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[womfalcs3]

So how many female athletes does Saudi Arabia have? Oh wait...

In the Olympics? We don't even have males good enough to contend for medals. That goes into the lack of athletic development. Even our soccer team, which we used to take pride in, is playing poorly right now.

In terms of the ability for men and women to exercise, there's plenty of opportunity. Many women work out regularly. If they don't exercise, it's by choice, not by government intervention.

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

That was an Ippon point. Just one if those is all you need to win a Judo match. She didn't submit, afaik.

I thought it was ippon, then submission for a set number of time?

I dunno, I'm not familiar with judo, I've only started to take a couple classes to beef up my jiu jitsu.

 

[Baki]

You know what's ironic. The fact that the people who champion "Freedom" & "Democracy" tend to get up in arms when a woman wears something that they believe is an act of a 'backwards religion'. You see, if you were truly champions of "Freedom", you would support the right for a woman to wear what she wants (including religious attire which may be alien to you, with the reasonings being further alien). [Now this isn't applicable to people who are 'forced' to wear it, although people always assume this is the case]

Now the above is one of example of the hypocrisy that is prevalent in the attitudes of alot of people on this forum. I think the problem stems from the fact that a lot of people are unable to see things from beyond their own narrow viewpoint, the arrogance to assume that their way of life is the superior one & the fact that they take the media representation of a country(s) as the reality of living there.

Now before people jump on me, I do want to make a few things clear. The first, I'm not disregarding the problems that may exist in communities, countries etc.. But what I am asking is for people to open their eyes a little bit and stop looking down from your ivory towers as if your way of living is the most superior.

 

[Brazil]

I thought it was ippon, then submission for a set number of time?

I dunno, I'm not familiar with judo, I've only started to take a couple classes to beef up my jiu jitsu.

The fight is over the moment an ippon is applied. There was no submission or whatever.

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

The fight is over the moment an ippon is applied. There was no submission or whatever.

I see. OK.

That just went by alot quicker than I had imagined it would.

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

You know what's ironic. The fact that the people who champion "Freedom" & "Democracy" tend to get up in arms when a woman wears something that they believe is an act of a 'backwards religion'. You see, if you were truly champions of "Freedom", you would support the right for a woman to wear what she wants (including religious attire which may be alien to you, with the reasonings being further alien). [Now this isn't applicable to people who are 'forced' to wear it, although people always assume this is the case]

Now the above is one of example of the hypocrisy that is prevalent in the attitudes of alot of people on this forum. I think the problem stems from the fact that a lot of people are unable to see things from beyond their own narrow viewpoint, the arrogance to assume that their way of life is the superior one & the fact that they take the media representation of a country(s) as the reality of living there.

Now before people jump on me, I do want to make a few things clear. The first, I'm not disregarding the problems that may exist in communities, countries etc.. But what I am asking is for people to open their eyes a little bit and stop looking down from your ivory towers as if your way of living is the most superior.

Yo dawg, she got whupped.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

You know what's ironic. The fact that the people who champion "Freedom" & "Democracy" tend to get up in arms when a woman wears something that they believe is an act of a 'backwards religion'. You see, if you were truly champions of "Freedom", you would support the right for a woman to wear what she wants (including religious attire which may be alien to you, with the reasonings being further alien). [Now this isn't applicable to people who are 'forced' to wear it, although people always assume this is the case]

Now the above is one of example of the hypocrisy that is prevalent in the attitudes of alot of people on this forum. I think the problem stems from the fact that a lot of people are unable to see things from beyond their own narrow viewpoint, the arrogance to assume that their way of life is the superior one & the fact that they take the media representation of a country(s) as the reality of living there.

Now before people jump on me, I do want to make a few things clear. The first, I'm not disregarding the problems that may exist in communities, countries etc.. But what I am asking is for people to open their eyes a little bit and stop looking down from your ivory towers as if your way of living is the most superior.

