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[cja]

Original story from Kent as told in First Quarter:

There is an interesting story behind Yoshi's Island. When Shigeru Miyamoto first demonstrated the game to Nintendo's marketing department, it was rejected because it had Mario-style graphics rather than the waxy, pre-rendered graphics of Donkey Kong Country. Rather than change to an artistic look he did not like, Miyamoto made the game even more cartoon-like, giving it a hand-drawn look. The second version was accepted.

Miyamoto, who is rightfully proud of his work, was offended that the first version was rejected. The same month I interviewed Miyamoto and Tim Stamper, creator of Donkey Kong Country, together and noticed that Miyamoto was a bit hard on Stamper, making such statements as "Donkey Kong Country proves that players will put up with mediocre gameplay as long as the art is good."

In a later interview, Miyamoto admitted that Yoshi's Island had been a touchy subject at the time.

I think that it happened after Donkey Kong Country was introduced. In comparison with the graphics of the Super Donkey Kong, there was not enough punch to Yoshi's Island. That was what I was told by the marketing people.

I intensified my hand-drawn touch on Yoshi's Island from the initial part of the program. Everybody else was saying that they wanted better hardware and more beautiful graphics instead of this art.

Even while I was working on the Super Mario World, I was thinking that the next hero should be Yoshi. Other people have created the games based upon Yoshi... Yoshi's World Hunters, Yoshi's Egg, Yoshi's Cookie and so forth--games that I don't really like. So I decided to make an authentic Yoshi game.

Verbatim including italics, barring typos.

 

[Laurent]

I thought the Miyamoto/Rare Yoshi'd Island/DKC episode was common knowledge. Apparently Miyamoto caught some flack from Yamauchi & Co because their SMW sequel didn't look nearly as good as DKC. They had to re-do the graphics and Miyamoto was not happy about that.

Of course, in the end, it was all worth it

That explains it! Plus, it's typical Nintendo-style to do something too simple graphicly... Wind Waker anyone? ;oP

 

[MadOdorMachine]

I disagree about DKC not aging well, the game still looks good to me today, even comparable to some PS1 games. It's distinct style sets it apart and gives it an edge that goes a long way. The music also stands with the best of any game (the under water levels in particular come to mind), it helped set the mood and brought you into the game world. It might not have had a good story, and I can see how people would call it a collect-a-thon, but it was fun to play. Shooting out of barrels, riding the mine carts, and using the special abilities of other animals (spider, frog, rhino, etc.) is some the most fun I've ever had playing game. It does'nt matter that you're trying to collect an item, it's just fun trying to get it. Bananas equal extra men, how is that any different than Mario and coins?

 

[worldrunover]

Well to be fair Yoshi's Island >>>> DKC >>>> DK64.

I still think DKC was a good game... not as good as Mario, but still.

 

[Jonnyboy117]

BTW, on a semi-related note, everytime I've seen an interview with Miyamoto-san, he always speaks Japanese. Does he ever speak English?

Rarely for more than a few sentences in public. He is arguably fluent in English, but he's a bit shy about speaking it in front of people. In a small roundtable, it's not unusual to see Miyamoto begin answering a question which was asked in English before the translator can put it into Japanese. He probably understands it better than he speaks it, but from what I've heard from people close to him, he also speaks it quite well.

 

[Ranger X]

best 2d platformers ever = (in no particular order) Yoshi's Island and DKC2.

 

[DSN2K]

never been a fan of any DK game.

 

[Kon Tiki]

If he hated it so bad, why green light the GBA port(s)?

 

[bobbyconover]

I seriously can't believe the backlash on DKC today. When this game was released everyone was singing its' praises.

I hated it, and the 3DO/CDI nonsense of the time, so much that I actually abandoned games altogether for about 5 years. So no, not everyone!

 

[Error Macro]

Holy shit, DKC was one of the best games to come out of the 16-bit era. Rare were fucking gods when they made that game. So atmospheric, so beautiful. Anyone who doesn't like it should be strung up by their nutsacks.

 

[belgurdo]

Holy shit, DKC was one of the best games to come out of the 16-bit era. Rare were fucking gods when they made that game. So atmospheric, so beautiful. Anyone who doesn't like it should be strung up by their nutsacks.

I hear that. The Nfan anti-Rare backlash is ridiculous sometimes

 

[GigaDrive]

DKC was shit, aside from the nicely rendered graphics.


DKC is probably responsible for catapulting the SNES over the Genesis in the U.S.

 

[teiresias]

So basically, we learn that Miyamoto is racist and a cry-baby, good to know.

