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[Aselith]

No, I mean, the incentivization of pre-order or pledges is to make the entire game better for all, not just backers. So what if backers who enabled a better final game due to pledging another $500k get an exclusive mission. It's madness to complain about that when the core experience is made better, made possible through their faith in a product sight unseen. I mean, if I'm gonna look at risk/reward here, and rewarding those of most importance to the game's very production, I could be pretty cynical and hard about it. Like...what the fuck did some non-backer do to earn that mission? Did they help organize with friends, putting it on their social networking site, tweet about it, talk about it on forums, or do anything to help get more people aware to help fund it during the pledge period? No, they didn't, so they don't get a single bonus fucking mission meant to reward people making the game happen, period. Guess what? I bet those non-backers can live just fine without it and if they can't, they should get off of their ass and pledge in instead of sleeping on it. This isn't a retailer exclusive, it's a thank you from the developer for reaching a goal to make a game better all around.

I want everyone who buys the game to have the entire experience with nothing held back for just me as a backer. It's selfish as hell to want something made just for you and it's fucked up of them to hold the mission out of the game to ransom a few more dollars. There other ways to drive pledges.

I don't want to be part of "Kickstarter Exlusive" game content.

Character skin? Fine. Story content? Fuck no.

 

[piratepwnsninja]

Some people think that the game is not "complete" without all possible content. Which is fine, I just don't agree. The irony is that a lot of the same people are perfectly fine with games that lock out content if you make Choice X instead of Choice Y.

Then you have the Hardcore, Crazy Completionists that think they have not beat Mass Effect 3 unless they see a two second cutscene at the end of the game.

I can't wait to see the amount of derpy outrage whenever one of these projects gets released and eventually starts having DLC people have to pay for, even if they backed it.

 

[Aselith]

I can't wait to see the amount of derpy outrage whenever one of these projects gets released and eventually starts having DLC people have to pay for, even if they backed it.

Starship Inception announced launch DLC and is paying badly for it.

 

[EviLore]

It's selfish as hell to want something made just for you

The whole kickstarter format with its pledge levels functions through selfishness, through feeling like a special contributor that has a hand in the game's existence and by getting cool shit that no one else gets.

I'm happy to support this game, but I surely wouldn't be supporting it and Wasteland 2 at the $250 level if not for the special swag.

 

[Dog Problems]

The whole kickstarter format with its pledge levels functions through selfishness, through feeling like a special contributor that has a hand in the game's existence and by getting cool shit that no one else gets.

I'm happy to support this game, but I surely wouldn't be supporting it and Wasteland 2 at the $250 level if not for the special swag.

Exactly. As much as I love Double Fine, for example, there's no way I would have given as much as I did if it weren't for the nice rewards. Those have been my entire motivation in supporting these projects as much as I have. If it weren't for that they'd all be getting the minimum amount required for the game.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

I want everyone who buys the game to have the entire experience with nothing held back for just me as a backer. It's selfish as hell to want something made just for you and it's fucked up of them to hold the mission out of the game to ransom a few more dollars. There other ways to drive pledges.

I don't want to be part of "Kickstarter Exlusive" game content.

Character skin? Fine. Story content? Fuck no.

Who the fuck is asking for this mission? The developer offered it themselves, clearly knowing that they could then spend the resources to do it after their previous commitments to enhancing the game with that extra pledging. I just don't see it how you're seeing it, but if you want to assume the developer would be ransoming backers for extra content, go right ahead. As for your selfless self on content, I'll just say it's a strange view to hold given that these are still things to be sold to inevitably generate profit so the developer can, perhaps, start self-funding and just continue to make stuff people want. If the developer wants to reward people with their product, that's their prerogative.

 

[Aselith]

The whole kickstarter format with its pledge levels functions through selfishness, through feeling like a special contributor that has a hand in the game's existence and by getting cool shit that no one else gets.

I'm happy to support this game, but I surely wouldn't be supporting it and Wasteland 2 at the $250 level if not for the special swag.

