Can I have a citation? I believe you, but I can't exactly reference a forum post when discussing this with people not on GAF.
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Sega Saturn Appreciation and Emulation Thread
- Thread starter Seik
- Start date
Can I have a citation? I believe you, but I can't exactly reference a forum post when discussing this with people not on GAF.
Bar81
Member
Not properly it can't. That is why the mesh is used so often (like in LS II) and outside of a few very late games (like BR) which employed clever hacks to generate the effect you don't see it on 3D SS games.
Saturn supports semitransparency but there were several drawbacks that's why most developer didn't bother with and simply used meshing.
https://segaxtreme.net/threads/saturn-transparencies.12146/
Bar81
Member
Exactly what I said. It doesn't properly support transparencies in 3D. That thread has more details for the curious.
I was enriching the conversation therefore the useful link.
Bar81
Member
Fair enough. Sorry if I jumped down your throat.
Saturn Memories
Neo Member
Older 3D games use it as well. The homing lasers in the original Panzer Dragoon are transparent (though it's difficult to see unless you pause the game).
Looking at some old Sega Saturn Magazine UK issues it gives some HMV charts but no numbers. Either way, judging from these charts, it seems like Sega Rally and Virtua Fighter 2 were the most popular games there.
It'd be interesting to get European software sales for the system.
It'd be interesting to get European software sales for the system.
Mr. Pointy
Member
The Saturn VDP1 (the main graphics chip) can do transparency, but it's only one mode which doesn't look all that impressive, it's finicky to get working and the VDP1 hasn't got the fill rate to do lots of them like the Playstation can. For 2D it wasn't too bad, but for 3D it choked hard when you'd start throwing effects on screen. That's why most games resort to dithering for 3D transparency effects. You have to remember though, that most people with a Saturn back in the day were using composite, which will blur the crosshatching effect enough for it to look passably transparent.
The VDP2 (the background layer chip) can do background layer transparencies for free (Panzer Dragoon water, etc.).
And there's also a bug where VDP2 transparencies will eat sprites if they pass in front of it or something.
The VDP2 (the background layer chip) can do background layer transparencies for free (Panzer Dragoon water, etc.).
And there's also a bug where VDP2 transparencies will eat sprites if they pass in front of it or something.
Nice giveaway! I've never played it but I'm new to the Saturn and love fighting games. I'm actually planning on recording my first playthroughs of my Saturn titles and putting them on YouTube so people can see how bad at games I am while enjoying it. xP
Here was one of my MvC2 mains.
InfiniteNine, it's yours!
It wasn't easy to choose, but your plan to share your experience was what finally tipped it in your favor for me.
I wish I had one more of these to give. PM me your information and I'll see if I can get it mailed before we're out of year.
cj_iwakura
Member
It's fantastic. Unforgettably gripping, and often terrifying.
...are you buying all these recommendations? Bottomless wallet.
(I've owned D for years, and love it dearly. Shame about the god-awful sequel[which I also own].)
cj_iwakura
Member
D2. And I have no idea what it goes for, but keep in mind the game is roughly 3 hours long. If that.
cj_iwakura
Member
DC version being inferior? Not surprised.
3 hours isn't too bad but it doesn't look like something one would replay a lot.
It's one of a kind, that's for sure. The atmosphere is thick with dread.
Yeah, WARP games are really unique.
Check this one out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Sound:_Kaze_no_Regret
Check this one out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Sound:_Kaze_no_Regret
dreamcastmaster
Banned
Do you know why the Saturn "can't do" transparencies? That's because that graphical effect has exactly zero benefit for gameplay. Let's create a list of graphical effects like sprites and gouraud shading that the PlayStation does not do as well.
System wars bullshit is not needed in a retro topic.
I have it. You can get get it real cheap on saturn or dreamcast. Nice packaging and interesting game. Oh yeah, also it features a crapton of dialogue and the DC version has some 'graphics' while on Saturn it's only blackness. I guess it's a bit like an audiobook.
Ingueferroque
Banned
Saturn can do transparencies.
Panzer Dragoon Saga also has cool transparency effects.
Mr. Pointy
Member
Cool transparency.
But PS1 can do gouraud shading in hardware...
I would say that in holiday '95 Saturn had the best looking 3D games on consoles with the likes of Sega Rally, Virtua Fighter 2 and Virtua Cop (and Panzer Dragoon Zwei a few months later).
God bless AM teams.
Bar81
Member
Wow are you clueless. Try reading the thread before making an ass out of yourself. We were discussing a particular game (Layer Section II/Raystorm) and why the PSX port is superior.
StevieWhite
Member
I think this is true for the most part, but third party titles generally managed to look better on the PSX, which really fueled the fire.
Also, I tend to remember Saturn games having far worse pop-in. For this reason, I was amazingly overjoyed when I played Sonic R for the first time. The "fade in" looks kinda excessive now, but at the time, I remember thinking that it was the beginning of a new era of 3D greatness.
