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Sherlock Series 3 |OT| - THE Source for Fiction’s Cheekbone Fetish

F

Famassu

Member
Mariolee said:
I just wish we could see more of the consequences to Sherlock's action. Instead we get, "Oh Sherlock murdered somebody? Screw all the potentially interesting ethical dilemmas and crazy set ups that could arise from this. Let's just bring Moriarty back!"

Which was the first thought that came to my mind.

Putting Sherlock into prison would be one hell of an entertaining thing to watch, but for some reason it's thrown aside as "Sherlock being in prison wouldn't be good for anybody."
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Bringing Moriarty back (or Sherlock back to solve the Moriarty is alive?!?! mystery) doesn't mean they can't have those ethical dilemmas. Sherlock could very well have a shitstorm waiting for him by the press once people see he's back solving crimes.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Auron_Kale said:
Hmm? Wiggins is one of the actual Baker Street Irregulars in canon, where he's the leader of the group. Though a junkie here, the BSI are just homeless kids that Sherlock uses to gather information and he pays them.
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Yup, he's the only one allowed inside the house.
 
F

Five

Banned
Is there a reason why Mycroft is always called the smarter brother, but the minute Moriarty shows up he needs his stupid brother back? I don't doubt that Mycroft has above-average intelligence, but he generally doesn't come across as more clever than Sherlock to me.
 
A

AkuMifune

Banned
abe_bly said:
Is there a reason why Mycroft is always called the smarter brother, but the minute Moriarty shows up he needs his stupid brother back? I don't doubt that Mycroft has above-average intelligence, but he generally doesn't come across as more clever than Sherlock to me.
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Yeah, but doesn't like to get his hands dirty. He hasn't even had time to hang out in the Diogenes Club.
 
S

Slowdive

Banned
abe_bly said:
Is there a reason why Mycroft is always called the smarter brother, but the minute Moriarty shows up he needs his stupid brother back? I don't doubt that Mycroft has above-average intelligence, but he generally doesn't come across as more clever than Sherlock to me.
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He's just lazy/doesn't like field work.
 
U

User 100115

Banned
abe_bly said:
Is there a reason why Mycroft is always called the smarter brother, but the minute Moriarty shows up he needs his stupid brother back? I don't doubt that Mycroft has above-average intelligence, but he generally doesn't come across as more clever than Sherlock to me.
Click to expand...

I see it as Mycroft as being smarter than Sherlock in different ways. He will never, ever match Sherlock's street sense, for example. Mycroft couldn't go up against Moriarty because he doesn't have the passion to. Sherlock has a bit of himself that IS Moriarty (why else was that part of him chained up with Moriarty's face in the mind palace).

Mycroft could no more go up against Moriarty than Sherlock handle the Queen of England. Though they are both intelligent enough for either job, it's in different ways.
 
V

VanquishUK

Member
googleplex said:
I have three theories.


1. It was Mycroft's doing and it was a way to save his little brother.

2. It was Sherlock fooling everyone into thinking that Moriarty was still alive.

3. The Moriarty we saw in the first two season was not the "True" Moriarty. He was just a brilliant but psychopathic stand in for the real Moriarty.
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I don't see number 1 and 2 as being possible since you actually see Moriarty in the clip they play on the screens just before the bobbing mouth GIF.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
Here's my problem with Magnussen: It's hard for me to believe that Mycroft couldn't take him out. I suppose it depends on whether he'd want to, since he doesn't hate him like Sherlock does, but Sherlock did say that he had Mycroft under his thumb, so it's a bit blurry in that case.

However, here's the thing: Magnussen power is knowledge, and while you can't make him forget his knowledge, you can make him incapable of using it. So, with all of the power Mycroft has and his perfect willingness to falsely incriminate people as he sees fit (as he threatened to do so to Anderson and that woman in that very episode), it seems to me that the solution to Magnussen is very simple: Storm his home under false pretenses. If he has something like Appledore, he gets the evidence to put him away. If he doesn't, you can put him away with more false evidence.

So, while the battle with sherlock is pretty okay, it's hard for me to believe there is anything he can do to intimidate Mycroft. You can't beat someone at a game in which they make all the rules.
 
