cireza
Member
So at least you admit that you have no clue what you are talking about.I dont even think Saturn could do them.
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So at least you admit that you have no clue what you are talking about.I dont even think Saturn could do them.
Seems most here are even older than meYou're really still in console war mode, even after more then a quarter of a century?
This doesn't make sense. A chip responsible for applying transparency on objects necessarily has to be the one generating these objects as well as knowing what is behind them.But if I remember correctly, the chip responsible for handling the transparency effect and the chip for rendering polygons were seperate.
You're a clown if you believe this bullshit you are spouting.Considering your tag is GAF's Resident Saturn Omnibus, who knew you'd defend Saturn to the bone.
You're going by 1997 comparisons? What happened to 1994, 1995, and 1996? By 1997, Saturn was already on deaths door knocking.
You can back up Saturn all you want, but it was a lousy system. Overpriced, the game library was laughable compared to PS1 (unless someone is a big Sega arcade gamer), and the games were outright better on PS1. The system was also smaller to boot for gamers who dont want giant Saturns in their TV stand.
You're probably the only guy on Earth who thinks Saturn and PS1 are "practically wins".
Not only transparencies though, Saturn wasn't quite at the same level at lighting especially, pure geometry throughput & transform. The machine didn't have anything akin to PlayStation's GTE (Geometry Transform Engine) coprocessor after all. Multiplatform 3D games tended to have less details/geometry alongside worse frame rate on Saturn. Transparency problem was just a facet.You couldn't do the PS1 transparencies the same on the Saturn. The hardware just couldn't do it. Even with certain hacks that games tried to use to get transparencies, it was just never going to be the same. That's just a hardware limitation.
This is wrong. Saturn had a dedicated DSP for geometry, matrix, vector, lighting calculations...The machine didn't have anything akin to PlayStation's GTE (Geometry Transform Engine) coprocessor after all
Are you really saying that Saturn was PS1's equal as to 3D capabilities, effects, transparencies, lighting, geometry etc?.. Were you around at the time playing games on both systems? Did you read developer comments stating overwhelmingly otherwise in gaming magazines of the time? As to 3D/60 FPS fighting games, did you see Tobal no 2 running?.. Saturn couldn't possibly output anything close to it. A machine's higher difficulty of programming doesn't automatically makes it his competitor's equal, PS3/X360 example doesn't apply to everything. Now, i liked the Saturn and spend a fair amount of time playing 2D fighting games like King of Fighters on it with friends. That was the best platform for those kind of games because the RAM pack allowed for more sprites/animation frames to be rendered essentially and the pad was really well suited for the occasion.hey now: the Dreamcast days were craaaaazy. As a life-long Sega fan, I couldn't have been more happy back then.
The DC was bringing me arcade games upgraded.
In the first year of ownership I played Soul Calibur and Shenmue. I could have died a happy gamer.
And the Saturn days were good too, unless you were focused on some PS-only games. But even then, the first years were fine: you had basically every big release, together with the Saturn-only games (which are a lot, and many are even better than counterparts).
About the 3D capabilities: the Saturn was notoriously harder to code for, but it could do almost everything, or everything in a different way with similar results (including transparencies: see Nights and Team Andromeda's games).
And many games were way higher res than comparable games on PS1, like Virtua Fighter 2 (at 60 fps too).
For many games, I dont think the core visuals were even improved. All they did was add some FMV clips and better sound like voiceovers and better music (NHL 94). The rest of the game seemed the exact same.
Nobody outside a few luminaries and Sega's marketing ever really liked fmv games, this is why they disappeared so fast.From what I read in mags, saw in stores, and watched clips on the net, Sega CD games were great if a gamer loved FMV (which was the craze at the time), and highly valued CD audio. If not, dont bother. The core visuals in gameplay barely looked better and the loading times could be crippling. It has a scaling effect feature, but no better than what SNES could do. So it was an easy pass for me.
Still, if Sega were a bit more thoughtful and took time to do a brand new enhanced port of Golden Axe
No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that in some games it showed it could do similar things. PS1 3D capabilities were definitely superior, and it was designed to be like that.Are you really saying that Saturn was PS1's equal as to 3D capabilities, effects, transparencies, lighting, geometry etc?.. Were you around at the time playing games on both systems? Did you read developer comments stating overwhelmingly otherwise in gaming magazines of the time? As to 3D/60 FPS fighting games, did you see Tobal no 2 running?.. Saturn couldn't possibly output anything close to it. A machine's higher difficulty of programming doesn't automatically makes it his competitor's equal, PS3/X360 example doesn't apply to everything. Now, i liked the Saturn and spend a fair amount of time playing 2D fighting games like King of Fighters on it with friends. That was the best platform for those kind of games because the RAM pack allowed for more sprites/animation frames to be rendered essentially and the pad was really well suited for the occasion.
