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[kmag]

I'm sure if Hamas had half the military Israel did, they would be targeting military targets only. Unless you can provide evidence, I reject your claim that Hamas uses human shields, and there is evidence of Israeli soldiers actually using human shields.

Who gives a fuck about the civilians? I do, and human rights groups do, the zionists don't.

By Israels own logic and their rules of engagement in Gaza where a 'terrorists' family is fair game as are his neighbours there are very few civilian targets in Israel where almost every household (outside of ultra orthodox Jewish households) stations a military reservist . By Israeli logic as applied to Hamas members those households and their families would be valid targets.

Now obviously I don't think that's valid or in any way acceptable but that's essentially the extension of their own logic.

 

[Aaron]

Oh i see. The rest of the point stands. Every time they do this rocket-lobbing shit, Israel comes back and bites the shit out of them, and it's the civilians who suffer the most. If their primary concern was for civilians, then provoking a nation that's proven over and over again a willingness to disproportionately blow shit up may not be a good fucking plan.

Israel has been doing this before Hamas or the rocket attacks were a thing. They have repeatedly been the ones to start these conflicts. The rocket attacks have never been anything but a weak attempt at retaliation, but it's all that Hamas can really do. They don't have extensive US support giving them access to artillery strikes. If you want to know how effect doing nothing is, look at the West Bank. There under a different government, Palestinians have been slowly losing their land and their lives. So no matter what response Hamas chooses, their civilians will die.

The IDF has been killing people in Gaza at their leisure during the supposed cease fire. Then comes the kidnapping, which they accused Hamas of with no proof, and rolled this into an excuse to bomb the shit out of Gaza. The rocket attacks didn't really enter into it. If they stopped completely, the IDF isn't shy about finding another excuse to launch these attacks.

 

[Chichikov]

What is "the world" supposed to do? And does it apply to every injustice?

Sanctions.
And wherever the international community can affect positive change, it should, but you don't have a one size fits all solution.

 

[zer0blivion]

By Israels own logic and their rules of engagement in Gaza where a 'terrorists' family is fair game as are his neighbours there are very few civilian targets in Israel where almost every household (outside of ultra orthodox Jewish households) stations a military reservist . By Israeli logic as applied to Hamas members those households and their families would be valid targets.

Now obviously I don't think that's valid or in any way acceptable but that's essentially the extension of their own logic.

Right, and that's the problem. Israel believes they can operate with impunity because by their own definition, everything is a target.

 

[Dopus]

Palestine's situation is a result of a massive screw up post WW2 after Hitler's genocide.
A bunch of countries gave Israel a piece of land that really wasn't theirs anymore, so if anyone is to blame, it's the UN.

I agree that the IDF are getting to the point where we can semantically call it terrorism, but I'm still not letting Hamas off the hook for their actions whether you deem it minor compared to what the IDF are doing.

I'm sorry, but that's such a cop-out. You cannot say that the Israeli policy today and for the last few decades is justified because of the mess caused as the start of the establishment of Israel. It was a disaster, but Israel has no interest whatsoever with rectifying this situation or coming to some sort of agreement. That much is clear. Sorry buddy, but you're clearly trying to deflect here and it's not going to work.

And nobody here is letting Hamas off the hook. Firing rockets into civilian populations with the intent to kill is absolutely disgusting, but the root of the problem lies with Israel's unwillingness to negotiate something attainable. I see a number of posters here on Gaf supporting Israel who for all intents and purposes are engaging in terrorism and have been for decades upon decades, and this is rather despicable. Whether you agree with to wording or not, the end result is exactly the same. Innocent men, women and children are dying.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

I'm seeing lots of talking points similar to those in that booklet The Independent reported on earlier.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...hat-helps-israelis-to-hide-facts-9630765.html

 

[Shining Sunshine]

I'm resisting commenting on your first sentence because I won't let emotions get the best of me. Of course you blame the UN, they're the ones trying to stop human rights violations while you are content to if not defend them, try to excuse them.

