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Scuffle in Japan's Upper House as Controversial Military Bill enters Final Vote Stage

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T

TheRealTalker

Banned
Lock if old
Despite Protests the upper house panel has given the green light to new legislation allowing the armed forces to conduct warfare abroad, for the first time in 70 years, since the end of WWII.
Click to expand...

Kinda late to this (18 hours ago) but the Upper House had a scuffle over it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91qXpHL0vlQ

Japan is expected to pass controversial security bills on Friday that critics say could herald the biggest shift in its defence policy for half a century... The bills are expected to be passed in the upper house controlled by prime minister Shinzo Abe’s ruling coalition after days of fraught debates...

Opposition lawmakers tried every delaying tactic at their disposal, even resorting to physically blocking a vote in a special committee, but it now looks like all of their options have been exhausted.

Opponents argue the new laws – which would allow the tightly restricted military to intervene overseas to defend its allies – violate Japan’s pacifist constitution and could see the country dragged into American wars in far-flung parts of the globe.

But despite months of fierce opposition, Abe now looks set to enact what critics say could be the biggest shift in Japan’s defence policy since when his grandfather was in power 55 years ago...

Unable to muster support to amend clauses enshrining pacifism, Abe opted instead to re-interpret the document for the purpose of his bills, ignoring warnings from scholars and lawyers that they are unconstitutional.
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More here
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/17/japan-to-pass-security-bills-despite-protests



Anyone from JapanGAF here? What is the main reaction from the public (other then those protestors).... Positive, Negative, Or not caring....

------------------------------------------------------------
UPDATE:Japan Passes Bill Lifting Military Restrictions

Japan's parliament has voted to allow the military to fight overseas for the first time since the end of World War Two 70 years ago.
A vote on the constitutional amendment was delayed for several hours as the opposition tried to stop the measure coming into law.
Outside, demonstrators rallied in a last-ditch show of protest.
Many Japanese are attached to the pacifist provisions in the constitution which banned fighting overseas.
The bills have already passed through the government-dominated lower house.
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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-34287362
So it is done they bill has been fully passed
 
A

AgentOtaku

Member
In the USAF myself as well as just a bit of a fan of military history and yeah, this is pretty fascinating and thanks for sharing
 
L

lupinko

Member
There's been lots of protests of anti-war/gutting of article 9 where I live (Sendai).

Many really hate Abe, to the point where they would have him dressed up as Hitler in protest signs.
 
C

CarpeDeezNutz

Member
Man, I remember seeing a bunch of Asian parliament fights in vids, I wonder how Obama would throw some bows. Biden would bum rush them fools. Cruz would be crying in the corner but I think Jeb! Would hold his own.
 
H

HideyoshiJP

Member
As much as it does nothing, it's a shame US Congress isn't that passionate when discussing far-reaching security bills that affect all Americans, like spying funny business.

I'm not in Japan, but I've had my eye on this. I know it's pretty unpopular, to put it mildly. According to an Asahi Shinbun poll from late August, only 30 percent of respondents expressed support of the legislation.
 
T

TheRealTalker

Banned
AgentOtaku said:
In the USAF myself as well as just a bit of a fan of military history and yeah, this is pretty fascinating and thanks for sharing
Click to expand...
no problem man :)
lupinko said:
There's been lots of protests of anti-war/gutting of article 9 where I live (Sendai).

Many really hate Abe, to the point where they would have him dressed up as Hitler in protest signs.
Click to expand...

I see... this does indeed seem to be a big deal

a change for current Japan.... I just wonder how it would effect the countries future policies stepping forward or if it could be reversed later on

Thanks for your reply
HideyoshiJP said:
As much as it does nothing, it's a shame US Congress isn't that passionate when discussing far-reaching security bills that affect all Americans, like spying funny business.

I'm not in Japan, but I've had my eye on this. I know it's pretty unpopular, to put it mildly. According to an Asahi Shinbun poll from late August, only 30 percent of respondents expressed support of the legislation.
Click to expand...

thanks for that poll link
 
P

ponpo

( ≖‿≖)
Maninthemirror said:
Did they not see the lessons of history of trying to intervene militarily in countries abroad ?
Click to expand...

I don't think they actually want to go colonize places, but the examples they use are kind of weird.

Last one I saw on TV was Abe talking about like a US battleship with children on board getting attacked near China and Japan not being able to help so this needs to be changed lol.

Whatever leads to mechs the earliest is fine by me #IStandWithAbe

Korey said:
Isn't there a treaty or something prohibiting them from doing this?
Click to expand...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_9_of_the_Japanese_Constitution
 
P

phaonaut

Member
HideyoshiJP said:
As much as it does nothing, it's a shame US Congress isn't that passionate when discussing far-reaching security bills that affect all Americans, like spying funny business.

I'm not in Japan, but I've had my eye on this. I know it's pretty unpopular, to put it mildly. According to an Asahi Shinbun poll from late August, only 30 percent of respondents expressed support of the legislation.
Click to expand...

They would be fighting each other over who gets to sign it first.
 
