kame-sennin
Member
Democracy is awesome.
Scuffle in Japan's Upper House as Controversial Military Bill enters Final Vote Stage
- Thread starter TheRealTalker
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Democracy is awesome.
These bills don't do anything to directly address those. Currently, Japan has very stringent rules about deploying JSDF soldiers to places like Iraq or Afghanistan, and these bills are designed to loosen those rules. It doesn't do anything to directly impact Japanese security agreements which is why the Abe government had to concoct all sorts of convoluted scenarios to sell the idea to the Japanese people.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Yeah. Like when the US occupied Japan and wrote their pacifist constitution that they're so passionately defending.
You don't have to undeclare war. This isn't the playground
robotzombie
Member
are you sure that wasn't just a train entrance?
I was thinking of WWE and McMahon being Abe all along
Mr Fahrenheit
Member
I'd say more people are worried about the isolationist tendencies of Japan being threatened, as it stands they're really in a perfect spot where they're a top player in the world market with their exports going pretty much everywhere, and at the same time they can just kind of keep to themselves on everything else without getting dragged through the mud. That's a pretty sweet deal.
I guess I can get that maybe supporters may think that the rest of the world doesn't take Japan seriously anymore because of that so they want to be able to get out their and show them, but that's the thinking that got them into WWII.
But I ain't from Japan.
I guess I can get that maybe supporters may think that the rest of the world doesn't take Japan seriously anymore because of that so they want to be able to get out their and show them, but that's the thinking that got them into WWII.
But I ain't from Japan.
More like Android NeoGaf.
Yaphett Kotto
Member
I'm seeing this more like Japan wanting to prepare for the worse because of China claiming shit that isn't theirs like with the Senkaku Islands and waters that allegedly hold oil reserves (unless that is confirmed now). It could also be a reaction to both Korea's skirmish last month but I feel that is a stretch. I'm definitely not understanding people thinking this is will be like WWII.
AcademicSaucer
Member
Japan needs to send its young people to die in foreign wars, thats a great idea.
Mr Fahrenheit
Member
They should make it so you can only get drafted if you aren't married, that'll solve one of their problems.
It feels much more like one of Abe's pet projects. The only thing that it does in regards to China is to push Russia, South Korea, and Taiwan into the Chinese camp. There isn't much danger of armed conflict between these countries in the foreseeable future, but there is a great deal of international relationship positioning going on in East Asia. And on that front, Japan's actions have been leaving themselves more alone.
Yaphett Kotto
Member
SDF is an all-volunteer force. Unless they change that and allow drafting, but it will be considered a violation of Japan's constitution by people against it.
I do feel Abe is falling back on China and NK as reasons to pass this as well and there is of course low probability we will ever see any real conflict in East Asia.
But I wouldn't necessarily say Japan has is totally isolating themselves unless we are not counting the US.
LegendofJoe
Member
Japan needs to find a way to make nice with China without completely capitulating. They have so much to gain from a closer relationship with China, antagonizing them is dumb. But they can't roll over and let them have their way either. Honestly, they're in one of the toughest situations of any country in the world when it comes to international politics. There are no easy solutions for them.
I think their best bet is to cooperate with China as much as they reasonably can and pull back somewhat on their alliance with the United States. That said they shouldn't pull back too much because we're the only thing preventing China from attempting to throw around their weight militarily down the road. It's an extremely delicate line to walk, but it's in their best interests.
I think their best bet is to cooperate with China as much as they reasonably can and pull back somewhat on their alliance with the United States. That said they shouldn't pull back too much because we're the only thing preventing China from attempting to throw around their weight militarily down the road. It's an extremely delicate line to walk, but it's in their best interests.
Valkerionseven
Member
Watched this live a few days ago. Abe and his possy just walk out like its not their business and a few older dudes just sit back in their chairs laughing because they know it will go through and this is just a show to them.
Crazy stuff, even more crazy is this happens multiple times a year. Though this one was a bit more rough than others haha.
Crazy stuff, even more crazy is this happens multiple times a year. Though this one was a bit more rough than others haha.
Frozenprince
Banned
If people cared more about politics this never would have happened to begin with because Abe never would have gotten re-elected.
But it's just not something a majority of people care about until it's too late to change things.
Ayato Kanzaki
Member
Their constitution could also be seen as a symbol of shame. A constant reminder that they lost in a previous war, and were imposed limitations no other country has to deal with.
I don't see the problem with turning the JSDF into an official army. They aren't going to suddenly turn expansionist, and there are cases where armed intervention on foreign soil is the decent thing to do.
Besides, wanting Japan to be unable to act outside it's borders, while also wanting western nations and the UN to do something about ISIS, sound a bit hypocritical to me.
The problem is that the US has been in Japan's corner since the 1950's and these bills would do nothing to strengthen that support. And that on any foreign affairs issue other than defense, closer ties with the other East Asian countries are probably more useful than American support.
Japan is so geographically isolated and territorially secure that international politics should have been quite easy for them. And in fact, they used to have pretty good relations with just about all of their neighbors other than North Korea. Even the territorial disputes with China/Taiwan and South Korea were stable and without much acrimony. This should all be attainable again, but not with Abe as prime minister.
There's no need to pull back for the US. The US asks almost nothing from Japan other than a few diplomatic gestures, so as long as they maintain those, all will be fine. The question of China is a lot trickier, and I think that Japan has to ask themselves what China's future role is in East Asia, and whether they can (or should) do anything about it. There are going to be a bunch of unpleasant truths in that examination.
