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[barrico]

In my opinion, the worst thing to happen for a woman is to be born as a woman in Saudi Arabia.

I was born and raised in Saudi Arabia. Let met clarify a few things about the culture there:

1)Women HAVE TO wear hijab, even non-Muslims. Women who chose not to would get in tremendous troubles.

2)In Islam, hijab is mandatory for women. If a woman chose not to wear it, she would still be a Muslim, but by definition she committed a sin. In Islam, a sinful person who did not ask for forgiveness before his or her death and change his behavior will go to hell for a certain period of time for that sin, then he or she will be sent to heavens.

3) Women basically have almost no rights here. They can not drive; they get only have of what males get in inheritance; their witnesses count as half accounts (2 female witnesses = 1 male witness in Islamic and Saudi law).

4) The worst part is that many women like that! Many are so brainwashed that they think Islam is best religious or political system for women! Many women do not want to drive or have things changed. However, this is recently is starting to change.

In my opinion, the worst thing to happen for a woman is to be born as a woman in Saudi Arabia.

I am Muslim, from Bahrain near to Saudi sharing alot of things with them, and we as Bahrainis are far from them in another aspects, what you are saying is just one way to look at things

for the 1st point this is the country regulations every woman should wear it, we can debate about it but that is how their system works

for the 2nd point here comes what we all are trying to say that it is a choice, the choice that you have here is either to fully practice the religion you believed here the you is refering to the girls, they have the choice to wear or not and not being punished by the PEOPLE, if they will be punished by god that is different topic that every religion hoping that they are the correct one.

for 3 point you are mixing alot of things, first being not able to drive is totally differnt than the other points like "they get only have of what males get in inheritance; their witnesses count as half accounts "

because in our religion women are not supposed to fund the famliy it is an only duty for the men, so if your wife is working her salery she doesn't have to spend a penny on either the famliy or even herself it is by law and religion a duty of the man, even the breast feeding for her child she is not obliged to do it, and the husband has to pay her for doing so.

and in the marrige the husband has to pay her what we call it "mahr" and he has to provide all the necessary things flat/house for the ladies.

so in a way there is things taken from the ladies and a lot is giving to them.

Beside that, Saudi is not the only country that represents Islam, because there are a lot of things there related to culture more than related to Islam.

=========

for the said topic, if for safety reasons I agree that she should not be allowed to compete, she should know this from the beginning and they should have informed her

 

[Hindle]

Yet more resentment will be aimed at Muslims for this, you wonder why people are hostile against you heh?

 

[Castor Krieg]

for the 1st point this is the country regulations every woman should wear it, we can debate about it but that is how their system works

It doesn't make it right though. I'm sorry, you cannot use this argument - slavery was legal in the US in 19th century, Nazis had their laws in 1930s Germany, etc. That doesn't make it right.

for 3 point you are mixing alot of things, first being not able to drive is totally differnt than the other points like "they get only have of what males get in inheritance; their witnesses count as half accounts"

because in our religion women are not supposed to fund the famliy it is an only duty for the men, so if your wife is working her salery she doesn't have to spend a penny on either the famliy or even herself it is by law and religion a duty of the man, even the breast feeding for her child she is not obliged to do it, and the husband has to pay her for doing so.

and in the marrige the husband has to pay her what we call it "mahr" and he has to provide all the necessary things flat/house for the ladies.

so in a way there is things taken from the ladies and a lot is giving to them.

Their personal freedom and the right to decide how to live their lives is taken from them. This is universally (at least in the West) thought to be the most basic right a human being should enjoy.

 

[Moral Panic]

Doesn't make it wrong either.

 

[Joel Was Right]

Yet more resentment will be aimed at Muslims for this, you wonder why people are hostile against you heh?

Resenting this girl for wanting to wear it? It says more about them than her

 

[barrico]

It doesn't make it right though. I'm sorry, you cannot use this argument - slavery was legal in the US in 19th century, Nazis had their laws in 1930s Germany, etc. That doesn't make it right.