Rules are Rules

 

[SquiddyCracker]

In the Olympics? We don't even have males good enough to contend for medals. That goes into the lack of athletic development. Even our soccer team, which we used to take pride in, is playing poorly right now.

In terms of the ability for men and women to exercise, there's plenty of opportunity. Many women work out regularly. If they don't exercise, it's by choice, not by government intervention.

I think people are pointing towards the culture rather than direct government intervention.
How is for an example female athleticism viewed in Islam and S.A culture?
I have no idea, and I'd rather not guess.

 

[Joel Was Right]

You know what's ironic. The fact that the people who champion "Freedom" & "Democracy" tend to get up in arms when a woman wears something that they believe is an act of a 'backwards religion'. You see, if you were truly champions of "Freedom", you would support the right for a woman to wear what she wants (including religious attire which may be alien to you, with the reasonings being further alien). [Now this isn't applicable to people who are 'forced' to wear it, although people always assume this is the case]

Now the above is one of example of the hypocrisy that is prevalent in the attitudes of alot of people on this forum. I think the problem stems from the fact that a lot of people are unable to see things from beyond their own narrow viewpoint, the arrogance to assume that their way of life is the superior one & the fact that they take the media representation of a country(s) as the reality of living there.

Now before people jump on me, I do want to make a few things clear. The first, I'm not disregarding the problems that may exist in communities, countries etc.. But what I am asking is for people to open their eyes a little bit and stop looking down from your ivory towers as if your way of living is the most superior.

You should have seen the thread where people supported a ban on Burkhas on the basis of a woman's freedom, bemoaning the thought of women being prohibited by their husbands or families to wear what they want. It was surreal because these weren't just off-handed comments, but actual arguments. They concluded that, ultimately, we knew what was best for women regardless of what she may think or want (her opinions lacked credibility, it was suggested). I think one of these posters was female too.

 

[electristan]

Found a video LINK

just managed to watch the whole thing, she seemed very out of league, well done though for giving it a go.

 

[deadlast]

She was wearing a black belt in the comp. So she is a black belt, just no a very good one.

Also when did Judo change it's belt system? When I was going (about 10 year ago), it was White - Brown - Black - Red & White - Red. I think little kids got colored belts, but not adults.

 

[gutter_trash]

She was wearing a black belt in the comp. So she is a black belt, just no a very good one.

Also when did Judo change it's belt system? When I was going (about 10 year ago), it was White - Brown - Black - Red & White - Red. I think little kids got colored belts, but not adults.

she's a blue belt in reality. The blackbelt was just the olympic gi

 

[marrec]

You should have seen the thread where people supported a ban on Burkhas on the basis of a woman's freedom, bemoaning the thought of women being prohibited by their husbands or families to wear what they want. It was surreal because these weren't just off-handed comments, but actual arguments. They concluded that, ultimately, we knew what was best for women regardless of what she may think or want (her opinions lacked credibility, it was suggested). I think one of these posters was female too.

I think there is there is legitimacy to using Burkhas and Hijabs to represent the repression of women's rights in some Islamic countries, but a lot of people (including me) find it hard to build a connection between a Hijab and an honest choice made on the part of the woman. I'm slowly coming to the realization that Islam, like all religions, are mostly made up of adherents that don't feel they are repressed and are perfectly happy in their lives.

What we as freedom loving peoples need to do is move away from the idea that a Hijab is a physical representation of misogyny and instead focus on the sinister problems that Islamic women face everyday.

 

[SmokeMaxX]

She was wearing a black belt in the comp. So she is a black belt, just no a very good one.

Also when did Judo change it's belt system? When I was going (about 10 year ago), it was White - Brown - Black - Red & White - Red. I think little kids got colored belts, but not adults.

I've learned to ignore what Judokas have on in real competitions. Too much changing around the outfit just to make the sport more audience friendly. "You have to wear a blue gi" "you have to wear a blue belt" blah blah blah.

 

[Baki]

Yo dawg, she got whupped.

