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[Gestault]

If it's in the interests of the writers behind the game, I think historical settings are a great canvas for specifically juxtaposing a cultural/racial minority. In the same ways games rely on making the playable character "the new guy" as a storytelling mechanic, I think if history is part of the value of the setting, having a point of contrast for the player's perspective can make a lot of sense. Having peripheral characters raise questions or create conflict in response to that cultural/racial oddity can be valuable.

 

[Cocaloch]

He's being hostile because you're unironically suggesting something outright paradoxical. Let's play your game and take these things at a perceived "accurate" valuation. If werewolves were real, it shakes up substantial notions established by both fact and physics, including evolution, conservation of energy, parasitic commensalism, metabolism, properties of particular compounds such as silver and their newfound ties to the arcane, lunar cycles, and potentially opens the door to magic's inclusion in the real world, if we attempt to analyze the origin of werewolves. That serves to breed a world so imperceptibly alien to our own that its outcome is outright esoteric. Now, let's see what happens if everyone's given equal rights in Victorian London: a single powerful city's sociopolitics are shaken up to a degree and a white-dominant patriarchy dissolves. Not a state's, not a federation's, not a country's, not a world's. A single city happens to have made some strides of activism. The world, as a collective whole, continues business as normal while London enjoys a post-racial environment. If you were to make the argument that these revelations were made in Victorian London and then explored in a modern era, sure, the world may have some different views on culture and it wouldn't be completely "faithful" to our world. But this is still a chronistically self-contained hypothetical about Victorian London, which is already comparing mountains to molehills in terms of variations. That's why he's getting upset.

I've already said all I need to say, but to conclude, there are some strong insecurities at play for you to realistically suggest a localized establishment of equality would somehow jeopardize or even offend a people

This is however a historical argument, and I would like to point out a couple of things. For one thing a racially equal London really would almost certainly mean an equally racially equal Britain. You could still have elements of the Empire, but there would be no Casus Belli for much of the Imperialist fevor that swept the nation in the 19th century. I think historical circumstances would still result with Britain in India, but everything after that would be have played out quite differently. As a result the Empire would also be very very different from what we actually got in the period.

Moreover, "ome strides", is misrepresenting just how far Britain was from any idea of racial equality. This was a society that was literally predicated on the idea of the innate superiority of certain peoples.

That is certainly an interesting construct.

Sorry, what I was getting at is that it would have had less of an effect on the historical development of Britain. Things for Britain, and as Britain was the major power player of the world in this century, would have played out much much differently. I honestly think werewolves existing would change very little about the historical development of most things unless they were extremely common.

True. I didn't realize we were arguing about having a black guy in the main main cast. At the same time though...why's there a woman in the cast? Doesn't that take suspension of belief too?

Yeah, that would definitely need to be mentioned at length in the narrative. It's probably more out there than the racial thing.

 

[TheBlackMarvel]

No. I'm saying it would have less impact than a racially equal British empire, moreover I don't think that is close to a contentious statement, though it is quite bizarre.

In most of my posts I have been going off of the assumption that the setting would be important to the story. I mentioned multiple times however that this was an assumption, and that if the Victorian stuff was just visual fluff then what I'm saying holds no water.

We have literally no evidence for a historical Arthur's knights, in fact he almost certainly wouldn't have had any knights since the feudal system didn't exist in such a manner in the 5th and 6th centuries. Ironically your wider point here is actually plausible. It's fairly reasonable to posit that some African mercenary troops could have been available to a historical Arthur.

Yeah, I'm not speaking to a "historical" Arthur, I'm speaking to the legend. Where we have ample evidence that a number of his knights were not British. Arthur having black knights was never a point I was trying to make.

Frankly, I don't think we're going to see eye to eye in this discussion and I'm no longer interested in repeating myself. I will however, be very interested in seeing the lengths The Order goes to in justifying the non-historical elements and wonder exactly what it was about black people that would have been too much to believe.

One way to look at it so that you might understand some others' perspectives on it may be something like this: Adding something foreign to Victorian London (for example, werewolves) doesn't outright alter the sort of mental landscape the average person has of Victorian London. They just take 'thoughts about setting X' and add 'concept Y'.

Removing one of the most glaringly obvious aspects of Victorian London (for example, extreme racial prejudice) has somewhat of a different effect than if you were to just add some fantastical thing to the setting.

