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[Synbios459]

Now I am still in HS, but all the time I hear people talk about how a college they want to go to is to expensive or they have to work really hard to get scholorships etc. So what if anyone could apply at any college and everything including books, dorms, etc. were free? Do you think it would be better or worse?

 

[demi]

I'd probably go. If I, you know, felt like it.

 

[Gibbles]

I'm in the EU and we get it aaall free. Oh, sweet life. They even pay us to go.

Take that you capitalist pigs.

 

[Nester]

High School isn't all that free either, it's just that a lot of it is paid for by other things such as taxpayers.

I sure don't want to pay for some one elses higher education, I already had to fork out plenty for my own.

 

[carbonbased]

Free? Nothing's free. We'd just be paying it back in the form of overly-high taxes. That, or the quality of universities would drop dramatically.

 

[cubanb]

no, because
1) if everybody went, a college degree would be worth as much as a high school degree. 2)Guess who would have to pay in the long run? Us taxpayers!!!!! also new schools would have to be built, i know the UC's for sure are already getting overcrowded

 

[Gibbles]

Haha, the funny thing is you could probably get free college for all by taking only a couple of percents off your military budget. But I guess attacking countries which names you can't even pronounce is more important than a proper education for your own citizens, right?

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

 

[Christoff Yurievich]

That's nice, I'm glad you contributed.

Personally, I just wish they’d get rid of the retarded “core” class schedule. I am currently a business major, and I have to take an Introduction to Calculus as well as Calc 1 & 2. Anyone know the number of times I am going to need to find the secant of a triangle when I’m working in marketing? Fewer classes would mean a more affordable education. Not quite free, but getting there.

 

[cloudwalking]

Haha, the funny thing is you could probably get free college for all by taking only a couple of percents off your military budget. But I guess attacking countries which names you can't even pronounce is more important than a proper education for your own citizens, right?

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

why are you hating on america.

college shouldn't be free. i don't know about you, but i definitely am going to work harder at something if i'm paying thousands of dollars for it. if college was free, it would just be like an extension of high school.

 

[Rob]

That's nice, I'm glad you contributed.

Personally, I just wish they’d get rid of the retarded “core” class schedule. I am currently a business major, and I have to take an Introduction to Calculus as well as Calc 1 & 2. Anyone know the number of times I am going to need to find the secant of a triangle when I’m working in marketing? Fewer classes would mean a more affordable education. Not quite free, but getting there.

I agree 100%. Whatever your major is, you should only have to take the classes that apply to THAT major. If your major is accounting, why should you have to take creative writing, phys ed, and a foreign language? College is a huge money scam.

 

[Archaix]

I agree 100%. Whatever your major is, you should only have to take the classes that apply to THAT major. If your major is accounting, why should you have to take creative writing, phys ed, and a foreign language? College is a huge money scam.

Couldn't disagree more. College should be about learning, it shouldn't be a glorified trade school.

Personally, I feel one of the bigger problems in university education today is that people are just here to train for a profession.

And, yes, it should be free for everybody. Nobody should be denied an education just because they don't come from a rich family.

 

[MoxManiac]

Considering the quality of my High School, god no.

 

[Memles]

No. College should not be free.

But it should be freakin' less expensive. I'm paying $7500 CDN in tuition a freaking year, it's insanity. It IS the most expensive tuition in the country, but that's no excuse for the overall level of tuition being too high.

 

[Archaix]

No. College should not be free.

But it should be freakin' less expensive. I'm paying $7500 CDN in tuition a freaking year, it's insanity. It IS the most expensive tuition in the country, but that's no excuse for the overall level of tuition being too high.

Just for the sake of comparison, the most expensive tuition in the US is likely around $40,000/year.

 

[NLB2]

no, because
1) if everybody went, a college degree would be worth as much as a high school degree.

Dude, everybody having better education would be nothing but good for the economy as a whole. It might make competition for you harder, but it would certainly raise the productivity of American industry.

