zer0blivion
Member
When has the PLO bombed the UN? Source?
Shifa hospital and Al Shati refugee camp attacked by IDF
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When has the PLO bombed the UN? Source?
DXB-KNIGHT
Member
Could you suggest what Arab leaders can do in the face of a barbaric western supported nuclear country that was claimed based on a fictional story?
Baki
Member
You do realise Israel is the aggressor in this conflict. And it didn't start 2 weeks ago.
The US? The US!
The United States of America are funding israels war and pressure it's allies in supporting them too. Germany sold Israel a nuclear sub not so long ago. Isn't that a nice weapon for defense?
Its also worth mentioning that the USA is blocking UN resolulitions to give palestine any help as much as it can.
zer0blivion
Member
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
I'll be the first in line to poop on the IDF, but I think I missed the part in which they only needed purely defensive meteriel. Specially considering their history in the region.
The world can't even get the Olympics and FIFA to become even somewhat respectable. All they'll do is say some angry words while aiding a proxy war
Hopefully a peaceful and longlasting solution happens for the innocent civilians...but it sure as hell won't happen with Israel vs Hamas
Yaphett Kotto
Member
We need a country to be bold enough to call that shit out and do something regardless of what we say. Its painted right there in front of everyone what the US is doing.
zer0blivion
Member
There's an Amnesty International campaign:
U.S. government: Stop arming Israel
https://campaigns.amnesty.org/campaigns/us-stop-arming-israel
And if you're in NY, there's a civil disobedience today. Info here: http://normanfinkelstein.com/
A nuclear sub isn't a battleship or a tank. When you use one of these you usually arm it with appropriate weapons. And think thst this thing costed a lot of money, they coulsve bought other weaponory. And germany don't sell to anyone. We had a hard time selling the arabs tanks.
Anyway my point was that Israel is backed by the USA and its allies and people shouldn't wonder why they don't help in the war
Shameless.
It's an attack/guided missile sub as opposed to a ballistic missile sub, it launches conventional cruise missiles and nuclear cruise missiles. It doesn't launch intercontinental missiles.
Hardly a defensive weapon, for all we know it's currently launching cruise missiles at Gaza, although with the air/sea and land superiority that's just wasting money (although given cruise missiles are essentially free to Israeli thanks to the US taxpayer then they may still used them.
Yaphett Kotto
Member
I signed the campaign, but we still need a government body to step in and break mold. I think once someone starts the snowball, it will eventually grow.
Just so you all know, U.S isn't the only country that supply Israel with weapons or contracts for weapons. Saying, U.S stop arming Israel is silly.
Good luck, bro. Any and all countries that actually have power do not care enough to put themselves in it. China? No. Russia? No. France? Maybe, but it don't have the power that the other 2 do. UK? No.
To be honest both sides are wrong in this, so I don't bother trying to call out either one. Saying U.S don't care about Palestinians isn't correct either, since U.S was willing to take on hundreds of thousands of Palestinians as citizens so Israel and Palestine can negotiate and Palestinians get it's country. U.S just isn't willing to choose Palestine over Israel, which makes sense.
zer0blivion
Member
Yeah, and those are just the ones regarding Israel. They essentially signed the East Timorese death warrant with another veto, and sold the weapons to the Indonesians to do it.
zer0blivion
Member
The US is the only one giving them $3.1 billion a year of free shit though aren't they. The only reason the Israeli's had to buy German is that the US don't make non nuclear subs any more, and they aren't allowed to sell nuclear subs for export. While the US do have modernised plans for electric-diesel subs and Congress has occasionally allowed US yards to bid for work they've always pulled out in the end.
StickSoldier
Member
So can anyone fill me in or at least lead me in the direction of why Israel is currently attacking Gaza? Didn't they start all this because of the teenagers that got killed? I thought they came out and said it wasn't them not too long ago... So this is about Hamas now, whom never actually killed the boys to begin with right? What's the underlying reason for this? Is it to take Gaza? I'm sorry, I'm very uninformed on this matter.
MisterFalcon
Member
Plenty of countries use the same type of submarines the Israeli's bought. Their Dolphin class version has four larger launch tubes for (nuclear) cruise missiles but it's not a nuclear submarine like the American ones.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_209_submarine
zer0blivion
Member
They are ethnically cleansing the Gaza ghetto.
Edit: I mean mowing the grass.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDP7ZSJlikA
Sure it's allies sell weapons, but the United States blow free money in so they even can buy this weaponry.
smh. I always thought of secret agents and CIA missions, but this whole stuff seem even more coldblooded.
GTP_Daverytimes
Member
Power is authority, that's why if you step back a minute you can understand the Russians and their viewpoint of both Nato and the US. The United States is not just a bully but one of the biggest hypocrites the world has seen. But it gets away with all that shit because it is the pre-eminent economy in the world and it has every one that can oppose it by the balls. Brazil has so far shown the most balls in this conflict, hopefully the African continent and South-Southeast Asia also rises up. Europe is not going to disobey its master, China is too tied up economically to do anything significant, Russia is well Russia.
zer0blivion
Member
It really is.
No, it isn't.