A

Akahige

Member
Watched the 3rd episode last night, I actually liked it alot. Moffat did a good job with the script, though the storyline did feel very rushed but I guess that was to be expected since the previous episodes didn't have a storyline that led to the finale.
 
I

Irminsul

Member
Veelk said:
However, here's the thing: Magnussen power is knowledge, and while you can't make him forget his knowledge, you can make him incapable of using it. So, with all of the power Mycroft has and his perfect willingness to falsely incriminate people as he sees fit (as he threatened to do so to Anderson and that woman in that very episode), it seems to me that the solution to Magnussen is very simple: Storm his home under false pretenses. If he has something like Appledore, he gets the evidence to put him away. If he doesn't, you can put him away with more false evidence.

So, while the battle with sherlock is pretty okay, it's hard for me to believe there is anything he can do to intimidate Mycroft. You can't beat someone at a game in which they make all the rules.
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Wouldn't the same apply to Irene Adler, pretty much?

At least I remembered they tried to counter your reasoning with something about "But there's information on my device which can hurt someone when destroyed!" which doesn't really make sense if Ms. Adler simply wanted to use it as insurance prior to selling it.
 
P

peanutbutterlatte

Member
Hope we get Andrew Scott back in some form, and completely unhinged. The "Moriarty" chained up in Sherlock's consciousness is fantastic.

"You're gonna love being dead Sherlock, no one bothers you"
 
The Elite

The Elite

BOSS
abe_bly said:
Is there a reason why Mycroft is always called the smarter brother, but the minute Moriarty shows up he needs his stupid brother back? I don't doubt that Mycroft has above-average intelligence, but he generally doesn't come across as more clever than Sherlock to me.
Click to expand...

He gets Sherlock to do all the dirty work.

That's what makes him the smarter brother.
 
W

War Peaceman

You're a big guy.
Veelk said:
Here's my problem with Magnussen: It's hard for me to believe that Mycroft couldn't take him out. I suppose it depends on whether he'd want to, since he doesn't hate him like Sherlock does, but Sherlock did say that he had Mycroft under his thumb, so it's a bit blurry in that case.

However, here's the thing: Magnussen power is knowledge, and while you can't make him forget his knowledge, you can make him incapable of using it. So, with all of the power Mycroft has and his perfect willingness to falsely incriminate people as he sees fit (as he threatened to do so to Anderson and that woman in that very episode), it seems to me that the solution to Magnussen is very simple: Storm his home under false pretenses. If he has something like Appledore, he gets the evidence to put him away. If he doesn't, you can put him away with more false evidence.

So, while the battle with sherlock is pretty okay, it's hard for me to believe there is anything he can do to intimidate Mycroft. You can't beat someone at a game in which they make all the rules.
Click to expand...

He didn't want to. He said it himself: Magnusson is sometimes helpful, sometimes not. A necessary evil. Also if the British Government gets a reputation for killing off influential, powerful people, that can be very, very bad.
 
Z

Zhengi

Member
abe_bly said:
Is there a reason why Mycroft is always called the smarter brother, but the minute Moriarty shows up he needs his stupid brother back? I don't doubt that Mycroft has above-average intelligence, but he generally doesn't come across as more clever than Sherlock to me.
Click to expand...

In the books, Mycroft actually has better powers of deduction than Sherlock.
 
Randy Lanzarote

Randy Lanzarote

Member
abe_bly said:
Is there a reason why Mycroft is always called the smarter brother, but the minute Moriarty shows up he needs his stupid brother back? I don't doubt that Mycroft has above-average intelligence, but he generally doesn't come across as more clever than Sherlock to me.
Click to expand...

I think this is something that comes across a lot better in the books. By Sherlock's own admission, Mycroft is the smarter brother, but he is also incredibly lazy and happy to sit behind his desk all day long. It probably helps he is described as being a somewhat rotund gentleman.

The one thing the RDJ movies have over the tv series is Steven Fry as Mycroft. To me that is a much better fit for the character. Mark Gaitiss plays him as too snide/smarmy for my liking.
 
