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Sega Saturn Appreciation and Emulation Thread

B

blast processed

Member
MikeMyers said:
Had some serious issues with the RAM cart today. Console got frozen at the AR screen. :/

I don't remember the gameplay being too different in Soul Calibur arcade, the Dreamcast version certainly had better graphics and more content. Though the latter was kinda expected for a home version of a Namco fighter.

I love Fighters Megamix. I replayed it today and still feel like it holds up.
Click to expand...

You're leaving the cart in all the time, correct? Those slots are flakey as hell. Taking it in and out will stretch the pins.

Never owned a Dreamcast, I feel I should grab one just for Soul Calibur.
 
M

MikeMyers

Member
Yeah. I generally leave it in. Although, I actually took it out today because it wasnt working. I blew it like it was a Mega Drive game, and a few attempts later, it worked.

I don't really play the DC as much as my other Sega systems. The original Soul Calibur is on Xbox 360 if you own one of those.
 
O

oneida

Cock Strain, Lifetime Warranty
A Black Falcon said:
Well I just went and played VF2 for a while. And yes, you are right that it isn't as slow as most other 3d fighters that generation. It's still very dated, though, in controls, movement, gameplay, etc. It's not bad, but I don't like it much, either. It still has that weird movement (those jumps...), lacking 3d-move options (via moves only, not up/down), the style of play is different from newer 3d fighters, etc. Fighting in VF2 is very different from a newer game in a lot of little ways, and the newer games mostly play better in my opinion. And of course, like all VF games I find it kind of boring. I like stuff like fireballs, ridiculous bosses with their crazy backstories, etc! Removing all that stuff makes VF worse than other (mostly 2d) fighting games, not better. And seriously, VF1/2's jumping is weird, in a bad way. I don't really like that most later 3d fighters have almost no jumping, but VF1/2 moonjumps aren't much better. Hitting the opponent can be fun, but it's too limiting compared to newer fighting games. I know some people prefer VF2's style, but I am not one of them.

Oh, I don't know what you are talking about when you talk about crouch dash, I don't play VF games much.

Last, the issue of round lengths. Speed and round time aren't necessarily connected -- regardless of game speed, if single hits are going to do as much damage as they do in games like VF or Tekken, rounds are going to be very short, and I really dislike that style of round-length design! VF rounds aren't short because the game plays fast or slow, they are short because hits do too much damage. I know that you don't want rounds to go on forever either, but really dislike how short the rounds are in many 3d fighters, and VF is the game that started that. Playing VF2 for now just instance, there are way, WAY too many single hits that do 50% damage. That much damage should be something only for tough combos, super moves, and the like, not regular grabs! That's ridiculous, and I think it's kind of bad design. Tekken is a series which I have always greatly disliked (Tekken 3 is the only Tekken game I've played I would give a passing grade to, and it's barely above average at best -- and I have Tekkens 3, 4, 5, and 6), and one of many reasons why are the way-too-fast rounds that series has. I like the style of 2d fighters like Street Fighter or, even better, SNK games the best; those ten-second rounds you see in Tekken or VF 1 and 2 are way too fast. DoA1 rounds can be too fast as well, but I think they do balance things a bit better in the later games of the series, though it's still a lot shorter than SNK game rounds. I know 2d and 3d fighting games have different paces, but I like the pacing of the top 2d fighters more than that of the top 3d fighters.


Sure, but isn't the DC version supposed to be hugely improved over the original arcade release?


Soul Blade is slow, mediocre looking, and incredibly boring to play. Just staying awake until the matches end is a struggle sometimes, to only slightly exaggerate... I do think there are times that I quit before finishing a match because of how boring the game is. I may find the VF series boring as well, but even the worst VF game isn't as boring as Soul Blade. I don'[t know if I can think of anything positive to say about Soul Blade other than that it plays. It's definitely a game I PS1 fans like to massively overrate, both in gameplay and its CG intro; I remember people in college insisting that the Soul Blade intro looked so cool at the time. I don't see it, but I don't see much quality in the game either. Soul Blade isn't TERRIBLE, but it's below average, really bland, and isn't any fun to play. At least it did well enough to get a sequel, though...