Peoples' minds aren't so simple as to work solely in terms of some kind of believability index, so it's not that odd to see someone who has no problem adding a fantastical concept, but has some difficulty removing an ingrained aspect of the setting that they're already aware of.

I don't personally care very much one way or the other what The Order does with the racial makeup of their cast. I generally want better and more varied representation across the board, but one game in particular with at least some kind of justification for its homogenous cast doesn't bother me too much. I just would like some people here to understand that there are people out there who absolutely aren't harboring some kind of subconscious racist notions that do still hold the sorts of opinions that you're ridiculing.

Interesting how having werewolves is adding but having black people is removing.

 

[User 73706]

To anyone who suggests werewolves wouldn't bring about substantial change unless they had sufficient numbers, consider the fact that they spread virally. On top of this, imagine trying to kill a wolf barehanded. Now imagine having to try and kill a superhuman wolfman who you have an emotional attachment to in the form of their prior human. Anyone that wasn't slain unsuspectedly by a werewolf would likely become one. It would basically become an obtuse bastardization of Attack on Titan. The idea that they would do nothing to affect London, let alone the world, other than "being werewolves" is nothing short of unbelievable.

 

[D i Z]

This is however a historical argument, and I would like to point out a couple of things. For one thing a racially equal London really would almost certainly mean an equally racially equal Briton. You could still have elements of the Empire, but there would be no Casus Belli for much of the Imperialist fevor that swept the nation in the 19th century. I think historical circumstances would still result with Britain in India, but everything after that would be have played out quite differently. As a result the Empire would also be very very different from what we actually got in the period.




Yeah, that would definitely need to be mentioned at length in the narrative. It's probably more out there than the racial thing.

Just wanted to point out that you keep pressing this ( the bolded) , it has no bearing in the fiction that is being talked about.
Even in Penny Dreadful, there are characters of color.
We're not talking about equal representation, we're talking about the chance to not perpetuate the erasure of even existing from history completely.

And to actually contribute a pick, I'll go with Bayonetta. Only a white woman could get away with the heresy that she does, the straight up heel kick that she does, simply because she's desirable. I can't think of any other ethnicity that wouldn't lose their minds if a woman tore down religion the way that she has.

 

[redcrayon]

I kinda dislike zeroing in on individual games for not having a diverse racial cast amongst four or five main characters, all upper-class nobles, where the main draw is a victorian setting where the upper-class nobility was overwhelmingly white. British knightly orders today aren't particularly diverse in terms of sheer statistics. Isn't the problem more that games as a whole doesn't have enough diversity amongst their lead protagonists, something we need to address, rather than The Order in particular being, well, out-of-order for it's all-white cast? I'd rather we saw more interesting casts (including ones that don't include any white guys at all) than have each cast have to represent everyone, although sure, it sucks that few are willing to take that step. The focus on historical connotations for including specifically black characters in The Order is also a bit US-centric because GAF is. Fine for GTA etc, but if it's set in the UK, a knight of Indian, Arabian or Eastern European descent would be just as applicable.

 

[TheBlackMarvel]

I kinda dislike zeroing in on individual games for not having a diverse racial cast amongst four or five main characters, all upper-class nobles, where the main draw is a victorian setting where the upper-class nobility was overwhelmingly white. British knightly orders today aren't particularly diverse in terms of sheer statistics. Isn't the problem more that games as a whole doesn't have enough diversity amongst it's lead protagonists, rather than The Order being, well, out-of-order for it's all-white cast? I'd rather we saw more interesting casts (including ones that don't include any white guys at all) than have each cast have to represent everyone. The focus on historical connotations is also a bit US-centric because GAF is. Fine for GTA etc, but if it's set in the UK, a knight of Indian, Arabian or Eastern European descent would be just as applicable.

People are singling out The Order because it was brought up as a justified example and some of us feel otherwise. It's highly amusing how slavishly devoted to "the setting" people get when it's the race of characters but anything else, no matter how outside of the norm is totally justifiable.

 

[PBalfredo]

I like how in a topic about context-justified characters, we're all speculating about a game that's not even out yet, so we lack the context to determine if its characters are justified.

 

[bishoptl]

I think he just means it wouldn't be 1800s Britain without the racism.

