or they did it, and I find both outcomes to be really unlikely. Why would she kill herself for such a low "crime?" Was she already having mental issues? Cuts on her arm/wrist don't mean she was suicidal, could just mean she was a "cutter." On the other side of it, why would the cops kill her? Just doesn't seem likely.

 

[Random Painted HIghway]

I will go to my grave believing these cops murdered her and did a cover up.

Anyone who actually trusts the police in situations like this is a willful fool and part of the reason cops get away with so much corrupt crap in the first place.

Which cops do you believe murdered her? Arresting officer? Jail guards? Both sets acting in concert?

 

[Nitsuj23]

there is nothing to lead us to her being suicidal other than evidence of a previously stressed

Even though she had attempted suicide in 2014, or 2015

I think she was grossly mistreated. She was at a mental low point in her life. A lot of, if not most, cops are shitty. Their actions were unnecessary and were a catalyst in her death - but I think she ultimately took her own life. Her mental state is their fault. Her mental state killed her. But I don't think a cop physically murdered her.

 

[NervousXtian]

It's almost as if you didn't read hey_monkey's post up there. Maybe you didn't?

However, in practicality, I do understand what you're saying. The sad thing is that it's no guarantee you aren't gonna get shot/arrested anyway.

I know it's not a guarantee, but if you were going to put some kind of risk assessment value on compliance vs non-compliance.. we know which way that pendulum swings heavily. It's towards compliance.

I can separate civilian behavior from police behavior, because they are 2 entirely different things. Again, we aren't discussing a stop where the person was being compliant, so thus the calls of victim blaming towards me don't really apply.

If we were discussing someone doing everything right, and still got killed/shot/arrested.. then you wouldn't at all see me make an argument at all.. that's a pure victim 100%.

The cop being a dick doesn't excuse her not exiting.

The only legitimate "advice" for a civilian's responsibility--like "don't pull a gun on a police officer for a speeding ticket"--is so obvious and ridiculous as to not require discussion. The kind you're talking about--"don't get mouthy with a cop so he doesn't ring you up for some extra bullshit"--is still the cop's responsibility.

So no, there's not a whole lot to discuss about how a civilian should "behave".

She refused his order, not sure how many times it needs to be said.. it went beyond being mouthy. I never once said being mouthy should mean you get arrested, I said it's best not to be, but I never said that's the only thing she did wrong. She was fine until she refused the order. Against procedure or not, at that time you get out of the car, by refusing it she got arrested.

Again, that all could have been thrown out at court if they felt he needly escalated it, but even the ACLU will tell you, if asked, get out.

Not sure at all what your point has to do with her refusing to get out. That's not behaving badly, that's disobeying a lawful order.

 

[DrForester]

I know it's not a guarantee, but if you were going to put some kind of risk assessment value on compliance vs non-compliance.. we know which way that pendulum swings heavily. It's towards compliance.

I can separate civilian behavior from police behavior, because they are 2 entirely different things. Again, we aren't discussing a stop where the person was being compliant, so thus the calls of victim blaming towards me don't really apply.

If we were discussing someone doing everything right, and still got killed/shot/arrested.. then you wouldn't at all see me make an argument at all.. that's a pure victim 100%.

The cop being a dick doesn't excuse her not exiting.



She refused his order, not sure how many times it needs to be said.. it went beyond being mouthy. I never once said being mouthy should mean you get arrested, I said it's best not to be, but I never said that's the only thing she did wrong. She was fine until she refused the order. Against procedure or not, at that time you get out of the car, by refusing it she got arrested.

Again, that all could have been thrown out at court if they felt he needly escalated it, but even the ACLU will tell you, if asked, get out.

Not sure at all what your point has to do with her refusing to get out. That's not behaving badly, that's disobeying a lawful order.

The problem is the cop never should have asked her to get out of the car. His ego was bruised and he decided that this woman was going to pay for her defiance. He was going to make her get out of the car, embarrass her in front of passers-by with a pat down because she wouldn't put out a cigarette and wasn't showing him the respect he thought he deserved.

Being a bit of a jerk to an officer should not give the officer the right to escalate the situation. And it was the cop who escalated the situation.

 

[Spycarnegy]

Not to mention she did finally comply with his bogus order to get out of the car.

 

[hey_monkey]

The problem is the cop never should have asked her to get out of the car. His ego was bruised and he decided that this woman was going to pay for her defiance. He was going to make her get out of the car, embarrass her in front of passers-by with a pat down because she wouldn't put out a cigarette and wasn't showing him the respect he thought he deserved.

Being a bit of a jerk to an officer should not give the officer the right to escalate the situation. And it was the cop who escalated the situation.

BINGO. Yes, she was wrong when she assumed she didn't have to exit, in legal terms. But it should never have been an issue in the first place.

 

[n64coder]

Even though she had attempted suicide in 2014, or 2015, its unclear. We are still making educated guesses as to how that trashbag got into a noose strong enough to hold her weight, and then how she was able to balance herself and slowly asphyxiate to-death, without breaking the bag or simply knocking herself out and giving herself life-long brain damage.

I don't recall reading any details where the trash bag had to support her weight. I remember seeing an episode of a TV show (The Wire?) or some movie where the guy killed himself by tying something to a doorknob and then leaning back to asphyxiate himself. It's possible that she did something similar.

 

[Who]

Until cops start speaking out against these monstrosities, my stance is: Fuck the Police, all of them.