... That's kind of crazy. Fighters Megamix is okay but not great; even just in the fighting game genre there are many, many 2d fighters on the Saturn better than any pretty much any 3d fighter of the generation... 2d fighters on the Saturn hold up. 3d, not really. (But at least that's better than the PS1 where neither kind does!)


I don't think I'd have many 3d fighters in my fighting game top 10 either. It'd certainly be almost all 2d games, since I definitely think that 2d fighting games are better than 3d ones. (Oh yeah, and SNK is awesome. Last Blade 2 is my favorite fighting game. And my favorite Capcom fighter is CvS2, a game that has a lot of SNK characters in it...)
Click to expand...
Why is it bad design that throws do a lot of damage? Do you know how throws work in VF? Unlike any 2D fighter and most other 3D fighters, you cannot throw an attacking opponent in VF. You have to make your opponent block to earn a throw, and you're risking getting launched in doing so. As for the speed of rounds, VF isn't fast because it's high damage, it's fast because the exchanges between characters are very short. There are no block strings, if your attack is blocked your turn is over. I understand that you aren't completely familiar with the series so it's not your fault for failing to see its qualities but I'd hope you'd at least keep an open mind. For someone claiming the game has aged poorly, you should at least know what crouch dash is as it is 100% essential to the series' movement.
 
Genesis Knight

Genesis Knight

Member
Regarding this whole 3D fighters on Sat/PS1 thing... There's a difference between:

1) A platform not having the technical capability to execute on a design
2) The concepts for the design not existing yet at the point in time of the platform's life

Of all genres, 3D fighters are one of the most limited in terms of their exploitation of hardware improvements. What do newer fighters use all the increased horsepower of newer systems for other than increased graphical fidelity? Beyond interactive/tiered/destructible/changing fighting environments, not much.

I think most of the objections to Sat/PS1 fighters feeling out of date or this or that is due to the genre being young and therefore still in an embryonic state mechanically. It's not as if most mechanics of newer fighters were impossible to execute on 5th generation hardware, they just hadn't been innovated yet.

It's the same reason there's not an exact (in terms of mechanics) clone of Metal Slug on the Genesis. The Genesis could of course run a perfect copy (again, speaking of mechanics and not graphics) of Metal Slug - but the exact parameters of player response, weapon tuning, enemy behavior, and so on had not been innovated yet.
 
O

oneida

Cock Strain, Lifetime Warranty
Genesis Knight said:
Of all genres, 3D fighters are one of the most limited in terms of their exploitation of hardware improvements. What do newer fighters use all the increased horsepower of newer systems for other than increased graphical fidelity? Beyond interactive/tiered/destructible/changing fighting environments, not much.
Click to expand...
Do you feel this is restricted to 3D fighters? is there a reason that 3S couldn't be effectively approximated on the SNES or, hell, the NES? (number of buttons notwithstanding)
 
K

Khaz

Member
Conezays said:
I've read a few contradictory things online about this and wondering if any of you know.
I have a NA Saturn System with Action Replay Cart. Am I able to play a PAL copy of Exhumed without issues?
Click to expand...

Yes, Exhumed wasn't optimised and plays 20% too slow on a PAL console. Playing it on a modded console or an NTSC console brings the original gameplay speed back to normal. I play it in my 60Hz switched PAL console.

This list is better btw, http://www.segasaturn.co.uk/games/sega_saturn_pal.html
 
Genesis Knight

Genesis Knight

Member
oneida said:
Do you feel this is restricted to 3D fighters? is there a reason that 3S couldn't be effectively approximated on the SNES or, hell, the NES? (number of buttons notwithstanding)
Click to expand...

You can't entirely rule out a change in input technology, since they (six buttons, analog controls, etc) actually do radically impact a genre's gameplay mechanics!

But in general, I agree that it's not restricted to 3D fighters.

Would we agree that once a genre's mechanics have reached a certain level of maturity, it's not technology that brings innovation...but instead the human element of developers and gameplay designers?

It's in that sense that maybe one could argue that 3D fighters are somewhat unique, because they seemed to have been almost borne mechanically mature... Or maybe that's just a statement of how relatively little the genre has changed since its inception compared to, say, FPS. With FPS, the technological move to full polygonal 3D changed gameplay mechanics radically, and the mechanics changed again once rendering capability was enough to achieve near photo-realism.