U

User 100115

Banned
Found a great reaction gif on tumblr. Need to remake it myself so it's not so washed out and black and white.

eqxN7nr.gif
 
A

Auron_Kale

Member
sionyboy said:
The one thing the RDJ movies have over the tv series is Steven Fry as Mycroft. To me that is a much better fit for the character. Mark Gaitiss plays him as too snide/smarmy for my liking.
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I love Fry but I do really enjoy Gatiss' interpretation of Mycroft. He has that cold aloofness for someone whom you could easily tell is at home within working for the British government. During TEH when they're playing Operation, you can see that he does care for his little brother a lot, but at the same time, you can also tell that he puts up with a lot of shit from said brother. Even still, Mycroft represents the intelligence aspect within Sherlock's Mind Palace, so you know that in the end, both Holmes brothers do love one another...really deep down.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
vcassano1 said:
He didn't want to. He said it himself: Magnusson is sometimes helpful, sometimes not. A necessary evil. Also if the British Government gets a reputation for killing off influential, powerful people, that can be very, very bad.
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Irminsul said:
Wouldn't the same apply to Irene Adler, pretty much?

At least I remembered they tried to counter your reasoning with something about "But there's information on my device which can hurt someone when destroyed!" which doesn't really make sense if Ms. Adler simply wanted to use it as insurance prior to selling it.
Click to expand...

That's because taking out Irene would have had consequences. It's not merely that others having that information would hurt them, it's that them not having it (even if no one else did) would hurt them. So Mycroft had no choice but to deal with Irene to get the password lest the information be lost forever. I should rewatch the episode to be sure though, but I remember they needed to get that information or they suffer.

Magnussen, however, there is no consequences to his demise as far as we can see. He had no evidence and, being dead, he can't spread the information that would hurt them to the appropriate parties. That's the difference, they absolutely needed the information Irene had, they don't with Magnussen. They just need him to shut up. And the best argument Mycroft could come up with is "He doesn't hurt us badly enough to warrant retaliation." It didn't seem implied that Magnussen does anything for them other than not make too much of a ruckus. Mycroft called him a necessary evil, but necessary to what? They should have explained that more, I think. As it stands, he's just a ridiculously powerful piece of shit. He goes out of his way to be a piece of shit and his only defense is "If you don't let me be a piece of shit to you, I'll tell X about Y". Well, the obvious reply to that is "Well, what if you can't tell anyone about anything?" To this, he has no response. Not just to Sherlock, but to Mary as well. When Mary had the gun on him, all he could think to do is appeal to her moral sensibilities of all things. He literally has no contingency plan if someone just has enough of his bullshit and takes him out. An the short glimpse of the post-magnussen world we have thus far, there doesn't seem to be any fall out. When Mycroft had that meeting about Sherlock's fate, the core of their argument for Sherlock's punishment was driven by the fact that he did something immoral ("Regrettably, my brother is a murderer.") than that they have cost the government itself anything, and Mycroft doesn't mention any bad thing happening. There was a theory that he kept Moriarty under cover and that's why Jim came back only after Magnussen was killed, but it's not like they knew about that.

So that's the thing about Magnussen. He is very scary and intimidating, sure, but he's not very intelligent outside of his memorization ability. He doesn't seem to realize that 'knowing' isn't enough, he has to convey that information to somewhere for it to be useful and that he is, in fact, mortal. So, he doesn't make any "In the event of my death" plans. And I can accept that. He has a massive hubris and he's in such a position of power that normal people can't hurt him. But mycroft? Just detain the guy under whatever pretense you want to make up. From there, whatever information he has, he won't be able to convey anywhere. Find the appledore vaults or don't, and the next step is equally simple. The only possibility I see that is presented to us is that...well, Mycroft made a tremendous miscalculation. He overestimated Magnussens abilities by far. But I just don't see Mycroft (atleast in this TV show) being the kind of guy that won't verify his hypothesis'. So even if he he didn't know, it's beyond me how he wouldn't find out by using a spy or whatever.
 
P

Permanently A

Junior Member
Veelk said:
That's because taking out Irene would have had consequences. It's not merely that others having that information would hurt them, it's that them not having it (even if no one else did) would hurt them. So Mycroft had no choice but to deal with Irene to get the password lest the information be lost forever. I should rewatch the episode to be sure though, but I remember they needed to get that information or they suffer.