A slight misunderstanding then friend, sorry about that. Saturn had certainly unique strengths, as i said i quite liked the machine.No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that in some games it showed it could do similar things. PS1 3D capabilities were definitely superior, and it was designed to be like that.
Dismissing Saturn's 3D prowess though is just unfair to the machine. And yes, I was around, and I wasn't that young either xD
Late PS1 games were obvioulsy undoable on Saturn hardware. But still, it produced great results even in 3D.
3DO's main problem was its price...otherwise as 32 bit systems go for 1993 it was king of the hill (in terms of what it could do) up until Sega and Sony were ready to join the partyNah, Saturn was almost all SoJ's mistake. The reactionary changes were all primarily implemented by SoJ with little disregard to developer complaints.
You are right that they were not thinking much ahead or planning long-term in 1992. it's funny how 3Do, some new guy on the block had a better understanding of where things were going than Sega initially. Same with NEC, which thought FMV and clean 2D IQ was the future.
This is impossible to tell really. We can really only compare what was released during the same time-frame, and where the ambition was pretty much the same on games being compared.Late PS1 games were obvioulsy undoable on Saturn hardware.
A year after the Saturn Sega was in a money pit with losses in every part of the company or at least shrinking revenue. Both of which were bad.I would estimate their last chance was after playstation was taking the lead. The sould have figured out how to position the Saturn because they kept acting like they were toe to toe with sony.
Sega should have gone hard on localizing more games. And they could have had some greatest hits kind of pricing for all those short ass arcade ports. They should have been plotting and scheming how to do 3d sonic 24hrs a day.
So many things. After a year of Saturn, the 32x was behind them and it was clear that sony and nintendo were elbowing them out. That time window was their last chance to get a bunch of games out and make the Saturn at least go the distance and be notable for a library of unique games and a third-place than at least was supported through the generation.
By the time the Dreamcast came out, their reputation was ruined and I don't think they could have turned it around that late in the game.
The market didn't care about that based on how fast the 32X was selling. You're projecting a personal subjective opinion and ignoring the marketplace.The 32x may have been "smart" enough to work for a couple of months, but as soon as the Saturn showed up, or was even close to show up it did not make any sense....
Which doesn't refute what I'm saying, the amount of non-FMV games on the Sega CD decreased more and more over time which was my point. Sega saw FMV was more lucrative initially and though it was a better investment long term (t wasn't) yet ignored the fact that their video and graphic output on the Sega CD was pretty much outdated day one and only appealed as a novelty to Genesis owners.I had a Sega CD within weeks of its launch, here is a list of the launch titles.
U.S. launch: October 15, 1992
- Black Hole Assault
- Chuck Rock
- Cobra Command
- INXS: Make My Video
- Marky Mark: Make My Video
- Night Trap
- Sega Classics 4-in-1
- Sherlock Holmes: Consulting Detective
- Sol-Feace
- Sewer Shark
Sega CD released with 60% FMV games day 1
Phenomenal launch titles.The 32x may have been "smart" enough to work for a couple of months, but as soon as the Saturn showed up, or was even close to show up it did not make any sense.... Don't take this the wrong way, I really like some games on it, but there is no actual benefit to its presence and it caused confusion (what ANOTHER sega 32-bit machine).
Also, these things were less reliable than any piece of electronics I have ever seen.
This is not a myth, I was there.
I had a Sega CD within weeks of its launch, here is a list of the launch titles.
U.S. launch: October 15, 1992
- Black Hole Assault
- Chuck Rock
- Cobra Command
- INXS: Make My Video
- Marky Mark: Make My Video
- Night Trap
- Sega Classics 4-in-1
- Sherlock Holmes: Consulting Detective
- Sol-Feace
- Sewer Shark
Sega CD released with 60% FMV games day 1 (Sherlock Holmes, Sol Feace and the Classics 4 in 1) then all packages always had some sort of FMV game in them.
Now, as for the mood regarding this system, well the fact that it shipped with 6 extremely boring FMV games + 4 glorified cart games truly did not help its image. People noticed, it was a pretty hard sell after that, it took a while for the Sega CD to outgrow this stench (with Sonic CD, Final Fight CD, the driving in Batman, Silpheed, the Lunar games, and a few other titles that showed off what this system really could do). If anything there must have been a lot less FMV game after the first year or so, because few ever got ported or made for subsequent consoles like the 3D0, PSX and Saturn, even if they had access to much better color palettes.