 

[bobbyconover]

I hear that. The Nfan anti-Rare backlash is ridiculous sometimes

N-Fan nothing. Back at the time, hardly anyone I knew even knew or cared who Rare was, and had absolutely no interest in lame fanboy politics. And they all thought the game looked like complete ass - yes, there were many of us who have rejected the horrible look of pre-rendered graphics all along - and played like a derivative, un-fun version of many other awesome platform games.

Seriously, you guys can like DKC all you want - that's fine. But saying every single person who dislikes it is just some scrambling Nintendo fanboy looking for reasons to hate Rare is some serious bullshit. I actually consider myself a Rare fan (in ways) and think everything about the game, from the ugly as sin character designs (both the monkeys and the idiotic reptile guys) to the never-looked-cool rendered graphics to the level structure and gameplay is total ass. Just because it is. Not because I love Nintendo and hate Rare.

 

[TheGreenGiant]

I liked DKC for its time. Yes, the graphics were nice (they had they spiffy rendered look for the time). But when the sequels rolled around. ZZZ.... The game doesn't really offer that much growth/challenge.

DKC was also sort of the innovative for the character swapping and animal riding business.

 

[Synbios459]

Man, I'm really surprised at how many people who hate DKC. What's the hate with using pre-rendered graphics? It was really unique, and the characters blended in really well, unlike in games such as RE where they stick out like a sore thumb. Infact the only thing I didn't like about it was the boss battles (but they got MUCH better in 2). Miyamoto has no reason to complain, he gave them the franchise, and didn't list any specifics as to how it's supposed to look. If anything I think it was better with what they went with then the same old graphics (while good) that everyone else used.

Can anyone specify exactly why they didn't like the gameplay? It was pure platforming bliss, especially when you had to shoot from barrel to barrel. I will admit that I thought DKC3 was HORRIBLE!

 

[drohne]

er, i still think the first dkc was pretty good. simple, enjoyable 8 bit platforming, fluid animation, and an excellent soundtrack. i actually like the character design as well - monkeys kick ass. i was always mystified by people who preferred it to mario, though: if you recall, the game was often seriously mentioned as one of the best of all time. the correction of its reputation in recent years was of course necessary, but in many cases it's gone too far, and in many cases it's totally disingenuous.

 

[Baron Aloha]

FACT:

DKC >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SMW2YI

DKC was a brilliant game. Great music, great graphics, fun gameplay, secrects, humor, it had it all. Yoshi's Island? I thought it sucked compared to DKC. I was expecting something great so I stuck with it and beat it but it just kept sucking all the way through (I kept playing it to see if/when it got good). It just seemed boring as hell, slow, and Mario's whining was annoying as hell.

Super Mario World 1 on the other hand.... well that's a whole other story.

 

[Error Macro]

N-Fan nothing. Back at the time, hardly anyone I knew even knew or cared who Rare was, and had absolutely no interest in lame fanboy politics. And they all thought the game looked like complete ass - yes, there were many of us who have rejected the horrible look of pre-rendered graphics all along - and played like a derivative, un-fun version of many other awesome platform games.

I don't know what planet you were on in 1994, but DKC was universally praised for it's awesome graphics. The game magazines were going ape shit (no pun intended) because it looked better than alot of Saturn and PSX games. It was heralded as the SNES's swan song; 32-bit graphics from a 16-bit cartridge based system.

 

[AniHawk]

That explains it! Plus, it's typical Nintendo-style to do something too gorgeous graphicly... Wind Waker anyone? ;oP

Agreed.

I liked DKC back in the day, and got all three GB incarnations of the series. I thought they were fun games. Today, the simple gameplay really shows, and the game has aged poorly, but I still think they're fun games, DKC2 being the best.

Still enjoyed Yoshi's Island more though.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

If so +1 Miyamoto

Donkey Kong Country is a piece of TRASH!

 

[FightyF]

I thought I was the only one who thought that DKC sucked. From the first time I played it...I felt that the game was over-hyped, it wasn't anything special at all (as far as gameplay is concerned).

But DKC2 and 3 were really good, some of my favorite SNES games ever.

 

[bobbyconover]

I don't know what planet you were on in 1994, but DKC was universally praised for it's awesome graphics. The game magazines were going ape shit (no pun intended) because it looked better than alot of Saturn and PSX games. It was heralded as the SNES's swan song; 32-bit graphics from a 16-bit cartridge based system.

DKC came out a month before the Playstation's Japanese release. No matter - I thought it looked like shit then, and I think it looks like shit now, so the term "universally" apparently doesn't apply! You don't have to fill me in on the details, I was 16 at the time and had been playing games since before I could walk. I - a huge fan of platform games, not to mention of the original Donkey Kong and Rare's previous games - thought it sucked then, and I wasn't alone.