No doubt BUT it's with the understanding that everyone gets the game when it's done. The swag is extraneous stuff. The content is not. We're paying extra to get extra stuff not cutting a piece off the game just for us. Or at least I'm not going to do that.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

If that's the case, then the complainers should pledge to ensure their purchase of the complete experience.

You'd think, right?

Starship Inception announced launch DLC and is paying badly for it.

That's because the idea of Day One DLC if you have no competitor is a rather lame idea.

 

[Lonewolf_92]

Harebrained Schemes LLC 5 minutes ago

Hey everyone!

Thought-provoking conversation. We're impressed and inspired by the spirit of community expressed by many here. Please keep it going and "be excellent to one another". We're definitely listening!

HBS

Out of the comments section. Justinian Hobor says how I pretty much feel about it:

Justinian Hobor less than a minute ago

Would folks be offended if they spent $1.5m on content for everybody but then used the editor to make a single mission for folks who had backed the project via Kickstarter (or Paypal)? I may use the mission editor to make some runs, and, if I do, I may limit the runs I make to friends. This is more or less what they're doing...
If you’re offended by this, why are you not offended by Mike Mulvihill going to somebody's house and making some undoubtedly awesome missions for them which you'll never even know about?

Personally, I'd be fine if they wanted to release it to the general public at a later date, but I find getting wound up by this but being completely fine with the backers selecting the second city, which will effect everyone who plays the game, a little baffling.

 

[Aselith]

You'd think, right?



That's because the idea of Day One DLC if you have no competitor is a rather lame idea.

Also, exclusive content.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Also, exclusive content.

Well, that's why people are bitching about it, but it's not why, on a purely business level, it's a bad idea.

It's smart of them to pull it due to perception. But Day One DLC is mainly for different stores to offer incentives to buy from them.

I could see Day One DLC if they were selling on Steam as well as their own website. But not when they are trying to fund something.

I can even see them going "$35 gets you early-adopter access to our first DLC pack".

 

[~Kinggi~]

You know being a backer does warrant some type of reward. You are going out of your way to fund something that isnt yet created.

If you want the damn content then fund it. They arent saying "Well for 100$ you get this great new mission!!!"

All it requires is basic backing. Whole argument against this is dysfunctional at best.

 

[Aselith]

You know being a backer does warrant some type of reward. You are going out of your way to fund something that isnt yet created.

If you want the damn content then fund it. They arent saying "Well for 100$ you get this great new mission!!!"

All it requires is basic backing. Whole argument against this is dysfunctional at best.

Yes, it does. That's why we fet the swag.

 

[Lonewolf_92]

Yes, it does. That's why we fet the swag.

Which is what this is, it has no connections to the main storyline at all. It's like if I took the editor and made a mission and shared it with ~Kinggi~, HP_Wuvcraft, and Evilore. Only difference is that it's made by one of the guys behind the game.

 

[kmob]

It's probably worth mentioning again that backing a Kickstarter project is actually a risk - sure a calculated risk in this case given the people involved, but a risk never the less. It's not a pre-order. Therefore I have no problem with an in game reward for people (backers) prepared to take that risk. It's not like it's a multiplayer game where it will be come unbalanced with exclusive content.

Lastly, it's not exactly expensive to back at the $15 level if someone really wants the backer only mission

 

[Brimstone]

It's probably worth mentioning again that backing a Kickstarter project is actually a risk - sure a calculated risk in this case given the people involved, but a risk never the less. It's not a pre-order. Therefore I have no problem with an in game reward for people (backers) prepared to take that risk. It's not like it's a multiplayer game where it will be come unbalanced with exclusive content.

Lastly, it's not exactly expensive to back at the $15 level if someone really wants the backer only mission

They shifted from the fund rasing tactics of "love some Shadowrun swag and cool stuff" to "fear factor" economics. Fear shouldn't be an ally of a kickstarter project. The idea is to tap into peoples passion for a game and have fun with that. When you start injecting fear by saying those that don't pledge will never get extra levels it changes things.


If it went...

Those that pledged get free dlc extra levels and a chance to vote on future dlc content that is different. A person that didn't pledge to the kickstarter can still go out and buy the extra content.