 

[Memles]

Just for the sake of comparison, the most expensive tuition in the US is likely around $40,000/year.

Those are private institutions, I would expect that. But these are publically funded schools, and they vary drastically by province. There needs to be serios intervention into the tuition system in Canada in order to get these things lower.

 

[fallout]

Couldn't disagree more. College should be about learning, it shouldn't be a glorified trade school.

No. That's what college is. It's a trade school. Leave the "higher" learning to the universities.

It pisses me off that the universities are gearing more and more towards the "Do this to get a job." kind of attitude. It's incredibly annoying to sit through a class with a bunch of spoiled brats whining about how they'll never need any of what we're learning. Can't you just appreciate it? There's a reason why science majors have to take general education credits (at least, in most places I know you do) ... they broaden your scope of what's out there.

It's like the whole "pursuit of knowledge" thing got thrown out the window somewhere.

 

[Lathentar]

College should not be free. ANY ONE with the proper motivation can get the resources to go to college. I know people who have come from the very bottom of poverty and have gotten numerous scholarships and grants to get them through.

 

[Lathentar]

No. That's what college is. It's a trade school. Leave the "higher" learning to the universities.

Digipen is a Trade School. There is a difference.

 

[Boogie]

No. That's what college is. It's a trade school. Leave the "higher" learning to the universities.

It pisses me off that the universities are gearing more and more towards the "Do this to get a job." kind of attitude. It's incredibly annoying to sit through a class with a bunch of spoiled brats whining about how they'll never need any of what we're learning. Can't you just appreciate it? There's a reason why science majors have to take general education credits (at least, in most places I know you do) ... they broaden your scope of what's out there.

It's like the whole "pursuit of knowledge" thing got thrown out the window somewhere.

I'm a history student. So obviously I am more in the "pursuit of knowledge" camp. That being said, I fear for the day that I graduate, because I feel I'll be fucked when it comes to real career options.

 

[speedpop]

I'm in the EU and we get it aaall free. Oh, sweet life. They even pay us to go.

Take that you capitalist pigs.

Amen, this is what Australia used to be and now they brought in the fucking HECS. I could've become a doctor for $400 but now I have to pay $7,000+??? Fuck off on ya bike!

Then there's the international students who have to pay $14,000 for one semester alone! What a joke.

 

[Kon Tiki]

no, because
1) if everybody went, a college degree would be worth as much as a high school degree

America full of intelligent people? Never happen.

 

[rastex]

But it should be freakin' less expensive. I'm paying $7500 CDN in tuition a freaking year, it's insanity. It IS the most expensive tuition in the country, but that's no excuse for the overall level of tuition being too high.

Looks at $9k bill, no sorry you don't have the highest tuition in the country.

Looks at friend's 19k bill, no sorry even *I* don't. Although Ivey might be in a class of its own.

 

[Memles]

Looks at $9k bill, no sorry you don't have the highest tuition in the country.

Looks at friend's 19k bill, no sorry even *I* don't. Although Ivey might be in a class of its own.

CDN stands for Canadian. For an undergraduate degree in Canada, I am paying the highest fees.

 

[Christoff Yurievich]

If you don't know the difference between calculus and trig, then you probably do need to take it.

well, I blame that on my complete and utter terror of math beyond college algebra. I'm not very good at it and the thought of taking Calculus (even though I obviously don't know what it is about ) doesn't sit well with me.

I agree you should try to learn things and broaden your horizons, but frankly I don't see math as broadening my horizons. I know it's probably irrational but it's just a fear of math that keeps me from enjoying it.

If you can convince me that Calculus isn't that bad, I believe I will go into the next few semesters with a lighter frame of mind.

Another pet peeve I have are the classes that test you on things they have no reason to test you on. If in the coming years I need to know something, I can look it up. On a test, you don't have that luxury as you're required to memorize everything just for the sake of testing.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

 

[WHOAguitarninja]

No. College should not be free.