If you really want to get into it, we can start listing off other lousy games that were once "universally praised" by game mags. There is always someone who disagrees, and often there are many. I, for one, think pre-rendered graphics have always looked like ass. Likewise, I also thought the early polygonal graphics looked like ass. I remember predicting at the time that 10 years later DKC and early psx/saturn games would look horrible (practically unplayable in the case of some psx/saturn games), while earlier games would retain their charm and playability. It seems to me it has played out almost exactly that way. Today I still don't want to play shitty-ass DKC, and even a lot of fans of it are now saying it hasn't held up at all. Yet they aren't saying that about countless other 2D platformers.

This is total conjecture, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people who look back fondly on DKC were younger when it came out, had it bought for them by parents who simply picked up the hottest (selling) game at the time, and have fond memories of it because it was the only game they had to play for months at a time. Kinda like how I look back fondly on "Dragon Power" and "Squoon," even though deep inside I know they suck.

 

[ge-man]

I don't why this thread changed to a DKC love it/hate it thread. The quality DKC was not even the main point. This episode had more to do with an older designer trying to swim against the tide than anything else. Who cares about how good DKC was?

 

[neptunes]

Even while I was working on the Super Mario World, I was thinking that the next hero should be Yoshi. Other people have created the games based upon Yoshi... Yoshi's World Hunters, Yoshi's Egg, Yoshi's Cookie and so forth--games that I don't really like. So I decided to make an authentic Yoshi game.

He hates games?

Finally we get to see his true colors.

 

[Dragmire]

Speak it, Miyamoto! Rare has made great software, but not DKC. Yeah, the graphics were impressive, but at the same time the character design was horrible. You can be impressed by ugly looking characters when the technology is more advanced than you ever expected on its hardware. Character design is an area Rare has always had trouble with, as with many developers.

DK looked fine, great in fact, and Diddy was pretty good, too. But the enemies and every other character were awful. Awful! K. Rool? Whatthehellisthat? The environments were good at times, disappointing at others. The jungle looked like plastic and that could have been neat and stylish, but ended up an odd thing that just lacked, IMO. I found the rain to look pretty bad, too. But yeah, I was impressed with the game, and disappointed at the same time. Some people don't want to cloud one emotion with another less positive one because they want to like something. Thankfully, I wasn't in a position like that.

Beyond that, the back-story was horrendous and the gameplay wasn't very good. The dual character concept almost made it special, but they didn't do anything good with it. And character control was extremely floaty... hell it was slippery like an ice level. Compare it to Mario and Luigi, which took full advantage of the dual character concept. Much better execution with some very clever gameplay. Rare has often had trouble realizing ambitious (or sometimes non-ambitious) ideas.

Actually, maybe it would be more apt to compare it to DK for GameBoy. Wow, relevence! Amazing. You mean the original DK's gameplay can be improved upon? Progressive! You say the characters in this game are pallatable? I'm dumbfounded. Honestly, no comparison.

Of course, the quality of Yoshi's Island is a whole other level, too. Visually, I was more satisfied. Pre-rendered graphics don't have to look bad, but Nintendo turned their nose up at them and their graphics looked better than DKC. The game is gorgeous and the gameplay was unique and great.

I'd say Miyamoto is more than qualified to criticise DKC. Some people say if you don't like something, do better. Miyamoto has done that a hundred times. Today's Rare is built upon lackluster SNES games. Thankfully, good has come out of that, but any discontent Miyamoto had with the company should be understandable. When you guys make games like Yoshi's Island one day, you'll understand.

 

[Error Macro]

DKC came out a month before the Playstation's Japanese release. No matter - I thought it looked like shit then, and I think it looks like shit now, so the term "universally" apparently doesn't apply! You don't have to fill me in on the details, I was 16 at the time and had been playing games since before I could walk. I - a huge fan of platform games, not to mention of the original Donkey Kong and Rare's previous games - thought it sucked then, and I wasn't alone.

If you really want to get into it, we can start listing off other lousy games that were once "universally praised" by game mags. There is always someone who disagrees, and often there are many. I, for one, think pre-rendered graphics have always looked like ass. Likewise, I also thought the early polygonal graphics looked like ass. I remember predicting at the time that 10 years later DKC and early psx/saturn games would look horrible (practically unplayable in the case of some psx/saturn games), while earlier games would retain their charm and playability. It seems to me it has played out almost exactly that way. Today I still don't want to play shitty-ass DKC, and even a lot of fans of it are now saying it hasn't held up at all. Yet they aren't saying that about countless other 2D platformers.