Not sure how this change what I said. If you want to call out U.S for arming Israel, then all should be called out. Otherwise it is up to that country's discretion if they want to sale arms or give military aide. Of course sanctions aren't possible though at this current time.
I am guessing this is your opinion? It helps to realize that countries are not "people". You can keep calling out hypocrisy, but that is just what stupid politicians do and want people to do to legitimize their views.
There is no "hypocrisy" when it comes to nations. They do what they want and feel is in their best interest.
zer0blivion
Member
Why are you picking on Israel?
I think that's a bingo.
I make it simpler for you:
The USA gifts Israel money. Free money. For weapons.
Weaponcontracts and sales are bad, no doubt but we're calling out the USA for essentially financing the war on palestine. Plus we know western Europe is a puppet show, they're supporting Israel because the US does. Just look at the recent poll if the security council should send watchers down there.
Couls somebody please ppst the picture of the vote? I tells stories by itself. (on the phone right now)
zer0blivion
Member
The difference is that Israel have to buy weapons from other countries. Hand over their own cashy money. The US gives them $3.1 billion of free military hardware tokens which can only be handed in* to US arms manufacturers.
Sure other countries can sell Israeli weapons but that's on ad hoc basis, and fine criticise that, I certainly do, but $3.1 billion of US taxpayers money gets spent on arming Israel every year (plus another $250 million for missile defense) which puts the US on a whole completely different strata. Given the IDF's annual spend is around $14 billion, the US pays for 22% of Israel's military might in any given year.
*well 75% of it, they're free to spend 25% of wherever they want although when they're not buying German subs they typically do spend most of it either internally or with the US. 95% of Israel arms imports are from the US.
StickSoldier
Member
Oh... wow... How do they get away with this? It's sickening that they believe they have the right to do this to people, especially to children. Is it because of the US?
Edit: Okay it's because of the US. Fucking disgusting that we allow this. How does Israel have so much power over this country?
Maninthemirror
Banned
AP: Gaza officials say more than 100 people dead in Israeli shelling on Tuesday alone
I think that makes it the third time during this conflict that there were more than 100 casualties in 24 hours.
zer0blivion
Member
Israel has never officially agreed to any borders and they operate with impunity because they are backed by the US. Both countries (US and Israel) have incredibly powerful propaganda machines to manipulate public opinion. I know this sounds tin-foil hattish, but it's true. Check out Manufacturing Consent https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzufDdQ6uKg From story selection to framing debates in a certain way, the media forms public opinion. Mostly to agree with what your government is doing.
Edit: Israel has so much influence in the US mainly because of AIPAC and fundamentalist christian lobbies.
GTP_Daverytimes
Member
You are right that nations do whats in their best interest, be that as it may the response from both the EU and the US to the situations in Ukraine and Israel-Gaza is in such stark contrast that hypocrisy is the only word to describe it.
Maninthemirror
Banned
I am convinced now the us media is not pro Israel i think as per their corporate data more Americans want to hear the Israeli side of things and so they show that side of the argument more. Its like the Iraq war, more than 200,000 people died but everyone cared
About how the soldiers were doing not how many Iraqi lives were being lost. For most americans the livelihood of Israelis is more important than the life itself of even one palestinian civilian. This is enhanced by the radicalized muslims who allow this view to be furthered and the anti muslim sentiment created otherwise by the few Jewish, Christian and extreme atheist groups which hold a lot
Vocal power. In the end its about money.
About how the soldiers were doing not how many Iraqi lives were being lost. For most americans the livelihood of Israelis is more important than the life itself of even one palestinian civilian. This is enhanced by the radicalized muslims who allow this view to be furthered and the anti muslim sentiment created otherwise by the few Jewish, Christian and extreme atheist groups which hold a lot
Vocal power. In the end its about money.
There are about to be a bunch of bans in this thread. I understand that this is a contentious, serious, deeply felt issue for many people. That is no excuse to call fellow posters scumbags, human scum, etc. we have rules here, and if you can't follow them, you will go elsewhere.
If you are incapable of discussing this issue, or any issue, without resorting to this sort of behavior, then you shouldn't be discussing it.
If you are incapable of discussing this issue, or any issue, without resorting to this sort of behavior, then you shouldn't be discussing it.
zer0blivion
Member
It very much is pro-Israeli. Rula Jabreal, MSNBC contributor, spoke up about it and had her future appearances cancelled. To their credit, they brought her back on to talk about the same issue but they credited her as a "Palestinian Journalist" rather than MSNBC Contributor. Their excuse was that they can't get anyone from Hamas on the phone because they're terrorists.
Essentially when they went in so hard and fast on blaming and punishing Hamas Hamas started fighting back. By the time they admitted they were wrong it was already far out of control.
Is it in the US's best interest though? How much money and how many lives have gone down the drain due to terrorism motivated by US interference in the Middle East?
No, what I am saying is why try to single out one country when others also arm Israel, especially knowing politics will not allow that?
I see no difference in it. Whether someone gives a person the money to pay for weapons or someone sells a weapon to a person, still has the same outcome.
