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[ResidentDante]

Saturn arrived and it looks almost new! I'm really surprised, and I'm loving it so far. Everything seems to work perfectly, and I'm far more impressed than I expected. Although, the first game I played was Daytona USA (Found it at a thrift shop back in 2007 for $5 and have always wanted to try it), it was a little disappointing due to the framerate, but Championship Circuit Edition fixed that right up, and I was pleasantly surprised. I felt the same way about SEGA Touring Car, surprisingly. It's nowhere near as bad as people have been saying, imo. Gonna need to replace the clock battery, but otherwise I'm loving the system!

Question:
I've purchased an NTSC-J copy of Sonic R, and my system is PAL. Will the Hz difference affect/hinder the experience much? I really want to import more games if this goes well.

Congrats! You'll need a Backup Memory cart to keep those saves safe though, the battery will run out after a while. I also have a PAL console, and yes PAL is the worst region for games on older consoles considering the lower framerate. There are some exceptions though.

Tomb Raider for Saturn (and PS1 for that matter) is PAL optimized. So is Sega Rally with fullscreen. Sega Touring Cars justs runs fucked up imo. It runs too fast when many cars are present, skipping frames like hell. It runs fine on PC with the SFF emulator though.

I'd like to point out two games I enjoy for a bit of retrogaming on the Saturn that both are PAL optimized:

Sega Ages Vol. 1

It's accurate arcade ports of the Sega classics OutRun, AfterBurner II and Space Harrier. Running at 50fps but at the correct speed (NTSC is 60fps). Great collection and the first perfect port for your Sega arcade needs from the late 80's!

Sonic Jam (been playing a lot of this recently)

All the 3 Sonic games from the Mega Drive (including Sonic & Knuckles, which you can connect to all threee games) have been PAL optimized. For the first time people in Europe got to play Sonic at full speed! This compilation lets you turn off the timer too and it even has a new game mode for each game that removes small bugs etc. from the orignals. It's a proper port of the games and not just an emulation.

 

[IrishNinja]

^man both of those games are awesome; near-perfect arcade ports of suzuki's classics, and prolly the best package of classic Sonic games (commercials & art + spin dash in part 1!)

To keep this Saturn related... is it worth shelling out the extra money to play Nights with the 3D controller, or is it fine to just play it with the standard controller?

i don't know how NiGHTS would work without the analogy controller, but i can't imagine it'd be nearly as enjoyable since it was made for that thing...unlike most saturn stuff that pad is still fairly cheap & totally worth your time

 

[ResidentDante]

^man both of those games are awesome; near-perfect arcade ports of suzuki's classics, and prolly the best package of classic Sonic games (commercials & art + spin dash in part 1!)

I know! I warmly recommend them to anybody owning a Saturn and they are not that rare at all, a must-have in the collection. I even find the 3D extra hub on Sonic Jam to be interesting, it shows that a 3D 32-bit Sonic could have been okay and looked fine imo!

 

[IrishNinja]

I know! I warmly recommend them to anybody owning a Saturn and they are not that rare at all, a must-have in the collection. I even find the 3D extra hub on Sonic Jam to be interesting, it shows that a 3D 32-bit Sonic could have been okay and looked fine imo!

while i wholeheartedly agree with the neat hubworld, i sadly have to say that at least on the US end, both games are kinda going up & harder to find for a fair price. the Working Designs collection of those Sega Ages titles is getting pretty pricey (to the point where i think it might be better to track down the JP AGES releases with the extra tracks & such), and just last year i was searching high & low for Sonic Jam at less than $40, pretty sure it's more than that now - though again importing is a fine solution!

 

[ResidentDante]

while i wholeheartedly agree with the neat hubworld, i sadly have to say that at least on the US end, both games are kinda going up & harder to find for a fair price. the Working Designs collection of those Sega Ages titles is getting pretty pricey (to the point where i think it might be better to track down the JP AGES releases with the extra tracks & such), and just last year i was searching high & low for Sonic Jam at less than $40, pretty sure it's more than that now - though again importing is a fine solution!

Ah, I'm thinking PAL region, seems to be a few of them around there, at least on ebay.co.uk (the UK seemed to be Saturn land for a few years back in the 90's).

