The Sum of Zero
Member
Episode 9, holy shit
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Shōgun - Official Trailer | Hiroyuki Sanada, Cosmo Jarvis, Anna Sawai | FX
- Thread starter ManaByte
- Start date
Dr.Morris79
Gold Member
End of Episode 9
If the hotty is hurt or killed, we riot!
Episode 10 will be a tough pill to swallow when it ends knowing most other shows are tripe.
If the hotty is hurt or killed, we riot!
Episode 10 will be a tough pill to swallow when it ends knowing most other shows are tripe.
Newuserdontflame
Neo Member
Does anyone have the transcript for what Anjin says after offering to second her .. I cried.
The Sum of Zero
Member
Talking about what he says after he says "I will do it."?
Hell is no place I haven't already known. Let it from your mind.
lifa-cobex
Member
squeakywheel
Member
Who is the hotty?End of Episode 9
If the hotty is hurt or killed, we riot!
Episode 10 will be a tough pill to swallow when it ends knowing most other shows are tripe.
Dr.Morris79
Gold Member
Who would you think?
Newuserdontflame
Neo Member
I appreciate you.
Tieno
Member
Just saw episode 9. Every episode I say and think this to myself, but my god, this show is so beautiful.
I can't quite explain it, but the way this show ebs and flows, the cadence of it, is so calming and pulls you in, it's quite something.
Every scene and frame you feel the love from everyone who made this show.
I can't quite explain it, but the way this show ebs and flows, the cadence of it, is so calming and pulls you in, it's quite something.
Every scene and frame you feel the love from everyone who made this show.
Mariko is such a beautiful character
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Tieno
Member
Saw the final very satisfied. Sad to see the show come to an end.
I'm quite satisfied the show final centered around Mariko's actions and death and didn't want to 'ejuculate' all over the audience with some huge battle just because that's what they think the audience wants... it's not what this series is about. Toronaga a great leader prepared to do horrible shit further his goal, sheesh.
Lukaku's First Touch
Member
There is not going to be a season 2? I hope so as its amazing, ep 10 was great!!
John Marston
GAF's very own treasure goblin
Yabushige: "Find a husband for my wife. Make sure he's not an idiot". 
Dr.Morris79
Gold Member
March Climber
Member
I am reading on certain sites that there will be no season 2 and the book also ended here. This is one of those moments where I would really want Hulu to have a ‘behind the episode’ like HBO.
If that doesn’t happen, my hope is that a youtuber will breakdown this show and the book/previous show into an hour-long explanation on the ending and what we were supposed to learn from it.
I understand the general themes of
…But I can’t shake the feeling that this was a ‘book 1 of 2’ situation and no one really knows the harsh truth about that except for the writer.
If that doesn’t happen, my hope is that a youtuber will breakdown this show and the book/previous show into an hour-long explanation on the ending and what we were supposed to learn from it.
I understand the general themes of
winning a conflict with as little death as possible(peaceful option) and Blackthorne finally coming to terms with his experience in Japan, changing as a person, his integration into their customs, and accepting his fate.
…But I can’t shake the feeling that this was a ‘book 1 of 2’ situation and no one really knows the harsh truth about that except for the writer.
Tieno
Member
There's an official podcast on disneyplus and podcasts platforms, I'm actually listening to the one on episode 10 atm. Also checkout Pete Peppers (https://www.youtube.com/@PetePeppers1), he usually takes a few days with his breakdowns but I prefer him.
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THE DUCK
voted poster of the decade by bots
I was kind of the opposite......I really wanted some clever outmanueuver battle scene, the show deserved it! Show was still 9.5/10 though, easily best show I have seen this year!
Cyberpunkd
Member
See, I wanted to do that as well, but then I noticed the audiobook version is 53 hours long.
Oberstein
Member
1x10
A much-awaited finale, and it didn't disappoint me. From the outset, the series has focused on the characters' relationship, the dialogue and the build-up between them.
The fact that we don't see the battle of Sekigahara is almost minor. Toranaga has completely overtaken his opponents, victory is assured, and there's almost no need to show more.
In fact, the only action scene that is merely exposition is in episode 3 in the forest. They have to escape, but a few katana blows don't change anything. In fact, that's the beauty of it: the rare action scenes move the story forward.
And it's all about maneuvering to stay one step ahead of your enemies. Incidentally, I might have liked an extra scene for Ochiba, who, even though we understand her purpose, seems to fade into the background, even though she was presented as the main antagonist. Except that, well, Toranaga isn't particularly sympathetic in this story. If I had one negative point to highlight, it would be the absence of color compared to the 1980 series. Okay, the costumes are much better, but I find that the overall palette is too often focused on gray/earth tones.