That is different, this is here a dress code the country are forcing based on a certain philosophy from their religion, it is like when you are working for a a company with certain uniform, and the woman knows this in advance before going to Saudi.

it is not like once they are there, they were surprised by such thing

 

[Castor Krieg]

That is different, this is here a dress code the country are forcing based on a certain philosophy from their religion, it is like when you are working for a a company with certain uniform, and the woman knows this in advance before going to Saudi.

it is not like once they are there, they were surprised by such thing

Then Saudis should just sucked it up and not go to the Olympics to stick up to their beliefs, instead of causing a scene. You don't see Christians being allowed to wear cross necklaces in judo, do you?

 

[shanshan310]

That is different, this is here a dress code the country are forcing based on a certain philosophy from their religion, it is like when you are working for a a company with certain uniform, and the woman knows this in advance before going to Saudi.

Aren't there no tourists allowed in Saudi Arabia? Unless she ends up with a job there, there aren't really any women going to saudi. Most women there would have absolutely no say on the matter, since they were born there.

because in our religion women are not supposed to fund the famliy it is an only duty for the men, so if your wife is working her salery she doesn't have to spend a penny on either the famliy or even herself it is by law and religion a duty of the man, even the breast feeding for her child she is not obliged to do it, and the husband has to pay her for doing so.

and in the marrige the husband has to pay her what we call it "mahr" and he has to provide all the necessary things flat/house for the ladies.

so in a way there is things taken from the ladies and a lot is giving to them.

This to me says less 'women have different rights' and more 'women are still considered delicate flowers men have to look after/ own'.

 

[barrico]

Their personal freedom and the right to decide how to live their lives is taken from them. This is universally (at least in the West) thought to be the most basic right a human being should enjoy.

i have 3 sisters, one married - she was at 20 years old when she married, and one engaged - she was 21 - and the third one she is refusing to get in a relationship before she finishes her BS degree.

My mom were something like Burkaa, yet my dad never inforce anything on my sisters, not the person that they married not the major they want to study - one studied psychology the other IT and the little one she is doing physiotherapy

so I dont see what kind of inforcment you are talking about, yes Hijab is mandatory and we - my dad and me and my big bro - we were too strict in it when they were young, but at the end it is always their choice

to them it is a life style now, that for them they will not change it, they practice the religion that they believed in,they had rights and obligations

 

[Castor Krieg]

i have 3 sisters, one married - she was at 20 years old when she married, and one engaged - she was 21 - and the third one she is refusing to get in a relationship before she finishes her BS degree.

My mom were something like Burkaa, yet my dad never inforce anything on my sisters, not the person that they married not the major they want to study - one studied psychology the other IT and the little one she is doing physiotherapy

so I dont see what kind of inforcment you are talking about, yes Hijab is mandatory and we - my dad and me and my big bro - we were too strict in it when they were young, but at the end it is always their choice

to them it is a life style now, that for them they will not change it, they practice the religion that they believed in,they had rights and obligations

I highlighted some quotes - I find it strange how you are saying "it is always their choice". Ask you dad what he would've done if one of your sisters decided not to wear Hijab and/or go out with non-Muslim, then get back to me, ok?

I would hate to side-track, but concerning the education your sisters had - are they working? Did they had children? Are they considering getting back to work after they get children/get married?


I think we should stop now, the topic was always going to end with Islam vs. X. Let us just wait for Friday and enjoy glorious beatdown.

 

[barrico]

Then Saudis should just sucked it up and not go to the Olympics to stick up to their beliefs, instead of causing a scene. You don't see Christians being allowed to wear cross necklaces in judo, do you?

I said what I belived in, in this case she should know the rules and regulations and if those are based on the safety then this is her mistake.

shanshan310

Aren't there no tourists allowed in Saudi Arabia? Unless she ends up with a job there, there aren't really any women going to saudi. Most women there would have absolutely no say on the matter, since they were born there.

That I don't know, in my job we had a profosional ladies from europe to go to Suadi and they wear hijab.

you have to see the requirements that I needed to fill to get the shangan visa to europe !
I wanted to go knowing the regulations I have fulfilled those needs, it is as simple as that.