What is this egregious action that you can't let off the hook for, given that you just admitted IDF are terrorists?

The first sentence is basic history. It's in the books. It's as I said.
Actually, it started before WW2 with the British Mandate, but more land was given to Israel after the WW2 Holocaust. The UN admitted Israel into the UN council and a giant shitstorm went on until today.

War has been going on between the Arab nations and Israel since the British Mandate.

And I don't condone any acts of terrorism, whether its Hamas or anyone else.

Cant you also blame Israel for wanting more and having holy wars with Palestine over land and then oppressing their people putting up blockades, counting food calories and putting them on a "diet"

Of course Israel is at fault for exactly what you said. Heck, it's the fault of a lot of nations, particularly Britain and United States.

Still, I'm not going to condone any violent acts, Hamas or IDF.

 

[kmag]

Oh i see. The rest of the point stands. Every time they do this rocket-lobbing shit, Israel comes back and bites the shit out of them, and it's the civilians who suffer the most. If their primary concern was for civilians, then provoking a nation that's proven over and over again a willingness to disproportionately blow shit up may not be a good fucking plan.

And Israel doesn't give a shit about anyone but its own citizenry...but guess what? It really doesn't have to. They'll continue to run their oppressive apartheid state and shit like these rocket attacks continues to provide a distraction from that issue and an excuse for them fighting and laying down all of these draconian laws and policies.

And when they don't do the rocket lobbing shit, the world ignores them as land continues to get stolen and their people go on an Israeli led diet. Israel has conditioned the Palestinians to attack, the only positive changes in their captivity have resulted from the violence. In the 10 years before the first Intifada, the conflict was extremely quiet and the Palestinians got absolutely nothing except more and more settlements.

What typically happens is that the IDF provokes attacks with their usual round of mass imprisonments, crackdown on the blockade or a random shooting or 'targetted assassination" (you know the ones where they destroy an apartment building to kill some mid level Hamas member), the provocation normally coincides with the Israeli political calendar but in this case it's a reaction to the unity government. Hamas lob their rockets, the IDF go on one of their "defensive" rampages until the pathetic pressure from the rest of the world gets enough to make them stop, there's then some forced truce where Israel promises to go easy for a bit and the Palestinian's lives improve for a wee bit until the next escalation.

When it's quiet, Israel just goes about stealing more West Bank land.

 

[benjipwns]

Sanctions.

On the United States? They have a history of using middlemen to deal weapons.

 

[zer0blivion]

The first sentence is basic history. It's in the books. It's as I said.
Actually, it started before WW2 with the British Mandate, but more land was given to Israel after the WW2 Holocaust. The UN admitted Israel into the UN council and a giant shitstorm went on until today.

War has been going on between the Arab nations and Israel since the British Mandate.

And I don't condone any acts of terrorism, whether its Hamas or anyone else.

You didn't answer my question. What did Hamas do that you can't "let them off the hook"?

 

[kmag]

What is "the world" supposed to do? And does it apply to every injustice?

The reason this conflict engenders more outrage than most is that we're (the Western world and Japan) are essentially paying for it and funding it. The US obviously more so than the rest of the world as it also funds the IDF to an almost obscene amount but the EU and the US essentially pay for the Palestinian's imprisonment.

Israel is a moderately prosperous country (around 25th on the list by GDP per capita) but it could not afford the military might it has without the $3.1 billion the US gives it per year in military aid. That provides nearly 22% of IDF expenditure and almost all of it's acquisition power.

 

[Baron Doggystyle von Woof]

Why is the USA not stepping in? These are war crimes of the first order!

 

[benjipwns]

The reason this conflict engenders more outrage than most is that we're essentially paying for it. The US obviously more so than the rest of the world as it also funds the IDF to an almost obscene amount but the EU and the US essentially pay for the Palestinian's imprisonment.

That would be interesting to know since I have no idea.

