Anime is just shorthand for fans to denote the origin, similar to cartoons being used to denote stuff from America. Both still mean animated works and are mediums.
I was agreeing with you.
Should Anime Games Be Taken More Seriously?
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Anime is just shorthand for fans to denote the origin, similar to cartoons being used to denote stuff from America. Both still mean animated works and are mediums.
I was agreeing with you.
fvng
Member
I don't even accept your explanation that somehow Anime is its own thing (its own medium) because it has a broader range of genres. That doesn't change the fact that it's still considered part of the animation medium, as opposed to its own.
ZeroMaverick
Member
It is cut and dry. It's not a medium.
At least to me and my American sensibilities. I'm fine with you and others having different opinions, and the thread isn't really about this topic. I consider anime to be a genre of the animation medium, and I could argue the point for a while. I would, however, not want to derail the thread any longer. Hopefully we can agree to disagree.
Crash Station
Member
Should genres of anime really be considered sub-genres when they utilize the same genres of every other medium? Sub-genres of first person shooters are mostly limited to a few genre combinations, while anime has drama, horror, comedy, action, etc. I definitely wouldn't compare it to FPS.
Curry-Hakase
Member
Nintendo's art style is hella anime and their games are taken pretty seriously.
Would you consider cartoons a genre?
This is basicaly what the OP is saying.
I will take Phoenix Wright kinda serious ...... but I CAN'T take recettear or random touhou serious because it makes NO SENSE to have moe gothic lolita girls in those games and if the GAME don't take itself serious, why would I ?
fvng
Member
Yeah I mean it'd be denial if anyone claimed there wasn't a shift in Persona's artstyle from light tolerable anime elements, to full on, "shit i'm watching an anime cartoon series" And yes, I played the American version, so I only have that to go on. I'm not gonna lie, the shift to full 100% anime for the series has been a bit of a turn off but I still want to play Golden at some point. I do make exceptions for some games even though the art style is not something I'm particularly a fan of
Jex
Member
When you want to debate and discuss, well, anything, it's best to not to admit that no argument can change your mind because you're admitting that you aren't open to either
- Empirical or fact based arguments
- Logic/reason based arguments
- Any argument of any kind
and that you're essentially operating under a principle of blind faith in your opinions. I know a lot of arguments on the internet involve never backing down from your opinion no matter how reasonable the counter-argument but that doesn't mean you need to explicitly state it.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Reccetear is supposed to be serious?
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
My favorite anime game is street fighter!
Dark Souls is a pretty awesome anime game too!
Dark Souls is a pretty awesome anime game too!
I think Motomura fundamentally misunderstands how "fun" Ni no Kuni's combat is; it's a relentless and thankless grind thanks to terrible AI and a poorly balanced difficulty curve IMO. Unless you set it to Easy mode, I guess.
I'm not saying that the aesthetic aspects of Ni no Kuni aren't entertaining - it's beautiful to look at, no doubt, and Ghibli's contribution is probably the best thing about it - but it falls prey to many of the problems that Level 5's original games do, with overly complicated and unentertaining subsystems and grindy battle systems.
Touhou games actually make sense if you bother with the story. Take Embodiment of Scarlet Devil as an example. The yokai live in an English style mansion. Meiling is the door guard. Sakuya is the maid. Patchouli is the librarian. Remilia is the vampire master of the house (ala Dracula), and Flandre is the mentally unstable embarrassment to the family locked up in the basement.(I'm skipping some of the minibosses)
Anime, in formal usage in the West, is shorthand for "animation from Japan". Calling anime a genre is tantamount to calling "films made in France" a genre or "literature written in Britain" a genre. Now, you can argue that both of these categories have their own unique styles which they inherited from their countries' respective cultural traditions, but you have to remember that they are not defined by those styles, only by their country of origin.
If a French production company imported an American writer, an American director, and a bunch of American actors to star in their latest film, it would be no less a "film made in France" than if the staff was entirely French in origin. In the same way, many anime which are farmed out to animation sweatshops in Korea are still "animation from Japan", despite being mostly made overseas. Many American cartoons also farm out their grunt work to Korea, a recent notable example is Avatar: Legend of Korra. Korra is still a Western cartoon, regardless of its influences (traditions imported from Japan) or how it was made (animators in Korea trained in the Japanese tradition). Another example in television is House M.D., which has a British star and a Canadian Director, but is an American production because it was filmed and broadcast in America.
The point of contention here is that some of you are unable to differentiate "subset of a medium" from "genre", assuming that, since a "medium" must be a single monolithic entity, any division of a medium must therefore be a genre/subgenre. At which point I would ask you if you consider "film" a genre of "visual arts" or "visual arts" a genre of "art".
If a French production company imported an American writer, an American director, and a bunch of American actors to star in their latest film, it would be no less a "film made in France" than if the staff was entirely French in origin. In the same way, many anime which are farmed out to animation sweatshops in Korea are still "animation from Japan", despite being mostly made overseas. Many American cartoons also farm out their grunt work to Korea, a recent notable example is Avatar: Legend of Korra. Korra is still a Western cartoon, regardless of its influences (traditions imported from Japan) or how it was made (animators in Korea trained in the Japanese tradition). Another example in television is House M.D., which has a British star and a Canadian Director, but is an American production because it was filmed and broadcast in America.