But it would with werewolves? themoreyouknow.jpg

People are singling out The Order because it was brought up as a justified example and some of us feel otherwise. It's highly amusing how slavishly devoted to "the setting" people get when it's the race of characters but anything else, no matter how outside of the norm is totally justifiable.

Interesting how having werewolves is adding but having black people is removing.

It's expected, despite being pretty tired. With that said...

I like how in a topic about context-justified characters, we're all speculating about a game that's not even out yet, so we lack the context to determine if its characters are justified.

This is a good point. I'm going to wait until The Order is out before commenting on it, in fairness to the developers. For all we know, they could be pulling a Metal Gear Solid 2

 

[Cocaloch]

I like how in a topic about context-justified characters, we're all speculating about a game that's not even out yet, so we lack the context to determine if its characters are justified.

You're absolutely right, I'm going to bow out of this thread now. I just want to apologize if I offended anyone. I got involved with this discussion because it was related to something I am quite interested in, namely the representation of history in games. But this is a touchy, and real enough, discussion that it doesn't need to be bogged down by something tangentially related. I'm a full member now, so I might get around to actually making a thread about the broader place of history in games in the future.

 

[Giever]

Interesting how having werewolves is adding but having black people is removing.

I anticipated my point being framed that way, but decided to give the benefit of the doubt so I didn't have to clarify in advance. I guess I should have. In all honesty though, I don't know to explain it better than I already did, so I guess I'll just agree. It is interesting that it seems that way to some people, as I explained.

Separately, on the topic of The Order, and directed to no one in particular, I'd argue there's a difference between certain design choices being justified, versus being valuable. The game isn't even out yet, obviously, but if the designers really did just want to make a true-to-life Victorian London, but with two things: technology and werewolves, then I'd say it's probably justified (by that criteria) in having the homogenous main cast (though maybe they even screwed that up by including women? I don't know how staunchly sexist the time period was or not). Whether that's a valuable design choice at all is obviously open to criticism. I don't find it particularly valuable, personally.

 

[Africanus]

On the topic of "people writing what they know", I have never found that to be a reasonable argument. Did Stephen Crane know the experience of a Civil War veteran when he wrote the Red Badge of Courage? Was Count Leo Tolstoy a Russian woman when he wrote Anna Karenina? What of Toni Morrison, did she have the firsthand experience of a black man in the mid 1900s when she wrote Song of Solomon? In each case, the answer is no, yet the reason they were able to succeed is that all three wrote their characters as part of the human experience. What I mean by this is, the characters were fleshed out, with their own motivations, ideals, worries, and joys, before ethnicity, nationality, and race come into play.

If one is worried that they will not "accurately" (Whatever this means) portray the minority group someone reccommends, research is always a valid option. The aforementioned Tolstoy spent years researching the battlefields and accounts of the Napoleon Wars so that he could write an accurate portrayal of it in War and Peace. Why not investigate, for example, how an average British minority (Of South Asian, West African, or Carribean descent) lived at the time period? Ask the descendants of those groups if they have personal accounts of their ancestors. Make it a learning experience.

However, even if one does not go to such lengths (Although it would be interesting) the most important aspect should be, again, to write a human, which any writer worth their salary should be able to do for any group of people.

 

[Dead Man]

I hadn't actually considered RDR in these terms before, it was just a stereotypical cowboy story. But having a minority character voice the same concerns as Marston would have changed the tone significantly I think. By having a white character explore the themes of acceptance of differences it probably made it more palatable to some people that if it was a minority character voicing the same opinions. Don't really know though.

 

[Toxi]

Another thing about realism: Statistically unlikely =/= impossible

If in a hypothetical world 1 in 10 people have purple eyes and the other 9 have brown eyes, writing about a purple-eyed character would not be "unrealistic". Sure, most people have brown eyes, but that doesn't mean purple-eyed people don't exist. Unfortunately, many people take rarity to mean non-existence, and so we often end up with hundreds of brown-eyed people and no purple eyes because "it's not realistic" even though the result is nothing like reality.

 

[TheBlackMarvel]

I anticipated my point being framed that way, but decided to give the benefit of the doubt so I didn't have to clarify in advance. I guess I should have. In all honesty though, I don't know to explain it better than I already did, so I guess I'll just agree. It is interesting that it seems that way to some people, as I explained.