Rules are Rules

Talk about missing the point of my post (as a sidenote: Ofcourse she was going to get whooped. It was basically Bane vs catwomans sister.)

You should have seen the thread where people supported a ban on Burkhas on the basis of a woman's freedom, bemoaning the thought of women being prohibited by their husbands or families to wear what they want. It was surreal because these weren't just off-handed comments, but actual arguments. They concluded that, ultimately, we knew what was best for women regardless of what she may think or want (her opinions lacked credibility, it was suggested). I think one of these posters was female too.

Finally, someone that knows how to read! Yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[F#A#Oo]

What we as freedom loving peoples need to do is move away from the idea that a Hijab is a physical representation of misogyny and instead focus on the sinister problems that Islamic women face everyday.

Indeed...

@baki

nice post...shame few will take it on board.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

Talk about missing the point of my post (as a sidenote: Ofcourse she was going to get whooped. It was basically Bane vs catwomans sister.)



Finally, someone that knows how to read! Yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about.

Oh I understand I was just saying(as someone who was against her wearing it) that I only cared because it was a rule. If it hadn't been a rule I have no problem with someone wearing one if they want to.

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

Talk about missing the point of my post (as a sidenote: Ofcourse she was going to get whooped. It was basically Bane vs catwomans sister.)

I purposely missed the point. Mainly because I feel the whole hijab thing, is secondary to Saudi's inability to field a legit athlete in a sport where they could be competitive.

 

[Ikael]

You know what's ironic. The fact that the people who champion "Freedom" & "Democracy" tend to get up in arms when a woman wears something that they believe is an act of a 'backwards religion'.

I am in arms because yet again religious extremists thinks that they are entitled to a treatment different to the rest of the humans because of their religion makes them super - duper special and above the rules of the commonfolk. Look, she can wear a hijab, or a burka or a Borat - like leopard tanga at her home if she wants, as long as it is her choice. I don't claim to have telepathic powers that allows me to see what is on her mind when she decides to wear these clothes.

But she knew (or should know) perfectly what the rules of an Olympic judo competition are yet deliberately decided that they should not apply to her since the rules of her faith must be above the rules of men. Sorry, but that's bullshit of the highest order.

 

[Jim]

Came across an amusing photo from the match this morning. She's like "oh shit!"

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-33747_1...n-82-seconds-but-predicts-a-new-era-for-women

Lasted 82 seconds

 

[Alucrid]

whose age is given as 16 by Olympic organizers, but 17 or 18 by her father, and 19 on the Saudi Olympic website

wat

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

Came across an amusing photo from the match this morning. She's like "oh shit!"

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-33747_1...n-82-seconds-but-predicts-a-new-era-for-women

Lasted 82 seconds

Man she looks sick.

 

[Ydahs]

I am in arms because yet again religious extremists thinks that they are entitled to a treatment different to the rest of the humans because of their religion makes them super - duper special and above the rules of the commonfolk. Look, she can wear a hijab, or a burka or a Borat - like leopard tanga at her home if she wants, as long as it is her choice. I don't claim to have telepathic powers that allows me to see what is on her mind when she decides to wear these clothes.

But she knew (or should know) perfectly what the rules of an Olympic judo competition are yet deliberately decided that they should not apply to her since the rules of her faith must be above the rules of men. Sorry, but that's bullshit of the highest order.

You're being both incredibly ignorant and melodramatic here. First off, religious extremists? Just because they're from Saudi Arabia, they're classified as extremists? That's ridiculous.

There is nothing wrong with requesting considerations to allow all walks of life to compete in an international event, encouraging people from all races and religions. They found a solution that works for all. She's now free to represent her country at the Olympics, good on her.

Seriously, stop focusing on the non-issue and look at the bigger picture:

"I am happy to be at the Olympics," she whispered in Arabic, her brother, Hassan, holding both her arms. "Unfortunately, we did not win a medal, but in the future we will and I will be a star for women's participation."