What conflicts are being funded the most by the United States? Is this one really the top or does it just seem like it?

Spoiler

Also, there's the religious angle to this one.

 

[Shining Sunshine]

Because your shitty comments are saying things like "Israel has a reason to target all Palestinians" in response to a hospital and a refugee camp getting attacked. I don't think you understand just how serious it is to target civilian centers in a war and then lie about it afterwards like a child.

Holy shit, do you think all violent Palestinians are part of Hamas? You just linked to an article where there was zero connection between the kids and Hamas and then you said "Well of course Hamas would lie about it." That's not how evidence works.

I should have worded it in a more tactful way, but that line of thinking is IDF's, not mine.

Evidence shows a bunch of kids had bombs and were headed for Israel. Hamas or not, they were kids out to kill. There doesn't even need to be any connection. IDF are going to use that fact to target children regardless.

And my other link has video evidence of Hamas training children, so I'll just leave that point there.

I'm sorry, but that's such a cop-out. You cannot say that the Israeli policy today and for the last few decades is justified because of the mess caused as the start of the establishment of Israel. It was a disaster, but Israel has no interest whatsoever with rectifying this situation or coming to some sort of agreement. That much is clear. Sorry buddy, but you're clearly trying to deflect here and it's not going to work.

And nobody here is letting Hamas off the hook. Firing rockets into civilian populations with the intent to kill is absolutely disgusting, but the root of the problem lies with Israel's unwillingness to negotiate something attainable. I see a number of posters here on Gaf supporting Israel who for all intents and purposes are engaging in terrorism and have been for decades upon decades, and this is rather despicable. Whether you agree with to wording or not, the end result is exactly the same. Innocent men, women and children are dying.

Okay, as long as no one is letting Hamas off the hook. That's all I'm pointing out.

And the establishment of Israel is the problem. When Britain and US left Israel their entire stockpile of military vehicles and weapons after WW2, it completely escalated the war in that region and made Israel into a super power "for the sake of defense".

Israel is at fault for their actions, but Britain, US, and probably some more members of the UN made this war happen.

You didn't answer my question. What did Hamas do that you can't "let them off the hook"?

Kill civilians?

 

[thefit]

And when they don't do the rocket lobbing shit, the world ignores them as land continues to get stolen and their people go on an Israeli led diet. Israel has conditioned the Palestinians to attack, the only positive changes in their captivity have resulted from the violence. In the 10 years before the first Intifada, the conflict was extremely quiet and the Palestinians got absolutely nothing except more and more settlements.

What typically happens is that the IDF provokes attacks with their usual round of mass imprisonments, crackdown on the blockade or a random shooting or 'targetted assassination" (you know the ones where they destroy an apartment building to kill some mid level Hamas member), the provocation normally coincides with the Israeli political calendar but in this case it's a reaction to the unity government. Hamas lob their rockets, the IDF go on one of their "defensive" rampages until the pathetic pressure from the rest of the world gets enough to make them stop, there's then some forced truce where Israel promises to go easy for a bit and the Palestinian's lives improve for a wee bit until the next escalation.

When it's quiet, Israel just goes about stealing more West Bank land.

They have a tired old playbook they have been using for years and like the right wing extremists here they are so out of touch and they don't see that social medial ,like in US politics, has really played a giant role in helping people see through their total bullshit.

Them blaming hamas rockets on precise strikes is so fucking luaghable, they are unguided tubes with explosions that with dumb luck manage to hit something and let alone actually explode on impact.

 

[Cygnus]

That first panel is poignant.

But another forum told me

 

[Aaron]

Kill civilians?

So has every government that has ever existed. Would probably help to get a sense of proportion.