Again, the vision that the Sega CD was an FMV machine partly killed it, Sega invested millions in a studio to make these high budget games too, such a waste or time and talent, these people at Sega of America killed their business.
3DO would just take PSX's place, and the 3DO/Panasonic/Goldstar/Sanyo combo would just use a similar strategy as the PSX, with the M2 being the equal to the PS2, 2 or 3 years early. Sony basically just took the 3DO company strategy with 5x the funding and 5x the marketing muscle. The third party first approach, the open access to the system, ease of license, ease of production, slow build of first party with early stuff being exclusive third-party partnerships, etc.The Saturn and 32X happened. Bigger issue being the Saturn because Sega barely supported the 32X. Sega soured retailers with the Saturn launch shenanigans and the Saturn was challenging to develop for making food usage of it's power an issue. Devs were also not as interested in the Ultra 64(N64) because it didn't use CDs and was delayed a year leaving them with the PS1 as the sweet spot console. No prior drama to deal with and easier to develop 3D games for than the Saturn.
Imo the Saturn was a great machine, I would have loved to see an alternate universe where Sony doesn't enter gaming to see how things shake out with the Saturn, N64, Atari Jaguar and the 3DO.
It has a scaling effect feature, but no better than what SNES could do. So it was an easy pass for me.
The honest truth is that PSX and Saturn are the most evenly matched consoles in the history of the medium.
I disagree. As you said, the bare minimum was running model 1 games and these games were inferior (in graphics) to what the PS1 was capable. Sega tried to showhorn 3D capabilities into the Saturn but it never really was enough to compete with the PS1. The playstation was from the ground up designed to be a 3D console and that shows. Sure, by todays standards, games on both consoles look dated, but back then there was definitly a gap between the two systems. Stuff like Metal Gear Solid, Silent Hill, Gran Turismo and the like would have never been possible on the Saturn. The Sega machine was amazing for 2D games and I think it even got a 4MB ram expansion which futher enhanced its 2D power, but at that time, people wanted everything BUT 2D games.
To add to this, the programming of the saturn was a absolute horror, if you wanted to squeeze out 3D performance. I found this video a few years ago and I was floored by how hecking hard it has been to get shit running on the saturn:
Compare this programming nightmare with the straightforward 1CPU approach of the playstation and you can understand why devs were not particulary fond of working with the saturn.
yeah but they dealt with that relatively quickly though it would help if they could have his $300 a bit earlier. Even then, with Sony and Saturn, they both, mostly Sony were basically running their early dats off shared 3Do games, and some 3DO games actually ran better than the other two, some which were curiosities such as Star Fighter. So 3Do still had press there, they needed to be $50 below PSX when it came out though, or at least with two free games. They did do both later, and it did pick up sales, but then they had to cut again after PSX had it's fairly quick first price cut, and they bleed themselves to death financially, which got them to can the M2.3DO's main problem was its price...otherwise as 32 bit systems go for 1993 it was king of the hill (in terms of what it could do) up until Sega and Sony were ready to join the party
This is impossible to tell really.
Two things.Are you really saying that Saturn was PS1's equal as to 3D capabilities, effects, transparencies, lighting, geometry etc?.. Were you around at the time playing games on both systems? Did you read developer comments stating overwhelmingly otherwise in gaming magazines of the time? As to 3D/60 FPS fighting games, did you see Tobal no 2 running?.. Saturn couldn't possibly output anything close to it. A machine's higher difficulty of programming doesn't automatically makes it his competitor's equal, PS3/X360 example doesn't apply to everything. Now, i liked the Saturn and spend a fair amount of time playing 2D fighting games like King of Fighters on it with friends. That was the best platform for those kind of games because the RAM pack allowed for more sprites/animation frames to be rendered essentially and the pad was really well suited for the occasion.
FMV games were around from 1983 to 1998, what do you mean "fast? Even the 90's pick up wave was 1990-1998. Capcom helped fund/publish Fox Hunt for a reason.Nobody outside a few luminaries and Sega's marketing ever really liked fmv games, this is why they disappeared so fast.
Sega was in the hole before Arcades were a factor, arcades really hit against the right before Model 3 came out and then started declining after, Sega expedited their fall though when that model 3 gamble didn't pay off, Where as Namco and Midway played it smarter.It was a perfect trifecta. I think people are underplaying the downfall/crash of the Arcade industry.