Later, she sat on a sofa in her judo pants and a black Saudi Arabia track jacket and hijab, her father's arm around her shoulder.

"I was scared a lot, because of all the crowd," she said, giggling and animated as she answered questions from a small group of journalists, and vowed to be ready to compete again when the games move to Rio de Janeiro in 2016. "It was the opportunity of a lifetime."

Her father, Ali, a judo referee, told The Associated Press he "cried like a baby" watching his daughter compete.

"She was happy and smiled when she finished the fight. She hugged me and said: 'Daddy, I did this.' I was so proud," he said.

It didn't take long for voices of support to pour in — from the Olympic village and around the Middle East.

"Saudi judoka Wojdan Shahrkhani lost to her much more experienced competitor ... but many are proud of her," Saudi blogger and journalist Ahmed Al Omran tweeted.

Another Saudi resident, Alaa Al-Mizyen, added: "Wojdan remains a winner to me and millions of men AND women around the world."

Rafid Fatani, a Saudi-born man who has a blog called Saudi Root wrote, "I'll walk out later with the Saudi flag around my neck & my head up high as if we won the biggest gold medal in the history of the Olympics."

At the ExCel center, fans said they were thrilled to have witnessed history, even if the level of judo wasn't anything to write home about.

"I thought it was great, it's like a little piece of history that we saw this morning because it hasn't happened before," said Orla O'Connor, 33, from Cork in Ireland.

Mark Adams, a spokesman for the International Olympic Committee, hailed the participation of Shahrkhani and a female athlete from Qatar who competed in another event.

"It is a great symbol. It is a great message to women in those countries," he said. "Did we expect them to win gold medals? Probably not, but they're here, they're competing and I think we should be very happy."

Shahrkhani's opponent also had kind words, and said fears the hijab would get in the way, or even be dangerous, were overblown.

"There was no problem at all with the hijab. I think everyone has a right to their religion and to be given an opportunity," Mojica said. "This is no problem in judo."

In many ways, however, the young Saudi's story is just beginning.

Back home, some hard-liners have urged her not to jeopardize her place in the afterlife for a fleeting bit of fame on earth. Others have warned that she and her family could face ostracism when she goes home.

"She will definitely face difficulties (back home)," Hashem Abdo Hashem, editor-in-chief of Saudi's Arabic daily newspaper Okaz, told The Associated Press. "The society here will look at her negatively."

A Saudi Arabian woman just competed at the Olympics. It's a historical moment for women in Saudi Arabia and will hopefully pave the way for more women participation in the future.

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

It's a historical moment for women in Saudi Arabia and will hopefully pave the way for more women participation in the future.

I certainly hope it will pave the way to legitimate competitors from Saudi Arabia in the Olympics.

But, I feel her inclusion was a sham.

I know someone had to go, per the edicts of the IOC. But you would think it would start with more grassroots women's sports programs putting foward real competitors. Not some blue belt who had no business being on the mat.

 

[F#A#Oo]

I certainly hope it will pave the way to legitimate competitors from Saudi Arabia in the Olympics.

But, I feel her inclusion was a sham.

I know someone had to go, per the edicts of the IOC. But you would think it would start with more grassroots women's sports programs putting foward real competitors. Not some blue belt who had no business being on the mat.

The Saudi people need to continue their struggle internally against the clerics who are quite clearly bonkers and only support regressive things in society...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXd7Rm-BHG8&feature=plcp

It will take time but eventually I do believe that some things will change in Saudi...

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

The Saudi people need to continue their struggle internally against the clerics who are quite clearly bonkers and only support regressive things in society...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXd7Rm-BHG8&feature=plcp

It will take time but eventually I do believe that some things will change in Saudi...

Good on them.

 

[-COOLIO-]

so in retrospect, the hijab thingy is actually safer that a tied up pony tail

 

[GungHo]

so in retrospect, the hijab thingy is actually safer that a tied up pony tail

People don't usually throw people by their hair in Olympic Judo.