I'd hoped Sonic Jam had fallen under the radar for the random "I'm-retrogaming-Mega-Drive-cause-it's-hip" trend "gamers" :/

 

[IrishNinja]

yeah, i'dve hoped that too, but sadly right around when i was digging deep into Saturn stuff, prices started to spike...even common/less wanted stuff like Die Hard Arcade, Shinobi Legions etc spiked up to $40-50, and those two titles definitely jumped. The Working Designs RPGs, Panzer Saga etc were always rare, but things like Burning Rangers, Elevator Action Returns and others got stupid-expensive pretty quick!

like the Turbo scene, i get that US releases had limited #'s but even so, if someone jumped into saturn gaming today, id say import what you can and hold off on what you can't, it's pretty bad out here right now. I think the last of the US releases i'm chasing is Shining Force III, it stays my elusive white whale~

 

[fart town usa]

Not emulating but I've been playing through resident evil on my saturn the last couple hours. Currently about to fight tyrian (again). Was trying to make it through without saving but gladly I felt like playing it safe and saved in the lab prior to the last battle.

Lots of people say the PSX version is superior, and it is in many regards but there's a strong argument to be made that the saturn version has better backgrounds and character models. Also, the saturn features the retextured hunter variant, 'tick.'

Saturn version is definitely my favorite when comparing the original version, not the director's cut.

Long live Sega Saturn!!

on a side note, i'm playing on a sony trinitron with s-video. It definitely improves the quality of the visuals.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I'm probably the only person on the planet who prefers to play NiGHTS with the original controller. The Saturn analog pad never clicked with me at all. It just feels way too loose or something.

 

[Khaz]

All the 3 Sonic games from the Mega Drive (including Sonic & Knuckles, which you can connect to all threee games) have been PAL optimized. For the first time people in Europe got to play Sonic at full speed! This compilation lets you turn off the timer too and it even has a new game mode for each game that removes small bugs etc. from the orignals. It's a proper port of the games and not just an emulation.

I'm sorry but this is incorrect.

The disc is PAL-optimised indeed. The title screen and menu is in full screen, same goes for the 3D Sonic world thing. The games in the compilations though? Fat chance. The sound tempo is not bound with the screen refresh rate so we have the correct tempo regardless of playing in 50 or 60Hz. Every other PAL problems remain though: the gameplay is still 20% slower, and the screen still is crushed with black borders (but it's a 2D sprites game, so I'm ok with it).

Having a 50/60Hz switch on the console is still the only way to play Sonic like the Japanese and Americans experienced it.

I don't know about 3D sonic, it may be speed-optimised too but I couldn't be bothered to test.

Tomb Raider

is PAL-optimised in the looks only. Speed is still 20% slower.

 

[Khaz]

To keep this Saturn related... is it worth shelling out the extra money to play Nights with the 3D controller, or is it fine to just play it with the standard controller?

Yes, yes it is. I tried playing with the regular controller a few times (thanks to the 2 players mode) and damn does it kills your thumbs. And it's much easier to fail a loop.

Nights is a reason why people started sanding their Wii's thumbstick to a smooth circle.

There was an outrage when Nights was released on PC as it initially only supported eight directions of flight, like when playing with a digital controller. It was later patched to allow full analogue directions.

 

[ResidentDante]

I'm sorry but this is incorrect.

The disc is PAL-optimised indeed. The title screen and menu is in full screen, same goes for the 3D Sonic world thing. The games in the compilations though? Fat chance. The sound tempo is not bound with the screen refresh rate so we have the correct tempo regardless of playing in 50 or 60Hz. Every other PAL problems remain though: the gameplay is still 20% slower, and the screen still is crushed with black borders (but it's a 2D sprites game, so I'm ok with it).

Having a 50/60Hz switch on the console is still the only way to play Sonic like the Japanese and Americans experienced it.

I don't know about 3D sonic, it may be speed-optimised too but I couldn't be bothered to test.

Sure about this? http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_Jam "the games have been optimised for 50Hz refresh rates (the original PAL versions perform 17.5% slower than their NTSC counterparts and contain borders, as little optimisation work was done between the two versions)."

is PAL-optimised in the looks only. Speed is still 20% slower.