Magnussen, however, there is no consequences to his demise as far as we can see. He had no evidence and, being dead, he can't spread the information that would hurt them to the appropriate parties. That's the difference, they absolutely needed the information Irene had, they don't with Magnussen. They just need him to shut up. And the best argument Mycroft could come up with is "He doesn't hurt us badly enough to warrant retaliation." It didn't seem implied that Magnussen does anything for them other than not make too much of a ruckus. Mycroft called him a necessary evil, but necessary to what? They should have explained that more, I think. As it stands, he's just a ridiculously powerful piece of shit. He goes out of his way to be a piece of shit and his only defense is "If you don't let me be a piece of shit to you, I'll tell X about Y". Well, the obvious reply to that is "Well, what if you can't tell anyone about anything?" To this, he has no response. Not just to Sherlock, but to Mary as well. When Mary had the gun on him, all he could think to do is appeal to her moral sensibilities of all things. He literally has no contingency plan if someone just has enough of his bullshit and takes him out. An the short glimpse of the post-magnussen world we have thus far, there doesn't seem to be any fall out. When Mycroft had that meeting about Sherlock's fate, the core of their argument for Sherlock's punishment was driven by the fact that he did something immoral ("Regrettably, my brother is a murderer.") than that they have cost the government itself anything, and Mycroft doesn't mention any bad thing happening. There was a theory that he kept Moriarty under cover and that's why Jim came back only after Magnussen was killed, but it's not like they knew about that.

So that's the thing about Magnussen. He is very scary and intimidating, sure, but he's not very intelligent outside of his memorization ability. He doesn't seem to realize that 'knowing' isn't enough, he has to convey that information to somewhere for it to be useful and that he is, in fact, mortal. So, he doesn't make any "In the event of my death" plans. And I can accept that. He has a massive hubris and he's in such a position of power that normal people can't hurt him. But mycroft? Just detain the guy under whatever pretense you want to make up. From there, whatever information he has, he won't be able to convey anywhere. Find the appledore vaults or don't, and the next step is equally simple. The only possibility I see that is presented to us is that...well, Mycroft made a tremendous miscalculation. He overestimated Magnussens abilities by far. But I just don't see Mycroft (atleast in this TV show) being the kind of guy that won't verify his hypothesis'. So even if he he didn't know, it's beyond me how he wouldn't find out by using a spy or whatever.
Click to expand...

Its possible that Magnussen has a failsafe in case of his death, and that it will come back to bite Sherlock in S4, though it does seem like Moriarty 2: Electric Boogaloo so perhaps not.
 
E

Exterminieren

Banned
abe_bly said:
Is there a reason why Mycroft is always called the smarter brother, but the minute Moriarty shows up he needs his stupid brother back? I don't doubt that Mycroft has above-average intelligence, but he generally doesn't come across as more clever than Sherlock to me.
Click to expand...

"Moriarty's back? Sodding hell, that'll be a ballache. Better get Sherlock back for that one."
 
V

Veelk

Banned
tmujir955 said:
Its possible that Magnussen has a failsafe in case of his death, and that it will come back to bite Sherlock in S4, though it does seem like Moriarty 2: Electric Boogaloo so perhaps not.
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Possible, but not indicated anywhere. It just doesn't seem to be in his character. He had no contingency plan for Mary (despite being aware of her) and he had no contingency for Sherlock just because of his belief in his invincibility. The most likely theory I've heard is that he held Moriarty's leash, but again, that's not a contingency plan or a fall out that Mycroft was aware of.
 
M

Mariolee

Member
Auron_Kale said:
I was pretty content with Many Happy Returns and Time of the Doctor this past Christmas so hey, bring it on Beeb.
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Yup, I'm pretty hyped.

MasterBalls said:
What if the Capaldi Christmas special... and the Sherlock Christmas special... are... the same... show.
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sherlock-202-scare.jpg


Auron_Kale said:
...So if that happens, can John Riddell and Greg Lestrade exist in the same space for Wholockians to have their minds melt?

It'd be hilarious.
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Well, they already have Peter Capaldi existing as three different people in the Who-niverse, so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch.
 
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