This to me says less 'women have different rights' and more 'women are still considered delicate flowers men have to look after/ own'.

well that is how you look at it, which I fully respect your opinion
we look at it differently every one has his/her own rule in this life, men to work woman to be the center of the family and raise the kids

this is the main objective not the only one, as the wife of prophet Mohammed she was a trader from those old days.

my mom is a housewife my wife is a working mom so it is not a rule.

 

[TheContact]

I feel like she's brainwashed. It's like, please mom, let me wear this chastity belt

 

[barrico]

I highlighted some quotes - I find it strange how you are saying "it is always their choice". Ask you dad what he would've done if one of your sisters decided not to wear Hijab and/or go out with non-Muslim, then get back to me, ok?

I would hate to side-track, but concerning the education your sisters had - are they working? Did they had children? Are they considering getting back to work after they get children/get married?


I think we should stop now, the topic was always going to end with Islam vs. X. Let us just wait for Friday and enjoy glorious beatdown.

As a parent you always want what is best for you child, in his -my dad - belief his kids being a very great muslim, so of course he will not be ok with it, it is like I am coming here and askin you how you will feel about your mom - if she is single for what ever reason - and she is dating you freind and I am here asking you how do you feel about it.

the bottom line is, if she is not wearing it - Hijab , I am not allowed to do anything to her nor my dad by law by religion, this is between her and her god and for what ever she believed in.

My feelings are my feelings it has nothing to do with her - rights - I am there for her as a big brother for guidens and advice not to steer her life and tell her to do this and that.

Yes my married sister has 2 sons and she is working, my wife is a working mom as well

 

[jaxword]

I'm sorry, Jaxword, but I don't want to continue this exchange anymore; I feel it to be silly and depressing. I think I've said all I can on this matter.

UPDATE:

Actually I do one thing more to say.

"enforce"
"arrogant"
"dumb"
"defy"
"deluded"
"political statement"
"last minute tantrum"

Not only do you have a poor grasp of the situation, but you've chosen to characterise her in the most incendiary of terms for no apparent reason beyond your own prejudices and presumptions.

She could not have defied the rules, as you claim, as that would imply she would be able to compete regardless. She was neither arrogant or dumb to think she could appeal this rule as there is already a precedence for sporting bodies to reconsider their bans their hijabs. This was not a political statement, and there is no way of knowing whether it was a last-minute "tantrum" because we do not know when they made this request - the only date we know of is when the article with the quotes were published.

Claiming you don't want to continue and then getting in the last word in a childish manner betrays your real intentions.

I presume nothing beyond what the story said. Someone who knew the rules decided they would try and either:
1. Ignore them because they're entitled to.
2. Force the rules to change.

They couldn't do 1. But they succeeded in 2.

Those are the facts.

I see evidence that it was indeed last minute because there is ZERO chance they didn't know about the Olympics and their rules. And hey, they conveniently are hitting the news with their loud statement I WILL NOT COMPETE IF YOU DON'T GIVE ME MY WAY.

I stand by my word choices, especially as they were successful in their goal.

Maybe you should look at your OWN presumptions and prejudices in your desperate attempt to vilify valid criticism. Taking words out of context? That's a Fox news level degree of slimy strawman, and that's just disgraceful debating.

 

[Haunted]

Well, rules are rules*.


*May not apply to the terminally superstitious.

rofl

Well, it's all part of the growing pains trying to get countries with backwards policies integrated into a modern international society.

That said, the IOC realised that she's going to get crushed like a can in the first round anyway. First woman without a black belt participating in an Olympic tournament.

 

[marrec]

I don't like that they've given into these demands, but the precedent has been set.

As I said before, I only hope now that she inspires more Saudi women to strive for great things...

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Jeez you guys, there's nothing wrong with "giving in to demands".
Rules should be flexible and allow for a exceptions on a case-by-case basis (which should pave the way for a change in the rules).

With that said, it looks like there is a legit reason for people not to wear more than the basic judo uniform (choking hazards, etc) so in this particular case I'm disappointed with the IOC.

 

[jaxword]

I don't like that they've given into these demands, but the precedent has been set.