Hmmm? Game is made in the UK, same as the WipEout games (were the NTSC games run faster than intended). You sure that's not a case of NTSC being 20% too fast?

 

[Khaz]

Sure about this? http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_Jam "the games have been optimised for 50Hz refresh rates (the original PAL versions perform 17.5% slower than their NTSC counterparts and contain borders, as little optimisation work was done between the two versions)."

The easiest way to check is to load a Sonic ROM in an emulator and on your console, then press forward on the first level at the same time. You will notice the emulated NTSC Sonic will reach the the badnick first. When flicking the 60Hz switch, they both reach it at the same time. I actually tried this with the a real cartridge and a Megadrive (also switched).

[edit] Actually the discussion page on your wiki says the same thing; http://info.sonicretro.org/Talk:Sonic_Jam
Why it has never been changed is something I won't try to explain (and I won't do it myself either, too much drama on wikis)
[/edit]

Hmmm? Game is made in the UK, same as the WipEout games (were the NTSC games run faster than intended). You sure that's not a case of NTSC being 20% too fast?

I don't know if the European version is slower or the American version is faster, but what is clear is that there is a difference in speed. I tested it with the Dos version of Tomb Raider as I couldn't be bothered to import another console copy. I also think that the 60Hz speed is more correct based on her footstep tempo, which feel more realistic. Keep in mind that it was initially a PC game, and PC don't have such framerate considerations.

The Wipeout games are another beast and I don't think we can say what the correct, intended speed was. Wipeout 3 Special Edition dodges the problem by being exclusive to Europe. (And for a futuristic racing game I don't think it matter too much.)

 

[ResidentDante]

The easiest way to check is to load a Sonic ROM in an emulator and on your console, then press forward on the first level at the same time. You will notice the emulated NTSC Sonic will reach the the badnick first. When flicking the 60Hz switch, they both reach it at the same time. I actually tried this with the a real cartridge and a Megadrive (also switched)

I stand corrected! Sad they didn't fix it when they had a chance! I heard they fixed the Sonic 2 slowdowns that bugged Sonic Jam (NTSC) in the PAL release though.

I don't know if the European version is slower or the American version is faster, but what is clear is that there is a difference in speed. I tested it with the Dos version of Tomb Raider as I couldn't be bothered to import another console copy. I also think that the 60Hz speed is more correct based on her footstep tempo, which feel more realistic. Keep in mind that it was initially a PC game, and PC don't have such framerate considerations.

The Wipeout games are another beast and I don't think we can say what the correct, intended speed was. Wipeout 3 Special Edition dodges the problem by being exclusive to Europe. (And for a futuristic racing game I don't think it matter too much.)

I think Tomb Raider is running at intended speed for PAL as the Saturn was the intended release initially, Core traditionally being a Sega contributor and all.

From what I've gathered from WipEout forums it seems that the PAL versions are the correct speed ones, but then again it doesn't matter other than time leaderboards etc. Which all back in the day were offline anyhow!

 

[sixteen-bit]

The analog controller is definitely worth it. Even if you don't like Nights, it works great on Space Harrier, Outrun, and Powerslave.

 

[Deleted member 74300]

Nights is a reason why people started sanding their Wii's thumbstick to a smooth circle.

If I didn't sell my copy I would have sanded the disc into dust. It's not the Nights 2 I wanted. : (

Though thankfully I have the original game again after someone basically stealing my original copy.

Spoiler

No matter I still have his Sonic Jam disc. It's his fault he never wanted to return it back.

 

[Mzo]

The analog controller is definitely worth it. Even if you don't like Nights, it works great on Space Harrier, Outrun, and Powerslave.

also Burning Rangers.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Diamond Edge 3D review. Never nknew about this, pretty strange.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jChtlWNIAL4

 

[Timu]

lol same here

I think I ordered my Super Famicom with free shipping and it showed up like 3 months later. I can definitely wait for retro stuff if it means cheaper shipping.

That is way, way too long of a wait, I would go crazy after a month passes by.

Hoping to pick up some Saturn stuff sometime soon.