Or to take another arcade staple, shmups. Shumps were already pretty mature in the 16-bit era, but danmaku wasn't feasible until more powerful hardware came along - and at that point the genre took advantage of it to introduce a new mechanic.

I dunno.
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
SevenDevils said:
You're leaving the cart in all the time, correct? Those slots are flakey as hell. Taking it in and out will stretch the pins.

Never owned a Dreamcast, I feel I should grab one just for Soul Calibur.
Click to expand...

yeah, 645 was on about that a while back, i never take my RAM cart out of my saturn now. and that last statement blows my mind, for real
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
it's cool though - you've a fantastic library to explore one day, and while some prices have gone up (especially the capcom stuff), a lot of it is still far more affordable than the saturn's gems, at least!
 
M

MikeMyers

Member
Wait a sec, VF2 plays too slow but the matches are too fast? That's an interesting one.

And SevenDevils, I'll trade you a DC w/ Soul Calibur for a Master System. :p
 
M

MikeMyers

Member
Well when I get my Genesis working, I'll see if I can find a way to get the MS BC for it.

A shame Master System wasnt a main character in that Sega anime.
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
really do need to get a Master System again, passed on one last year in good shape for $40 complete & regretted it since

SevenDevils said:
Heh, even if I had one I wouldn't do that trade. Although, I am thinking of picking up a Master Gear Converter for the Game Gear. Haven't decided yet.
Click to expand...

is that what it was? i had some 3rd party one for mine as a kid, worked perfectly fine
 
B

blast processed

Member
IrishNinja said:
really do need to get a Master System again, passed on one last year in good shape for $40 complete & regretted it since



is that what it was? i had some 3rd party one for mine as a kid, worked perfectly fine
Click to expand...

Yea it's this first one.
SMSonGG.jpg
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
^nice! think i had the 2nd one growing up...are they still relatively cheap?

mind, my GG is kinda worthless until i get it LCD modded one day anyway...which really, id rather do for a Nomad, but i do miss a few GG titles
 
B

blast processed

Member
IrishNinja said:
^nice! think i had the 2nd one growing up...are they still relatively cheap?

mind, my GG is kinda worthless until i get it LCD modded one day anyway...which really, id rather do for a Nomad, but i do miss a few GG titles
Click to expand...

$20ish I love my Gear. I'm sure I'm the only one on the boards that plays one. lol
 
A Black Falcon

A Black Falcon

Member
oneida said:
Why is it bad design that throws do a lot of damage? Do you know how throws work in VF? Unlike any 2D fighter and most other 3D fighters, you cannot throw an attacking opponent in VF. You have to make your opponent block to earn a throw, and you're risking getting launched in doing so. As for the speed of rounds, VF isn't fast because it's high damage, it's fast because the exchanges between characters are very short. There are no block strings, if your attack is blocked your turn is over. I understand that you aren't completely familiar with the series so it's not your fault for failing to see its qualities but I'd hope you'd at least keep an open mind. For someone claiming the game has aged poorly, you should at least know what crouch dash is as it is 100% essential to the series' movement.
Click to expand...
It's not only throws that do a lot of damage, it's most moves; that's the only way that rounds end as fast as they do. First, remember that when I criticized short rounds in fighting games I'm not only talking about VF, but about all of the 3d fighters that have that style of rounds -- VF, DoA, Tekken, etc. It's not about just one of them. I don't like that design style and think it's kind of bad compared to what you see in Capcom or SNK 2d fighting games. What's good about fighting game rounds that end in three hits? How is that fun? You can probably get through an entire GAME of Tekken 3 in, like, five minutes. That's just ridiculous. I much prefer the added strategy of the longer rounds of a 2d fighting game.

So, do I know how throws work in VF games specifically? No, I don't, but it's not important to the point. I'm not only talking about VF there, I'm also talking about games I know a lot better like DoA. I like Dead or Alive, particularly from the second game on. They are fun games to play, and playing them makes me want to play the games more and maybe try to get better, too. Virtua Fighter does the opposite; playing those games doesn't make me want to care one bit about learning how to play better, it just makes me want to stop playing Virtua Fighter.