As I said before, I only hope now that she inspires more Saudi women to strive for great things...

Great things like...forcing the rest of the world to accept their religious beliefs > any other rules?

There's nothing great about this at all, I'm really quite disappointed people are blinded to this. The "greatness" of them competing is negated quite soundly by the precedent.

 

[AgentP]

Does she? I'm not seeing any mention of how she feels about it, only her father.

Woman are property there and her opinions are irreverent.

 

[marrec]

Great things like...forcing the rest of the world to accept their religious beliefs > any other rules?

There's nothing great about this at all, I'm really quite disappointed people are blinded to this. The "greatness" of them competing is negated quite soundly by the precedent.

I did not want them to let this happen, I'm only looking for a silver lining and if there is one it will be that it inspires Saudi women to actually compete. Of course it's setting the wrong precedent and it is very unfortunate that the IOC has given into these unreasonable and irresponsible demands... but I'm trying to be optimistic here.

 

[IceCold]

Sheiks released a fatwa saying that Olympians don't need to fast during the Olympics iirc. Can't they do the same for this and allow female Muslim Olympians to not wear a hijab if there's a risk of injury?

Also since hair seems to be the issue, can't they just wear the equivalent of a swimming cap?

 

[marrec]

Sheiks released a fatwa saying that Olympians don't need to fast during the Olympics iirc. Can't they do the same for this and allow female Muslim Olympians to not wear a hijab if there's a risk of injury?

Also since hair seems to be the issue, can't they just wear the equivalent of a swimming cap?

You're asking them to allow women to have more freedoms?

Hmm.........

 

[charsace]

Sheiks released a fatwa saying that Olympians don't need to fast during the Olympics iirc. Can't they do the same for this and allow female Muslim Olympians to not wear a hijab if there's a risk of injury?

Also since hair seems to be the issue, can't they just wear the equivalent of a swimming cap?

Doesn't benefit the men so it had no chance of happening. I think its sad that her father has no concern for her well being because if her opponent gets a hold of that head gear she's in for some pain. I can see her getting blacked out real quick.

 

[Volimar]

Wow, I never knew GAF held the rules of Judo in such high regard. How dare she prefer to obey the cultural rules of her homeland than the international rules of the sport she competes in? After all the Olympics are about representing our country in fair competition, not about actually representing our country in fair competition.

I'm guessing she's allowed to compete wearing the hijab in Saudi Arabia... I wonder how many thousands of crippling injuries and deaths they must contend with there.


If it were up to me, I'd let her wear the sport hijab. The risk seems minimal and she gets no real physical benefit from wearing it. Having said that, I'm also fine with a standard for everyone, and if they didn't know the rules beforehand they should have. The Olympics aren't the place for political or religious statements.

It's really just not that big a deal to me.

Spoiler

inb4 shitstorm OMG you're not actually comparing bla bla bla

 

[charsace]

Wow, I never knew GAF held the rules of Judo in such high regard. How dare she prefer to obey the cultural rules of her homeland than the international rules of the sport she competes in? After all the Olympics are about representing our country in fair competition, not about actually representing our country in fair competition.

I'm guessing she's allowed to compete wearing the hijab in Saudi Arabia... I wonder how many thousands of crippling injuries and deaths they must contend with there.


If it were up to me, I'd let her wear the sport hijab. The risk seems minimal and she gets no real physical benefit from wearing it. Having said that, I'm also fine with a standard for everyone, and if they didn't know the rules beforehand they should have. The Olympics aren't the place for political or religious statements.

It's really just not that big a deal to me.

You do know tht Judoka's train to grip clothes and disable them with right? Its a huge risk to wear something on the head that can be grabbed, used to cover the face and can quickly strangle you. If you have felt a Judoka's grip you wouldn't make this type of post.

 

[MiniBossBattle]

She is a 1st Dan going up against a better trained opponent. I wonder when she trains if her opponents grab her headgear. Religion aside, Judo grabs are no joke. Hate for her to have her headscarf ripped off, it may cause a bigger incident.