And this is the reason why the "this console can't do this game argument" is utterly pointless.It's the same reason you wouldn't be able to see Saturn VC2 on PS1
I'm not sure what you imply here, the only one I can think of as being memorable is that one with the knight and dragons... Even then, nobody thought that was a classic (other than for the quality of its visuals).FMV games were around from 1983 to 1998, what do you mean "fast? Even the 90's pick up wave was 1990-1998. Capcom helped fund/publish Fox Hunt for a reason.
FMV wasn't a fad, just people want to imagine they were, because they only played some bad shooter games like Mad Dog, or Sewer shark, or Johnny mnemonic.
Sega's problems were numerous in the early and mid-90's. However, I still maintain the singular thing that brought everything down was the decision to launch the Saturn in 1994 head-on versus the Playstation. The problem ultimately was Sony the corporation was too well-resourced and too well-branded, and Sega could only compete effectively if they had some edge that was readily apparent.
What Sega could have done was try to 'get around' the problem of Sony the corporation by committing to launching the Saturn later with clearly superior technology. Imagine if the Sega Saturn launched in Christmas 1996 for $300 with graphics that were a bit better than the N64, the ability to play either CD or cartridge-based games, and with about a dozen high-quality launch games (because Sega would have had more time to develop the launch lineup).
Instantly Sega has an edge, the gaming press is positive towards Sega, and Sega the company believes in the system.
we all make mistakes.I [chose the saturn over the ps1 and n64], had to wait a year for the good games to start to come out and the price to drop. Loved that console.
If they had used the Mega CD as designed a competitor to the PC Engine CDrom it would have been a great add-on. But no, Sega had to sell it in America as if it was a whole new system and then fill the library with FMV games when the base Megadrive could only output 64 colours, the one thing the Mega CD didn't improve on the palette.
Final Fight CD was awesome though, what could have been.![]()
Not really, consumers have expectations and so do professionals, and if one devices can't meet certain minimum expectations and the other can, that creates a problem.And this is the reason why the "this console can't do this game argument" is utterly pointless.
Gamers like to imagine scenarios where Sega could launch a more powerful console in 1995-96, particularly something superior to N64, but the simple truth is that unless they had a hardware partner willing to bear heavy costs, such a move would simply be impossible. Ultimately, you need a box that you can sell for $200 without bankrupting the company. That’s what killed Sega.
At the end of the day, Saturn cost $300 to build and its complex architecture and off-shelf components meant that price would never come down. Once Nintendo 64 launched at $200 and Sony followed in kind (they could afford to take large losses on PSX), Sega was dead.
This is why Sega America was so desperate to make a partnership with Matsushita and the 3DO M2 console. They essentially were looking to get out of the hardware business and handle software, but still have an exclusive branded system with their name on it. The deal fell through because 1) Matsushita wanted to license M2 to multiple companies (Sega wanted exclusivity) and 2) they just weren’t that interested in videogames. They saw no need to invade the living room, whereas Sony and Microsoft had grand long-term plans where games were really the Trojan horse.
By 1995, it should have been obvious that the future of videogames would be a Sony-Microsoft world, and the only way Sega or Nintendo could survive was through blockbuster software hits. Nintendo had those hits*. Sega did not.
(* P.S. Can we be honest and admit that Pokémon saved Nintendo’s bacon? If it weren’t for that monstrously successful franchise, Big N would have never survived the GameCube era.)
yes they did, many of them, this is more about your ignorance if anything about the amount of FMV games released. There were a lot of them for years, they were not short-lived or a fad, that's just what some people want to believe.Even less interactive game types like point and click adventures did not go for video.
I'd say, if you want to distill it down to one single moment...
Sega were doomed the second both they and Namco partnered with companies from the simulator industry to bring fancy, texture-mapped visuals to their arcade games
(Either that or, ironically, them releasing the original Virtua Fighter)
yes they did, many of them, this is more about your ignorance if anything about the amount of FMV games released. There were a lot of them for years, they were not short-lived or a fad, that's just what some people want to believe.
There have been a lot if you count all formats right from the start of gaming, but it's an indicator of gamings Hollywood envy and a technical short cut to "reality". They were never successful but developers kept on trying. It's still even then a minority genre.
It peaked and I don't see anyone else interested in trying.
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Enlighten me, because neither me nor any of my gaming friends, or anyone who I ever came across ever brought these FMV based games up as something they miss from yester years of gaming.yes they did, many of them, this is more about your ignorance if anything about the amount of FMV games released. There were a lot of them for years, they were not short-lived or a fad, that's just what some people want to believe.
If these are FMV games, Mortal Kombat and FF VII are "FMV" games too...7th guest sold over 2 million copies. Phantasmagoria sold over 1, Corpse Killer sold over 2, D sold around a million, Under a killing moon did around 500k, SW rebel assault 1.5 million, Wing Commander 3 700k-800k, SWAT 1 sold over a million, Iron helix 500k, Blade Runner over a million just off the top of my head and etc. etc.