I don't think "get better at a game you dislike, you were were better at the game you'd like it more" is a particularly good argument... while there may be cases where this is true, much more often it isn't. Most of the time it's not too hard to tell after a while if you're going to like a game or not, whether or not you're good at the game at that point. Again though, I think talking only about VF kind of misses the point because I have the same complaint, short rounds, about games I know better.


On another note, another thing I dislike about Virtua Fighter in specific, and many of Sega's other 3d fighting games as well, is the lacking presentation. It's really too bad that Sega didn't care about story or endings, they are something which matter in arcade fighting games. Several points:

- There is no story ingame, and no endings for the characters. Beating the game and then getting ... nothing, or just a single static image, or such, is pretty lame. And yet all of Sega's Saturn 3d fighting games do exactly that. So does Dead or Alive 1, though 2 at least added short endings. Last Bronx actually claims to have a story, but you'll see none of it in the game. Etc.

- So while playing VF2 yesterday, after several tries at that tough Dural fight in VF2, which is made harder because it doesn't allow you to continue in that match (why??) AND the round plays in this underwater stage with like 10% game speed for maximum annoyance and no-fun factor, I finally beat him, and I got... absolutely nothing. Just the same exact single static "Congratulations" image you get if you lose. What were they thinking? I wasn't expecting better, but it was still disappointing.

MikeMyers said:
Wait a sec, VF2 plays too slow but the matches are too fast? That's an interesting one.
Click to expand...
Thanks to very high damage per hit, both of those things are pretty much true. Though as I said, VF2 isn't as slow as many other 3d fighters that generation.
 
O

oneida

Cock Strain, Lifetime Warranty
A Black Falcon said:
It's not only throws that do a lot of damage, it's most moves; that's the only way that rounds end as fast as they do. First, remember that when I criticized short rounds in fighting games I'm not only talking about VF, but about all of the 3d fighters that have that style of rounds -- VF, DoA, Tekken, etc. It's not about just one of them. I don't like that design style and think it's kind of bad compared to what you see in Capcom or SNK 2d fighting games. What's good about fighting game rounds that end in three hits? How is that fun? You can probably get through an entire GAME of Tekken 3 in, like, five minutes. That's just ridiculous. I much prefer the added strategy of the longer rounds of a 2d fighting game.

So, do I know how throws work in VF games specifically? No, I don't, but it's not important to the point. I'm not only talking about VF there, I'm also talking about games I know a lot better like DoA. I like Dead or Alive, particularly from the second game on. They are fun games to play, and playing them makes me want to play the games more and maybe try to get better, too. Virtua Fighter does the opposite; playing those games doesn't make me want to care one bit about learning how to play better, it just makes me want to stop playing Virtua Fighter.

I don't think "get better at a game you dislike, you were were better at the game you'd like it more" is a particularly good argument... while there may be cases where this is true, much more often it isn't. Most of the time it's not too hard to tell after a while if you're going to like a game or not, whether or not you're good at the game at that point. Again though, I think talking only about VF kind of misses the point because I have the same complaint, short rounds, about games I know better.


On another note, another thing I dislike about Virtua Fighter in specific, and many of Sega's other 3d fighting games as well, is the lacking presentation. It's really too bad that Sega didn't care about story or endings, they are something which matter in arcade fighting games. Several points:

- There is no story ingame, and no endings for the characters. Beating the game and then getting ... nothing, or just a single static image, or such, is pretty lame. And yet all of Sega's Saturn 3d fighting games do exactly that. So does Dead or Alive 1, though 2 at least added short endings. Last Bronx actually claims to have a story, but you'll see none of it in the game. Etc.

- So while playing VF2 yesterday, after several tries at that tough Dural fight in VF2, which is made harder because it doesn't allow you to continue in that match (why??) AND the round plays in this underwater stage with like 10% game speed for maximum annoyance and no-fun factor, I finally beat him, and I got... absolutely nothing. Just the same exact single static "Congratulations" image you get if you lose. What were they thinking? I wasn't expecting better, but it was still disappointing.


Thanks to very high damage per hit, both of those things are pretty much true. Though as I said, VF2 isn't as slow as many other 3d fighters that generation.
Click to expand...
Rather than argue your distorted outlook of what VF2 is, I'm just going to post a video of it being played. If you think this is the game you've just described, I'm certain this discussion can't go anywhere.

http://youtu.be/aiPaNN97z90

I also didn't tell you to get better so I'm not sure where you've quoted that from.
 