 

[Volimar]

You do know tht Judoka's train to grip clothes and disable them with right? Its a huge risk to wear something on the head that can be grabbed, used to cover the face and can quickly strangle you. If you have felt a Judoka's grip you wouldn't make this type of post.

Watched plenty of matches. Don't assume. I sure would make this kind of post. The sports hijab seems like a minimal risk for something she seems to feel strongly about. Surely she wears one when she competes in Saudi Arabia and has thus far managed to dodge the certain deathtrap that people seem to think it is.

If she doesn't wear one while she competes in SA then I have absolutely no problem with them not being allowed to wear it in the Olympics.

Hate for her to have her headscarf ripped off, it may cause a bigger incident.

This occurred to me as well.

 

[Zoe]

She is a 1st Dan going up against a better trained opponent. I wonder when she trains if her opponents grab her headgear. Religion aside, Judo grabs are no joke. Hate for her to have her headscarf ripped off, it may cause a bigger incident.

Wouldn't her normal opponents be Saudi as well? They would probably never think of trying to rip it off.

Can't say the same for the rest of the world though.

 

[Volimar]

Wouldn't her normal opponents be Saudi as well? They would probably never think of trying to rip it off.

Can't say the same for the rest of the world though.

The rest of the world doesn't train to rip off an opponent's head gear. It shouldn't be part of their regimen either so by your own argument it shouldn't come up unless accidentally.

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

She is a 1st Dan going up against a better trained opponent. I wonder when she trains if her opponents grab her headgear. Religion aside, Judo grabs are no joke. Hate for her to have her headscarf ripped off, it may cause a bigger incident.

She's a blue belt. I think there a couple ranks to go before 1st dan.

I'm more qualified to compete in the Olympics than she is.

 

[Moodkip]

woah, she's beautiful. who is this?

 

[Muffdraul]

Nice words but when it comes to islam and muslims there will be a lack of repect. Even a simply thing such as a headscarf which even nuns from christianity wear does not escape sneer and disdain from folks on this thread. So what chance do other practices islam have in general?

Nuns are a very tiny sect of the Christian female population who have freely chosen to "serve the Lord" and thereby have chosen to wear the habit. It's a very different situation from Muslim hijab, where it often doesn't come down to personal choice. I'm not trying to justify "lack of respect" or anything, just pointing out that people should stop bringing up nuns, because it's not an apt analogy at all.

 

[marrec]

Nuns are a very tiny sect of the Christian female population who have freely chosen to "serve the Lord" and thereby have chosen to wear the habit. It's a very different situation from Muslim hijab, where it often doesn't come down to personal choice. I'm not trying to justify "lack of respect" or anything, just pointing out that people should stop bringing up nuns, because it's not an apt analogy at all.

Sadly, it's not very different.

http://www.npr.org/2012/07/25/157356092/bishop-explains-vaticans-criticism-of-u-s-nuns

 

[Muffdraul]

Sadly, it's not very different.

http://www.npr.org/2012/07/25/157356092/bishop-explains-vaticans-criticism-of-u-s-nuns

Not sure how that's relevant. The difference I was pointing out is that nuns have chosen to become nuns. As opposed to Muslim women in general, the vast majority of which were simply indoctrinated from birth. Most Christian women were indoctrinated as well, but very very very few choose to become nuns.

I'm an atheist, I have no sympathy for nuns who are being shat upon by the Vatican.

 

[marrec]

Not sure how that's relevant. The difference I was pointing out is that nuns have chosen to become nuns. As opposed to Muslim women in general, the vast majority of which were simply indoctrinated from birth.

I'm an atheist, I have no sympathy for nuns who are being shat upon by the Vatican.

And as people have pointed out in this thread the wearing of the Hijab is also a choice for many Muslim women.

The point I was trying to make is that both Muslim and Christian women are subject to misogyny when it comes to their religions, Muslims may be the popular target of outrage right now for it, but lets not treat Christianity like it has no blame.

 

[Muffdraul]

And as people have pointed out in this thread the wearing of the Hijab is also a choice for many Muslim women.

There was no need for you to bother. I already made that point myself, it was implicit in "it often doesn't come down to personal choice." Often it does.