But it should be freakin' less expensive. I'm paying $7500 CDN in tuition a freaking year, it's insanity. It IS the most expensive tuition in the country, but that's no excuse for the overall level of tuition being too high.

I wish I were so lucky, school for me is 14k and change $US, and I'm in state.

well, I blame that on my complete and utter terror of math beyond college algebra. I'm not very good at it and the thought of taking Calculus (even though I obviously don't know what it is about ) doesn't sit well with me.

I agree you should try to learn things and broaden your horizons, but frankly I don't see math as broadening my horizons. I know it's probably irrational but it's just a fear of math that keeps me from enjoying it.

If you can convince me that Calculus isn't that bad, I believe I will go into the next few semesters with a lighter frame of mind.

Another pet peeve I have are the classes that test you on things they have no reason to test you on. If in the coming years I need to know something, I can look it up. On a test, you don't have that luxury as you're required to memorize everything just for the sake of testing.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

Calculus really isn't that hard. I thought calc 1 was the easiest (material wise) math class I had taken in years. The hardest part of Calc is the algebra you need to get things to simplify to something workable (I never REALLY learned algebra until calc).

The best thing I ever did in calc was to estimate things just by looking at graphs. That helped me understand what was going on much better which made all the concepts and things make MUCH more sense to me. I did this alot and because of that, Calc really makes sense at a gut level to me.

But seriously though...calculus is NOT that hard. If you survived math until now you will undoubtedly be able to handle calculus.

 

[Drozmight]

Maybe for people who actually want to be there. Say if you keep your GPA above a 3.0 or somethin you go for free, but if it goes below you gotta start payin.

 

[border]

CDN stands for Canadian.

$9000 a year for a school that doesn't teach you what CDN stands for. What a ripoff. =P

 

[whytemyke]

Haha, the funny thing is you could probably get free college for all by taking only a couple of percents off your military budget. But I guess attacking countries which names you can't even pronounce is more important than a proper education for your own citizens, right?

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

:lol

Haha... you really shouldn't preach about not being ignorant when you don't even know the facts. We spend 3% of our GDP on our military budget. Cutting a 'few percents' off of that would can our entire military. But, ignorance is strength, right?

Anyways, I was talking to a German guy who was telling me that in Germany he had to pay roughly 1000 'dollars' (which he may have been thinking deutchmarks) just for a license. My point is that there are pros and cons of every country. I think education should be set up like it is in France, (i believe that's where this is) where the people that test the highest get it for free, but everyone else can still go if they pay for it. Just an idea...

 

[kablooey]

If I would've stayed at home for college, I would've more or less been going there for free. In fact, they would've been paying me, because of the scholarship program they have set up back there for anyone with higher than a 3.0 average. So, it depends on where you are.

But of course, I decided to go out of state, and cause my parents to pay out of their asses. Whoops.

 

[Piecake]

Public College should be free. I really dont understand the reasoning behind saying if it is free then a college degree would be worthless. That makes no sense, because making college free just allows poor people easier access to enrolling in a college. If Universities were free, the standards to get in wouldnt be lowered as well. Youd still have meet certain requirements, and certain colleges would have different requirements than others. Nothing would really change besides the fact that it would be free, which would give low income people a much better chance at enrolling in college.

And all you elitists out there, who want to pay a ton of money for a prestigious piece of paper, there is always private colleges. Im sure they will still cost a ton of money.

 

[Lathentar]

Could someone explain how this would theoretically work?

How could the funds be properly distributed across the thousands of public colleges in the United States? Should it be based on size of the school or should some research oriented schools get more money?

Maybe for people who actually want to be there. Say if you keep your GPA above a 3.0 or somethin you go for free, but if it goes below you gotta start payin.

If you can keep a 3.0 and your family is in poverty, its not exactly difficult to get the loans, grants and scholarships to put your way through college.