Why do you assume that the Japanese public has any pull on Japanese politics?
The problem is that it doesn't do anything to increase Japan's security and it weakens Japan's political position in East Asia.
CadetMahoney
Member
pretty much.
Valkerionseven
Member
Basically. Everyone is suddenly vocal and protesting and its like.... you had years to notice these people were no good.
TheRealTalker
Banned
Valkerionseven
Member
Not surprised.
superseohyun
Member
good luck with asian relationship, japan.
hydrophilic attack
Member
All countries lose a war in the end. Who gives a fuck? They should move the fuck on.
If anything, they should be ashamed of the atrocities they committed in the war, not for losing.
WonkyPanda
Member
Just read the report of it passing. Crazy News.
ThreePiMatt
Member
To be fair, its not like China was going to become less aggressive if this bill didn't exist.
Mechanized
Member
What is the point of this? What do they gain from it?
In theory Japan will be less isolated from their allies, they'll be more able to stand up to China/NK and more military spending will help stimulate their economy. In theory...
The reality of the bill is its meant to strengthen Japan as a regional power more than any sort of going out into the world stuff. Japan and Korea are the only Nations with any sort of Military power in that region that is not 100% dependent on the United States that balances against China. If Politicians continue to get elected that feel America needs to continue retreating from the world stage then countries like Japan will need to be picking up the slack in heir own backyard
Makes sense.
I had forgotten about China's growing reach in the South China Sea and the animosity between them involving those Diaoyu Islands (among other things).
But doesn't Japan already have a robust military Self-Defense Force?
What does fighting overseas entail? Because that seriously sounds like joining Western military excursion into places like the ME.
Retromelon
Member
Sure does. It seems those two groups are the only ones that care about voting no matter what country is being talked about
Armed Hostage rescue at the very least.
Up until now if you were a Japanese national and you were kidnapped and held ransom outside of the JSDF operating limit. You were basically dead. As constitution forbade Japan from using all parts of its military overseas.
Japan would basically have to beg another nation like the U.S. to risk the lives of its special forces soldiers to rescue you. Under this new bill, Japanese special forces can now be allowed to rescue you themselves.
The Algerian hostage crisis of 2013 highlighted this well. 10 of the 37 victims were Japanese, and in the event that the Algerian government accepted a foreign special forces group to operate in their country, Japan would have not been allowed per its constitution.
juicyfruitas
Member
Another one was the takeover of the Japanese Embassy in Peru back in 1996 from Tupac Amaru guerillas.
The siege lasted 126 days and came to an end because once Peruvian Special Forces bum rushed the joint with one of the hostages dying in the process.
The siege lasted 126 days and came to an end because once Peruvian Special Forces bum rushed the joint with one of the hostages dying in the process.
They're not going to bomb anyone, but it does free the JSDF to deploy overseas. The immediate effects will mean that Japan will be more able to support missions in the Middle East and the like. The main secondary effect will be to strengthen China's position with South Korea and give them political cover for more aggressive moves.
Valkerionseven
Member
Their navy is one of the most well equipped in the world despite being a self defense force. Not largest, but well equipped for stopping any sea incursions. But yeah as a whole its always been a pretty well off "not-army" lol.
As for the second part, that's part of what made it so controversial. Not just that it allows for fighting abroad, but its fairly vague and ability to be interpreted poorly in both ways. They added parts like "if it threatens Japan" and what not but still does not make it clear.
bigmit3737
Member
Was there any pressure from the US to have this bill passed? Now of the US gets attacked Japan can help.
Really all the bill does is give Japan the ability to react on the global stage that until now its been prohibited from doing. The reality is the Government will still be heavily constrained by the populous. There is no way Japan is going to suddenly leap onto the global scene and throw weight around etc.
The Government does need to look at the security of the Nation though and the regional realities of Chinese expansionism even when the populous has become increasingly pacifist.
Thanks for the replies, y'all.
The ramifications of an unleashed Japanese military force is honestly a bit scary, given how nationalism drove them to commit some brutal shit in the last world war.
They probably won't ever succumb to that again anytime soon, given how pacifist the populace is right now.
None whatsoever. While the Americans welcomed the move, this is purely an Abe decision.
It's not really that scary any more. The main reason that Imperial Japan did so much damage in World War II was because there was a large power vacuum in East Asia. This is no longer the case, so even if Japan regained their old national ambitions it wouldn't do much. Besides, even though the JSDF is well equipped overall, it's lacking in power projection and offensive weaponry so it can't hurt any of its neighbors.
Antiochus
Member
Apparently some Japanese college students have organized protests against the bill, which is something relatively novel considering the apathy and deracination the youth there are characterized:
https://www.facebook.com/saspl21
https://www.facebook.com/saspl21
Unknown Soldier
Member
I actually wonder if real change will come to Japan's political system because of the fallout from this. It sure would be nice if the world's 3rd largest economy saw some real political reforms.
The good news is that China and South Korea will scream bloody murder if anything actually became of this.
The good news is that China and South Korea will scream bloody murder if anything actually became of this.
Soyongdori
Member
South Korea rarely cared about it. So calm down with hyperbole.
The only country that would go batshit over this would be China, as they are currently contesting Japan's islands and maritime territories.
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