 

[benjipwns]

In 2010:

Afghanistan	$6,800,308,625 	46.84%
Israel	$2,799,544,121 	19.28%
Egypt	$1,301,900,000 	8.97%
Iraq	$1,005,989,000 	6.93%
Pakistan	$913,899,800 	6.30%
Jordan	$303,772,000 	2.09%
Somalia	$204,000,000 	1.41%
Colombia	$185,844,000 	1.28%
Russia	$126,769,695 	0.87%
Sudan	$104,933,705 	0.72%
Mexico	$95,988,000 	0.66%
Poland	$55,632,194 	0.38%
Uganda	$36,301,000 	0.25%
Philippines	$35,553,000 	0.24%
Congo (Kinshasa)	$29,950,000 	0.21%

Great return there, across the board.

 

[zer0blivion]

Kill civilians?

Hamas has killed 3 in this conflict, Israel has killed over 1000. Now who's the terrorist?

 

[Scooter]

What is "the world" supposed to do? And does it apply to every injustice?

The can stop fucking protecting apartheid nations for one. People focus on the No from the US at the UN but don't on the other scumbags that were absent from the vote. I'm ashamed for my government for being such pussies.

 

[Shining Sunshine]

So has every government that has ever existed. Would probably help to get a sense of proportion.

I don't know how far back Hamas has been firing rockets, but I do know about a Hamas rocket weapon developed in 2001 that was used to fire rockets into Israel.

Looks like 15 killed by the rockets from a quick google of this Qassam weapon. Definitely pales in comparison to what the IDF are doing, but it's still a bad thing.

 

[kmag]

That would be interesting to know since I have no idea.

What conflicts are being funded the most by the United States? Is this one really the top or does it just seem like it?

Spoiler

Also, there's the religious angle to this one.

In 2007, the Bush Administration and the Israeli government agreed to a 10-year, $30 billion military aid package for the period from FY2009 to FY2018. During his March 2013 visit to Israel, President Obama pledged that the United States would continue to provide Israel with multi-year commitments of military aid subject to the approval of Congress.
The FY2014 Consolidated Appropriations Act (P.L. 113-76) provides the President’s full $3.1 billion request in FMF for Israel. In addition, it provides another $504 million in funding for research, development, and production of Israel’s Iron Dome anti-rocket system ($235 million) and of the joint U.S.-Israel missile defense systems David’s Sling ($149.7 million), the Arrow improvement program (or Arrow II, $44.3 million), and Arrow III ($74.7 million).
For FY2015, the Administration is requesting $3.1 billion in FMF to Israel and $10 million in Migration and Refugee Assistance. The Missile Defense Agency’s FY2015 request for joint U.S.- Israeli programs is $96.8 million. The Administration also is requesting $175.9 million for Iron Dome.

http://fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

Outside of active US wars (and even sometimes if I remember right in 2008,2009,2010 the US gave Israel more than it spent in Iraq) then Israel gets by far the most. The dictator de jour in Eygpt and Pakistan get the next largest amount of US military funding.

 

[Aaron]

I don't know how far back Hamas has been firing rockets, but I do know about a Hamas rocket weapon developed in 2001 that was used to fire rockets into Israel.

Yes, and they've killed a total of 28 people with those rockets in 13 years. The IDF kill more in an afternoon. More people die from virtually any other cause on the planet than from Hamas rockets. More people have been killed from giant anteaters than Hamas rockets.

 

[zer0blivion]

https://twitter.com/DrBasselAbuward/status/494034076462874625

 

[DXB-KNIGHT]

Israel is sadly and ironically is turning Gaza from a open prison to a closed oven. Disgusting

 

[Miles Quaritch]

https://twitter.com/DrBasselAbuward/status/494034076462874625

The fuck? That has to be fake?

 

[Dopus]

Okay, as long as no one is letting Hamas off the hook. That's all I'm pointing out.

And the establishment of Israel is the problem. When Britain and US left Israel their entire stockpile of military vehicles and weapons after WW2, it completely escalated the war in that region and made Israel into a super power "for the sake of defense".

Israel is at fault for their actions, but Britain, US, and probably some more members of the UN made this war happen.