 

[DTKT]

They shifted from the fund rasing tactics of "love some Shadowrun swag and cool stuff" to "fear factor" economics. Fear shouldn't be an ally of a kickstarter project. The idea is to tap into peoples passion for a game and have fun with that. When you start injecting fear by saying those that don't pledge will never get extra levels it changes things.


If it went...

Those that pledged get free dlc extra levels and a chance to vote on future dlc content that is different. A person that didn't pledge to the kickstarter can still go out and buy the extra content.

fear? fear?

Seriously?

 

[Kusagari]

I agree with that. They should make it DLC that anyone who didn't contribute to the kickstarter can buy for a small fee. It's a nice bonus for people who kickstarted, but flat out limiting it from everyone is just wrong.

 

[Aselith]

They shifted from the fund rasing tactics of "love some Shadowrun swag and cool stuff" to "fear factor" economics. Fear shouldn't be an ally of a kickstarter project. The idea is to tap into peoples passion for a game and have fun with that. When you start injecting fear by saying those that don't pledge will never get extra levels it changes things.


If it went...

Those that pledged get free dlc extra levels and a chance to vote on future dlc content that is different. A person that didn't pledge to the kickstarter can still go out and buy the extra content.

Absolutely. Right now we're in the period where people are feeling out what's possible to use as incentive and what is acceptable to the audience. Making actual game levels or whatever part of the rewards should not be acceptable to people! Those custom character skins are nice but just a vanity thing and when they let people make their own scenarios and stuff that's just adding to what other people get so that's cool too. But when they start taking away something that could be given to everyone with the game to give it to you, it starts to get into unacceptable territory.

The members of the community to set a clear line on this point so that Kickstarters in the future don't start wandering more and deeper into this territory. Stop it now and it won't be a problem.

Not Kickstarting should not be a punishment for people. It's a small thing that's being taken away here, I don't want to have to fight the fight when it's a big thing and the practice is more entrenched.

 

[Dice]

Sorry, but I just can't view it as taking something away from those who didn't help kickstart it.

 

[Zeliard]

Describing it as a "pre-order bonus" in the fashion we've seen this gen is off the mark. It isn't demarcated, withheld content targeted at helping various retail chains; it's a reward to people who are causing the game to exist at all in the final state it will come out as.

Without the amount of people funding, those who choose to wait would get either 1) nothing, if the funding doesn't meet its goal, or 2) an entirely different game, if the funding doesn't attain the budget it ultimately does (i.e. the second city @ a million, in this case).

This is an incentive targeted at getting more pledge money which will just make a better game, and that will benefit everyone in the long run, non-backers included. This particular mission Weisman is talking about also specifically exists to tie this game to the SNES/Genesis version, so by its nature it's more meaningful for the bigger Shadowrun fans, who are likely the ones backing it anyway.

With Wasteland 2, the $15 pledge gets you the game at a discount of what the ultimate price will be. It may end up coming out at something like 30 bucks, in which case non-backers have to pay double the backer minimum for the same game. And that's fair.

 

[Minsc]

They should simply announce the extra levels as DLC which will be priced at $1,000.00 after release for those who don't back it, then everyone would be happy and it'd give the people who haven't backed the project a large incentive to do so.

 

[Aselith]

Describing it as a "pre-order bonus" in the fashion we've seen this gen is off the mark. It isn't demarcated, withheld content targeted at helping various retail chains; it's a reward to people who are causing the game to exist at all in the final state it will come out as.

Without the amount of people funding, those who choose to wait would get either 1) nothing, if the funding doesn't meet its goal, or 2) an entirely different game, if the funding doesn't attain the budget it ultimately does (i.e. the second city @ a million, in this case).

This is an incentive targeted at getting more pledge money which will just make a better game, and that will benefit everyone in the long run, non-backers included. This particular mission Weisman is talking about also specifically exists to tie this game to the SNES/Genesis version, so by its nature it's more meaningful for the bigger Shadowrun fans, who are likely the ones backing it anyway.