This is total conjecture, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people who look back fondly on DKC were younger when it came out, had it bought for them by parents who simply picked up the hottest (selling) game at the time, and have fond memories of it because it was the only game they had to play for months at a time. Kinda like how I look back fondly on "Dragon Power" and "Squoon," even though deep inside I know they suck.

You are a winner.

 

[Bizarro Sun Yat-sen]

Early Saturn and PS games still mostly look fine to me (so do games like SNES Starfox for that matter). I guess I value interesting graphics over clean or polished graphics.

 

[Scrow]

my thoughts exactly...

art graphics > technical graphics...

Yes. Paper Mario 2 proves this. Best looking game ever.

If he hated it so bad, why green light the GBA port(s)?

Why do you think? I'll give you a clue... $

;P

 

[TekunoRobby]

I still have that Nintendo Power tape they sent out where they "BLEW THE LID OFF DONKEY KONG COUNTRY."

Oh god that tape is hysterical.

 

[SA-X]

DKC1 was fun but nothing special. DKC2 is much much better and more challenging. DKC3 was kinda redundant after playing the first two.

Overall it was a very good series of games (especially DKC2) but Yoshi's Island blows them all away. FACT.

 

[Borat]

I found the Donky Kong Country games far more fun than the gimmicky Yoshi's Island.

 

[GDGF]

I have that tape too, TekunoRobby. A couple of the others too. I gotta put them in someday for a laugh.

 

[Hitman]

Anyone who thinks DKC games were bad is a fuckin retard. Those were some of the best games to come out of the 16-bit era. Not only was the gameplay fast and fun but the graphics were top notch and the music was by far the best soundtrack of any 16 bit game at the time.

 

[Socreges]

I really, really enjoyed DKC and DKC2.

That said, Yoshi's Island may be my single favourite platformer.

 

[Synbios459]

The music in the water levels>>>>>>>>ALL!!!!

 

[hobbitx]

I disagree about DKC not aging well, the game still looks good to me today, even comparable to some PS1 games. It's distinct style sets it apart and gives it an edge that goes a long way. The music also stands with the best of any game (the under water levels in particular come to mind), it helped set the mood and brought you into the game world. It might not have had a good story, and I can see how people would call it a collect-a-thon, but it was fun to play. Shooting out of barrels, riding the mine carts, and using the special abilities of other animals (spider, frog, rhino, etc.) is some the most fun I've ever had playing game. It does'nt matter that you're trying to collect an item, it's just fun trying to get it. Bananas equal extra men, how is that any different than Mario and coins?

I couldn't agree more, I will never understand this age bad stuff. I still fool around with DKC every now and then and it still looks wonderful as ever. That ice cavern level is still one of the most beautiful things I've ever see in a game. Also, I've yet to see another game, 3d or 2d, top Donkey Kong's enemy junping physics, rolling and bashing through all those levels was just too much fun. I never get sick of jumping on all those krocs in the second level.

 

[Kiriku]

Yoshi's Island >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DKC

 

[Red Dolphin]

I disagree about DKC not aging well, the game still looks good to me today, even comparable to some PS1 games. It's distinct style sets it apart and gives it an edge that goes a long way. The music also stands with the best of any game (the under water levels in particular come to mind), it helped set the mood and brought you into the game world. It might not have had a good story, and I can see how people would call it a collect-a-thon, but it was fun to play. Shooting out of barrels, riding the mine carts, and using the special abilities of other animals (spider, frog, rhino, etc.) is some the most fun I've ever had playing game. It does'nt matter that you're trying to collect an item, it's just fun trying to get it. Bananas equal extra men, how is that any different than Mario and coins?

IAWTP. DKC still looks beautiful to this day and is much easier to play in the current times then trying to go back and play 90% of the N64's blurry mess of a library (playing on a monitor or small TV makes a big difference though). And the music is some of my favourite music ever. I must have about 5 different remixes of the beautiful underwater music. There was even a live version played by an orchastra that sounded so good and even depressing at times! The gameplay was VERY SIMPLE but extremely well executed and very fun. Mario series definately had more complex and deeper gameplay in its later titles but that didn't mean DKC had bad gameplay.

Man, I'm really surprised at how many people who hate DKC. What's the hate with using pre-rendered graphics? It was really unique, and the characters blended in really well, unlike in games such as RE where they stick out like a sore thumb. Infact the only thing I didn't like about it was the boss battles (but they got MUCH better in 2). Miyamoto has no reason to complain, he gave them the franchise, and didn't list any specifics as to how it's supposed to look. If anything I think it was better with what they went with then the same old graphics (while good) that everyone else used.

