Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
No one has said he asked for this.
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'Shirtstorm' Leads To Apology From European Space Scientist
- Thread starter richiek
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smokeandmirrors
Banned
Seriously it's such a weird fucking backlash. It shouldn't take more than a second of thought to deduce how the shirt itself could be problematic. It seems like this is another case of the silly "anti-pc, anti-skeleton" backlash being louder than the actual backlash especially in this thread
Bedameister
Member
I remember an interviewer telling him how awesome his shirt was.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
The shirt itself or wearing it at the wrong time in the wrong place? Two totally different things.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
The topic isn't about him wearing this at home or with friends.
maquiladora
Member
There's a time and a place for a shirt like that.
30 years ago at the bottom of a landfill.
Backlashes like this make me lose faith in humanity more than anything else. Social media facilitates a platform where anything is a problem, and even if it is a problem, it can be magnified to unimaginable heights. The fact that the word "ostracized" is being thrown around is a testament to that.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
The combination of wearing it at the time and place he was in is the crux of the issue. Wearing it around friends and family? No one bats an eye. Wearing it on a public broadcast while being interviewed for [big sciency thingy] is where it becomes an issue.
TwEE-N-Toast
Banned
Yes, a few pages back it was insinuated she might be suffering from Internalized misogyny.
Moral Panic
Member
Which post are you referring to?
John Kowalski
Banned
Sexism, its methods of proliferation, its institutional ramifications, and its symptomatic subjectivity are not easy nor simple subjects. One certainly doesn't need a lot of training to instinctively recognize these things, but to have the capacity to discern them into words, and communicable educative information? That requires a ton of training and skill.
Unfortunately the latter is sorely lacking. You can't have Mumei answering every question.
Twitter and Facebook are cancer in my eyes because of this
Moral Panic
Member
I don't understand this hyperbole either. It's not like people are going up to him and throwing shit in his face, screaming at him or trying to have him lynched. He got some serious flak yes, but the fact that this makes you "lose faith in humanity more than anything else" vs the rapes, the murders and the terror that people are living through today says more about you than it does about anything else.
So instead of actually blaming her as well, the creator of the shirt is a victim now, because she is female? Oh boy.
Could the term "space sluts" actually simply be a reference to this?
To me it looks as if he just loved that tacky shirt itself and wore it to make his friend (the creator) happy and didn't think about it much. Would make sense to me. Isn't that one of those (stereo-)typical nerd behaviours? Being a genius, but at the same time not getting other "common" things, that some people take for granted.
You insinuate that his mindset is this and that. And that may be simply wrong. He could be the most friendly guy in the world and just has a weird taste for t-shirts. You judge people based on their appearances and not on their actions, which is sad. Isn't that what feminists go against otherwise? "Just because I'm dressed a certain way doesn't make me ..."
And the most misogynistic man in the world could wear a nice suit and tie.
You could say the same about that mohawk guy. You could say the same about the tatoos. Is it so called professional to give an interview, while your tatoos are visible? I don't think so either. I mean "is that man a scientist or a biker herp derp"
I'm sure glad there aren't any offensive images anywhere in the world no matter how far I look back
The Purple Pill
Member
I want that shirt. I don't understand how people could get offended by it, he even got it from a female friend, Elly Prizeman, who custom made it, he wore it that day, to show his sexy tattoos and sexy shirt, made by one of his close friends, who happens be to a female artist.
First time we land on a comet, and the talk is about a fucking shirt, not the great scientific achievement, the fuck?!
Are we turning back to the dark middle ages or something?
I'll be ordering one of those T-shirt, I hope they are restocking them.
First time we land on a comet, and the talk is about a fucking shirt, not the great scientific achievement, the fuck?!
Are we turning back to the dark middle ages or something?
I'll be ordering one of those T-shirt, I hope they are restocking them.
TwEE-N-Toast
Banned
This is the one that stood out. There may have been more, but may have just been discussing the theory in general.
You don't get to tell people what's offensive and what isn't.
I'm laughing at dan's edit.
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
that's depressing.
MonkeyKing
Member
Theres that thing about "unintended consequences" again. Bringing up a legitimate issue at the wrong time can encourage people to dismiss your issue, instead of giving it fair hearing.
At first I thought the Verge article was parody. Lets not talk about this monumental achievement, this extraordinary success; lets talk about this man's shirt, because thats MY issue. Screw him and what he's doing, lets talk about ME. Nah, they can't be serious....wait, really?! Seriously?
I just think its wrong to shit on this guy in his moment of triumph. The man spends years of his time on this once in a lifetime event, and gets blown up because some people think his shirt represents gender inequity in STEM fields. But its ok, because he's remorseful, we'll just pat him on the head and take this as an opportunity to raise awareness.
jakonovski
Member
I'm probably dousing myself with gasoline:
It's like, feminism is David and kyriarchy is Goliath, except David has no weapons and Goliath doesn't even notice who they stomp on. Then from the shoulders of Goliath I'm like hey I could maybe sorta get into that feminism business to even things out, but when I clumsily clamber down David, or some part of David, tells me to fuck off. I consider my choices, and it's actually pretty nice being oblivious up here, playing vidya games and shit. I add weight to Goliath's stomp, but it's not like I notice any of it.