Separately, on the topic of The Order, and directed to no one in particular, I'd argue there's a difference between certain design choices being justified, versus being valuable. The game isn't even out yet, obviously, but if the designers really did just want to make a true-to-life Victorian London, but with two things: technology and werewolves, then I'd say it's probably justified (by that criteria) in having the homogenous main cast (though maybe they even screwed that up by including women? I don't know how staunchly sexist the time period was or not). Whether that's a valuable design choice at all is obviously open to criticism. I don't find it particularly valuable, personally.

Women have been able to be knights (or part of a knightly order) for a LONG time.

 

[Giever]

Women have been able to be knights (or part of a knightly order) for a LONG time.

So I guess it would be totally kosher then, if that's what they were going for. Thanks for the information. I am far from a history buff, so I don't like to make assumptions on those kinds of things.

 

[redcrayon]

People are singling out The Order because it was brought up as a justified example and some of us feel otherwise. It's highly amusing how slavishly devoted to "the setting" people get when it's the race of characters but anything else, no matter how outside of the norm is totally justifiable.

Ah, OK, fair enough. I agree entirely with you that if werewolves and centuries-old humans and tesla coils in, the characters will struggle to require being white to justify their place in the backstory, and that's what the thread's about. I just don't think it's entirely, deliberately wrong of the writers to have a white cast in a vaguely-historical UK setting either. Not that I'm devoted to historical accuracy, and it's not exactly helping the lack of diversity in male leads, but more that I think writers should be able to tell the stories they like. It's just a shame that they mostly seem to like writing about white guys. Maybe the Order in the game is more diverse in it's members than we've seen so far based on the marketing, who knows.

I've been playing the demo of Codename Steam today. That's also set in a fantastical Victorian London and so far the only humans available to fight the opposition are a white American guy, a black American guy and a Native American woman.

 

[jmood88]

The mental gymnastics required to excuse fictional monsters and future weapons, along with all the other ahistorical nonsense present in games like The Order, while believing non-white male representation to be inconceivable will never make sense to me.

 

[Giever]

I've been playing the demo of Codename Steam today. That's also set in a fantastical Victorian London and so far the only humans available to fight the opposition are a white American guy, a black American guy and a Native American woman

Lol, I've been playing it too, and I noticed that. I don't really know much about the story at all, but it is kind of odd that everyone fighting off the aliens or whatever in London is from America.

 

[NipplesAndToes23]

I shall argue for Joel from The Last of Us. He must be a man because of the fatherly bond he developed with Ellie. He is a white man born into a world where he is expected to be THE provider and when he no longer has as much control he becomes a much worse person. I don't think I can do a great job justifying it but I feel themes of toxic masculinity are quite central to the character.

Also the main character from Spec-ops: The Line (Walker?) for being the White man who goes into a foreign nation to make everything "better"

Edit: damn it

So only white men are expected to be providers? The story could just as easily been about mother and daughter bonding without changing anything.

 

[Branduil]

I can totally buy steampunk Victorian London with vampires, but black people being there too is just a bridge too far.

Now excuse me while I somehow use a Tesla coil as a gun.

 

[Shy]

as i think it was my post about the order that caused all this. i'm going to make the same point. seeing as nobody seemed to pay attention to it.

you can have a person of colour in the team with out changing a damm thing, or having to justify it or any of that other bullshit.

what i was saying is you can have someone in the team where he/she is fully respected and treated equally, but when they step outside of the warmth of their comrades they're fully subjected to all the horrors of racism that you would expect from 19th century Britain.
the creator's could made very some important points about that time period.

again you would not of had to change or justify ANYTHING for that to happen.

For all we know, they could be pulling a Metal Gear Solid 2

ohh bish. the sun itself will burn out before anything like that will happen again.

 

[Corpekata]

According to that women in knighthood link, it was only for a period of about 130 years starting in 1358 in England. That doesn't really jive with having female knights in Victorian London so I wouldn't say she's any more realistic than having a black or Indian character. Combine that with one of the characters being French, I don't see why we need to apply the realities of Victorian London's realities to them like they were a normal knightly order. These sort of fantastical games set in history (like Asscreed) tend to play out almost like historical fan fiction (Nikola Tesla is your gunsmith) so with silly things like that, it opens up a lot of avenues.