 

[the_log_ride]

Found a video LINK

just managed to watch the whole thing, she seemed very out of league, well done though for giving it a go.

Damn, any links for US viewers? Fell asleep just before this took place

 

[Dark Octave]

Came across an amusing photo from the match this morning. She's like "oh shit!"

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-33747_1...n-82-seconds-but-predicts-a-new-era-for-women

Lasted 82 seconds

How long do they usually last? I expected more like 10 or 15 seconds.

Looks like she just has a beenie or a wave cap on.

 

[Jzero]

Damn, any links for US viewers? Fell asleep just before this took place

Nope i can't find any.

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

Nope i can't find any.

http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/judo/highlights-saudi-arabias-first-female-olympian.html

 

[B-Dubs]

How long do they usually last? I expected more like 10 or 15 seconds.

Looks like she just has a beenie or a wave cap on.

Seriously I expected like 20 seconds tops. Good on her not getting killed.

 

[Jzero]

http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/jud...-olympian.html

Thanks. that was pretty lame to be honest.

 

[kobashi100]

You know what's ironic. The fact that the people who champion "Freedom" & "Democracy" tend to get up in arms when a woman wears something that they believe is an act of a 'backwards religion'. You see, if you were truly champions of "Freedom", you would support the right for a woman to wear what she wants (including religious attire which may be alien to you, with the reasonings being further alien). [Now this isn't applicable to people who are 'forced' to wear it, although people always assume this is the case]

Now the above is one of example of the hypocrisy that is prevalent in the attitudes of alot of people on this forum. I think the problem stems from the fact that a lot of people are unable to see things from beyond their own narrow viewpoint, the arrogance to assume that their way of life is the superior one & the fact that they take the media representation of a country(s) as the reality of living there.

Now before people jump on me, I do want to make a few things clear. The first, I'm not disregarding the problems that may exist in communities, countries etc.. But what I am asking is for people to open their eyes a little bit and stop looking down from your ivory towers as if your way of living is the most superior.

funny seeing people call for freedom and democracy blah blah blah but get wound up and offended over a piece of cloth.

Its okay for women in society to wear as little as they want but soon as woman wants to cover up people start to act very silly.

Take france and other countries for example. You can include some muslim countries in that also.

 

[liger05]

You know what's ironic. The fact that the people who champion "Freedom" & "Democracy" tend to get up in arms when a woman wears something that they believe is an act of a 'backwards religion'. You see, if you were truly champions of "Freedom", you would support the right for a woman to wear what she wants (including religious attire which may be alien to you, with the reasonings being further alien). [Now this isn't applicable to people who are 'forced' to wear it, although people always assume this is the case]

Now the above is one of example of the hypocrisy that is prevalent in the attitudes of alot of people on this forum. I think the problem stems from the fact that a lot of people are unable to see things from beyond their own narrow viewpoint, the arrogance to assume that their way of life is the superior one & the fact that they take the media representation of a country(s) as the reality of living there.

Now before people jump on me, I do want to make a few things clear. The first, I'm not disregarding the problems that may exist in communities, countries etc.. But what I am asking is for people to open their eyes a little bit and stop looking down from your ivory towers as if your way of living is the most superior.

If more women in tunisia and egypt start to wear the hijab or even niqab just watch the reaction. It will be the usual 'islamists are making women cover up' headlines.

What amazes me is why people care so much. Here in the UK you have people who get wound up if they have to sit at a bus stop next to a women covered head to toe. I dont understand the facination.

 

[Castor Krieg]

You're being both incredibly ignorant and melodramatic here. First off, religious extremists? Just because they're from Saudi Arabia, they're classified as extremists? That's ridiculous.

No, they are classified as extremists because they preach an EXTREME version of Islam.

What amazes me is why people care so much. Here in the UK you have people who get wound up if they have to sit at a bus stop next to a women covered head to toe. I dont understand the facination.

What is there to understand? Western societies view the cloth used to cover Muslim woman as enslavement. I do not understand what is so difficult about it.