 

[Loki]

:lol

Haha... you really shouldn't preach about not being ignorant when you don't even know the facts. We spend 3% of our GDP on our military budget. Cutting a 'few percents' off of that would can our entire military. But, ignorance is strength, right?

I'm sure you realize that it is possible to take a percentage of a percentage (or, more accurately, a percentage of an overall expenditure in absolute dollars), and that that's what he meant by his comment, right?


"Strength in ignorance" indeed.

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

You guys who want free college are aware that a major university can cost over one billion a year? No way can taxpayers afford that. Most tuition rates are really low anyway because there's enough donations going back into the school. Without it, public colleges cost the same as private colleges.

 

[maharg]

:lol

Haha... you really shouldn't preach about not being ignorant when you don't even know the facts. We spend 3% of our GDP on our military budget. Cutting a 'few percents' off of that would can our entire military. But, ignorance is strength, right?

Uh what? This is ranking in the top 10 most absurd logical fallacies ever on GAF. And that's saying something.

 

[whytemyke]

Uh what? This is ranking in the top 10 most absurd logical fallacies ever on GAF. And that's saying something.

It's hardly a logical fallacy.

It's a simple matter. In FY04 we've spent roughly $450 billion, according to the CIA World Factbook. Knock a few percentage points off of that-- say, 3% points off of it. You're looking at about 13.5 Billion. Do you all understand how incredibly SMALL an amount of money that really is when being used to implement a program on a national level? You guys can slam me all you want, but ultimately, the saying was obviously said with the assumption that we spend far more on our military than we actually do. So whether you want to chip a few percent of our GDP off the military spending figure, or merely a few percent off the military figure itself, you're not going to have enough money. If it were that easy, Clinton could have done it when he had military spending down to around 2% of our GDP (I believe... not totally sure about that.)

 

[Triumph]

:lol

Haha... you really shouldn't preach about not being ignorant when you don't even know the facts. We spend 3% of our GDP on our military budget. Cutting a 'few percents' off of that would can our entire military. But, ignorance is strength, right?

Anyways, I was talking to a German guy who was telling me that in Germany he had to pay roughly 1000 'dollars' (which he may have been thinking deutchmarks) just for a license. My point is that there are pros and cons of every country. I think education should be set up like it is in France, (i believe that's where this is) where the people that test the highest get it for free, but everyone else can still go if they pay for it. Just an idea...

If I were a mod or Jesus or Emperor or something, you would be taken out back and shot for such an idiotic statement. I mean Christ. Stop and THINK before you post, my man.

But yes, college SHOULD BE FREE. I got into film school at NYU and didn't go because of the expensive out of state tuition, and because I didn't want to go into debt in the sum of tens of thousands of dollars just to get an undergraduate degree.

 

[Incognito]

It should be. I feel bad for my poor 'ol parents. They'll be forking over 20k a term starting in the fall.

Imagine if college were free....the play money laying around...ahhhhhh.

 

[whytemyke]

Nobody is telling me what I've said that is so ignorant and absurd yet. I can back up all I've said so far with certifiable proof. It seems to me that because nobody else can back up what they say, except to call me names, they think I must be wrong.

I was shocked when I read the figures for the first time, too. But, like it or not, thems the facts.

 

[Loki]

It's hardly a logical fallacy.

It's a simple matter. In FY04 we've spent roughly $450 billion, according to the CIA World Factbook. Knock a few percentage points off of that-- say, 3% points off of it. You're looking at about 13.5 Billion. Do you all understand how incredibly SMALL an amount of money that really is when being used to implement a program on a national level? You guys can slam me all you want, but ultimately, the saying was obviously said with the assumption that we spend far more on our military than we actually do. So whether you want to chip a few percent of our GDP off the military spending figure, or merely a few percent off the military figure itself, you're not going to have enough money. If it were that easy, Clinton could have done it when he had military spending down to around 2% of our GDP (I believe... not totally sure about that.)