I mean Victorian London was not very friendly to women either.

 

[Africanus]

Ah, OK, fair enough. I agree entirely with you that if werewolves and centuries-old humans and tesla coils in, the characters will struggle to require being white to justify their place in the backstory. I just don't think it's entirely, deliberately wrong of the writers to have a white cast in a vaguely-historical UK setting either. Not that I'm devoted to historical accuracy, more that I think writers should be able to tell the stories they like. Maybe the Order in the game is more diverse in it's members than we've seen so far based on the marketing, who knows.

I've been playing the demo of Codename Steam today. That's also set in a fantastical Victorian London and so far the only humans available to fight the opposition are a white American guy, a black American guy and a Native American woman

See codename steam is a (somewhat) relevant example of what I refer to.

While they could have chosen all white fictional/historical characters such at Paul Bunyan, Betsy Ross, Uncle Sam, etc, they chose

Henry Fleming: White American (Inspired by Red Badge of Courage)

John Henry: Black American (Inspired by folklore: The Steel Driving Man)

Tiger Lily: Native American (Inspired by Peter Pan)

Lion: Lion (Inspired by Lions)

This sort of diversity is very interesting as it draws from multiple sources, and makes the game more interesting as a whole. It was neat piecing all of that together and seeing how it affects the characters and their abilities. (John Henry being the highest sense of irony).

 

[redcrayon]

Lol, I've been playing it too, and I noticed that. I don't really know much about the story at all, but it is kind of odd that everyone fighting off the aliens or whatever in London is from America.

I was moaning in the demo thread that, despite the headquarters of the most powerful army in the world at the time (and presumably in the game seeing how steam-developed London is) being a five minute jog away, it was quicker for Team America to fight their way down from the US embassy to Buckingham Palace!

 

[zeldablue]

The mental gymnastics required to excuse fictional monsters and future weapons, along with all the other ahistorical nonsense present in games like The Order, while believing non-white male representation to be inconceivable will never make sense to me.

If we were still in the mascot era of gaming, all of these white males would be raccoons and kangaroos. o___o

If we're talking about characters who learn to accept others then Link from Twilight Princess may also apply.

Midna feels as though Link's ansestors were oppressors who wrongly imprisoned her people. She blackmails him into being her servant because he's a good punching bag for her to vent out what happened with her people in the past.

But then they hug it out at the end? Does that count? :/

 

[Freeman]

At least The Order has a woman in the team, it would be just weird if it were just four mustachioed dudes in the cover. As it is it almost feels like the woman is missing some for of facial hair.

I personalty have no issue with them being white, it makes sense given the setting.

 

[D i Z]

According to that women in knighthood link, it was only for a period of about 130 years starting in 1358 in England. That doesn't really jive with having female knights in Victorian London so I wouldn't say she's any more realistic than having a black or Indian character. Combine that with one of the characters being French, I don't see why we need to apply the realities of Victorian London's realities to them like they were a normal knightly order. These sort of fantastical games set in history (like Asscreed) tend to play out almost like historical fan fiction (Nikola Tesla is your gunsmith) so with silly things like that, it opens up a lot of avenues.

Again, bold for your pleasure. Quick question tho. How many Queens has England and Europe had? And in what time periods? This talk of what qualifies as being knight worthy, or a DAME is stupid. Even in Victorian times Knights were Actors, Authors, Scientists and Artists. The occasional guy that actually went to war and did something special. Not sword swinging loons.

 

[redcrayon]

See codename steam is a (somewhat) relevant example of what I refer to.

While they could have chosen all white fictional/historical characters such at Paul Bunyan, Betsy Ross, Uncle Sam, etc, they chose

Henry Fleming: White American (Inspired by Red Badge of Courage)

John Henry: Black American (Inspired by folklore: The Steel Driving Man)

Tiger Lily: Native American (Inspired by Peter Pan)

Lion: Lion (Inspired by Lions)

This sort of diversity is very interesting as it draws from multiple sources, and makes the game more interesting as a whole. It was neat piecing all of that together and seeing how it affects the characters and their abilities. (John Henry being the highest sense of irony).

How is three Americans diverse when you're fighting monsters in Victorian London and you've got a massive literary canon of Brits to choose from who love doing exactly that!

