Saudi Athlete to Withdraw If Not Allowed to Wear Hijab.

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marrec said:
Perhaps I misspoke when I presumed that the majority were forced into it one way or another. Of course their are general repercussions for all Muslim's depending on what sect/how devout the community. What specifically I'm speaking of though was not addressed by what you've typed. It was frowned upon for men to be very sexually promiscuous but never to the extent that it was for women. The same can be said for disobeying basic religious requirements in some Muslim communities and this includes the wearing of a head covering. The Hijab is not, of course, the most sexist thing about Islam, just one of the most identifiably sexist things by western cultures because they must wear them in public. Not only are the laws against women more restrictive, but the penalties are also more severe.

Again, this is not something that's unique to Islam. We could also, if you wanted to, talk about how women in the Catholic religion all are perfectly fine with not being able to have any position of power within the church, but how that's still a sexist policy.
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If you're going to criticise the hijab, at least do so not from outside looking [well you can do that as well], but also from inside looking out.

This policy of stick with our rules or get the fuck out, no discussion is a problem for me. But they have talked and officials stuck to their guns due to safety concerns. The spirit of Judo comment is bleh.

I'm surprised that Saudi is actually pushing this. They actually want a female competitor in the olympics,? doesn't seem like a typical Saudi thing to do. I reckon there is a lot of pressure being applied on them to get somebody in. Wouldn't be surprised if they picked the one sport that would be most jarring with the headscarf.
 
Ashes1396 said:
What are you talking about? Nobody in their right mind would wear a burka! Dumb traumatised comatose ignorant religious fundamentalist whose husband beats the fuck out of her if she won't is the sole reason for why musilm women in the uk etc wear it. Not choice.

/end of discussion.
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...my wife was a convert? So yes, it (hijab) was a choice. The whole lifestyle was a choice. My wife was walked in on by our apartment maintenance when she wasn't wearing her hijab. She called me, when I was at work, because of how upset she was. I wouldn't have never known if it weren't for her calling me so I can complain to the manager.

(burkahs aren't mandatory by the way.)
 
Ashes1396 said:
I'm surprised that Saudi is actually pushing this. They actually want a female competitor in the olympics,? doesn't seem like a typical Saudi thing to do. I reckon there is a lot of pressure being applied on them to get somebody in. Wouldn't be surprised if they picked the one sport that would be most jarring with the headscarf.
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IOC said they could only field representatives if there were women too...
 
Mellisa Mojica

So here, she goes for a sacrifice throw. You can tell because eh lands to the side of her opponent. Then she establishes side control and chokes her opponent into submission.
 
EviLore said:
She's competing in the olympics and she's not even 1st dan?


...


fedoraokiippon.gif
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what does.combat.sambo have to do with judo?
 
If the hijab can be used to choke her out or if could cause injure to another player, then it shouldn't be allowed.

Anyway, judo has very strict uniform rules and modifications should be reviewed and approved by the governing boards of the sport.
 
I'm a bit torn on this issue. I like the idea of preserving traditions, but making an exception for a Judo certified headscarf (if possible) would be the most progressive action to take. Rules are rules, but when a unique situation like this emerges, they should at least be looked at. I'd like to see an exception made, but I understand if the Judo officials do not budge from their current stance.

On the side-topic of the ill-treatment of women, the Olympic OT is a good place to start. Some pretty poor posts in there.
 
Ydahs said:
I'm a bit torn on this issue. I like the idea of preserving traditions, but making an exception for a Judo certified headscarf (if possible) would be the most progressive action to take. Rules are rules, but when a unique situation like this emerges, they should at least be looked at. I'd like to see an exception made, but I understand if the Judo officials do not budge from their current stance.

On the side-topic of the ill-treatment of women, the Olympic OT is a good place to start. Some pretty poor posts in there.
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I'm avoiding that OT like the plague, it's just Marrec Ban-Bait.
 