With Wasteland 2, the $15 pledge gets you the game at a discount of what the ultimate price will be. It may end up coming out at something like 30 bucks, in which case non-backers have to pay double the backer minimum for the same game. And that's fair.

And equally meaningful to the people who love this game and then dig into the older games. How is getting the game for 50% off or whatever plus a bunch of swag not enough of an incentive that they have to leave out a mission?

This doesn't need to be done and I've cancelled my pledge. I'll be back in if they decide to add it to the game. I really hope they do, I'd very much like that boxed edition that I was originally set up for.

Sorry, but I just can't view it as taking something away from those who didn't help kickstart it.

Call it "taking away" or "giving to." Either way, the people who buy this game at full price later are not going to be getting that mission with their game.

 

[Dice]

lol white knighting it up in this bitch

 

[Rygar 8 Bit]

yay they hit the million mark come oooon two million

 

[Aselith]

lol white knighting it up in this bitch

White knighting implies that you talk a good game but just hope to get something in return. The only thing I want is for the content of the game to be in the game.

 

[Zeliard]

And equally meaningful to the people who love this game and then dig into the older games. How is getting the game for 50% off or whatever plus a bunch of swag not enough of an incentive that they have to leave out a mission?

This doesn't need to be done and I've cancelled my pledge. I'll be back in if they decide to add it to the game. I really hope they do, I'd very much like that boxed edition that I was originally set up for.

And that's in your right to do so. This may be all moot as they've gotten enough of a backlash that it seems likely they'll forgo the idea entirely; it would be somewhat surprising if they do stick with it.

But I really don't feel it's the doom-and-gloom picture some have painted it as. Nobody hates the various anti-consumer publisher strategies this gen more than I do, and I somewhat understand the consternation in light of that, but I don't really think this fits the bill.

 

[DTKT]

Did it just lose 2k?

:|

 

[Dice]

White knighting implies that you talk a good game but just hope to get something in return.

Nope.

Whatever. If you want to be so principled for non-backers' sake that you miss out, go ahead.

 

[Aselith]

And that's in your right to do so. This may be all moot as they've gotten enough of a backlash that it seems likely they'll forgo the idea entirely; it would be somewhat surprising if they do stick with it.

But I really don't feel it's the doom-and-gloom picture some have painted it as. Nobody hates the various anti-consumer publisher strategies this gen more than I do, and I somewhat understand the consternation in light of that, but I don't really think this fits the bill.

Yeah someone on Kickstarter let me know that the extra content isn't a done deal yet when I posted my comment so I'm back on the backer wagon until this is decided.

For what it's worth, I know they were trying to do a nice thing here. I don't hate them for it but I hate the practice. I hold absolutely no ill will if I back out and I know they'll reach the goal regardless which is great! (I still want that game!) But I'd rather pay more later and make as strong of a statement about this is I possibly can rather than let it happen.

May seem lame to some people but I really like what Kickstarter is doing and I don't want to hate it later because every game has a little bit taken out for backers (especially if I decide not to back! )

Nope.

Whatever. If you want to be so principled for non-backers' sake that you miss out, go ahead.

I was kind of hoping that they'd change their minds if enough people voice their outrage actually. I really, really want my nice boxed copy, believe me, but yes I'm 100% willing to miss out over this.

And on the white knighting thing, I assumed it was a reference to the common "maidens saved/maidens rewarded with sex" macro. If white knighting is meant to be literally defending anything then fucking right I was white knighting and you're lame as hel for trying to use that as some sort of insult.

 

[Brak]

Aselith, I think most people would ultimately agree with your overall argument, but you present it with such vitriol and paint it in such black and white terms that it's hard to take you seriously.

I think most people would like everyone to be able to play this extra content. This will likely end up being a timed exclusive, or a cheap dlc for non-backers. This just isn't that big of a deal.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

fear? fear?

Seriously?

EVERY DEV LIKES WHAT I LIKE.

 

[Aselith]

Aselith, I think most people would ultimately agree with your overall argument, but you present it with such vitriol and paint it in such black and white terms that it's hard to take you seriously.

I think most people would like everyone to be able to play this extra content. This will likely end up being a timed exclusive, or a cheap dlc for non-backers. This just isn't that big of a deal.