But that doesn't detract from the series' cinematographic craziness:
A much-awaited finale, and it didn't disappoint me. From the outset, the series has focused on the characters' relationship, the dialogue and the build-up between them.
The fact that we don't see the battle of Sekigahara is almost minor. Toranaga has completely overtaken his opponents, victory is assured, and there's almost no need to show more.
In fact, the only action scene that is merely exposition is in episode 3 in the forest. They have to escape, but a few katana blows don't change anything. In fact, that's the beauty of it: the rare action scenes move the story forward.
And it's all about maneuvering to stay one step ahead of your enemies. Incidentally, I might have liked an extra scene for Ochiba, who, even though we understand her purpose, seems to fade into the background, even though she was presented as the main antagonist. Except that, well, Toranaga isn't particularly sympathetic in this story. If I had one negative point to highlight, it would be the absence of color compared to the 1980 series. Okay, the costumes are much better, but I find that the overall palette is too often focused on gray/earth tones.
But that doesn't detract from the series' cinematographic craziness:
The Sum of Zero
Member
Loved the series so much, I went and got the book. Can't wait to read it.
Trilobit
Member
I kept thinking that if Disney Star Wars had anything close to this level of writing and characters I'd be so excited for their projects.
Tieno
Member
The more I think back on this show, the more I appreciate it. I've been watching some clips and can't get over how many good actors and characters there are in this show. All so well acted, scenes and dialogue so well crafted and with so much reverence and respect.
The scene of Buntaro's sacrifice. Buntaro a very flawed husband, but great samurai. Toranaga calls out his name and gives him a legendary sign of respect, he turns to his wife but he gets no emotion from her. What an amazing scene. Gives me goosebumps. That is drama.
The scene of Buntaro's sacrifice. Buntaro a very flawed husband, but great samurai. Toranaga calls out his name and gives him a legendary sign of respect, he turns to his wife but he gets no emotion from her. What an amazing scene. Gives me goosebumps. That is drama.
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Tieno
Member
lol, I see tiktok trend coming....
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ManaByte
Gold Member
It's a mini-series based on a book. No season 2.
Kurotri
Member
Goddamn it. I just finished it and I don't know what to think.
But I gotta say, Anna Sawai and Hiroyuki Sanada knocked it out of the park. Especially at the later episodes. Episode 8 and 9 are my absolute favourites and their performance in them were insanely good.
The ending felt very anti-climatic to me. Like insane amounts of build up and then it's just poof. Don't get me wrong it's not like I wanted the huge Sekigahara battle to actually be shown. It's clear that this was a very character driven drama and I appreciated that a lot, also it was obvious that budget was an issue tbh. But I wanted some sort of closure, some sort of "a few years later.." where we see certain characters and how they live. Instead what the ending basically gives you is "this and that is gonna happen...but well anyway fade to black". Felt like it stopped in the middle of it all, could've definitely used another episode.
Otherwise it was an exceptional show, but the ending felt very flat.
Otherwise it was an exceptional show, but the ending felt very flat.
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I don't remember the book well, as i read it some 30 years ago, but the show was ok-ish.
Just finished it a few hours ago and i must say it didn't really hit. They lost the nerve somewhere along the way, and as a drama story, left to be desired, especially in terms of narrative structure and focus.
Worth a watch, though definitelly overrated.
Just finished it a few hours ago and i must say it didn't really hit. They lost the nerve somewhere along the way, and as a drama story, left to be desired, especially in terms of narrative structure and focus.
Worth a watch, though definitelly overrated.
AeonGaidenRaiden
Member
I was really hoping for some epic-ness in the end, it kinda felt underwhelming. I get the message but I also didn't read the book so I had a completely different outcome in my head. The show started off strong but as it went further, it just mellowed out.
LordOfChaos
Member
That was beautiful.
I know many would have wanted to see the war on screen more, but it's based around real events and the war went on for 3 years after our characters story arcs here concluded. I was totally fine with how it was about our people, more so than the war.
Fuji is so sweet and pure, I'm glad she got some self determination and something close to contentment, even if she can't be "happy" after her child and husband's deaths.Also
I know many would have wanted to see the war on screen more, but it's based around real events and the war went on for 3 years after our characters story arcs here concluded. I was totally fine with how it was about our people, more so than the war.
Fuji is so sweet and pure, I'm glad she got some self determination and something close to contentment, even if she can't be "happy" after her child and husband's deaths.Also
It's a change from the book where she was allowed to kill herself but asked to make it look like an accident, so we won, she lived!
rubik's dude
Member
Ending was great, I also love the twist at the end where it's revealed that Torunaga is just as much of a villain as Ishido, if not more-so. He just happens to be more charismatic and deceitful about it. His advisor that committed seppuku, his son, Mariko, Blackthorne, they were all just a means to an end to achieve his ambition.