 

[Khaz]

Diamond Edge 3D review. Never knew about this, pretty strange.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jChtlWNIAL4

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NV1

Among the game they list is Virtua Cop PC. I wonder if the Virtua Gun, through the real Saturn controller port and with a proper VGA CRT, would work with it.

 

[Bar81]

Anyone have experience with Amazon seller "AkihabaraGames"?

I ordered Silhouette Mirage from them on August 12th, and it says it shipped the day afterwards, yet i've received several other imports ordered afterwards already. I emailed them, and they said it shipped and will arrive within the estimated delivery time...but... thats Tuesday, September 9, 2014 - Tuesday, September 30, 2014... and its never taken this long for anything i've ordered from Japan to arrive.

I guess I can wait it out, but still...i'm 90% sure i'll just have to cancel and push for a refund.

International shipment delivery times can vary wildly. Unless it's been shipped first class mail or better and been over a month, you're jumping the gun.

 

[sixteen-bit]

That OG gray model is fire. I don't need another Saturn console, but damn it I really want this.

 

[Shadow Hog]

I'll stick with my white, honestly.

 

[sixteen-bit]

I really don't like the way the white one looks. I only got one because it was way cheaper than gray.
Supposedly the RGB output is worse on the white / round button Saturns as well. :/

 

[Anth0ny]

i don't know how NiGHTS would work without the analogy controller, but i can't imagine it'd be nearly as enjoyable since it was made for that thing...unlike most saturn stuff that pad is still fairly cheap & totally worth your time

Yes, yes it is. I tried playing with the regular controller a few times (thanks to the 2 players mode) and damn does it kills your thumbs. And it's much easier to fail a loop.

Nights is a reason why people started sanding their Wii's thumbstick to a smooth circle.

There was an outrage when Nights was released on PC as it initially only supported eight directions of flight, like when playing with a digital controller. It was later patched to allow full analogue directions.

Ok, sounds good! I've never played Nights, and come to think of it, I've never even seen video of the game. I just know it was made by Sonic Team back when Sonic Team was still the shit. I've always wanted to play it.

Too bad the game with the 3D controller goes for over $60 on ebay! Just lost an auction for it =(

 

[Khaz]

It's a scoring game at it's core, trying to make the longest link in the shortest time. I guess we could share our Nights scores?

 

[BlazeHedgehog]

There was an outrage when Nights was released on PC as it initially only supported eight directions of flight, like when playing with a digital controller. It was later patched to allow full analogue directions.

Not really part of the discussion, but the original Saturn version still controls better than the PC/360/PS3/PS2 version, though.

(I actually made a video of the unpatched version and compared it to the original game. Some of the problems in this video never got fixed!)

 

[Khaz]

Not really part of the discussion, but the original Saturn version still controls better than the PC/360/PS3/PS2 version, though.

(I actually made a video of the unpatched version and compared it to the original game. Some of the problems in this video never got fixed!)

The PS2 release is identical to the PC/PS3/360?

 

[Teknoman]

International shipment delivery times can vary wildly. Unless it's been shipped first class mail or better and been over a month, you're jumping the gun.

Its just odd since ever since I started ordering import titles, all the way back to when I found an SNES and started to ramp up retro again, its never taken this long for any JP seller. Sure it's varied, but never this long.

At any rate, they've got until September the 30th.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Ok, sounds good! I've never played Nights, and come to think of it, I've never even seen video of the game. I just know it was made by Sonic Team back when Sonic Team was still the shit. I've always wanted to play it.

Too bad the game with the 3D controller goes for over $60 on ebay! Just lost an auction for it =(

It's very playable with a decent controller (360 or DS3) on Steam, and the game's HD version is only $10.

 

[Friend of Sonic]

That OG gray model is fire. I don't need another Saturn console, but damn it I really want this.

Damn, that is sexy. Though I have that gray controller. Was that color scheme for the controller released in the US? Or do I have a JP controller?

 

[Mzo]

You have a J controller.

 

[Friend of Sonic]

You have a J controller.

I wonder how that happened. IIRC, it came with my NTSC Saturn when I bought it second hand in the late 90s. Hmm...