The point of contention here is that some of you are unable to differentiate "subset of a medium" from "genre", assuming that, since a "medium" must be a single monolithic entity, any division of a medium must therefore be a genre/subgenre. At which point I would ask you if you consider "film" a genre of "visual arts" or "visual arts" a genre of "art".
mullet2000
Member
I'd like Motomura's explanation if the battle system in Ni No Kuni wasn't hot garbage.
In terms of Ni No Kuni's style though, yeah they really nailed that aspect of the game. Just...that battle system...ugh.
fvng
Member
Amen. Exactly what I've been trying to explain to others the past couple of pages. You drove the point home even further.
Nymphae
Banned
They are not separate mediums, I think people are using this word incorrectly. And the words "cartoon" and "anime" do not inherantly denote country of origin. You can have a cartoon made in japan, and anime made in the west.
They are separate styles used within the medium of animation. Genres of style, if you will. Anime does not simply mean, animation from Japan. Perhaps the word is used that way within japan, but the majority of the world hears anime, and a visual style comes to mind. There is "american anime", that (obviously) isn't made in Japan, but apes the anime style, and people call it anime. The word is indicative of an art style, not necessarily just the country of origin.
Western cartoons and anime are no more separate mediums than romantic comedies and german expressionism are in the film world. They are genres within the medium of film.
Rising_Hei
Member
It depends on which anime is based... if no one takes a certain anime serious, no one will ever take its game serious either.
Edit: Cartoons in the west are for kids 99 % of the time; anime, on the other hand, is for kids, teens and adults...
Edit: Cartoons in the west are for kids 99 % of the time; anime, on the other hand, is for kids, teens and adults...
Exploratory
Banned
Well on the subject of actual anime games most developers do the bare minimum and push out a piece of absolute garbage. When was the last time a good Dragon Ball Z game came out? Not since Tenkaichi 3 imo. I like Burst Limit but that 2D plane was a no no for a DBZ game. I mean its not hard to listen to fans. They want an anime art style like storm games not this semi realistic bullshit.
Also I feel like games based on anime are great examples of Japans idgaf attitude. They often do not listen to their base which is saddening but I realized it a while ago. Or if they do it takes forever.
I've played a few Storm games and they get it right every time. Maybe not the actual gameplay which needs tuning in every title. They also fall into the classic anime fighting game pitfall of having too many Gokus and too many saibamen. (if you play these games you know what I mean). But the fan fare is off the charts and every year they get better with the roster. The single player is incredibly fun to play and imo a better representation of the manga than the bloody anime.
But the storm series feels like a diamond in the rough. There are a few other good titles but overall they are just shitty cash grabs that take advantage of their fans.
On the subject of games with "anime" art styles...I don't take a game less seriously because of its art style except for the ones like Dragons Crown or (insert Korean mmo here) that make me embarrassed to be both a guy and a gamer.
Also I feel like games based on anime are great examples of Japans idgaf attitude. They often do not listen to their base which is saddening but I realized it a while ago. Or if they do it takes forever.
I've played a few Storm games and they get it right every time. Maybe not the actual gameplay which needs tuning in every title. They also fall into the classic anime fighting game pitfall of having too many Gokus and too many saibamen. (if you play these games you know what I mean). But the fan fare is off the charts and every year they get better with the roster. The single player is incredibly fun to play and imo a better representation of the manga than the bloody anime.
But the storm series feels like a diamond in the rough. There are a few other good titles but overall they are just shitty cash grabs that take advantage of their fans.
On the subject of games with "anime" art styles...I don't take a game less seriously because of its art style except for the ones like Dragons Crown or (insert Korean mmo here) that make me embarrassed to be both a guy and a gamer.
Jex
Member
The definition that you're angling for here, with regards to anime and style is untenable and unexplainable. You can't say that works labelled anime share certain stylistic similarities and that's how you group them together because that argument falls apart nearly instantly because of the infinite stylistic range found with anime works.
Your secondary argument, that we should define works by their visual style because that's how you and others ('the majority of the world' is a questionable claim based on zero evidence) think of them doesn't hold much water because it's an equally loose and useless definition that tells you nothing. Certain works are anime because they feature the anime style that you've defined simply as "works that look like anime", which remains undefined. This means literally nothing.
In your final paragraph you casually conflate actual genres (labels that confer infomration about the content of the work) that feature defined characteristics, German Expressionism and Rom-Coms specifically, with 'Western cartoons' and 'anime' (two labels that only tell you that the works in question are animation and the geographic origin of said works). By combining these two completely different types of label (genre with medium+origin) you seem to be completely ignoring how language works at all. These two labels are not equivalent. If words only hold meaning because of how you personally define them then we can't hope to communicate anything at all because I can't be sure that my words and your words mean the same thing. Are you attempting to strike a blow at the heart of language and communication itself?