They should let her compete. It's obvious SA doesn't want her to. I know its against the rules and safety and all that, but imagine how they'd shuffle and squirm when they found out their little lady was going to be allowed to get down and dirty on a national stage in front of a bunch of infidels. Not only that but get her ass handed to her in the process. Come next Olympics they'd be forced to actually send competent women for some sport or risk another national embarassment because their antics don't work as expected.
 
Seems like a good thing she won't be able to compete. I can imagine the poor girl being beat up by that Melissa Mojica. I feel bad for her that she won't be able to at least try though, Saudi Arabia is one of those countries where it's mandatory to wear them. I highly doubt she will end up participating. A Saudi official said female athletes would have to wear it. Her father said she will not compete if they make her take it off. Even if she had the right to choose for herself, she might be hated for it. It's quite a shame she won't even get the chance to compete, really. But wearing one while doing judo does not seem safe at all.
 
marrec said:
Well it would be nice if she was able to compete and maybe inspire more women athletes from Saudi next go around. If their government would allow it of course...
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With all the hostility towards women and women's sport in general in Saudi Arabia I doubt it. Too bad IOC did not sort this thing out before the representatives arrived in London.

Count Dookkake said:
So the presence of women is only to fulfill a requirement?

Hmm.
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If Saudis gave a damn about women in sport they wouldn't ban majority of sport associations, restricted women from being spectators in sport events, etc. It is not surprising really, when for majority of people in Saudi Arabia the look of woman running is already dirty/shameful/dishonorable.


phosphor112 said:
...my wife was a convert? So yes, it (hijab) was a choice. The whole lifestyle was a choice. My wife was walked in on by our apartment maintenance when she wasn't wearing her hijab. She called me, when I was at work, because of how upset she was. I wouldn't have never known if it weren't for her calling me so I can complain to the manager.

(burkahs aren't mandatory by the way.)
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It might have been a choice but do not dismiss years of growing up in a very specific cultural environment. I'm pretty sure many Muslim women think it is their choice and somehow beneficial to them. That belief doesn't make it so.
 
Saudi judo athlete approved to wear hijab

Saudi kingdom insists Olympian wear a headscarf in judo matches

A female Saudi Arabian judo fighter will be allowed to compete while wearing a hijab, a Saudi Olympic Committee spokesman said Monday.

Razan Baker told CNN that International Olympic Committee, International Judo Federation and Saudi officials had agreed that Wojdan Shaherkani could wear a headscarf during her matches.

Shaherkani had signed an agreement with Saudi Olympics officials that she could compete only if she wears "correct and approved" clothing that "sticks to Islamic principles," Baker said.

This year is the first time every nation competing in the Olympics is sending women as well as men. Saudi Arabia was the last country to announce that it would send female athletes.

Her father, Ali, was adamant that he would not let his daughter compete if she must remove her hijab, he told the Saudi newspaper Al Watan on Monday.

Shaherkani, 16, is scheduled to compete Friday. Her photo on the Saudi team's Olympics website shows her with a scarf that covers her hair but not her face.

Middle distance runner Sarah Attar is the only other woman on the 19-member Saudi team.
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http://www.kitv.com/olympics/Saudi-...15825590/-/120m4y2/-/index.html?absolute=true

I wonder what Christopher Hitchens would have said about this.
 
She has to respect the rules, maybe look into the athletic hijab or something. Otherwise, this is unfortunate.

Also, there is A LOT of ignorance spewed out on this thread. Coming from someone who has lived in a predominantly muslim country (Pakistan), I can tell you the women have choice as to what they wear. Majority don't wear any headgear. Some go to pool in bikinis. Some choose to wear hijab. Some choose to wear Burka. I know MANY personal examples of women who want to wear a burka (Usually 40+). All of you sound dumb as shit with the "no choice" arguments. You can't just ASSUME that because they are muslim women there are men in there family standing behind them forcing them to do something. Lord knows that's not how my family (nor any of my relatives) work.

Edit: Well update on the news. Not sure how I feel about it. Good for her?
 
Saadster said:
You can't just ASSUME that because they are muslim women there are men in there family standing behind them forcing them to do something.
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Yes you can assume that when there is plenty of evidence on the structure of family in Arab countries and how important role male family members play in the lives of their wives/daughters/sisters. Just because you find opposite examples doesn't make it true. It is a fact there are many regions in the Arab world where women are subservient to men, and defying them runs the risk of heavy bodily injury or death.