S

squeakywheel

Member
My wife is Japanese and she's keenly listening to the news daily. Everyone we know in Japan hates this bill. All the young men we know are afraid in the case of war, they'll be drafted. A few folks we know in the SDF are ready to quit. They signed up for peacekeeping, not war.
All our friends and acquaintances want Abe out but his party is popular with the elderly and the rich (sound familiar?).
 
S

SURGEdude

Member
squeakywheel said:
My wife is Japanese and she's keenly listening to the news daily. Everyone we know in Japan hates this bill. All the young men we know are afraid in the case of war, they'll be drafted. A few folks we know in the SDF are ready to quit. They signed up for peacekeeping, not war.
All our friends and acquaintances want Abe out but his party is popular with the elderly and the rich (sound familiar?).
Click to expand...

What is it with right leaning people and war mongering? Is it just purely the money or what?
 
E

erpg

GAF parliamentarian
Putting your population in danger makes sense when it's already rapidly shrinking.


Might as well go out with a bang, right?
 
P

ponpo

( ≖‿≖)
squeakywheel said:
My wife is Japanese and she's keenly listening to the news daily. Everyone we know in Japan hates this bill. All the young men we know are afraid in the case of war, they'll be drafted. A few folks we know in the SDF are ready to quit. They signed up for peacekeeping, not war.
All our friends and acquaintances want Abe out but his party is popular with the elderly and the rich (sound familiar?).
Click to expand...

Can't they just add provisions like

a. A country has to ask Japan for assistance
b. House has to vote to authorize sending any
c. They can only send x % of the JSDF to assist

People you know are really worried about a draft? Seems insanely alarmist. I don't think the empire is about to rise again.
 
F

Frozenprince

Banned
It's honestly a miracle that people in Japan are actually giving a shit about politics for once. In Shiga nooooooooobody gave a fuck.
 
M

Miles Quaritch

Member
ponpo said:
I don't think they actually want to go colonize places, but the examples they use are kind of weird.

Last one I saw on TV was Abe talking about like a US battleship with children on board getting attacked near China and Japan not being able to help so this needs to be changed lol.

Whatever leads to mechs the earliest is fine by me #IStandWithAbe
Click to expand...

The obvious question here is why are there children on a battleship?
 
D

dabig2

Member
SURGEdude said:
What is it with right leaning people and war mongering? Is it just purely the money or what?
Click to expand...

F.U.D
Fear, uncertainty, doubt. It's what helps keep the authoritarian types in power because you give the populace limited options - ride with me or die and see your loved ones die and your kids die because the barbarians are at the gate and we have to hold at all costs because they will kill you and destroy our way of life.

The money, of course, is a big allure, but it's more about staying in power which just happens to have the side effect of earning more money.
 
B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
SURGEdude said:
What is it with right leaning people and war mongering? Is it just purely the money or what?
Click to expand...

In Japan? I think it's 90%+ nationalism, and wanting to be self sufficient and strong.

The Japanese are by and large very proud of themselves, and think of themselves as apart and different from the rest of the world. In many people this is healthy (it may be the same feeling that motivates appreciation for their unique position as pacifists).. but obviously there is a nationalist right wing that sees the American-imposed pacifism as a noose around their neck.
 
J

Jintor

Member
I saw anti-war posters all over the place out in areas of Kanto when I was travelling. I haven't been playing attention here back home and most of the people I interact are not of political-caring age, so I've not a great idea. I might head down to Osaka to see a protest or something though.

ThatCrazyGuy said:
What is driving this action?

To up military spending and drive that machine? They feel threatened by china or nk?
Click to expand...

Abe's excuse is the Chinese giant and NK. Further motives might be more ideological than anything, but who knows.
 
DrunkandDrunker

DrunkandDrunker

Member
bomma_man said:
What's the process for judicial review in japan? Given that this is prima facie unconstitutional.
Click to expand...

Pretty much like the US. Ashwander rules and all.
The fucked up part? The Japanese never asked for article 9, nor the SDF. Some 20 something idealist who had no idea about Asian Regional politics forced article 9. Then shit hit the fan and MacArthur begged Japan to rearm. Any straight interpretation would render SDF unconstitutional with article 9 paragraph 2, that's why the SDF was called a reserve police unit at first.

Ashibe, a renowned constitutional scholar in Japan has written in his constitution text book that the SDF is unconstitutional. But no supreme court ruling exists where the SDF has been ruled unconstitutional, none. With this new security law, Ashwander rules should apply and the court will avoid answering the constitutionality of it if a case were to be brought up.

This security law, is basically Japan/LDP begging US forces to remain in Japan and Asia. Much to the chagrin of Okinawans and even the people near the capital where there are abundance of US bases, which is unheard of for an independent sovereign nation. Imagine having a Canadian Air force base near Washington D.C. It's stupid. And yet the people elected the LDP....
 
I

ISOM

Member
HideyoshiJP said:
As much as it does nothing, it's a shame US Congress isn't that passionate when discussing far-reaching security bills that affect all Americans, like spying funny business.

I'm not in Japan, but I've had my eye on this. I know it's pretty unpopular, to put it mildly. According to an Asahi Shinbun poll from late August, only 30 percent of respondents expressed support of the legislation.
Click to expand...