The establishment of Israel is a problem, but it is not THE problem. Israel has a right to defend itself, whatever someone thinks about its establishment is neither here nor there at this point. It's not going anywhere. The discussion has to move forward, clinging to the past and using as an excuse to continue these terrible polices does absolutely nothing to further progress. Again, Israel has made a deliberate choice to continue building settlements. It has made a deliberate choice to isolate Abbas. It has made a deliberate choice not to talk directly with Hamas. It has made a deliberate choice to reject the furthering of the dialogue between the two peoples and subject the Palestinian people to a collective punishment.

Israel, the United States, the United Kingdom - They're all responsible. The US has enabled Israel to continue with this behaviour which if it was any other country would be condemned for doing so. It's a bloody mess both literally and figuratively, but nothing will change if the powers that be refuse to deal with the primary causes of the problem. Treating the symptoms won't make the problem go away.

The fuck? That has to be fake?

No, it's very much real.

 

[Nikodemos]

The fuck? That has to be fake?

It's a standard SMS warning. The impressive thing is they actually gave the inhabitants 10 minutes to evacuate. It's usually 5, and even then the Tzahal tends to jump the gun (pun intended).

 

[zeroOman]

It's a standard SMS warning. The impressive thing is they actually gave the inhabitants 10 minutes to evacuate. It's usually 5, and even then the Tzahal tends to jump the gun (pun intended).

and ppl don't get that everything they own is going to be destroyed and burnnn.... see how they care alot....

- Hamas splinter group* kidnaps and murders 3 Israeli settlers in the West Bank
- IDF blame Hamas and commence actions against them on shakier ground than the Iraq War
- IDF arrest 400+ Palestinians looking for them and ransack their homes
- Gaza increases the rate of rockets in response
- It all spirals out of control from there

EDIT: *Isolated group that considers themselves affiliated with Hamas but is not controlled by nor endorsed by them

dude fix ur post and where is the source for ur last part?

 

[docbon]

Oh i see. The rest of the point stands. Every time they do this rocket-lobbing shit, Israel comes back and bites the shit out of them, and it's the civilians who suffer the most. If their primary concern was for civilians, then provoking a nation that's proven over and over again a willingness to disproportionately blow shit up may not be a good fucking plan.

And Israel doesn't give a shit about anyone but its own citizenry...but guess what? It really doesn't have to. They'll continue to run their oppressive apartheid state and shit like these rocket attacks continues to provide a distraction from that issue and an excuse for them fighting and laying down all of these draconian laws and policies.

Just gonna offer my brief interpretation of this recent course of events because I feel they weren't the ones who did the provoking:

Before all this unfolded, Hamas was ready to hand over a great deal of control to Abbas and the PLO as a part of their agreement to join the Unity government. It wasn't in their best interest to begin hostilities. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...6eb3f4-eb4a-11e3-9f5c-9075d5508f0a_story.html)

This latest operation was set into motion because Israel blamed Hamas for the kidnapping of the three Israeli teens before any kind of formal investigation was done, and as Hamas denied involvement. (And as it turns out, they were telling the truth.)

Israel decided to pour into the West Bank and begin mass arresting anyone with affiliations to Hamas, among others. During the arrests, they also managed to kill two Palestinians.

http://maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=706367

An Israeli army spokesman said that 25 Palestinians were detained as soldiers searched 200 locations across the West Bank. Since the beginning of the operation, 330 Palestinians have been detained, 240 of whom are affiliated to Hamas, he added.

This was the provocation, and is why they started lobbing rockets. Was it the right decision? Probably not, but it's difficult to expect them to grit their teeth and stand on the sidelines as hundreds of their affiliates and others are arrested indefinitely with neither proof nor due process. Unfortunately, it also gave Israel the perfect pretext to begin their attempt at breaking down the Unity government via Protective Edge.

 

[Shining Sunshine]

Yes, and they've killed a total of 28 people with those rockets in 13 years. The IDF kill more in an afternoon. More people die from virtually any other cause on the planet than from Hamas rockets. More people have been killed from giant anteaters than Hamas rockets.