It's like, feminism is David and kyriarchy is Goliath, except David has no weapons and Goliath doesn't even notice who they stomp on. Then from the shoulders of Goliath I'm like hey I could maybe sorta get into that feminism business to even things out, but when I clumsily clamber down David, or some part of David, tells me to fuck off. I consider my choices, and it's actually pretty nice being oblivious up here, playing vidya games and shit. I add weight to Goliath's stomp, but it's not like I notice any of it.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
That's because it's controversial and important, just like literally any current news topic that floats to the top of anything.
Moral Panic
Member
The problem is that there is never a right time. Probably totally inappropriate but
Martin Luther King said:
I am absolutely useless at finding free journal articles, but here's the abstract with the study authors and other information. Also interesting in the related links: Interacting with sexist men triggers social identity threat among female engineers.
Well I'm happy chalk it up to message board misinterpretation, but it looked very much like you were talking across me and attributing a point of view or argument to me that I don't think is accurate. Maybe I'm being oversensitive now, but if you'd addressed the point *to* me with an "it looks like you're saying..." rather than responding to Berzeli with "he thinks..." I think I'd have read it better.
Ah. Well, I was responding to him rather than you mostly out of laziness. But you don't think that you were arguing that the issue was that people "took offense" to the shirt? In post #737, for instance, you said that "Too many people are addicted to being offended," so when you said "Neither is vox offensi...", which I took you to mean, "Just because people are offended, doesn't necessarily mean that they have good reason to be offended," I didn't think I was being unfair by saying that you still thought that this issue was primarily about whether or not people are offended, and I didn't think it required more attention than saying that, especially since I'd just posted at length about what I thought the problem with the shirt was.
I'm sorry if you, er, took
I'm not attempting to ascribe a label to them in the first place, unless "place in which a man can wear an inappropriate shirt and no one thought that it was problematic, or at least not problematic enough to dissuade him from wearing it," which is supported by the facts because, you know, we saw it happen. I don't know about your workplace or how strict or loose the sartorial standards might be, but at my workplace I know what the expectations are for appropriate attire. I wouldn't wear something professionally that I didn't think was appropriate, and I'm working under the (perhaps misguided) presumption that he tries to adhere to whatever standards are appropriate for him professionally - even at a celebratory event like this. I think the facts pretty plainly support what I'm saying, even if you might be able to come up with a plausible (or perhaps implausible, but still possible) alternative explanation.
Elaugaufein
Member
I eagerly look forward to the day when everyone self-censors and represses themselves automatically, such that all human interaction resembles calculus, and standard societal dress could be used for safe disposal of nuclear waste, in a tasteful shade of grey.
No, I don't actually think this is what anyone is actively striving towards. I just have no idea what the vision of removing anything potentially offensive to anyone without inevitability bringing about that outcome actually is.
This is the same old argument about not being for censorship except that, in practice, certain opinions can only be expressed at the bottom of the abandoned mineshaft 20 miles out of town or you'll reap the social whirlwind. Or that shirts like the one that caused this can exist so long as no one ever sees them (so I guess they stay in the wardrobe?).
Noble goals do not necessarily have positive outcomes.
On the upside this thread has revealed to me why business attire is so formal, compared to standard dress. Businesses are terrified of risks like this event happening and so go with things that are known "safe" and people apparently approve of this adherence to arbitrarily societal rules because of fear of breaching other arbitrary social rules.
No, I don't actually think this is what anyone is actively striving towards. I just have no idea what the vision of removing anything potentially offensive to anyone without inevitability bringing about that outcome actually is.
This is the same old argument about not being for censorship except that, in practice, certain opinions can only be expressed at the bottom of the abandoned mineshaft 20 miles out of town or you'll reap the social whirlwind. Or that shirts like the one that caused this can exist so long as no one ever sees them (so I guess they stay in the wardrobe?).
Noble goals do not necessarily have positive outcomes.
On the upside this thread has revealed to me why business attire is so formal, compared to standard dress. Businesses are terrified of risks like this event happening and so go with things that are known "safe" and people apparently approve of this adherence to arbitrarily societal rules because of fear of breaching other arbitrary social rules.
Nor does he deserve it.
A woman could wear a short with half naked men on it and no one would give a fuck.
And I feel the same about this.
People looking for things to be outraged by are diminishing the capacity for outrage for the things that matter.
Gender equality issues matter, this shirt has fuck all to do with that and does not deserve outrage.
Storm in a teacup and an exercise in bullying.
dead souls
Member
And now the thread has reached peaked stupidity.
This right here is how you identify someone who doesn't understand the source of the issue being discussed. The reason a woman wearing a shirt with men on it would receive a different reaction is central to this entire discussion, and only one side seems to understand that.
jakonovski
Member
Amusingly, I've actually witnessed a t-shirt issue reminiscent of this one, without publicity naturally. In that case the reasons for nobody doing anything were (in no particular order) uncaring organisation (in the mechanical sense, not policy wise), hectic work schedule and a sense of politeness.