 

[IceCold]

If more women in tunisia and egypt start to wear the hijab or even niqab just watch the reaction. It will be the usual 'islamists are making women cover up' headlines.

What amazes me is why people care so much. Here in the UK you have people who get wound up if they have to sit at a bus stop next to a women covered head to toe. I dont understand the facination.

I think it's because some people view it as a them alienating themselves and not integrating in the the society they live in.

 

[Pollux]

What is there to understand? Western societies view the cloth used to cover Muslim woman as enslavement. I do not understand what is so difficult about it.

Enslavement? Hyperbole much?

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

It's always been my opinon that the hijab covers the head.

 

[mantidor]

funny seeing people call for freedom and democracy blah blah blah but get wound up and offended over a piece of cloth.

Its okay for women in society to wear as little as they want but soon as woman wants to cover up people start to act very silly.

Take france and other countries for example. You can include some muslim countries in that also.

The hijab is very sexist, there is no equivalent for males, and is only because of sexist attitudes. Is probably no different from things like heels, although the origin of both are diametrically opposite, the end is the same, women are objectified, treated as merchandise, or property.

In summary, being a woman still sucks in most of the world, which is a real shame, however if I were to be a woman, and I could chose where to be born and live, I would stay the fuck out of islamic countries and Asia for sure. And not because such innocuous thing as hijab, people don't get worked up just because is a piece of cloth, is because is a reminder of the other, not nice things about how women are treated under Islam.

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

The hijab is very sexist, there is no equivalent for males, and is only because of sexist attitudes. Is probably no different from things like heels, although the origin of both are diametrically opposite, the end is the same, women are objectified, treated as merchandise, or property.

In summary, being a woman still sucks in most of the world, which is a real shame, however if I were to be a woman, and I could chose where to be born and live, I would stay the fuck out of islamic countries and Asia for sure. And not because such innocuous thing as hijab, people don't get worked up just because is a piece of cloth, is because is a reminder of the other, not nice things about how women are treated under Islam.

Well, it certainly sounds like you have a final solution.

 

[mantidor]

Well, it certainly sounds like you have a final solution.

woah, wat?

 

[Joel Was Right]

The hijab is very sexist, there is no equivalent for males, and is only because of sexist attitudes. Is probably no different from things like heels, although the origin of both are diametrically opposite, the end is the same, women are objectified, treated as merchandise, or property.

In summary, being a woman still sucks in most of the world, which is a real shame, however if I were to be a woman, and I could chose where to be born and live, I would stay the fuck out of islamic countries and Asia for sure. And not because such innocuous thing as hijab, people don't get worked up just because is a piece of cloth, is because is a reminder of the other, not nice things about how women are treated under Islam.

In my opinion, the perception some have of the Hijab, or Burkha, or any individual aspect of a Muslim woman's lifestyle is perpetuated not by a single impression of that aspect, but rather one of Muslim women in general being oppressed, and so by extension - through that prism of preconceived belief - they are likely to view aspects like the Hijab as a characteristic of oppression rather than the cause of it.

This is why it is so difficult to discuss e.g. the Hijab or Burkha because ultimately the discussion isn't about these pieces of clothing but rather what they suggest to an already established attitude about the woman wearing it. And from reading these attitudes, I am convinced these people have hardly ever spoken to a single Muslim woman let alone enough of them to form an anecdotal opinion. But to them I say this: to you, they may be "enslaved", oppressed, brainwashed, etc, but that may not be what they feel about themselves or how they see their women. Maybe they are actually genuine not only content but choose to wear these without suggestion or demands from others but out of their own desire? If you struggle in the comprehension of that, if you cannot understand why someone may have the audacity to differ in opinion to you, your logic and ethics, then perhaps it is you who needs some liberating.