Hamas rockets are doing more damage than just with people's deaths. If they had stopped firing rockets long ago, the conflict wouldn't have kept continuing to this point.

More people have died because of this ongoing conflict over the past half century. 10 thousand lives were lost in the Yom Kippur War alone.
This isn't just a problem of a few days. There's an entire history of this Israeli-Arab war that we need to worry about.

Right now, yes, IDF should stop or someone needs to stop them. But what are we going to do? Retaliate against Israel? That's just going to continue breeding this violence.

I'm going to leave on this note. I understand you guys are emotional, and I am as disgusted as I was during 9/11, but I'm being objective with this ongoing problem between Israel and Palestine by saying they both needed to stop attacking.

 

[zer0blivion]

The fuck? That has to be fake?

Their lawyers said, if you give them advanced warning, you can bomb civilian houses, hospitals, whatever you want. It allows them to operate with impunity (as long as the US capitulates and vetoes any UN resolution against them).

 

[Aaron]

Hamas rockets are doing more damage than just with people's deaths. If they had stopped firing rockets long ago, the conflicted wouldn't have kept continuing to this point.

Again, you continue to ignore the conflict on the West Bank. If there was no Hamas, half of Gaza would have been bulldozed and resettled by now. Sure, Hamas rockets do more than kill people... but IDF DO WAY WAY MORE DAMAGE. Christ man, you can't just say everything would have been all right without Hamas when the IDF have been at this well before they existed.

It's like when people complain about religion being an excuse for people to do evil. Religion isn't the culprit. If people want to do evil, they'll find another excuse. If the IDF want to bomb Gaza, and they clearly do, no Hamas isn't going to stop them. They'll find another excuse.

 

[kmag]

Hamas rockets are doing more damage than just with people's deaths. If they had stopped firing rockets long ago, the conflict wouldn't have kept continuing to this point.

More people have died because of this ongoing conflict over the past half century. 10 thousand lives were lost in the Yom Kippur War alone.
This isn't just a problem of a few days. There's an entire history of this Israeli-Arab war that we need to worry about.

Right now, yes, IDF should stop or someone needs to stop them. But what are we going to do? Retaliate against Israel? That's just going to continue breeding this violence.

I'm going to leave on this note. I understand you guys are emotional, and I am as disgusted as I was during 9/11, but I'm being objective with this ongoing problem between Israel and Palestine by saying they both needed to stop attacking.

Don't be so fucking naive. No rockets in the West Bank yet Israel is merrily demolishing Palestinian homes to build new Israeli settlements. The Israeli's are not a willing partner for a lasting and just peace, their idea of peace is the peace to steal more land.

 

[KingK]

AIght how about this plan. Hamas completely dismantles, give up rockets, the Unity Government takes control of both Gaza and West Bank, UN on the borders, crossing, and in the city. So if there is a rocket attack they can work with PLO to apprehend suspects that committed terrorism against another sovereign nation. Oh and since it's under UN auspices give the right of access to the Sea back to the Palestine. But make sure the UN has teeth to clamp down on illicit smuggling of weapons.

Oh and make East Jerusalem an UN-run City. At least for the time being.

Sounds like a plan to me. Good luck getting Israel to agree, especially to the UN controlling East Jerusalem. They hate the UN almost as much as they hate Hamas.

Oh i see. The rest of the point stands. Every time they do this rocket-lobbing shit, Israel comes back and bites the shit out of them, and it's the civilians who suffer the most. If their primary concern was for civilians, then provoking a nation that's proven over and over again a willingness to disproportionately blow shit up may not be a good fucking plan.

And Israel doesn't give a shit about anyone but its own citizenry...but guess what? It really doesn't have to. They'll continue to run their oppressive apartheid state and shit like these rocket attacks continues to provide a distraction from that issue and an excuse for them fighting and laying down all of these draconian laws and policies.