People get the stuff or they don't. If people agree with me, they should say "I agree people should get the mission but I don't feel like it's enough to...blah blah blah." That's fine but instead they're like, "Nah, I made this game happen so only I should get it." People are actually saying that in this thread. I'm not being an asshole about it any way, I don't think I've said anything that has an element of vitriol to it. I'm just saying if it's not available to people, I will not support the Kickstarter. People can feel free to do what they want but of course I'll respond if someone tells me that they should hold it back because people who don't Kickstart are freeloaders. That is a silly ass thing to say.

 

[Dice]

If white knighting is meant to be literally defending anything then fucking right I was white knighting and you're lame as hell for trying to use that as some sort of insult.

It's more about being super serious in defense of something you have no stake in just because of the principle of the matter or sometimes for no reason but to be a defender in self-righteousness. In this case, the issue is what kind of deal non-backers get. Arguing it so seriously came close, but it's another level to actually pull out entirely over the issue. However, slang was never meant to be explained in such depth, so congratulations on diffusing the comment by way of ignorance as to what it meant. I'm still stunned by the backlash on the whole. Everyone so serious...

 

[Aselith]

It's more about being super serious in defense of something you have no stake in just because of the principle of the matter or sometimes for no reason but to be a defender in self-righteousness. In this case, the issue is what kind of deal non-backers get. Arguing it so seriously came close, but it's another level to actually pull out entirely over the issue. However, slang was never meant to be explained in such depth, so congratulations on diffusing the comment by way of ignorance as to what it meant. I'm still stunned by the backlash on the whole. Everyone so serious...

My stake is the $125 dollars I'm spending on the game. I paid to make the game happen because I want to be able to play it but also want to be able to tell my friend, "Check this game out, it's really cool!" and not be talking about it the game I played minus one mission. It may not be an important part of the game in the end but I'd rather not cross that bridge.

And also I don't want to in future decide not to back a project I'm not sure about and then, when I buy it for full price later once I find out its quality, find out that oh they left out some of the game because you didn't back it. These high profile releases are going to be the example projects that developers looking to Kickstart will look at for a blueprint on how to raise money in the future. I don't want them to think that backer exclusive missions are the way to raise money.

 

[Rygar 8 Bit]

i dont see what the problem is its not a preorder bonus its a reward for backing the project same for those usb shadowrun dog tags no one will be able to buy those after the project is over its a reward

 

[Aselith]

i dont see what the problem is its not a preorder bonus its a reward for backing the project same for those usb shadowrun dog tags no one will be able to buy those after the project is over its a reward

Except the thing that the USB dogtags will contain is a version of the game...which they can buy. And the dogtags are a knick knack. The game should be complete, little swag items will not effect the game experience.

 

[HK-47]

Talk about overreacting. Rewarding people who actually funded the game versus most other extras which are just a way to squeeze money out of the consumer, often with stuff already on the disc, is a fine thing to do. Especially if its just one mission and they can always add it in later for everyone. Hell, even if it was exclusive, some dude would have leaked the data and a torrent for the extra mission would have gone up somewhere.

Seems like more like yelling at clouds than a principled stand to me.

 

[Vyse The Legend]

Did it just lose 2k?

:|

If that's true, wow. Some people love to be upset for absolutely no reason.

 

[Dice]

I can't comprehend how you think of it as taking something out from the game everyone else rather than a viable bonus for people who helped make it happen. It's not holy scripture, it's a mission in a game. Especially in these PnP-based RPGs, and even more especially in the ones with level editors, the big thing is making up stories. The characters in the game are just a handful in a massive universe with a long timeline where many adventures happen. There will be more than you'll ever be able to play. This is just one that the dev team made. Yeah, they have nice experience with making stuff nice, and it will be official, so to speak, but that doesn't mean near as much to this sort of world as it does to other kinds of franchises.

How about dropping your contribution to $15 and giving 85 people $1 to give to it so they don't miss out on the apparently-experience-altering mission.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

If that's the case, then the complainers should pledge to ensure their purchase of the complete experience.