Can anyone specify exactly why they didn't like the gameplay? It was pure platforming bliss, especially when you had to shoot from barrel to barrel. I will admit that I thought DKC3 was HORRIBLE!

I too am amazed at the amount of hate this title gets.

DKC3 was the only one of the series I never finished. I liked the much harder and more challenging gameplay but other then that it felt really uninspired and not very polished. It was done by a different team if I remember though.

 

[Red Dolphin]

Beyond that, the back-story was horrendous and the gameplay wasn't very good. The dual character concept almost made it special, but they didn't do anything good with it. And character control was extremely floaty... hell it was slippery like an ice level. Compare it to Mario and Luigi, which took full advantage of the dual character concept. Much better execution with some very clever gameplay. Rare has often had trouble realizing ambitious (or sometimes non-ambitious) ideas.

Anyone that uses DKC's story as a bad bullet point against the game has got serious issues. Many of the greatest games of all time have the worst stories ever, but are not really essential to the overall quality of the game. i.e. Mario platformers series.. er save the princess, and um lets save the princess again!

And the controls slippery and bad? WTF? Beautiful controls.

 

[FriScho]

beats

 

[lordmrw]

Today, the simple gameplay really shows, and the game has aged poorly, but I still think they're fun games, DKC2 being the best.

I think DKC 2 definitely turned out the best. Nice variety in gameplay, awesome level design, and I loved the soundtrack. I really don't know what happened with part 3.

 

[lordmrw]

beats

That red X is so fuckin sexy. But seriously, I think the backgrounds still hold up. Its the prerendered sprites and their animation that blatantly stick out. I remember being amazed when Donkey Kong would flip out and beat his chest in the original, but now I just chuckle at it.

 

[ge-man]

I don't think that people are just jumping on a bandwagon with DKC. Like bobbyconover, I wasn't a big fan even when the game first came out. I got for Christmas, completed it in a few days, and then never felt bothered with wanting to go through again and collect everything. It just wasn't anything spetacular IMO. I don't think it's fair to accuse people of being faboyish--this can apply to anybody including Nintendo.

 

[Rlan]

I do remember a interview in either EDGE or NEXT Generation magazines that Miyomato loved the new design for Donkey Kong. He sent over an image of his own drawing of Donkey Kong, and they sent one back. Both images were on that page, any remember it or have scans?

And I loved Donkey Kong Country, I used to always go over to a friends house to play it. The graphics looked phenominal, so smooth and vibrant, with Day and night, rain, water, everything.

And there were so many secret passageways and items to find! Why, getting on top of a tree sometimes meant you could grab a barrel and shoot your way through a difficult bit of the level, or maybe it would allow you to jump down and hit that rickity piece of land, maybe it has Bananas or a Barrel to squash the 4 Beavers heading your way? Maybe getting the Rhino would allow me to break through that wall, maybe the frog will allow me to get that Ostritch token? Maybe using Diddy would be better here, or maybe Donkey Kong can take care of those large enemies?

Bliss.

To be honest, I was never really a fan of the SMW1 artwork, it looked a bit TOO simple in comparison to Sonic 1 at the time, but I liked the All-Stars look better.

 

[shuri]

DKC > modern shiggy offering. The man has lost his touch

 

[GDGF]

DCK had some good points and bad points. First, the music was amazing. To this day, I can listen to the underwater theme loop for hours. Second, the graphics were great for their time, and helped the SNES stay relevant during the tail end of the 16 bit generation.
Unfortunately, the controls were kinda sluggish, and the character/enemy design was pretty crap. I couldn't really get into the sequels either. For it's time though, DKC was a very important game.

 

[JackFrost2012]

Yes, for the record, I am not bandwagon jumping. I remember playing it at some Nintendo tour event in 1995 or 96 or whatever and thinking, "what? this is a platformer with prerendered graphics ... the SNES isn't doing anything, Rare is just prerendering sprites. and the gameplay is generic and awful."

Many years later my opinion is unchanged.

 

[Ranger X]

The only thing i'm glad to see here is that some people talk like they aren't graphic whores and i hope for them that it's true. BUT...
DKC2 definetely is a great game, i thought more people would see that. And the fuck DKC isn't a collect-o-thon guys! If DKC is a collect-o-thon then Yoshi's Island is even more boring!!! In DKC you just have the DKcoins and Letters coins...

 

[sc0la]

I found the Donky Kong Country games far more fun than the gimmicky Yoshi's Island.

What?! can you please explain how it is "gimmicky"?

I don't care if you don't like it. Thats fine. I am even quite fond of DKC, but YI is simply my favorite 2D platformer. But to say it is gimmicky is maximum hyperbole to me.