Err, I'm not commenting on the topic question, but I must point out that the above is not what you originally said, and so it's foolish to try to paint the people "laughing" at you as idiots.


What you say above is not in any way equivalent to your original comment, which was this:

Haha... you really shouldn't preach about not being ignorant when you don't even know the facts. We spend 3% of our GDP on our military budget. Cutting a 'few percents' off of that would can our entire military. But, ignorance is strength, right?

I'm sure you can see the difference; please don't make me point it out explicitly-- just admit that you made a faux pas and move on.

 

[whytemyke]

Well it's a relatively simple mistake to make. I can admit that I misunderstood the original statement as being taking percents of military spending from the GDP versus taking of those numbers off the military budget itself... but c'mon. It's not like the guy actually said "Cut a few percents out of the overall military budget."

Oh well... clearly I understood a different take on the opinion than was intended. But my point still stands that cutting military spending to get said money would be incredibly stupid.


EDIT: Oh fuckin' A... yes he did say that. OK, sorry. I got my panties in a twist at the idea to start flossin' my political shit, heh.

 

[Triumph]

Nobody is telling me what I've said that is so ignorant and absurd yet. I can back up all I've said so far with certifiable proof. It seems to me that because nobody else can back up what they say, except to call me names, they think I must be wrong.

I was shocked when I read the figures for the first time, too. But, like it or not, thems the facts.

Friend... what we're saying is that you took a dumb look at the figures. Say you have one pie, which represents GDP. Then say you have another, smaller yet still big pie that represents all that is spent on America's military. Lastly, you have a mostly empty dish that represents the cost of what it would take to send everyone who wanted to go to college. Now, we're not advocating looking at the military's slice of the GDP pie. That's absurd. But take a look at that military budget pie. Mmmm... it's chock full of expensive and useless shit like the SDI and futuristic planes we'll never need. So take one slice out of that and voila! All Americans can go to school, get smart and figure out how awful and manipulative our Govt. is, change it and usher in a new era of world peace where people like you would think about the idiocy of what they're gonna say before they say/type it.

 

[Loki]

Well it's a relatively simple mistake to make. I can admit that I misunderstood the original statement as being taking percents of military spending from the GDP versus taking of those numbers off the military budget itself... but c'mon.

And yet that is the interpretation that 99% of the people reading that remark would have given it. You didn't. People pointed and laughed in a not-so-meanspirited way. You persisted and cavilled pointlessly. Ergo, you lose.


Seriously though, at least you admitted that you interpreted it wrongly. Props.

It's not like the guy actually said "Cut a few percents out of the overall military budget."

Really?

by taking only a couple of percents off your military budget.

Could've fooled me. Does the word "overall" really impart such a difference in meaning? If so, methinks you parse things a bit too finely for your own good.


EDIT: By the way, I never would have commented if it weren't for your "HAHA d00d, j00 are teh id10t!!!1" attitude towards Gibbles in responding to his initial remark. Let this be a lesson to you: blunders are more likely to go uncriticized if you are civil about things.

 

[impirius]

Haha, the funny thing is you could probably get free college for all by taking only a couple of percents off your military budget. But I guess attacking countries which names you can't even pronounce is more important than a proper education for your own citizens, right?

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

We were fully justified in attacking Irap..

Irax..

Irash..

Irathkjehwkj..

DAMMIT YOU'RE RIGHT

 

[Lathentar]

Can someone tell me the percentage of students and number of students going to college after High School in the US, Canada and European Countries.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

College education is the biggest hustle in the world

 

[CaptainABAB]

Hmmmm....

High School is free yet we are known for having one of the worst High School programs in the world.

College is not free yet we reknown for the overall best higher education program in the world. Enough so, that people come over to this country for our university studies.


Hmmmm....



Some more FACTS...