M

MikeMyers

Member
Eh, I played Alpha 2 just yesterday and beat it in a quick time. The only single players that usually take a while for me is MK, mainly because the AI is so broken you gotta cheese your way through it. Though I'm more about the multiplayer, not the single player.

Cinematic presentation is a personal preference, and not one of mine. I'm glad VF doesn't have a story mode. Games like MK and Tekken have such bloated stories at this point its kinda embarrassing. How many times does X have to die and come back next game?

I don't really see what makes DOA's gameplay so special compared to other fighters. The only thing that comes to mind is are the interactive stages, although IMO the new stages in the latest game are kind of bland.
 
O

oneida

Cock Strain, Lifetime Warranty
VF is a competitive series first and foremost, cinematic endings may help the series appeal to a general audience but to criticize its damage values without understanding the way the game operates on a basic fundamental level is pretty silly.
 
A Black Falcon

A Black Falcon

Member
oneida said:
Rather than argue your distorted outlook of what VF2 is, I'm just going to post a video of it being played. If you think this is the game you've just described, I'm certain this discussion can't go anywhere.

http://youtu.be/aiPaNN97z90

I also didn't tell you to get better so I'm not sure where you've quoted that from.
Click to expand...
Why are you still focusing on only VF when the point about round times applies to many series? DoA1 and Tekken 3 are the games that gen I've played the most of with overly short rounds. It's really annoying in both of them. Longer rounds are better. (This is an issue in Fighting Vipers too; that one is my favorite of Sega's Saturn 3d fighters.)

oneida said:
VF is a competitive series first and foremost, cinematic endings may help the series appeal to a general audience
Click to expand...
All fighting games are competitive, that's not a good excuse.

but to criticize its damage values without understanding the way the game operates on a basic fundamental level is pretty silly.
Click to expand...
I understand that rounds end in seconds most of the time, because hits do a lot of damage so characters go down very fast. Anything beyond that doesn't change the point.

MikeMyers said:
Eh, I played Alpha 2 just yesterday and beat it in a quick time.
Click to expand...
Sure that's possible, in some games, but it takes far more skill to finish a 2d fighter like that really fast than it does a 3d fighter like the ones I'm talking about. Far more.

The only single players that usually take a while for me is MK, mainly because the AI is so broken you gotta cheese your way through it. Though I'm more about the multiplayer, not the single player.
Click to expand...
I mostly play single player in fighting games because I've rarely known people in person to play them against. For newer games that do have online play, even when I can find a game in something most people who play regularly are really good, and losing most of the time gets old after a while.

Cinematic presentation is a personal preference, and not one of mine. I'm glad VF doesn't have a story mode. Games like MK and Tekken have such bloated stories at this point its kinda embarrassing. How many times does X have to die and come back next game?
Click to expand...
I want fighting game sto have a story mode, it makes them more interesting. The stories of the KOF games are ridiculous, but that's a part off the charm! I've never been an MK or Tekken fan, but I like SNK, and the stories in games like KOF or Samurai Shodown do matter to me. In comparison the incredibly dry 'the game is just you fighting against other virtual players in a virtual arcade' "story" of VF4 and VF5 is quite uninteresting. That makes me think, like, are the VF characters even real? They have cameos in other games though, but in their own they don't exist and are just videogame characters! That's pretty weird... but Sega doesn't care, or want to try to tell a story in the series. Ah well.

I don't really see what makes DOA's gameplay so special compared to other fighters. The only thing that comes to mind is are the interactive stages, although IMO the new stages in the latest game are kind of bland.
Click to expand...
Probably the main thing that makes DoA different is the counter system. That's its main unique point compared to other 3d fighters. The interactive stages are cool too, but other 3d fighting games have done that -- see Tobal or Mace, for example. Of course other games have done counters too, but only DoA has counters as a centrally important part of a major 3d fighting game series, with their own dedicated button and everything.

Counters really do change a game -- compare how the The Last Blade games, which do have a counter button, play so differently from the Samurai Shodown series, which does not, for example. I like Last Blade more than SamSho in part because of the counter system, though I like the characters, graphics, art design, difficulty curve and general pace of play better as well.