Dragonborn
Member
I don't know . I think Anime only applies to stuff made in Japan. It's the whole Avatar debate again. It's not anime, it's a cartoon (imo). Same thing for Manga (which is why Korean stuff is Manwha, and American is comic books).
Nymphae
Banned
So horror isn't a movie genre because there is a lot of diversity within the genre?
I'm defining it that way based on visual similarities and styles. You know, if someone said, draw me an anime character, you get a visual in your mind. Big eyes, small pointed nose, lots of spiky hair lol, it's a very well defined look. That's not to say there is no variation, but it's pretty easy to point out the difference between western comics and mangas for example. Both are illustrations drawn on paper in different styles. You can't tell me that you don't see a common style amongst most anime.
I guess I don't understand what you're saying here. I'm saying the defining characteristics of "Western cartoons" and "anime" is their visual styles. There is A LOT of variation within those styles, but not too many people would have trouble pointing out western art vs japanese art.
Are you seriously citing the naive categorizing of things as "anime" by people with no formal training in art or any amount of real knowledge about the industry as support for your argument? Really? Should we start considering production studios as filmmakers because a lot of people are under the impression that "Marvel" and "Warner Brothers" make superhero films instead of particular directors and writers?
People who call Avatar "anime" are either:
1) People who haven't really watched that much anime and were only exposed to the barest surface of the entire field
2) People being sarcastic
Counterpoint:
Admiral Woofington
Member
I... I used to think shonen was a genre.
Any genre needs to earn it's acceptance/respect. To this day Horror can still be considered exploitative nonsense for a very particular audience despite some truly innovative and excellent single films and games.
The same goes for Anime and by extension "Anime Games". If you have a genre like Anime (It's a problem that it even qualifies as a genre, it should be a medium.) that continually reinforces a bunch of stereotypes and tropes that are hard to take seriously, then no. It absolutely doesn't deserve to be taken seriously. I'm not going to put aside wind tunnel boobs and lingerie armor in Kill la Kill to try and analyse it's narrative merit. Even though I get a huge kick out of all the beefcake in that show too.
Singular series and films step outside this categorisation but they are exceptions, doing just that, standing apart.
It's no different for games in that same genre space. You can look deeper, you can take them seriously, but that's on you. The genre hasn't earned it.
The same goes for Anime and by extension "Anime Games". If you have a genre like Anime (It's a problem that it even qualifies as a genre, it should be a medium.) that continually reinforces a bunch of stereotypes and tropes that are hard to take seriously, then no. It absolutely doesn't deserve to be taken seriously. I'm not going to put aside wind tunnel boobs and lingerie armor in Kill la Kill to try and analyse it's narrative merit. Even though I get a huge kick out of all the beefcake in that show too.
Singular series and films step outside this categorisation but they are exceptions, doing just that, standing apart.
It's no different for games in that same genre space. You can look deeper, you can take them seriously, but that's on you. The genre hasn't earned it.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
This is often the case with licensed properties overall. When it works out well, it's awesome (i.e. Arkham Asylum). But more often than not, it's pretty much shovelware.
striferser
Huge Nickleback Fan
Jex
Member
Every dog has its day.
So close and yet so far.
That's actually what it means outside of Japan. In Japan, "anime" just means "animation".
(Similarly, "manga" simply means "comics" in Japan, but outside of Japan, the word will be used for Japanese comics specifically.)
I'd blame ignorance for that one.
if you asked someone internationally to define an American film, chances are they would describe elements of an American blockbuster action film. That would not be indicative of the rich history of American film.
Counterpoint:
Isn't that the anime about an old man constantly building upwards to deal with rising water levels, but digs down and takes a trip through his life? Because that was fucking awesome.
Also related: It drives me insane every time I hear someone claim RBWY or anything like that is anime. It isn't.
Yes.
good first post! welcome to GAF!
Exploratory
Banned
Exactly but with anime games there's so many of em and in DBZs case that property is long done.
I didnt miss your point, I simply disagreed with your absolute statement that the genres you mentioned couldnt be "gateways" based on no other justification than your apparent dislike for them.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Hey now Pokemon is pretty popular.
At best you can claim it's like a metagenre, not like horror but like rock music or action games, or how some places put animation collectively as a genre (and funnily enough I found this.) But really I'd just consider it a significant segment of the medium; animation from Japan; and if anime is a genre then animation on a whole is a genre too with anime as a subgenre that has many of its own, like how heavy metal falls under rock, and metal can further be divided into stuff like symphonic metal.
At any rate, not in the same sense as horror or first person shooters are genres, that's too narrow and isn't appropriate at all for something like animation where trying to pin it as a genre begs claiming other similarly broad genres.
Candescence
Member
Anime isn't a genre nor it is a medium. It's part of the 'animation' medium, and more technically a sub-category of animation. That's pretty much it, arguing that it's a 'genre' or 'medium' is completely asinine.
Well, technically "anime" is just shorthand for animation, so it's technically correct but ignores that anime isn't used that way in English most of the time. But yeah, I agree with what you said most, though I think most people did too, certainly it's not a separate medium from Mickey Mouse or the Simpsons, just a different category of said medium.
La Maison en Petits Cubes.