All I am saying is they shouldn't expect U.S listen to their critiques. It is like telling Russia to stop arming the rebels in Ukraine. While we all agree that this should stop, it is not in either country's best interest and other countries do it too will be their argument.
Yeah, but as I said, that doesn't matter. What matters is a country's ability to make or have others agree with their sentiment as much as possible even if they come out looking hypocritical.
In a thread about innocent children dying, you are trying to justify their slaughter by calling them terrorist. Any proof?
It's not really in the US best interests given the US's ever increasing deficit and reliance on cheap chinese debt, but for domestic political reasons it continues. There was an argument that Israel provided a bulwark against the Soviet sphere of interest in the med side of the middle east but that's not really a concern though at the moment and hasn't been for nearly 20 years. Thanks to the Israeli lobbies strength the US don't even get the sort of influence on Israeli policy you'd expect (Israel often takes very contrary positions to the US and publicly whinges when the US pulls them up on it) If the US stopped funding Israel tomorrow there would little effect on the US's sphere of influence and only really Israel and some US arms concerns would notice.
And there's a vast vast difference to selling arms to someone and paying for those arms off your own back. One is an unsavoury business transactionwhich is understandable, the other gives you far more accountability and power. However the internal politics of US is so broken the spheres of influence are reversed, the US provides the money and Israel has the influence.
Someone gives you the money to buy something and somebody willing sell you something. Two different things. Your mother who gives you pocket money and the man who sells sweets are not the same.
Ok, bans processed. Let me cover a couple of other issues:
Quit posting stupid cartoons designed to poison the well against anyone who doesn't agree with your point vigorously enough. If you really think this is a serious issue, and not a way to grand stand on a forum, you'll treat it as a serious issue. That means sarcasm and jokes are probably not your best bet.
The same goes for the Israeli bingo. Stop posting it. It's designed, from the ground up, to stop conversation.
If the only way you can think of to argue against someone, is to shut down discussion in favor of ridicule, save me the time and just quit posting. You guys are either going to have a civil discussion on the issue, or you're going to discuss it elsewhere.
Also, it is GAF policy that if you're going to post gory pictures of the dead and injured, that you do so behind a NSFW tag, rather than openly in the thread.
Finally, this thread is about a particular bombing incident in a wider Israeli/Palestinan conflict. It is not about the Sudan, it is not about Boko Haram, it is not about Jordan, it is not about Syria. If you want to discuss some other atrocity, feel free to start a thread, but don't derail this one.
Quit posting stupid cartoons designed to poison the well against anyone who doesn't agree with your point vigorously enough. If you really think this is a serious issue, and not a way to grand stand on a forum, you'll treat it as a serious issue. That means sarcasm and jokes are probably not your best bet.
The same goes for the Israeli bingo. Stop posting it. It's designed, from the ground up, to stop conversation.
If the only way you can think of to argue against someone, is to shut down discussion in favor of ridicule, save me the time and just quit posting. You guys are either going to have a civil discussion on the issue, or you're going to discuss it elsewhere.
Also, it is GAF policy that if you're going to post gory pictures of the dead and injured, that you do so behind a NSFW tag, rather than openly in the thread.
Finally, this thread is about a particular bombing incident in a wider Israeli/Palestinan conflict. It is not about the Sudan, it is not about Boko Haram, it is not about Jordan, it is not about Syria. If you want to discuss some other atrocity, feel free to start a thread, but don't derail this one.
m_shortpants
Member
Because the Palestinian Authority and Hamas recently agreed to a unity government. This was a move to legitimacy for Hamas, and a step towards vying for statehood. Israel and Netanyuhu obviously don't want Palestine to have a state, so they looked for any pretext to start this offensive. The 3 teenagers were the perfect pretext. It was blamed on Hamas which has now been confirmed to have been a lie. Israel started demolishing homes in Gaza, arresting 400+ people, and even killing about 20 people in response to the kidnapped teens, again, that Hamas had nothing to do with. Basically they were prodding and prodding to get a response. Hamas fired a couple of rockets in retaliation and boom, Israel got their pretext to start this offensive, actively derailing any peace talks in the process.
They do this kind of shit so often it's obvious.
DXB-KNIGHT
Member
Hamas needs to give up their organization for a more unified Palestinian government to cement the 1st step toward having a Palestinian state which will result in better Peace talks between Isarel and the Pslestinians.
RustyNails
Member
I am so depressed. I cant function normally. Those poor people are so helpless.
RustyNails
Member
Of course, of which the Unity Government was the first step. Palestinians realize this. Netanyahu disagreed.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
They were forming a unity government right as the Isreali aggression started in response to a unity government.
Funny enough that unified government is essentially the real reason Israel is bombing the shit out of them at the moment.
Hamas was completely marginalised, they'd fallen out of favour with Iran, Syria and Egypt who fund them so they finally went into a unity government with Fatah and a agreed to a bunch of conditions for peace which in the 1990's Israel would have happily taken. Even if you think their offer was wildly optimistic it was a decent place to start negotiations. Israel took exception to that and we're now where we are, exactly where Israel wants, Hamas marginalised again and no real problematic partner for peace they'd actually have to possibly deal with.
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