And I was shitting on Christianity for decades before I bothered playing the least bit of attention to Islam. All religions are equally shitty in my book.

 

[marrec]

There was no need for you to bother. I already made that point myself, it was implicit in "it often doesn't come down to personal choice."

And I was shitting on Christianity for decades before I bothered playing the least bit of attention to Islam. All religions are equally shitty in my book.

So would the Amish be an apt analogy for you?

Or extremely traditional Jewish sects?

These aren't leading questions, just curious.

 

[Jzero]

She is so going to get owned by the Puerto Rican on Friday

 

[Onemic]

Why did Barrico get banned exactly?

 

[The Faceless Master]

Why did Barrico get banned exactly?

probably for saying Peace Walker is only the 2nd best MGS game...

 

[SquiddyCracker]

I'm guessing she's allowed to compete wearing the hijab in Saudi Arabia... I wonder how many thousands of crippling injuries and deaths they must contend with there.

I doubt even a thousand women compete in Judo back in the S.A.
I'm not even sure a hundred women are.

Lemme google it.

 

[Muffdraul]

So would the Amish be an apt analogy for you?

Or extremely traditional Jewish sects?

These aren't leading questions, just curious.

Maybe, but I'm under the impression that religions like Amish and Russian Orthodox have strict dress codes for all members across the board, not just one sex. And I can't recall the last time I saw an Amish Olympian. =P

 

[Dark Octave]

Why did Barrico get banned exactly?

I was wondering the same thing. I even searched his last few posts and couldn't find a reason that stood out to me.

 

[i-Lo]

The father's shame or image is in question here (because the whole family has to return back home and gossip is big in eastern culture) so most likely we'll never really hear what the girl wanted to do in the first place.

Consequently, what matters is safety and if a hijab-esque head gear as shown in this thread is usable and agreeable then so be it otherwise the athlete might as well leave.

As an agnostic I have no respect for religions' overbearing rules and regulations especially here in the 21st century.

 

[RustyNails]

Nuns are a very tiny sect of the Christian female population who have freely chosen to "serve the Lord" and thereby have chosen to wear the habit. It's a very different situation from Muslim hijab, where it often doesn't come down to personal choice. I'm not trying to justify "lack of respect" or anything, just pointing out that people should stop bringing up nuns, because it's not an apt analogy at all.

[citation needed]

 

[Muffdraul]

[citation needed]

Oh, is it all just a rumor?

Sorry, wasn't aware I was writing a wiki by posting here.

 

[Ydahs]

Yet more resentment will be aimed at Muslims for this, you wonder why people are hostile against you heh?

Not really, the general public probably don't care enough to make a big issue about it. As a Muslim, I couldn't care less if any unfounded resentment comes our way because of this.

The ones making a big issue about it are those raging about them "giving in to the demands" which is a pathetic statement to make.

 

[Lamel]

Oh, is it all just a rumor?

Sorry, wasn't aware I was writing a wiki by posting here.

No but you're generalizing against 1 billion women, based on your own presumptions.

Yet more resentment will be aimed at Muslims for this, you wonder why people are hostile against you heh?

Lol are you serious or joking?

If THIS is something that brings more hostility towards the Muslim world then people need to get their shit together.

 

[marrec]

Maybe, but I'm under the impression that religions like Amish and Russian Orthodox have strict dress codes for all members across the board, not just one sex. And I can't recall the last time I saw an Amish Olympian. =P

Well, Islam has strict dress codes for all members as well, it's the the restrictions on men's clothing is not as limiting. Also the repercussions for men aren't as severe.

 

[Pollux]

Sadly, it's not very different.

http://www.npr.org/2012/07/25/157356092/bishop-explains-vaticans-criticism-of-u-s-nuns

Yea this isn't even remotely comparable. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith did not come down on those nuns for not wearing a habit but for ignoring core Church teachings and promoting heretical viewpoints. Nobody is forced to become a nun, and if the sisters disagree with the Church they are able to leave.

To attempt to compare the situation of a nun with a girl born in Saudi Arabia is disingenuous at best.