Please, stop falling for the propaganda. I understand what you're saying, and agree that Hamas is dumb and shouldn't have fired rockets, but they didn't provoke shit here. Israel wanted this war. Israel was the one that escalated all of this from the beginning. Also, keep in mind that the UN estimates Gaza will be literally unlivable for human beings by 2020 because of the Israeli siege/blockade that's been going on for 7 or 8 years, so it's not like there's much to lose from the Palestinian's perspective.

I'll quote my summary of the events leading up to this from the main thread yesterday.

Really? Hamas is stupid and has not been helpful towards the peace process at all, but Netanyahu's government deserves the majority of the blame for the escalation of this current conflict.

Hamas had just formed a unity government with Fatah (those guys in the West Bank who have renounced violence) and had, for the first time that I know of, mentioned that peace along the '67 lines would be acceptable. This is likely because financial and political support for Hamas had been drying up (no more Iran money coming in), so they were forced to moderate and turn to Fatah. That seems to me like significant progress, and something that could be capitalized on to push for a more permanent peace if Israel wanted to. Instead, Netanyahu exploits a tragedy, whips up a nationalistic frenzy, and blatantly lies about Hamas being responsible for the missing teens to go on a rampage through the West Bank; arresting and inuring hundreds without charge, and killing a few others (the similarities to Bush exploiting 9/11 and lying about WMDs to invade Iraq are striking, as are the similarities of US media coverage).

I don't think Hamas should have responded with rocket fire, but that would be easily predicted, and I find it hard to believe Netanyahu wasn't intentionally provoking a violent response considering his lies about the teens and the ridiculous shit he pulled in the West Bank. His modus operandi has been to exploit fear to remain in power and enact his right-wing policies. Fear of terrorists, Hamas, nuclear Iran, etc. Well, Iran is negotiating with the US/EU and others on the nuclear issue (much to the chagrin of Netanyahu), and Hamas had just joined up with a peaceful government (again, much to the chagrin of Netanyahu). Provoking Hamas and responding with this massive invasion/disproportionate response is a great way to tear a wedge in the unity government and give Hamas more power and support again, so he can keep them around as a boogeyman to campaign against.

This is an admittedly cynical point of view, but I have a real hard time ascribing other motives here considering Israel's stated motive for escalating all of this (3 Israeli tennagers were kidnapped by Hamas!) has already been proven to be bullshit, and the government knew it was bullshit. And it's not like there isn't precedence for this kind of thing, both in Israel and elsewhere. Netanyahu is pulling from Bush and Putin's playbooks. Who would have thought ultra right-wing nationalists have so much in common.

Of course, the person that was directed at never responded to me, instead disappearing for a while and then coming back later to talk about "BUT WHAT ABOUT OTHER COUNTRIES THAT DO BAD STUFF GUYS!?!?! WHY DON'T YOU CARE ABOUT SYRIA!? STOP PICKING ON ISRAEL!" or some shit.

 

[Dopus]

Hamas rockets are doing more damage than just with people's deaths. If they had stopped firing rockets long ago, the conflict wouldn't have kept continuing to this point.

More people have died because of this ongoing conflict over the past half century. 10 thousand lives were lost in the Yom Kippur War alone.
This isn't just a problem of a few days. There's an entire history of this Israeli-Arab war that we need to worry about.

Right now, yes, IDF should stop or someone needs to stop them. But what are we going to do? Retaliate against Israel? That's just going to continue breeding this violence.

I'm going to leave on this note. I understand you guys are emotional, and I am as disgusted as I was during 9/11, but I'm being objective with this ongoing problem between Israel and Palestine by saying they both needed to stop attacking.

But the underlying issue isn't who is attacking who. It's the fact that Israel has no interest with a solution to this problem. That's where the frustration comes in. A unity government between Hamas and Fatah was progress but it's clear Israel is opposed to the very notion of it. Take the West Bank as an example. Houses are still being demolished, land is still being stolen, the settlement plan is still very much in effect. It makes little difference.