You say as if it were so easy, I mean I can't pay in any way anything that it's on the internet, but I still want to support this in any way that I can.

You seem to take as a granted that everyone that follows the Kickstarter projects can pledge to the project when they cannot.

 

[ElectricThunder]

It comes down to old thinking----many folk want this to be yet another, hopefully growing, return to form in terms of the classic "the game is the game, maybe an expansion or so is an expansion or so----sequel and repeat from there". For a good many people, there's simply a marked difference of weight in terms of physical goodies and that which is tied to the game itself, with the lines not so commonly blurring. Each of the big kickstarters of late are going about things somewhat differently, each making both good and suboptimal moves accordingly given this is largely untrodden ground.

Honestly at this point, they'd perhaps do well to just retro photoshop up a shop screen or so of either/both the Genesis and SNES versions with itemized reward goals with Weisman's face for the shopkeep and just step back from this exclusive business not unlike the multiplayer from before.

The people in the comments are generally being civil about it though, which is nice to see. I kinda feel for the Italian advocate guy that's been at it for the last several updates though---probably because I'd still like to see them also try for a Japanese localization as well to complete the circle.

 

[Monroeski]

I see no problem at all with offering me a little bit of extra content as a reward for funding a game. Keep in mind that we're all putting money into this before there are any screenshots, story info, trailers, etc.

I'm not going to complain if I fund a restaurant and they give me some free meals, and I'm not going to complain if I fund a video game and I get some extra content. This isn't a regular preorder.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

I see no problem at all with offering me a little bit of extra content as a reward for funding a game. Keep in mind that we're all putting money into this before there are any screenshots, story info, trailers, etc.

I'm not going to complain if I fund a restaurant and they give me some free meals, and I'm not going to complain if I fund a video game and I get some extra content. This isn't a regular preorder.

Wrong analogy.

You got extra meals, okay. But what if you got some extra exotic ingredients that no one else can taste but you? Would the costumer still buy the meals at that restaurant if he knew he was missing extra ingredients that make the meals better?

It isn't a reglar preorder indeed, because what the developers are saying so far is this: "This is extra playable content will only be available for people who back us up, and there's no way to obtain it otherwise".

I think this is a problem of miscommunication. The devs should at least say it's gonna be DLC or something, but it should be in the game anyway in my opinion.

 

[Monroeski]

Wrong analogy.

You got extra meals, okay. But what if you got some extra exotic ingredients that no one else can taste but you? Would the costumer still buy the meals at that restaurant if he knew he was missing extra ingredients that make the meals better?

Would you stop visiting a restaurant if you found out that one of the guys that fronted the money for the business gets a slightly different pizza than you do? I certainly wouldn't.

...and if I saw somebody else eating something I didn't see on the menu and when I asked him how he got it he said "I provided startup money for this place so I get some extra perks" I would not care at all.

 

[Violet_0]

hm, this kickstarter project moves quite a bit slower than the others. I don't think that they'll break the $2 million mark.

 

[Kusagari]

hm, this kickstarter project moves quite a bit slower than the others. I don't think that they'll break the $2 million mark.

It's the only video game kickstarter to break, even approach, a million besides Wasteland and Double Fine Adventure. Not exactly slow .

 

[Dice]

It's the only video game kickstarter to break, even approach, a million besides Wasteland and Double Fine Adventure. Not exactly slow .

It also has a shorter timespan overall and is still going 50k a day.

 

[Rygar 8 Bit]

hm, this kickstarter project moves quite a bit slower than the others. I don't think that they'll break the $2 million mark.

its also had less time then the other ones

 

[Deleted member 80556]

Would you stop visiting a restaurant if you found out that one of the guys that fronted the money for the business gets a slightly different pizza than you do? I certainly wouldn't.

...and if I saw somebody else eating something I didn't see on the menu and when I asked him how he got it he said "I provided startup money for this place so I get some extra perks" I would not care at all.

Ah, dammit, why do we use analogies? Lets just discuss it upfront dammit.

I would care a bit though. Personally it's just a bit tasteless this extra mission thing.