7th guest sold over 2 million copies. Phantasmagoria sold over 1, Corpse Killer sold over 2, D sold around a million, Under a killing moon did around 500k, SW rebel assault 1.5 million, Wing Commander 3 700k-800k, SWAT 1 sold over a million, Iron helix 500k, Blade Runner over a million just off the top of my head and etc. etc.
Except that this situation dis not exist. Not to the extent your are implying. Both consoles were very capable and could run the same games during the same period. So nothing has been demonstrated about this in the end.Not really, consumers have expectations and so do professionals, and if one devices can't meet certain minimum expectations and the other can, that creates a problem.
You are looking at it as "both can do things the others can't do" instead of "one of the two that can do what the other can't do actually alligns with expectations and produces objective improvements the other does not meet with what it can do better"/
To be fair the cost of building the Saturn most certainly did come down over the console's life (eg by 1997 Hitachi were able to shrink both SH-2s into a single package), but you're write - it was the price war that did it for Sega. Even if a 1997 was 66% cheaper to produce than the original model, they'd still take a loss on the $99 price tag required by the market beyond 1998.At the end of the day, Saturn cost $300 to build and its complex architecture and off-shelf components meant that price would never come down. Once Nintendo 64 launched at $200 and Sony followed in kind (they could afford to take large losses on PSX), Sega was dead.
What's funny about this is midway was cleaning up with still great looking games with texture mapping that was beyond 99% of the arcade industry outside Sega and Namco, even Atari games did. They all did it at a decent price and attracting as much or more coin goers than the other two. I think that Model 1 would have been fine fo Sega if they supported it longer than they did before putting out the Model 2.
Model 1-3 all came out rather close together, and they were all increasing in suspense, and were becoming a financial issue for Sega, Model 3 was quite a gamble for "long-term" Arcade viability that didn't happen. Those games were 100% impressive....for not even a full year before some of those elements were being met by other arcade games and PC? And then surpassed a year after that?
Wing Commander is the most egregious game to include in this list, this is a space simulator with an elaborate scenario, but like the others the game is not FMV. FMV is used for cut scenes, that has never been a problem (unless you can't skip the cut scenes).
I disagree. As you said, the bare minimum was running model 1 games and these games were inferior (in graphics) to what the PS1 was capable. Sega tried to showhorn 3D capabilities into the Saturn but it never really was enough to compete with the PS1. The playstation was from the ground up designed to be a 3D console and that shows. Sure, by todays standards, games on both consoles look dated, but back then there was definitly a gap between the two systems. Stuff like Metal Gear Solid, Silent Hill, Gran Turismo and the like would have never been possible on the Saturn. The Sega machine was amazing for 2D games and I think it even got a 4MB ram expansion which futher enhanced its 2D power, but at that time, people wanted everything BUT 2D games.
To add to this, the programming of the saturn was a absolute horror, if you wanted to squeeze out 3D performance. I found this video a few years ago and I was floored by how hecking hard it has been to get shit running on the saturn:
Compare this programming nightmare with the straightforward 1CPU approach of the playstation and you can understand why devs were not particulary fond of working with the saturn.
3DO would just take PSX's place, and the 3DO/Panasonic/Goldstar/Sanyo combo would just use a similar strategy as the PSX, with the M2 being the equal to the PS2, 2 or 3 years early. Sony basically just took the 3DO company strategy with 5x the funding and 5x the marketing muscle. The third party first approach, the open access to the system, ease of license, ease of production, slow build of first party with early stuff being exclusive third-party partnerships, etc.
Saturn would be in a worse position because they wouldn't have Sony to react to, Sega wouldn't know about the 3DO performance until it launched in Japan from all evidence that's out there, they only knew about Jaguar and then Sony. Sega knew of the 3DO company and the tech and there was supposedly some talk as to whether Sega should buy the tech, or to be one of the console manufactures, but they themselves did not see the 3DO perform until it launched in Japan a year after the US launch and iirc months after the Euro and Korean launch. This means that the jaguar would have been the only thing Sega reacted too.
Which would have Sega with a weaker console overall when the consumer base was getting more and more excited for 3D, and the N64 delay was always going to happen. The Jaguar fumbled out the gate, lied, made bad promises, there were droughts, people waiting for production to pick up for stores to carry games, 3DO $500 with one controller and no game, and $700 gamer pack outsold Jaguar near 2:1, and then at $400-$600 3L1. That's how you fuck up an advantage.