I do like that they've chosen fictional literary characters that haven't been overly represented elsewhere (like Sherlock Holmes, Dr Jekyll, Captain Nemo, Jonathan/Mina Harker, Van Helsing etc) though, I hadn't actually heard of any of them except Tiger Lily before.

 

[TheBlackMarvel]

According to that women in knighthood link, it was only for a period of about 130 years starting in 1358 in England. That doesn't really jive with having female knights in Victorian London so I wouldn't say she's any more realistic than having a black or Indian character. Combine that with one of the characters being French, I don't see why we need to apply the realities of Victorian London's realities to them like they were a normal knightly order. These sort of fantastical games set in history (like Asscreed) tend to play out almost like historical fan fiction (Nikola Tesla is your gunsmith) so with silly things like that, it opens up a lot of avenues.

Nobody is saying this. It was just an example to dispel the idea that women couldn't be part of a knightly order.

How is three Americans diverse when you've got a massive literary canon of Brits to choose from

I do like that they've chosen fictional literary characters that haven't been overly represented elsewhere (like Sherlock Holmes, Dr Jekyll, Captain Nemo, Jonathan/Mina Harker, Van Helsing etc) though, I hadn't actually heard of any of them except Tiger Lily before.

EDIT: I think I misread your post!

 

[hotnheavyload]

If you're still on The Order, why would people automatically assume to include a black man as a minority?

As another user pointed out, an Indian man would be far more likely given the context.

 

[Dead Man]

See codename steam is a (somewhat) relevant example of what I refer to.

While they could have chosen all white fictional/historical characters such at Paul Bunyan, Betsy Ross, Uncle Sam, etc, they chose

Henry Fleming: White American (Inspired by Red Badge of Courage)

John Henry: Black American (Inspired by folklore: The Steel Driving Man)

Tiger Lily: Native American (Inspired by Peter Pan)

Lion: Lion (Inspired by Lions)

This sort of diversity is very interesting as it draws from multiple sources, and makes the game more interesting as a whole. It was neat piecing all of that together and seeing how it affects the characters and their abilities. (John Henry being the highest sense of irony).

Seems odd they are all Americans. Oh well. Good they are at least diverse Americans.

If you're still on The Order, why would people automatically assume to include a black man as a minority?

As another user pointed out, an Indian man would be far more likely given the context.

An Indian in The Order would be awesome, get some Captain Nemo up in there. We need more brown, tough, science minded characters.

 

[TheBlackMarvel]

If you're still on The Order, why would people automatically assume to include a black man as a minority?

As another user pointed out, an Indian man would be far more likely given the context.

Equally as likely is probably a better way of putting it.

 

[Dead Man]

Equally as likely is probably a better way of putting it.

Equally as likely as an African person? If you say so.

 

[twobear]

So only white men are expected to be providers? The story could just as easily been about mother and daughter bonding without changing anything.

I don't think that's necessarily true; mother/daughter, mother/son, father/daughter, and father/son relationships are I think arguably different things that generally have different fictional portrayals and connotations. So I don't think you could change the sexes of Joel and Ellie willy nilly and not have a different story.

The skin colours of Joel and Ellie, is a somewhat different matter.

 

[Angelus Errare]

I think he just means it wouldn't be 1800s Britain without the racism.

I mean it wouldn't be the 1800s Britain we know if werewolves were real either...

The scientific/medical ramifications alone would completely change the dynamics of the British Empire add in the mass hysteria and the eventual witch trials of werewolf variety, government response to the aforementioned, the spreading of said virus/werewolf clans, etc.

The argument that the introduction of werewolves not changing Britain much is just idiotic. Saying it would change/affect the British Empire less than racial equality is just crazy. Hell one could make the argument that the introduction of werewolves would bring about racial equality quicker.

 

[TheBlackMarvel]

Equally as likely as an African person? If you say so.

Yes, one citizen of the Empire being as likely as another. A shocking idea.

 

[D i Z]

Seems odd they are all Americans. Oh well. Good they are at least diverse Americans.

Strange that.

An Indian in The Order would be awesome, get some Captain Nemo up in there. We need more brown, tough, science minded characters.

Yeah...cos we all know East Indians are as stereotypically smart as they get.

 

[redcrayon]

EDIT: I think I misread your post!