As for have a choice - I would put Turkey as the country where women have a choice, mostly due to secular influence from the army.

Computer said:
http://www.kitv.com/olympics/Saudi-...15825590/-/120m4y2/-/index.html?absolute=true
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Friday will be glorious!
 
Castor Krieg said:
Yes you can assume that when there is plenty of evidence on the structure of family in Arab countries and how important role male family members play in the lives of their wives/daughters/sisters. Just because you find opposite examples doesn't make it true. It is a fact there are many regions in the Arab world where women are subservient to men, and defying them runs the risk of heavy bodily injury or death.
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I agree with what you are saying, in many arab countries there are examples of that. But Arab =/= Muslim all the time, keep that in mind.

Secondly you can't just GENERALIZE about an enormous population of people. Again you may read stories and articles and have "evidence", but you have no real life experience with the matter. Get some perspective too.

I am not denying the issue, there are truly some backwards ass horrific incidents that occur. But it is extremely offensive when all muslim countries/families/people get generalized against for oppressing females. You guys can sit in front of your computer all day and read all you want, but you have no real life perspective on the matter.


Castor Krieg said:
As for have a choice - I would put Turkey as the country where women have a choice, mostly due to secular influence from the army.
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Again, why don't you think Pakistan is a country where women have choice? It is a muslim country no?

Because majority of the media will depict it as a shit hole at every opportunity they can. But from the people that have lived there, they know it is different. (Again, obviously problems do occur, mainly in the really poor villages).
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ph8EJpkU-4U

I know judo isn't bjj. I've practiced both and judo is basically the more aggressive part of a kimono-grappling fight ( takedown , proceeded by ground fighting ), and judo is like mostly takedowns. still, it's hard for me to come up with a move that will lead to the girl's suffocation or injury when wearing this http://static.dezeen.com/uploads/2011/06/dezeen_Sports-Hijab-by-ResportOn-6.jpg
and chokes are pretty much an essential part anyways in the newaza ( ground fighting ) of judo. if the sport's hijab would lead to a faster choke rate, then that would be her own decision and she'll have to bear the consequence; tapping out =\.
they could have discussed this before sending her
 
Ah, some way I knew they would give into her demands even though nobody would give a shit if she left. Hope she loses because of her Hijab.
 
To those concerned about safety and potential injury... I'm a bit confused. Playing in a Judo match, you can very well get your arm broken or choked until you're unconscious legally. Those are legitimate tactics to win a match. Do people see her getting injured in a different way due to wearing a Hijab? If she gets choked out faster, oh well. It's not like anything was more dangerous, she just lost faster.
 
SmokeMaxX said:
To those concerned about safety and potential injury... I'm a bit confused. Playing in a Judo match, you can very well get your arm broken or choked until you're unconscious legally. Those are legitimate tactics to win a match. Do people see her getting injured in a different way due to wearing a Hijab? If she gets choked out faster, oh well. It's not like anything was more dangerous, she just lost faster.
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I think the comitee's problem was that in judo match that hijab can easily get taken off during the fight. I wonder what will happen if it does? Will that muslim girl just give up and go away? Scream for stop of the match? Continue fighting?
 
Computer said:
http://www.kitv.com/olympics/Saudi-...15825590/-/120m4y2/-/index.html?absolute=true

I wonder what Christopher Hitchens would have said about this.
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Why wonder? Hitchens would most have probably opposed the sheer concept of the Hijab, as he did religion as a whole and Islam specifically. Asking him what he would have thought of this is no different than wondering what a Muslim Imam would think.

If people marked their disapproval initially on the basis of the rules, then they should be comforted by the fact that this decision has been made by those who set the rules in the first place - suggesting her case had enough merit to overweigh the initial disapproval. They came to a compromise which satisfied both parties; the right thing to do. Those who disapproved for reasons beyond the rules, well they can wonder - like you - what Hitchens would have thought.