Atari had the price, the ads, the press, the bullshots, the tech demos, the events with the booths months before 3DO did, Sega acted as they did for a reason, but then they delayed the launch and had a test launch in 1993 instead, giving that year to 3DO, then they finally launched proper in 1994, with all the above problems and more despite having months more time to prepare. I mean Atari was estimated to sell 500k in the first few months in 1993, all the analysis and experts all ran for the hills and vanished by the 1994 nationwide launch, that whole console was a disaster. but it could have recovered but like Sega, Atari decided to chase the competitors in special effects, texture mapping, and other technical categories the had the advantage in which resulted in a lot of money losses which mean that Atari could not produce enough Jaguars for demand (yes there was demand) and could not produce enough games to meet demand, which is why Alien Vs. Predators massive success in selling out what it was producing was pointless because there wasn't enough money to mass produce the game or the console meaning that Atari basically SCREWED THEMSELVES from being able to take advantage of a popular game to increase console adoption because they couldn't produce either. They actually LOCKED themselves to failure with their mistakes it was an amazing thing to witness.
It was a bit better than the SNES because you could tilt with the scaling and there was some though limited verticality. But like 2 games ever really did that.
Biggest issue is that FMV only worked for Genesis owners or console only owners who weren't keeping track of gaming tech up front, that died when other platforms put out better graphics and video, and actually used the space for non-fmv game improvement, where as most non-fmv Sega CD games were like those lazy Amiga developers that moved from Amiga 500 to CD and just added a CD audio OST and a slightly higher color palette and called it a day.
That's a bold claim but I think that's a bit of a stretch.
I think you may have tagged me incorrectly, because you say you disagree but then don't really show any disagreement unless Im missing something you were addressing.
yeah but they dealt with that relatively quickly though it would help if they could have his $300 a bit earlier. Even then, with Sony and Saturn, they both, mostly Sony were basically running their early dats off shared 3Do games, and some 3DO games actually ran better than the other two, some which were curiosities such as Star Fighter. So 3Do still had press there, they needed to be $50 below PSX when it came out though, or at least with two free games. They did do both later, and it did pick up sales, but then they had to cut again after PSX had it's fairly quick first price cut, and they bleed themselves to death financially, which got them to can the M2.
It's certain that Crash 3 and R4Type4 couldn't be done on the Saturn since both used some creative tricks and shortcuts of the PS1 environment to pull off what they did.
It's the same reason you wouldn't be able to see Saturn VC2 on PS1. However, the difference is that unlike VC2, Crash 3 and R4Type4 push a higher graphical fidelity out the PS1 than VC2 does on SAT.
I was under the impression is was Panasonic/Matsushita (the guys who brought the M2 tech) that pulled the plug on the M2 because they didn't feel confident in taking the fight to Sony...i.e they got cold feet..?3DO would just take PSX's place, and the 3DO/Panasonic/Goldstar/Sanyo combo would just use a similar strategy as the PSX, with the M2 being the equal to the PS2, 2 or 3 years early. Sony basically just took the 3DO company strategy with 5x the funding and 5x the marketing muscle. The third party first approach, the open access to the system, ease of license, ease of production, slow build of first party with early stuff being exclusive third-party partnerships, etc.
Saturn would be in a worse position because they wouldn't have Sony to react to, Sega wouldn't know about the 3DO performance until it launched in Japan from all evidence that's out there, they only knew about Jaguar and then Sony. Sega knew of the 3DO company and the tech and there was supposedly some talk as to whether Sega should buy the tech, or to be one of the console manufactures, but they themselves did not see the 3DO perform until it launched in Japan a year after the US launch and iirc months after the Euro and Korean launch. This means that the jaguar would have been the only thing Sega reacted too.
Which would have Sega with a weaker console overall when the consumer base was getting more and more excited for 3D, and the N64 delay was always going to happen. The Jaguar fumbled out the gate, lied, made bad promises, there were droughts, people waiting for production to pick up for stores to carry games, 3DO $500 with one controller and no game, and $700 gamer pack outsold Jaguar near 2:1, and then at $400-$600 3L1. That's how you fuck up an advantage.