Total Education Budget...(see Appendix 3)
http://www.ed.gov/about/overview/budget/budget05/summary/05summary.pdf

2003-2004 (Billions):
Subtotal, Elementary and Secondary........................... 501.3
Subtotal, Postsecondary....... 350.8
Total, All Levels.................. 852.1

http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/ArmsTrade/Spending.asp#USMilitarySpending
The U.S. military budget request for Fiscal Year 2005 is $420.7 billion
For Fiscal Year 2004 it was $399.1 billion.
For Fiscal Year 2003 it was $396.1 billion.


So, really is a few percentage of the military really that significant compared to the education budget?

 

[Diablos]

No, because college would then be like community college but worse. That being said, it wouldn't hurt for the price to attend college to go down. Some schools are just crazy with how much they expect people to pay. Even if they aren't, it's still too high IMO.

 

[way more]

3% of our GDP on the Military Industrial Complex is an extermely conservative number. I always hear 5% as the standard.

Should college be free? Yes, the right to education should a standard. Unfortunately it would be labeled as socialism and therefore impractical, or evil if born before the Cold War, by a majority.

 

[whytemyke]

Friend... what we're saying is that you took a dumb look at the figures. Say you have one pie, which represents GDP. Then say you have another, smaller yet still big pie that represents all that is spent on America's military. Lastly, you have a mostly empty dish that represents the cost of what it would take to send everyone who wanted to go to college. Now, we're not advocating looking at the military's slice of the GDP pie. That's absurd. But take a look at that military budget pie. Mmmm... it's chock full of expensive and useless shit like the SDI and futuristic planes we'll never need. So take one slice out of that and voila! All Americans can go to school, get smart and figure out how awful and manipulative our Govt. is, change it and usher in a new era of world peace where people like you would think about the idiocy of what they're gonna say before they say/type it.

What I'm saying is that my look at the figures wasn't dumb at all. The 'smaller yet still big pie' that you're talking about as the American military expenditures isn't as big as you're making it out to be. It's 3.3% of the GDP. The economic figures would not work out. $450 billion a year, the complete estimated military spending, maybe if completely put into the education system, would be enough to fix it all. That's a big maybe. We're talking about the average state getting roughly 10 billion a year to support all their educational institutions, from preschool to grad school. Now, as thin as that's spread now, that is still HEAVILY supplemented by local taxes in various districts around the country to keep the schools working, counted completely from a different source than the ~$9Billion.

To save a lot of math, and a lot of hot air, the simple point that I'm going to make is this: universal higher education would create more problems than it'd cause. Taxes have to be hiked, and most people don't have them to begin with. It'd create incredible parity for jobs in an already unsubstantial job market (for the most part.) So instead of HELPING the economy, you'll be giving more people more education through higher taxes which you won't be able to sustain because there aren't enough higher education jobs right now. Then, even if you did have the jobs, you're neglecting the fact that all businesses, having such a huge market of employees, would not be required to pay the employees what we're used to now, unless you introduce new legislation (which is a whole different mess).

And this is also ignoring all the haughty, capitalist, conservative bullshit about how having class warfare stimulates poor people to try harder at life. Believe me-- I'm a college student now, and I'm going to be leaving university roughly $50,000 in debt, unless I go to graduate school or anything else. You don't have to preach to me about how great universally paid education would be. But you gotta check all angles on things like this.

Not to mention the fact that the military budget would be cut. God knows we don't need to be invading anyone right now. But if you cut the budget too much, while revolutionizing your society in vast amounts (creating more goods, tangible and intangible), you're only leaving yourself open to attack by another power who wants to take by force what we work for. Sure, we may be beyond that whole 'international domination' thing, but if we're not then we could be in a world of trouble.

And don't even get me started on the terrorism security problems relating to a dropped military budget. Just look at Russia for a worst-case scenario (gangs seizing nuclear warheads to sell on the black market).