 

[zer0blivion]

But what are we going to do?

I am as disgusted as I was during 9/11, but I'm being objective with this ongoing problem between Israel and Palestine by saying they both needed to stop attacking.

Afford them basic human rights.

 

[Nikodemos]

Again, you continue to ignore the conflict on the West Bank. If there was no Hamas, half of Gaza would have been bulldozed and resettled by now.

Not entirely true. The main reason Israel has turned Gaza-based Hamas into "My Pocket Enemy" is because they don't have designs on the land. That's because, objectively, compared to Cisjordan, Gaza is a shithole. Soil quality is crap, water sources are few and brine contamination (coastal area) is a common and constant occurence (Gaza settlements needed ether expensive desalination plants or equally-expensive water tankers). Add to this a sizeable population the Israelis would rather not expel (for several various reasons including that they can't be arsed to bear the financial cost) and you have the perfect breeding ground for a compact 'problem', that doesn't, in absolute terms, pose an existential threat to the continued cohesion of the current form of the Israeli state but does help maintain the internal status quo (of which I have previously hinted at).

 

[Kreunt]

There will be a ceasefire eventually when the UN and others pressure them enough, but not before Israel kill off a bunch of civilians and annex some territory.

Then it'll all repeat again in a couple years.

 

[Dryk]

The can stop fucking protecting apartheid nations for one. People focus on the No from the US at the UN but don't on the other scumbags that were absent from the vote. I'm ashamed for my government for being such pussies.

I've been far more critical of the abstentions. At least the US isn't afraid to let everyone know they're shitbags.

Tbh the UN should just go to Gaza and defend the palestinians living there.

I think the cycle of revenge is too entrenched now for any solution that doesn't involve a heavy presence of UN peacekeepers. Good luck ever getting that off the ground though.

 

[Sioen]

Tbh the UN should just go to Gaza and defend the palestinians living there.

 

[Toxi]

Tbh the UN should just go to Gaza and defend the palestinians living there.

http://www.unrwa.org/

 

[Aaron]

Tbh the UN should just go to Gaza and defend the palestinians living there.

They are. The IDF drop bombs on them too.

 

[Sioen]

http://www.unrwa.org/

Well yes but I mean actual blue helmets who may fire if they are fired at.

 

[zer0blivion]

Well yes but I mean actual blue helmets who may fire if they are fired at.

That would require a security council resolution (I think) which the US would most certainly veto.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

Well yes but I mean actual blue helmets who may fire if they are fired at.

Israel had no problem bombing them in Lebanon.

 

[Dead Man]

Yes because I remember that one time on the internet a discussion on Israel and Palestine actually changed someones mind!

And it is a legitmage question, where was this rage when Sudan was killing hunderds of thousands? Where was this rage when.... insert thing that happened recently that was much worse then this.

Why does Israel and Palestine deserve so much emotion when so many others do not?

Its not baffling, im asking why people think these lives are worth more? How much time did people spend on the south and darfur sudanese? Why can Israel doing something get people marching on embassies?

It's not that they are worth more, it's that these things are more exposed on US news and television.

 

[EGOMON]

Fuck this world and fuck all the Arab leaders cowards piece of garbage :'(

 

[zer0blivion]

If you really think the IDF hit the shelter, school and camp by accident you are very naive.
What the IDF/Israel is doing is a prime example of "Terror Bombing" or "Teach em a lesson"-bombing. Goal is breaking the will of an entire country and not only it's army.

The Nazi regime's Luftwaffe did it countless times(I even think they came up with the idea).
The allies did it in WW2 (prime example is the Dresden Bombing in 1945).
The US Army did it in Hiroshima/Nagasaki and Vietnam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine
Also known as collective punishment.

 

[MacNille]

Israel had no problem bombing them in Lebanon.

Neither did the PLO had problem with bombing them as well.