Atari had the price, the ads, the press, the bullshots, the tech demos, the events with the booths months before 3DO did, Sega acted as they did for a reason, but then they delayed the launch and had a test launch in 1993 instead, giving that year to 3DO, then they finally launched proper in 1994, with all the above problems and more despite having months more time to prepare. I mean Atari was estimated to sell 500k in the first few months in 1993, all the analysis and experts all ran for the hills and vanished by the 1994 nationwide launch, that whole console was a disaster. but it could have recovered but like Sega, Atari decided to chase the competitors in special effects, texture mapping, and other technical categories the had the advantage in which resulted in a lot of money losses which mean that Atari could not produce enough Jaguars for demand (yes there was demand) and could not produce enough games to meet demand, which is why Alien Vs. Predators massive success in selling out what it was producing was pointless because there wasn't enough money to mass produce the game or the console meaning that Atari basically SCREWED THEMSELVES from being able to take advantage of a popular game to increase console adoption because they couldn't produce either. They actually LOCKED themselves to failure with their mistakes it was an amazing thing to witness.
It was a bit better than the SNES because you could tilt with the scaling and there was some though limited verticality. But like 2 games ever really did that.
Biggest issue is that FMV only worked for Genesis owners or console only owners who weren't keeping track of gaming tech up front, that died when other platforms put out better graphics and video, and actually used the space for non-fmv game improvement, where as most non-fmv Sega CD games were like those lazy Amiga developers that moved from Amiga 500 to CD and just added a CD audio OST and a slightly higher color palette and called it a day.
That's a bold claim but I think that's a bit of a stretch.
I think you may have tagged me incorrectly, because you say you disagree but then don't really show any disagreement unless Im missing something you were addressing.
yeah but they dealt with that relatively quickly though it would help if they could have his $300 a bit earlier. Even then, with Sony and Saturn, they both, mostly Sony were basically running their early dats off shared 3Do games, and some 3DO games actually ran better than the other two, some which were curiosities such as Star Fighter. So 3Do still had press there, they needed to be $50 below PSX when it came out though, or at least with two free games. They did do both later, and it did pick up sales, but then they had to cut again after PSX had it's fairly quick first price cut, and they bleed themselves to death financially, which got them to can the M2.
It's certain that Crash 3 and R4Type4 couldn't be done on the Saturn since both used some creative tricks and shortcuts of the PS1 environment to pull off what they did.
It's the same reason you wouldn't be able to see Saturn VC2 on PS1. However, the difference is that unlike VC2, Crash 3 and R4Type4 push a higher graphical fidelity out the PS1 than VC2 does on SAT.
By the looks of it, Sega had no idea what they were doing. A classic case of a R&D heavy company with no focus. Considering how much gaming tech Sega churned out from home consoles and add-ons to state of the art arcade games, they had the tech skills and gadgetry. COmpared to Sony (PS1) and Nintendo (SNES and handhelds), Sega was all over the place in home electronics even making that Pico fisher price kind of toy. They basically shotgunned anything gaming related hoping that would suffocate Sony and Nintendo by sheer quantity of product.....Yeah when I think about it and looking back, it really was all about the disastrous launch of the Saturn in the USA.
1. The high price
2. Releasing a bunch of poor looking 3D games, making it look like a much weaker console than the Playstation.
3. Horrible marketing.
4. Pissing off retailers with the "surprise" launch.
I mean, it was arguably the worst launch of any major console in history, perhaps tied by only the XBone launch.
The hardware design was also inherently flawed and wasn't great in 3D. Which always puzzled me since Sega were masters of 3D in the arcades, but somehow that expertise failed to translate over to the home side. Maybe this was another sign that Sega was a dysfunctional company.
But I think Sega could have tried to "hide" the Saturn's deficiencies by not focusing so much on 3D games on the Saturn, at least in the beginning.
But in the end, every aspect of how Sega of America handled the Saturn...was a disaster. There was no recovering from that.
People keep saying that the Sega CD and 32X is what doomed Sega, but the Sega CD actually sold well enough, I mean compared to what the Turbografx CD sold...the Sega CD should be considered a resounding success.
And even the 32X wasn't the huge failure people say it is. Sure, it's a stopgap add on with barely any decent games, but I don't think Sega lost money on the 32X, in fact I think it sold much more than people expected. It was marketed to help the Genesis compete with the more advanced SNES games like Donkey Kong Country, not with the Playstation.
This ill-thought out statements are incredibly dumb. If You think Corpse Killer resembles Mortal Kombat you're a nut. The fact you had to dig to try and dimiss Wing Commander is one thing, but pretty much all the other games on the list are more FMV than wing commander, from Swat to Phantasmagoria.If these are FMV games, Mortal Kombat and FF VII are "FMV" games too...
I notice they are just the oldest games that have been ported to multiple systems and people brought them to show off their new PC-CD Rom drives capabilities.alabtrosMyster has already called you out for fluffing up the list with a game that used FMV sequences. You clearly don't know what you are talking about with FMV games and just verbosely make stuff up and pass it off as fact.