I saw nothing ;D

 

[Dead Man]

Yes, one citizen of the Empire being as likely as another. A shocking idea.

Eh, before you get all pissy about a simple question, you do realise that not all of Africa was part of the British empire, right? You do also realise the British relationship with Africa was different to that of India, right? Or do you think it is as likely that an Australian and Canadian be on the team as an African?

I'm not saying you are wrong, just that it seems to me more likely (not that that should prevent either skin colour being represented) that an Indian person would be included rather than an African one. But both would be fine on the team.

Strange that.




Yeah...cos we all know East Indians are as stereotypical smart as they get.

What? Are you spinning that as a racist statement by me?

 

[TheBlackMarvel]

I saw nothing ;D

 

[Africanus]

How is three Americans diverse when you're fighting monsters in Victorian London and you've got a massive literary canon of Brits to choose from who love doing exactly that!

I do like that they've chosen fictional literary characters that haven't been overly represented elsewhere (like Sherlock Holmes, Dr Jekyll, Captain Nemo, Jonathan/Mina Harker, Van Helsing etc) though, I hadn't actually heard of any of them except Tiger Lily before.

I was referring more to racial/ethnic diversity. National diversity is sorely lacking! We better get some good literary Brits, Scots, and Irish otherwise this game will be very weird.

 

[Uncle Rupee]

Yep, I keep hearing that black or gay people need to have their blackness of gayness explained on the plot, I need to know why some white protagonists need to be white for a change.

Hm.. are you referring to when black characters show up in fantasy medieval European settings? I'm pretty sure if you set a game in ancient Africa, Japan, China, etc. and a white dude was there he would have some 'splainin' to do too.

 

[redcrayon]

I was referring more to racial/ethnic diversity. National diversity is sorely lacking! We better get some good literary Brits, Scots, and Irish otherwise this game will be very weird.

I suppose at least Peter Pan's author was Scottish!

 

[Brakke]

High quality OP.

 

[zeldablue]

Hm.. are you referring to when black characters show up in fantasy medieval European settings? I'm pretty sure if you set a game in ancient Africa, Japan, China, etc. and a white dude was there he would have some 'splainin' to do too.

...The Silk Road?

 

[TheBlackMarvel]

Eh, before you get all pissy about a simple question, you do realise that not all of Africa was part of the British empire, right? You do also realise the British relationship with Africa was different to that of India, right?

I'm not saying you are wrong, just that it seems to me more likely (not that that should prevent either skin colour being represented) that an Indian person would be included rather than an African one. But both would be fine on the team.


What? Are you spinning that as a racist statement by me?

I am well aware of the boundaries of the British Empire. I am also aware of the differences between British colonialism in Africa and the British Raj.

 

[Dead Man]

I am well aware of the boundaries of the British Empire. I am also aware of the differences between British colonialism in Africa and the British Raj.

Okay. And... that's it? If you don't want to present your case that's fine, but don't get all snarky if so.

 

[TheBlackMarvel]

Okay. And... that's it? If you don't want to present your case that's fine, but don't get all snarky if so.

My case? I answered your questions... you wanted more? If you want to start throwing that around perhaps you can give me a better reason than "just that it seems to me more likely" before asking me to present my case.

 

[Night Angel]

As ridiculous justifications go, this is a good one.



So they went through the trouble of justifying werewolves in Victorian London but black people were just one step too far?

Ok then.

So you think writing a story about an order with strong ties to the Round Table legend that has characters representative of those characters (and, using my crystal ball, I bet the characters are

Spoiler

the original Knights of the Round Table

) is a ridiculous justification? Is there no legitimate reason to have a story with minimal minority presence? I'm genuinely confused at what you think is a legitimate reason.

Also, the devs have made it very clear that the setting is important to the story they are telling. Would racial equality make sense based on the setting?

(Yeah, yeah, werewolves aren't real, blah blah blah... why bother with a setting at all in that case? Every change the devs make to a setting makes it less representative of the setting they want to convey. If they want to make a game in Victorian London with werewolves and special tech, they should. I see no onus to change the social paradigms that existed, as it would detract from the "feel" of being in Victorian London.)

That being said, I'd be perfectly happy if one of the characters was a POC. However, I in no way expect it, given the setting the game has and the elite status of the MC's organization.
(Please don't try to spin this to me saying POC detract from games...)