David is also punching himself in the face while Goliath looks on amused and confused.
hydragonwarrior
Member
LOL so this guy gets berated for a shirt with images of scantily clad women yet we're okay with watching scantily clad chicks in television and movies?
Awesome.
Awesome.
None of which would stand in the way if the issue were as well understood and out-in-the-open as it should be.
Elaugaufein
Member
Let me take a shot:
The reason is that the position of privilege that males occupy means they regard such things as being amusing rather than offensive because it has no social power behind it, essentially they can "afford" to regard it as harmless because it represents no threat to their power/position.
I understand the argument, I just don't think that banning males from wearing something that is equivalent to a thing that females can wear because of societal context is going to help you correct societal structure. At best (for your position) it will end up reversing the power imbalance, at worst people will think you're expressing something of a double standard.
They are simply tools of communication so I don't see how they are the problem.
With a shirt similar to this? Not enough to warrant an entirely different news story and a public apology.
jakonovski
Member
The act of wearing an offensive t-shirt was considered very very minor by all parties involved, including feminists. In fact the thing talked about most was how to break things without upsetting the shirt wearer.
Gentleman Jack
Member
Removing all context like dozens of posters and you have done sure is awesome.
The shirt isn't itself a threat to anyone. It's a manifestation of the structure that keeps women out of these fields, either because they enter them and don't feel welcome or because they never even go down that path. Going to school as an engineer for a woman is not an easy path. I didn't have many female classmates and those I did have speak about this issue. Now in the workplace I have no female engineering colleagues. The reasons for this are many, of course, but how society sees women is the foundation. They aren't encouraged to do these things and they are mistreated, overtly or not, if they try.
The decision to wear that shirt, and the fact it wasn't seen as a bad idea, is a product of these factors. The fact this isn't a bad guy is precisely why the issue needs to be discussed. The system isn't perpetuated by evil men bent on dissuading women from joining the sciences, it's the unthinking "boys will be boys" "oh that's just the way it is" actions that go unquestioned that do the hard work. And again that's precisely why incidents like this should be called out and discussed. No one should berate this guy or call him names because, firstly, he offered a sincere apology that his colleagues have accepted, and, secondly, it wasn't a conscious effort.
It seems like people are only willing to accept the existence or importance of systemic sexism and misogyny when it comes from cartoonish figures doing overtly unacceptable things. No one thinks rape or assault is ok. The important issues are the ones many people initially react to as "oh shutup it's just a shirt."
They are prone to toxic cultures and dog-piling, bulling and harassment. It's not just any one "side" , its far too easy to be an asshole, to round up a virtual lynch-mob for some good old fashioned internet justice.
#shirtgate #gamergate are just some of the more recent examples of this shit.
I'm hoping that this will self correct given time, as the social media space matures, but I think the companies themselves need to do far more to help with harassment and death threats. These are criminal matters and should be given the weight that the deserve.
Nemesis121
Member
He was part of team that landed space craft on a Asteroid and yet he's catching heat for a T-shirt lol, fucking humanity needs to grow up..stop being offended by the smallest thing..
So now it would be my turn to remark that she started it?
At least calling him an asshole and so on.Also: just one more reason for me to stay away from "social" media as far as possible.
Well, not necessarily. The type of discussion also depends on which reactions you seem appropriate to offensive things and things merely a few people take offence at, respectively. That's why I'm making this distinction: it's the difference between "You're right to be offended" and "Get over yourself". Obviously everyone can get offended by everything they want, but that would be my reaction to it. Also, whether I find a larger-scale "outrage" justified or not.
If I'd say offensive == someone's offended that would mean I would never say "Get over yourself". And sorry, but the Internet showed me there are a fucking lot of people who definitely have to get over themselves.
To your point of marginalisation, well, I don't think being offended means you're automatically right. Everyone has their special snowflake status, but at some point also I as a very special snowflake have to realise that the only way everyone's little offending things would be kept in mind is this rather dystopic outlook a few posts above:
Count Dookkake
Member
When I go to the gym, I like to wear my funny shirt with a doodle of a skinny guy at the beach getting sand kicked in his face.
When that one is dirty, I wear the one that has everyone pointing and laughing at a fat guy on the treadmill.
When that one is dirty, I wear the one that has everyone pointing and laughing at a fat guy on the treadmill.
Elaugaufein
Member
Which leads back to removing every trace of existing culture from a space so that $GROUP can feel welcome. This is what I was getting at before. What cultural elements can a subgroup of society retain ? In order to make all groups welcome , no group can be comfortable. How does this not lead to a formalized mode of interaction for everything so that none are excluded ? How do you propose that groups / people maintain any sense of individuality in the ideal world you desire to craft ?
Fucking monster...
No, that's not what it is. It's about being contextually aware of your actions.
Hang on a second. This shirt was an important facet of expressing culture? It appears you recognize the argument but now must attempt to push the remedy so far into the absurd that you can just ignore that the problem, as identified, is there in the first place.
"Oh well it's a problem, but I guess if we need to eliminate all form of expression to fix it we should just let it go."
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