That doesn't mean women dont face issues, particularly in Saudi Arabia - even a fundamentalist would decry at some of the laws there, laws that are being challenged by women themselves coincidentally. But what frustrates me most is the inability demonstrated by many here to understand that you cannot use your own society/culture as a template to measure the ethics of another, especially in the case of "Well if they disagree then they must have been brainwashed". The only place i've seen logic like that are by hardcore extremists

 

[Fenderputty]

Enslavement? Hyperbole much?

Maybe not enslavement. But the western world definitely views it as a way to repress women, and a way for men to treat them in a more possessive manner.

 

[JiuJitsuka]

The hijab is very sexist, there is no equivalent for males, and is only because of sexist attitudes. Is probably no different from things like heels, although the origin of both are diametrically opposite, the end is the same, women are objectified, treated as merchandise, or property.

In summary, being a woman still sucks in most of the world, which is a real shame, however if I were to be a woman, and I could chose where to be born and live, I would stay the fuck out of islamic countries and Asia for sure. And not because such innocuous thing as hijab, people don't get worked up just because is a piece of cloth, is because is a reminder of the other, not nice things about how women are treated under Islam.

Every woman has the choice to wear whatever she desires, ranging from mini skirts to hijabs. And Islam promotes this personal freedom of choice, unlike what many muslims believe.

edit: just noticed that this is getting all a bit off topic, we got that islamic thread because this will just go on and on.

 

[Fenderputty]

In my opinion, the perception some have of the Hijab, or Burkha, or any individual aspect of a Muslim woman's lifestyle is perpetuated not by a single impression of that aspect, but rather one of Muslim women in general being oppressed, and so by extension - through that prism of preconceived belief - they are likely to view aspects like the Hijab as a characteristic of oppression rather than the cause of it.

This is why it is so difficult to discuss e.g. the Hijab or Burkha because ultimately the discussion isn't about these pieces of clothing but rather what they suggest to an already established attitude about the woman wearing it. And from reading these attitudes, I am convinced these people have hardly ever spoken to a single Muslim woman let alone enough of them to form an anecdotal opinion. But to them I say this: to you, they may be "enslaved", oppressed, brainwashed, etc, but that may not be what they feel about themselves or how they see their women. Maybe they are actually genuine not only content but choose to wear these without suggestion or demands from others but out of their own desire? If you struggle in the comprehension of that, if you cannot understand why someone may have the audacity to differ in opinion to you, your logic and ethics, then perhaps it is you who needs some liberating.

That doesn't mean women dont face issues, particularly in Saudi Arabia - even a fundamentalist would decry at some of the laws there, laws that are being challenged by women themselves coincidentally. But what frustrates me most is the inability demonstrated by many here to understand that you cannot use your own society/culture as a template to measure the ethics of another, especially in the case of "Well if they disagree then they must have been brainwashed". The only place i've seen logic like that are by hardcore extremists

Yeah, but how much of this has to do with culture and bring brought up that way? We are all prodcuts of our environment to a certain extent. Just because there's genuine use of the Hijab doesn't neccesarily make it great.

Kidna like our gender roles here in the states. Girls like pink, boys like blue. Girls like dolls, guys like GI Joe. Girls play tea party, guys play sport.

My mom loves her gender rols though so ... who am I to judge.

 

[JiuJitsuka]

Yeah, but how much of this has to do with culture and bring brought up that way? We are all prodcuts of our environment to a certain extent. Just because there's genuine use of the Hijab doesn't neccesarily make it great.

Kidna like our gender roles here in the states. Girls like pink, boys like blue. Girls like dolls, guys like GI Joe. Girls play tea party, guys play sport.

My mom loves her gender rols though so ... who am I to judge.

well said. care to join for a tea =D =P

 

[HoodWinked]

womans in this weight division is pretty bad and boring, 82 seconds for an ippon is like the equivalent of an instant loss in any other weight division.

she looked pretty lost during the competition.

 

[GungHo]

womans in this weight division is pretty bad and boring, 82 seconds for an ippon is like the equivalent of an instant loss in any other weight division.

she looked pretty lost during the competition.

I think her opponent took pity on her.