The history is different though. Japan has been a pacifist nation for decades and is now changing that. It's probably worrying for a lot of the average japanese citizen.
 
M

Maledict

Member
totanka said:
Pretty much like the US. Ashwander rules and all.
The fucked up part? The Japanese never asked for article 9, nor the SDF. Some 20 something idealist who had no idea about Asian Regional politics forced article 9. Then shit hit the fan and MacArthur begged Japan to rearm. Any straight interpretation would render SDF unconstitutional with article 9 paragraph 2, that's why the SDF was called a reserve police unit at first.

Ashibe, a renowned constitutional scholar in Japan has written in his constitution text book that the SDF is unconstitutional. But no supreme court ruling exists where the SDF has been ruled unconstitutional, none. With this new security law, Ashwander rules should apply and the court will avoid answering the constitutionality of it if a case were to be brought up.

This security law, is basically Japan/LDP begging US forces to remain in Japan and Asia. Much to the chagrin of Okinawans and even the people near the capital where there are abundance of US bases, which is unheard of for an independent sovereign nation. Imagine having a Canadian Air force base near Washington D.C. It's stupid. And yet the people elected the LDP....
Click to expand...

Um, there are American bases all over Europe. Even in the UK the U.S. has military bases and stores missiles here. It's by no means unusual. The UK has military bases in other independent sovereign nations as well.
 
G

gconsole

Member
totanka said:
Pretty much like the US. Ashwander rules and all.
The fucked up part? The Japanese never asked for article 9, nor the SDF. Some 20 something idealist who had no idea about Asian Regional politics forced article 9. Then shit hit the fan and MacArthur begged Japan to rearm. Any straight interpretation would render SDF unconstitutional with article 9 paragraph 2, that's why the SDF was called a reserve police unit at first.

Ashibe, a renowned constitutional scholar in Japan has written in his constitution text book that the SDF is unconstitutional. But no supreme court ruling exists where the SDF has been ruled unconstitutional, none. With this new security law, Ashwander rules should apply and the court will avoid answering the constitutionality of it if a case were to be brought up.

This security law, is basically Japan/LDP begging US forces to remain in Japan and Asia. Much to the chagrin of Okinawans and even the people near the capital where there are abundance of US bases, which is unheard of for an independent sovereign nation. Imagine having a Canadian Air force base near Washington D.C. It's stupid. And yet the people elected the LDP....
Click to expand...

Hmm, I thought the opposite. Why beefing up army will beg for US to stay? It's more like Japan can now legally join the war on foreign if it need to. Pretty much legalize japanese army like any other country.
 
N

Nivash

Member
ISOM said:
The history is different though. Japan has been a pacifist nation for decades and is now changing that. It's probably worrying for a lot of the average japanese citizen.
Click to expand...

It really shouldn't be. The only thing this will do is put Japan on the same legal level in regard to overseas deployment as pretty much every other nation on the planet. I understand if people don't trust Abe but it's not as if he suggested they put the Emperor back on the throne, changed the flag to the rising sun and suggested they invade the Philippines.

Japan isn't pacifist and hasn't been for ages. They operate the most powerful navy in Asia, second only to the US fleets operating in the region, and one of the most capable in the world. Their air force operates more combat aircraft than the RAF. Their ground forces are larger than the French Army. They have the 7th largest military budget in the world, larger than both Germany and South Korea. The problem is that the constitution forces isolationism and makes it virtually impossible for Japan to ally with anyone but the United States. This will be unworkable in the future. China is a rising superpower and they have a bone to pick with Japan and the support of Russia who also have a bone to pick with them. Japan needs alliances and military cooperation with other Asian countries.

Simply losing the constitutional pacifism isn't going to solve that on its own, obviously, but it's a necessary step. After that they need to break with the diplomatic isolationism and make amends with South Korea and the other nations they savaged during WWII. If they don't do this China will isolate and dominate them and their decline will turn into a collapse over time.
 
Z

zelas

Member
If this is so unconstitutional, do they have a branch of government similar to the supreme court that can throw this out? Once laws are passed are people just screwed?
 
N

Nivash

Member
SG-17 said:
Japan is still technically at war with Russia too. I don't trust someone like Abe to not be a warhawk.
Click to expand...

Just because there's no formal peace treaty doesn't mean they're at war. They have de facto peace. And what, are you worried Abe will send the JDMSF to bombard Vladivostok or something? Japan has something to fear from Russia, not the other way around. It's Russia that's been increasing tensions over the Kurils, not Japan.

http://thediplomat.com/2015/09/japan-wary-of-rising-russia-threat-ex-defense-minister/
 
Coreda

Coreda

Member
T6ZyODy.gif
 
D

dofry

That's "Dr." dofry to you.
This is very worrisome as this will lead to escalation of conflicts in the future with actual fights. I am a positivist and a bit naive by nature but even I see this as a very bad turn for Japan.
My Facebook page has been filled with posts on the protests even though most of the regular folks are pretty indifferent.
In addition, news are regulated so people can't see on tv what is happening in the streets.
 
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