In the end, another Muslim woman will compete in the Olympics. That is great news.
 
I like how everyone must respect Saudi Arabian's rules of attire and social conventions once you go to Saudi Arabia, yet the rest of the world has to adapt their rules to them once they get out of their country because you know, when in Rome, fuck the Romans because my religion takes precedence over everything. Things are simple: there are places / social clubs / whatever where I wouldn't want to go / visit because of their rules. I wouldn't want them to change for myself, it would be stupidly pretentious for me to do it so. I don't like the fact that I cannot kiss my girlfriend in public in many ME countries, so I simply don't visit them.

About the whole "free woman will on muslim societies" debate, welp, of course there are women that choose to wear that kind of attire of their own will (even if I personally doubt that something as hideous as a burkha would be weared by anoyone on their sane mind, but whatever, I am no fashionist either). The problem is if the playing field is tilted into some direction. Say, I would also be "willing" to wear a certain attire if there's a group of misoginist idiots that would pester and harrass me or call me a whore if I don't. The question is whetever it is a conscious, properly personal and spiritual decision to do it so, or if there's a big deal of societal preassure behind it. It might be both, me thinks.
 
Saudi Arabia should conform to international rules, the rest of the world should not conform to Saudi Arabia.

In doing so it engenders other states to follow Saudi Arabia or to ask for religious or other nonsensical exemptions. You never want to give a mouse a cookie...
 
jaxword said:
No, it's not. It's yet another example of a country/religion forcing the rest of the world to conform to its desires. How is that good?
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With respect, you are being utterly ridiculous.

This is an international event where people of all backgrounds, of which was hinted in what they wore during the opening ceremony parade, come together to compete in sport. As such some of them train and even eat differently - for example, athletes may request a special meal (vegetarian, kosher, or halal). Ultimately, if their requests are reasonable then they can be met. The question here was whether this request was reasonable. At the very least, we've come to establish that she had a compelling reason to bring the issue up. The question therefore was left for the organisers to determine whether that reason was compelling enough to warrant a compromise. It is reported that they "agreed on a design" that, evidently, satisfies their concerns. If there is a rule for X reason but a compromise allows X to not be a concern anymore, then the rule doesn't need to be applied. What this reveals is very simple. If they could not have come to an agreement over what she could exactly wear, then she would not be allowed to compete. The only enforcement that has occurred was from the organisers themselves to invoke this compromise; she only made a request.

How you have translated all this to the hyperbole of "another example of religion forcing the rest of the world to conform to it" is beyond me.

Yesterday, there were at least two instances of competitors lodging a request/appeal with organisers about results to be looked at in a complaint of how judges were scoring the events. The judges then re-examined their performance, discussed it amongst themselves and then changed the scores. Using your logic, these competitors enforced their desires on the rest of the world. No. They made a request. The request was deemed reasonable and their complaint with merit.

The only way your point would be valid were if she was banned from competing but managed to get into the match wearing an illegal item and the match being allowed to continue regardless. None of that happened.
 
In my opinion, the worst thing to happen for a woman is to be born as a woman in Saudi Arabia.

I was born and raised in Saudi Arabia. Let met clarify a few things about the culture there:

1)Women HAVE TO wear hijab, even non-Muslims. Women who chose not to would get in tremendous troubles.

2)In Islam, hijab is mandatory for women. If a woman chose not to wear it, she would still be a Muslim, but by definition she committed a sin. In Islam, a sinful person who did not ask for forgiveness before his or her death and change his behavior will go to hell for a certain period of time for that sin, then he or she will be sent to heavens.

3) Women basically have almost no rights here. They can not drive; they get only have of what males get in inheritance; their witnesses count as half accounts (2 female witnesses = 1 male witness in Islamic and Saudi law).

4) The worst part is that many women like that! Many are so brainwashed that they think Islam is best religious or political system for women! Many women do not want to drive or have things changed. However, this is recently is starting to change.

In my opinion, the worst thing to happen for a woman is to be born as a woman in Saudi Arabia.
 