They were a hot fad for devices with CD Drives and were easy to post to everything just to fill up the disc space. They are a mere unloved footnote in gaming but I'd still expect Dragons lair to be ported again to future systems past the Switch and PS4.
R4Type4 and Crash 3 were pretty notably past what the peak of the Saturn could do in real-time. Many shared games also post 1996 were also starting to form an increasing gap as well.Except that this situation dis not exist. Not to the extent your are implying. Both consoles were very capable and could run the same games during the same period. So nothing has been demonstrated about this in the end.
The race in the 3D space hurt Namco and Sega and arguably helped the arcades decline because they were becoming to expensive across even the Btier models not just the top tier, some of which with problems or bad support, rotation constantly changing, and gamers were not coming in the drives expected, this also led to operators jumping out and telling them both the piss off. When you saw at many malls, fairs, parks, etc that had arcade machines what were the popular machines that were out and many people were paying hard coin for, it wasn't usually these Namco and Sega games, for every Jurassic park there was a Crusin, Sanfrancisco Rush, Marvel Vs. Capcom, Wrestlemania, Blitz, and even Namco and Sega stuff like Outrun, and Pacman.I think Midway's time table is a good example of where Namco and Sega would have been without outside help. Had No one seen Ridge Racer/Daytona and the PlayStation and Saturn launched in mid 1994 as System 32-comparable machines with a load of cool games with huge rotated sprites and some solid (if unspectacular ports) of those Model 1 games, we'd have all been happy i think. If Crusin' USA, Daytona and Ridge Racer had turned up and shown us the future a few months later, I don't think we'd have felt hard done by as that's how the industry had worked up until this point.
I'm not sure it works so well when you look from an arcade perspective, mind you. Having worked so hard to displace Namco as lords of the 3d space, it would have been weird to just rest on their laurels and risk Namco coming out with something game changing (just imaging if Daytona had appeared in 1993 as a slightly overclocked/improved Model 1 game with flat polys etc and Ridge Racer was the same!) not to mention that Sega's Model 2/3 games were the basis for a number of their mid size theme park attractions too (I know we treat Sega World/Joypolis as a sort of amusing side show these days, but in the mid 90s it was definitely a much larger part of the equation)
The Xbox One launch was fantastic. Long-term issues wouldn't show until months later. Almost all the pre-launch controversy was already over when the console launched. Same as PS4, sold 1 million in 24 hrs, both of which were records then.Yeah when I think about it and looking back, it really was all about the disastrous launch of the Saturn in the USA.
1. The high price
2. Releasing a bunch of poor looking 3D games, making it look like a much weaker console than the Playstation.
3. Horrible marketing.
4. Pissing off retailers with the "surprise" launch.
I mean, it was arguably the worst launch of any major console in history, perhaps tied by only the XBone launch.
The hardware design was also inherently flawed and wasn't great in 3D. Which always puzzled me since Sega were masters of 3D in the arcades, but somehow that expertise failed to translate over to the home side. Maybe this was another sign that Sega was a dysfunctional company.
But I think Sega could have tried to "hide" the Saturn's deficiencies by not focusing so much on 3D games on the Saturn, at least in the beginning.
But in the end, every aspect of how Sega of America handled the Saturn...was a disaster. There was no recovering from that.
People keep saying that the Sega CD and 32X is what doomed Sega, but the Sega CD actually sold well enough, I mean compared to what the Turbografx CD sold...the Sega CD should be considered a resounding success.
And even the 32X wasn't the huge failure people say it is. Sure, it's a stopgap add on with barely any decent games, but I don't think Sega lost money on the 32X, in fact I think it sold much more than people expected. It was marketed to help the Genesis compete with the more advanced SNES games like Donkey Kong Country, not with the Playstation.
The first hit was 3DO dropping out, which meant that they would be responsible for everything, and that already gave them cold feet. Sony's relations with third parties definitely put Panasonic in unique position because it pushed a time table on Panasonic to release the system which has already been delayed twice already. Without 3DO, Panasonic would have to manually get support for the console, competing with Sony, and keep in mind 3DO sold it's hardware division to Samsung in 1997, you already had your Bandicoots, Tomb Raiders, Parappas, and other hit games out, Playstation was picking up heavily in multiple countries, so at best Panasonic would have to get support, get marketing, talk with retail, and be responsible for the entire console and have it ready within no later than the end of the year by holiday season that they ended up pulling out in.I was under the impression is was Panasonic/Matsushita (the guys who brought the M2 tech) that pulled the plug on the M2 because they didn't feel confident in taking the fight to Sony...i.e they got cold feet..?