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LordOfChaos
Member
It's hard to call him a good person, but the real life character did end up founding Edo/Tokyo, and his Shogunate saw Japan unified and relatively peaceful for 300 years after. So he's almost someone you have to look at more of a force of nature than a person, he did kill many and got characters we liked killed, but does saving through the eventual peace hundreds of thousands of lives make up for that? Possibly into millions of lives over 300 years? It's beyond me to say, that sounds like a deep philosophical debate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edo_period
Toranaga = Tokugawa irl
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rubik's dude
Member
Oh for sure. It does raise an interesting point because his ambition is ultimately to bring an era of peace. But he still wants to be the one sitting on the seat of power (Shogun).
The closest comparison I can think of is in the fictional piece of work, Berserk. If you haven't read that, I won't go into too deep of spoilers. But the main villain does really villainy things. His goal though, at least as far as we the audience are aware, is to unite the world in an era of peace. But he is also unequivocally a bad person that uses people, much like how Torunaga uses people. And like Torunaga, he wants to be the one on the top.
It just raises the old question, "do the ends justify the means?"
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LordOfChaos
Member
Or maybe like the American Revolutionary War, it was ultimately for who controlled things, the leaders of it aren't viewed negatively in the States as it's how they got self determination, but it did kill tens of thousands of people for the location of control. So we watch Shogun and it's like, oh no, you killed Anna Sawai, you bastard! But I wonder if in Japan the reaction is more like yup, that's our guy, he did unify Japan and create a relatively peaceful 300 years where art and culture and lifespan could grow, really in no small way created the Japan we know today. The many outweigh the few etc. But then that's how every violent revolution justifies itself, many if not most to no good end.
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negator2vc
Member
But were they means to an end. Was Toranaga a villain?
His advisor and trusted friend was willing to give his life because he believe in him.
In the series (I haven't read the books but I plan to read them after seeing the series) it was suggested that Mariko was looking for atonement and she also believed in Toranaga.
Nothing in the series suggested that his son's actions were part of Toranaga plan.
The only person that he actually used was Blackthorne, a foreigner.
In the series (I haven't read the books but I plan to read them after seeing the series) it was suggested that Mariko was looking for atonement and she also believed in Toranaga.
Nothing in the series suggested that his son's actions were part of Toranaga plan.
The only person that he actually used was Blackthorne, a foreigner.
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The Cockatrice
I'm retarded?
One of the best shows ever. It was fucking awesome.
rubik's dude
Member
Text splurge incoming:
I mean, Torunaga straight up said, "Meh, I have other sons," in the last episode when someone mentioned what happened to Nagakado. He showed a cold, unfeeling callousness towards his own son's death. It's even established early on that he sees everyone as an "enemy." And like he said to Yabushige, he studies the winds of fate. He couldn't have possibly planned everything to happen the way that it did, but he did calculate every decision he made based on the probability of how people would act or react to a situation.
His son's death was an accident, but he used it to his advantage. In some capacity, he probably knew that his son would try, and fail, to kill his brother. Mariko wanted attonment through suicide, so he used that to his advantage as well. He used his advsior's devoutness to his advantage by getting him to commit sepukku, so his other guards would stop questioning him on if he had some ulterior plan. Whether the advisor knew his suicide was just a ploy, is another thing entirely.
The thing is, Yabushige and Ishido are made to look like villains through their scheming and backstabbing to achieve their ambitions. But Torunaga was the biggest schemer and backstabber of all, so he could become Shogun.
The difference between him and Ishido, is that Ishido wanted to become Shogun for the short-term power it would afford him during his lifetime. Torunaga wanted to become Shogun with the long-term goal of bringing an era of peace. One goal is obviously "better" than the other, but the means by which Torunaga would achieve it, and his overall mentality when it comes to using people, is very much rooted in "villain" territory.
But it's like LordOfChaos said, history fondly remembers the victors, because it's the victors who end up writing history.
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negator2vc
Member
There is a big difference between a villain and a maybe morally gray character especially since plenty of characters that you described have chosen to believe in Torunaga. Remember his advisor last words?
On the other hands how many of Ishido's "allies" were blackmailed or threatened in order to stay as his "allies"?
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yet_another_alt
Member
Well they can adapt the other books in the Asian saga but none of them really match up to Shogun.
Artoris
Gold Member
King Rat is not bad
rubik's dude
Member
Very true, their methods for getting people to do what they wanted were very different. But also, remember, in the last episode, Torunaga was killing people in the village for burning Blackthorne's ship, pretending as if he had nothing to do with it. But Torunaga revealed to Yabushige that he was the one who had the ship burned, because he wanted Blackthorne to stay. Torunaga killed people in the village entirely for show. That's a villain in my mind at least.
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