 

[Anth0ny]

It's very playable with a decent controller (360 or DS3) on Steam, and the game's HD version is only $10.

pfft

original version or BUST

Spoiler

If I bought virtual console or XBLA versions of old games instead of the original versions, I'd probably be a millionaire at this point

 

[Megadragon15]

Damn, that is sexy. Though I have that gray controller. Was that color scheme for the controller released in the US? Or do I have a JP controller?

They sold the gray controller separately in the US so you have a US controller. They sold them at Toys R Us.

 

[Friend of Sonic]

I recant my "Yay!!!" Thanks for that information.

 

[BlazeHedgehog]

The PS2 release is identical to the PC/PS3/360?

Yep.

Though I haven't actually checked, I saw other people post screenshots of the PS2 version that suggest the PS3/360/PC version also has downgraded lighting in some situations (the example screenshot I saw was the Gilwing fight; he's basically unlit in the HD version).

"Saturn Mode" in the PS2 version also replicates the original Sega Saturn display resolution (320x224 or whatever), whereas in NiGHTS HD, "Saturn Mode" is just the Saturn assets in HD.

-------

Decided to dig my discs out and grab some screenshots. This isn't as complete as it could be, but I forgot to take screenshots of some things.

NiGHTS for the PS2 at Native Resolution
Menu - Capsule Spawn - Approaching Shrine - Flying - Grades - Gilwing

NiGHTS for the PS2 at In Saturn Mode
Menu - Capsule Spawn - Approaching Shrine - Flying - Grades - Gilwing

NiGHTS for the PS2 at 3x Resolution
Menu - Capsule Spawn - Approaching Shrine - Flying - Gilwing

NiGHTS for the PS2 In Saturn Mode At 3x Resolution
Flying

NiGHTS HD
Menu - Capsule Spawn - Approaching Shrine - Flying - Grades - Gilwing

NiGHTS HD in Saturn Mode
Menu - Capsule Spawn - Approaching Shrine - Flying - Grades - Gilwing

NiGHTS for the Sega Saturn
Menu - Capsule Spawn - Approaching Shrine - Flying - Grades - Gilwing

Organized Imgur Gallery

Notes: The HD version of NiGHTS is the worst of the three I own; control-wise, it's inferior to the Saturn version, and visually, some of the enhanced graphical effects of the Playstation 2 version are missing.

That being said, the visual effects from the PS2 version that didn't make it over to the HD version aren't the end of the world. The "glow" effect on the capsule and worse lighting for the Gilwing battle are trivial differences at best, but still inferiorities. I'd say that NiGHTS HD benefits from 16:9 widescreen, but then I remembered that even on the Saturn, NiGHTS had a widescreen option.

For "Saturn Mode" on the Playstation 2, it appears to simply halve the display resolution, bringing the PS2's 640x480 down to 320x240. It still ends up looking nicer than the original Saturn version, but it works in a pinch. As demonstrated, if you up the output resolution of PCSX2, Saturn Mode will still display at half of whatever that is.

NiGHTS HD still appears to halve the display resolution for Saturn Mode, but in this case it seems to step it down to 640x480. But perhaps worst of all, NiGHTS HD applies texture filtering, so it ends up looking kind of like an N64 game.

 

[dodgeme]

Pumped finally got a few more games coming for my JP saturn. Marvel vs Street Fighter and Castlevania Symphony of the Night, got a good price on Castlevania actually $45. Might throw some money at Soukyguarentei as well but gotta see what I want to spend. Such a fun console, it's a shame how much it got ignored in the US though.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Pumped finally got a few more games coming for my JP saturn. Marvel vs Street Fighter and Castlevania Symphony of the Night, got a good price on Castlevania actually $45. Might throw some money at Soukyguarentei as well but gotta see what I want to spend. Such a fun console, it's a shame how much it got ignored in the US though.

SotN is just a collector's peice, right?

'Cause yo, that game runs like ass on Saturn.

 

[Tailzo]

I've seen this thread several times, but I never stopped to say just: I loved the Saturn. So many fun games. I still regret buying a PSone istead of a Saturn.

 

[sixteen-bit]

I've seen this thread several times, but I never stopped to say just: I loved the Saturn. So many fun games. I still regret buying a PSone istead of a Saturn.

Both systems are awesome

 

[kimtish]

SotN is just a collector's peice, right?

'Cause yo, that game runs like ass on Saturn.