D.Lo
Member
Yeah. Through 96 as well (though may be delayed for me because of PAL delays). I remember seeing Sega Rally vs Ridge Racer Revolution. VF2 vs Tekken 2 (and Toshinden).
PSX looked bad at the start by comparison. And by the time it was improving N64 was out and looked like it would wipe the floor with everyone lol.
PSX had the most graphical improvement over its lifetime of any console except the Famicom IMO, every last ounce of juice was squeezed from it, while Saturn was killed before it was pushed all the way. I would love if somehow some compiled Saturn Shenmue disc appeared, just to see what it could have achieved.
Mr. Pointy
Member
The Saturn definitely had some untapped grunt. What AM2 accomplished with the Shenmue demo was pretty impressive. I can't help but imagine what a 3D game utilising the 4MB RAM cart would look like.
sixteen-bit
Member
like Final Fight Revenge
Mr. Pointy
Member
^
So no change then.
So no change then.
InfiniteNine
Rolling Girl
InfiniteNine, it's yours!
It wasn't easy to choose, but your plan to share your experience was what finally tipped it in your favor for me.
I wish I had one more of these to give. PM me your information and I'll see if I can get it mailed before we're out of year.
Thank you very much Gyrian! I'm sure I'll enjoy it a lot and hopefully it gets others interested in the game as well.
Also in other news I just got home and got my new housing for my NA copy of Shining the Holy Ark.
Going to keep the NA box and JP disk together elsewhere since I see no reason to throw them out.
I am going to sound like a scratched record but that 3D engine by Travelers Tales along with the 3D stuff by Lobotomy put their games above all other 3rd party devs at that time. If only there were licensed out to other 3rd parties.
All the Shining Force III games look great too and even a few Hudson Soft games had solid 3D stuff happening.
"By Hudo San"
bulk slash gaming
Game Arts (Grandia, Gungriffon I/II), Atlus/Cave (Touge 2) and Tecmo (Dead or Alive) also did some very well done 3D games for Saturn.
Saturn Memories
Neo Member
Plenty Saturn games do. I only went with Burning Rangers because it puts so many transparencies on screen all at once. Of course the framerate isn't so hot and the polygons tend to flicker a lot, but that's beside the point!
s_mirage
Member
That's not really a bug, it's just a side effect of that particular method of transparency. VDP2 makes certain VDP1 generated pixels transparent against VDP2 planes, but since the objects were all opaque when VDP1 generated them, objects behind what will become the transparency are therefore hidden/not rendered in VDP1's output, and so it looks like they disappear.
By the way, I know there hasn't been a release in forever, but has SSF actually been getting gradually worse for years? Corpse Killer (a true classic), for example, worked properly until 0.08 alpha 5, worked until you change the disc from then until 0.10 beta r1, and has been a stuttering mess in all versions after that.
Another example is Steam Heart's. It's gone from working perfectly, to crashing the emulator if you let the intro play, to not working at all.
blast processed
Member
If you like dungeon crawlers it's one of the best in the genre. Not too hard, not too easy. Great music, decent graphics. I like the prerendered look of the characters. Pixies are fun to use, but finding them all is a pain, just doing minimal searching will uncover most of them though & some places seem pretty obvious.
Saving is done in town and while you venture out, you could go an hour or more without the ability to save. Just keep that in mind when sitting down to play it. If you die you still keep your experience points. Once you clear a dungeon and move the story forward, backtracking through a dungeon isn't bad because the random encounters drop off a bit.
The dialogue feels a little clumsy at first and I really did not like how the story starts especially with extra terrestrials but once I got round that I find the gameplay is stellar. I wish the magic attacks had a bit more sparkle to them to make it really stand out but the battle system is tops.
One of the characters Doyle will join you later on but he is a little tricky to find so you can miss him in a playthrough .
Saturn Memories
Neo Member
0.12 beta R4 tends to display horizontal black bars in some games (not scanlines), but 0.12 beta R3 is pretty solid. I've played Steam Heart's to completion in R3 without any issues. The only major problem I've encountered is with audio running a little behind video in a few games. For example in Twinkle Star Sprites, the dialogue between Load Run and her opponents is out of sync. And in Keio Flying Squadron 2, the cutscenes between stages end before Rami finishes talking.
s_mirage
Member
IIRC Steam Heart's works fine for me in 0.12 beta R3 and R4 as long as I don't let the intro play. It crashes on exiting the intro if I do. R2 is totally fine. The current test version is where it doesn't work at all (sound but black screen).
Uh....Golden Axe: The Duel?
blast processed
Member
Battle Monsters
sixteen-bit
Member
Groove On Fight
Astra Super Stars (requires 4meg ram cart tho)
Rabbit
Asuka 120% burning fest limited
Gaurdian Heroes
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Anyone have an idea why SSF might be crashing on boot with a "????CD??????????" error prompt?
I've been installing and uninstalling various virtual drive programs to try and find one that suits all my needs lately. That's the only thing I can think of that might be screwing with things.
I've been installing and uninstalling various virtual drive programs to try and find one that suits all my needs lately. That's the only thing I can think of that might be screwing with things.