Jason Raize '75 - '04 said:
The question here was whether this request was reasonable. At the very least, we've come to establish that she had a compelling reason to bring the issue up.
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Yeah, let's think about that "compelling reason." She knew the rules before she entered the competition, yet intended to defy them from the start. She decided to wait until the last minute to throw a tantrum which also conveniently gets a lot of media attention.

She knew what was going to happen, unless you seriously want to make the argument she and her team were too ignorant to read the rules beforehand.

Either she and her team are some of the the most deluded, arrogant people possible to the point of thinking the rules shouldn't apply to them because God said so...or they knew exactly what they were doing and wanted to make a political/religious statement to get the rules changed for them.

Which is it?
 
Supermanisdead said:
Good for her. It was a silly rule. "spirit of judo" lol.
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This is rather offensive, being a really old sport that many respect, as someone already said, why can't they respect japanese culture? I might as well say, "hijabs, LOL".

I do hope she doesn't get in any danger, or her opponent, I doubt it will be life threatening but serious injuries can occur with stuff like fingers, I don't know much about Judo, so well I just hope for the best, I guess (hope) the people that know realized it doesn't pose any danger.

It saddens me though, the Olympics should be about celebrating sports, not making political statements.
 
jaxword said:
Yeah, let's think about that "compelling reason." She knew the rules before she entered the competition, yet intended to defy them from the start. She decided to wait until the last minute to throw a tantrum which also conveniently gets a lot of media attention.

She knew what was going to happen, unless you seriously want to make the argument she and her team were too ignorant to read the rules beforehand.

Either she and her team are some of the the most deluded, arrogant people possible to the point of thinking the rules shouldn't apply to them because God said so...or they knew exactly what they were doing and wanted to make a political/religious statement to get the rules changed for them.

Which is it?
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There is a precedent of women being allowed to compete in a headscarf in the past, one as recently as July by FIFA, whilst they were not permitted to do so before.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2012/07/05/fifa-lifts-hijab-ban.html
http://www.aljazeera.com/sport/2009/09/200991621752992657.html

You cannot defy the rules, its not possible, as that would imply she would be able to compete regardless. What is more likely is that she either assumed she would be allowed to compete with the headscarf, or intended to appeal by making this request for the organisers to re-examine their rules in consideration of her reasoning, and that reasoning (which you've either failed to mention or realise) is that the hijab is mandatory.

I don't understand why you're opting to choose to view this as some kind of villainous ploy or political statement and frankly I don't honestly care. What I will say though, however, is that not only are you demonstrably with your assertions but are completely over-reacting.
 
Jason Raize '75 - '04 said:
What is more likely is that she either assumed she would be allowed to compete with the headscarf, or intended to appeal by making this request for the organisers to re-examine their rules in consideration of her reasoning, and that reasoning (which you've either failed to mention or realise) is that the hijab is mandatory.
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That is what I just said:

jaxword said:
Either she and her team are some of the the most deluded, arrogant people possible to the point of thinking the rules shouldn't apply to them because God said so...or they knew exactly what they were doing and wanted to make a political/religious statement to get the rules changed for them.

Which is it?
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Why did you repeat my own query back without answering on your own?

Which is it?
 
jaxword said:
That is what I just said:


Why did you repeat my own query back without answering on your own?

Which is it?
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I'm sorry, Jaxword, but I don't want to continue this exchange anymore; I feel it to be silly and depressing. I think I've said all I can on this matter.

UPDATE:

Actually I do one thing more to say.

"enforce"
"arrogant"
"dumb"
"defy"
"deluded"
"political statement"
"last minute tantrum"

Not only do you have a poor grasp of the situation, but you've chosen to characterise her in the most incendiary of terms for no apparent reason beyond your own prejudices and presumptions.

She could not have defied the rules, as you claim, as that would imply she would be able to compete regardless. She was neither arrogant or dumb to think she could appeal this rule as there is already a precedence for sporting bodies to reconsider their bans their hijabs. This was not a political statement, and there is no way of knowing whether it was a last-minute "tantrum" because we do not know when they made this request - the only date we know of is when the article with the quotes were published.
 
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