I think ass is a bit of an overstatement.

I think in a lot of ways SoTN is better on Saturn.

The amount of extra content outways any performance issues, which are very slight imo.

Rainbow mantle was also sweet as fuck.

Edit:

ALSO I BOUGHT A MOD CHIP FINALLY.

I'm VERY excited.

 

[Mercutio]

I think ass is a bit of an overstatement.

I think in a lot of ways SoTN is better on Saturn.

The amount of extra content outways any performance issues, which are very slight imo.

Rainbow mantle was also sweet as fuck.

Edit:

ALSO I BOUGHT A MOD CHIP FINALLY.

I'm VERY excited.

I'd actually say that the resolution weirdness is worse than the performance issues, in my book. A lot of the really cool sprite detail in the PS1 version is messed up on the Saturn.

 

[Sapiens]

I think ass is a bit of an overstatement.

I think in a lot of ways SoTN is better on Saturn.

The amount of extra content outways any performance issues, which are very slight imo.

Rainbow mantle was also sweet as fuck.

Edit:

ALSO I BOUGHT A MOD CHIP FINALLY.

I'm VERY excited.

There's no way - just NO WAY - that the extra content trumps the overall better performing game on PSX. This is spin.

 

[RoryDropkick]

I think ass is a bit of an overstatement.

I think in a lot of ways SoTN is better on Saturn.

The amount of extra content outways any performance issues, which are very slight imo.

Rainbow mantle was also sweet as fuck.

Edit:

ALSO I BOUGHT A MOD CHIP FINALLY.

I'm VERY excited.

Its pretty assy. I still own my copy but I favor the PS1 version by far.

 

[sixteen-bit]

I'd actually say that the resolution weirdness is worse than the performance issues, in my book. A lot of the really cool sprite detail in the PS1 version is messed up on the Saturn.

and don't forget that nasty-ass dithering

runs like shit, looks like shit
shit port all around
play it on Playstation

 

[Mercutio]

and don't forget that nasty-ass dithering

runs like shit, looks like shit
shit port all around
play it on Playstation

It's a cool thing to play if you're a huge SOTN fan and have played through that a dozen times, just to see the additions.

But it's not really worth $70 or whatever.

 

[kimtish]

It's a cool thing to play if you're a huge SOTN fan and have played through that a dozen times, just to see the additions.

But it's not really worth $70 or whatever.

Maybe this is why I think the way I do.

I've beat SOTN so many times that the best experience I've had with the game (aside from the first playthrough) is my Saturn playthrough.

Nega-Nostalgia goggles I guess.

 

[IrishNinja]

Sixteen bit stays crazy - yeah if you can find a deal on it & wanna replay, go for it!Maria + new areas are cool, some weapons too

 

[dodgeme]

SotN is just a collector's peice, right?

'Cause yo, that game runs like ass on Saturn.

Meh, I don't collect regularly for the PS1 right now and haven't played it in a long time so I figured why not.

 

[Mercutio]

Maybe this is why I think the way I do.

I've beat SOTN so many times that the best experience I've had with the game (aside from the first playthrough) is my Saturn playthrough.

Nega-Nostalgia goggles I guess.

I'm an insane Castlevania fan, and this is originally why I picked up and played the Saturn version. I'll probably play it a few more times too, just for kicks. I think looking at both versions though, the PS1 just feels better in so many ways. The only thing it REALLY lacks from the Saturn one is the Maria fight.

Oh, I think I saw someone talking about Sonic Jam somewhere?

NOBODY SHOULD BUY SONIC JAM HOLY CRAP. At least not if you're buying it with intent to play the Genesis Sonic games. The 3D overworld? Fine, buy it and mess with it, it's a cool thing.

But MAN. Talk about bad emulation. Sonic Jam on Saturn has slowdown. It skips frames. It is NO good. And then with the prices as they are now? You could get every REAL Genesis cartridge in a set for the same price. I keep hearing that Sonic Jam "Was ported" and "Isn't Emulated." Well, whatever it is, bad Sega. BAD. The sound also suffers.... it seems like it was recorded off of a not so hot sounding Mega Drive, and compressed.

Friends don't let friends buy Sonic Jam.