MikeMyers said:
I'd rather watch the VF anime than watch clips of story modes from other fighting games anyway. :p
Click to expand...
As you can probably guess, I have done the latter of those, but not the former, so I feel differently. :)
 
J

jerry1594

Member
Man now I wanna play VF2. Also Sega should keep re releasing the Saturn controller for every console every gen, actually kind of perplexed that they don't lol
 
O

oneida

Cock Strain, Lifetime Warranty
ABF I can tell you appreciate these games on a casual level so I don't really know how to respond to you anymore. I'm sorry if 3D fighters don't appeal to you but to imply they require less skill due to higher damage levels is absolutely hilarious.
 
O

oneida

Cock Strain, Lifetime Warranty
And for the record, the quest mode you describe from VF4 and VF5 is not a story mode. The characters in VF are "real" in that they exist in the game's universe and the story for the characters has existed since VF1, in the same place you find the story for every Street Fighter before IV: the instruction manual. There's no story mode as the games are simply ports of arcade games - its there if you want to know about it but otherwise the series isnt really interested in telling a story.
 
M

MikeMyers

Member
I agree with oneida, it just seems 3D Fighters aren't your thing ABF.

But at the same time, you have to accept the fact that people do like them. Especially in a thread dedicated to a console whose top selling game was a 3D Fighter.
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
for years ive said Tobal No 1 is the best fighter of all time for its quest mode

of all time

for real though, Bushido Blade is awesome
 
StevieWhite

StevieWhite

Member
But Ehrgeiz has a better Quest mode! ... hey, wait, why are we talking about PSX games?

...In other news, does anybody know if there is a comprehensive list of games that utilize the system clock out there? Everyone know about SOTN, Steep Slope Sliders, Christmas Nights, and the obvious ones, but are there any out there that slide under the radar?

I know Enemy Zero tells you Merry Christmas when you load a saved game on 12/25. I also remember hearing that Albert Odyssey had a hidden side quest tied to the system clock.
 
S

sixteen-bit

Member
Pizarro said:
Man now I wanna play VF2. Also Sega should keep re releasing the Saturn controller for every console every gen, actually kind of perplexed that they don't lol
Click to expand...

I know, right? It would sell gangbusters.

That reminds me, Shane Bettenhausen was tweeting about PS4 Saturn pads a few months ago, I wonder what happened with that.
 
Genesis Knight

Genesis Knight

Member
StevieWhite said:
But Ehrgeiz has a better Quest mode! ... hey, wait, why are we talking about PSX games?

...In other news, does anybody know if there is a comprehensive list of games that utilize the system clock out there? Everyone know about SOTN, Steep Slope Sliders, Christmas Nights, and the obvious ones, but are there any out there that slide under the radar?

I know Enemy Zero tells you Merry Christmas when you load a saved game on 12/25. I also remember hearing that Albert Odyssey had a hidden side quest tied to the system clock.
Click to expand...

Not comprehensive but here's some:

"6.6 What games take advantage of the clock/calendar?"
http://www.gamefaqs.com/saturn/916393-sega-saturn/faqs/6458

I can't seem to find a comprehensive list.
 
K

Khaz

Member
C

Conezays

Member
sixteen-bit said:
I was asking if that white piece was white like a model 2, gray like a model 1, or translucent black like the body of the controller. I got my answer. Thank you.
Click to expand...

Gotcha. It's at least a little more colourful and interesting than the standard NA black model IMO (and cheaper no less).
 
J

jerry1594

Member
sixteen-bit said:
I know, right? It would sell gangbusters.

That reminds me, Shane Bettenhausen was tweeting about PS4 Saturn pads a few months ago, I wonder what happened with that.
Click to expand...
I'd pick it up immediately. Missed out on the PC/PS2 controllers when they were out now they're really pricey. I like the ps2 iteration the best overall but if I put some silicon grease on the others' dpads maybe they'll feel better.
Conezays said:
Gotcha. It's at least a little more colourful and interesting than the standard NA black model IMO (and cheaper no less).
Click to expand...
Not really, you found one for a good price. These usually go for a few dollars more at least, online.
 
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