Simplest Grand Strategy game to get into the genre

L

loganclaws

Plane Escape Torment
Hey GAF,

Seeing as Crusader Kings 2 is on sale right now on Steam, I gave the demo a whirl and my head nearly exploded in the first 15 minutes. I have never played any grand strategy game but I am very curious about the genre. Can you guys give me some advice on which game I should pick up as an introduction to this genre. Is it right to assume that Crusader King 2 and Fallen Enchantress fall under the same genre? I know that Fallen Enchantress is more fantasy, but aside from that, the games are pretty similar correct?
 
Civilization V fits the bill. It eschews a lot of the more complexity of the previous Civ games, making it a lot easier to get into for first timers. They reintroduce some that complexity back in with the DLC packs, so there is room to advance if you feel like it.

Edit. After looking at Wikipedia maybe Civ V isn't considered a Grand Strategy game...
 
Fallen Enchantress is a 4x game, sort of like Master of Magic, which was a fantasy version of Civilization.

Grand Strategy is more like the Paradox games, Europa Universalis, Victoria, Hearts of Iron etc.

Basically the different is that that the map is already discovered, you have to fight over it, sorta like Risk or Axis & Allies (two very simple such games).

I think the Total War series might be simpler for you. It's turn based, so you have time to think, and not as in depth, though you have real time battles which can get complicated, and often need a pretty decent rig to run well.
 
Crusader Kings 2 is already extremely accessible by the standards of the genre. I think Europa Universalis 3 is "simpler" overall, but it's also more obtuse because many systems are not explained, or are explained in confusing ways.

Whatever you do, don't start with Hearts of Iron.
 
Ah ok, so I'm mixing two genres here; the 4X and the Grand Strategy. Would you guys say that it is easier to probably start with a 4X game to learn the basic gameplay that is shared between the two genres (if any?) and then move on to Grand Strategy if I like 4X games?
 
animlboogy said:
Even CK2 has some horrendous tutorials.

I guess that's tip number one: Use wikis and ask for advice in the Paradox thread on the community side. Don't bother with the tutorials. They're good for showing you little tricks with the UI once you have the basics down, I guess.
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The tutes are bad for all of them, but where CK2 shines is the transparency in diplomacy and how most systems you mouse over will pop up to explain why you can't do some certain action. I found the system a lot better explained than other paradox games. The mission conditions in Eu3 and requirements for forming countries in that and Victoria 2 can be very opaque.

loganclaws said:
Ah ok, so I'm mixing two genres here; the 4X and the Grand Strategy. Would you guys say that it is easier to probably start with a 4X game to learn the basic gameplay that is shared between the two genres and then move on to Grand Strategy if I like 4X games?
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Playing Civilization to get into Grand Strategy is like practicing for your driving test by playing with matchbox cars.
 
You've already got the best entry level grand strategy game. The other two you mentioned are 4x games, and completely different in scope and purpose. That said, with those Civ is probably your best bet.

My advice for getting the most out of any Paradox grand strategy game is to ignore all the tiny detail and focus on the big picture, at least to begin with. These are highly complex simulations with a lot of fuzziness. It will be very difficult to see the consequences of some of your interactions in the more highly-detailed parts of the game. That said, most of the data and options available to you are unnecessary until you've become familiar with the broad strokes anyway. With CK2, pick a mid-level family somewhere out of the way and role play it. Play around with marriages and squabbles with other low level lords. As you get comfortable with that stuff you'll be able to delve into the detail as you find you need to.

This general advice works for all of them, from CK2 through to the more complex HOI3 and, my favourite, Viki2.
 
Regardless of what you are doing, you should really play Civ on the PC-Civ 5 is honestly preferred at this point but IV is still an all time classic and is more than playable. Not playing Civ when you have a PC is like not playing Mario if you have a nintendo.

My Paradox game I recommend to newbies is EU3 playing as Spain or Portugal. Just colonize stuff and learn as you go.

People should try out Vicky 2, it doesn't get enough love. It takes geopolitcal dickwaggling to a whole new level.
 
animlboogy said:
...I should get Victoria 2. I like EU3, I just haven't played it recently with 4 on the horizon.
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All of the paradox games have strengths and weaknesses. Victoria combat feels even worse than EU3, somehow. The game is strongly focused on trade an industry but I never felt like they were good, fun systems. And it is super duper difficult to take any significant quantity of territory from civilized countries :(
 
Haha you guys are really paralyzing me with choices! I can feel the deep role playing potential of these games but man do they require a huge time commitment to get over the learning curve. I realize there is no way around it, I just want to make sure I pick the right game to commit to.
 
loganclaws said:
Haha you guys are really paralyzing me with choices! I can feel the deep role playing potential of these games but man do they require a huge time commitment to get over the learning curve. I realize there is no way around it, I just want to make sure I pick the right game to commit to.
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I was totally out of my depth originally. I watched Let's Plays on youtube with expert players to get a feel for how to play at a good level, although sometimes I had to stop and comment on the video to ask how something happened, or look something up on the Paradox wiki pages for more detailed information.

If you want to get into EU3, this is the best resource available for you. Much better than the in-game tutorial, IMO.
 
ThoseDeafMutes said:
All of the paradox games have strengths and weaknesses. Victoria combat feels even worse than EU3, somehow. The game is strongly focused on trade an industry but I never felt like they were good, fun systems. And it is super duper difficult to take any significant quantity of territory from civilized countries :(
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Victoria 2 isn't about conquest though. You can do that, but it's more about colonization, industrialization, liberalization and putting your rivals in positions where they look stupid and get humiliated.

If EU3 is about creating a unique national idea, Vicky 2 is about building a national consensus around those ideals and proving to the rest of the world that your ideals are better than theirs.
 
animlboogy said:
You can start having fun with CK2 an hour in. My personal experience with EU3 was a lot more fumbling around before I was getting to the fun stuff. Whereas CK2 had me throwing my brother in jail and him dying in there (not my goal, oops!), and discovering that my wife hates me and was actively plotting my murder with several other courtiers.
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That sounds like so much fun. I think my problem is that I'm not familiar with the terminology since I'm not too familiar with historical events in that region in that era, well this, and the fact that I never played any game in this genre.
 
Crusader Kings is actually your best bet, honestly. I'm pretty sure there are a couple of decent digital versions of Axis and Allies, which might help.

I remember Sengoku having a decent tutorial, too.
 
I found Civilization 4 more easy to learn than Crusaders King 2.

I found that a more frustrating game to learn than Civilization 4 in lower difficulties. I guess it might not qualify for grand strategy.

Crusader Kings 2 is not an easy game to learn but I guess with some time you will manage.
 
Ok guys, so Civ5 or Crusader Kings 2 first???

Edit: One thing I don't like about the Civ games is how technology progress happens in the game. If I remember correctly, certain nations can have futuristic or modern technology while another nation is still using ancient weapons, etc... It just seems really weird.
 
Wow I really have to dig into CK2.

Where do games like Unity of Command fit in for this discussion? Is that considered more a wargame than strategy?
 
loganclaws said:
Ok guys, so Civ5 or Crusader Kings 2 first???

Edit: One thing I don't like about the Civ games is how technology progress happens in the game. If I remember correctly, certain nations can have futuristic or modern technology while another nation is still using ancient weapons, etc... It just seems really weird.
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This only happens when you are playing on a difficultly well outside your skill level. As long as you are playing on the difficultly level you are comfortable with, this doesn't happen.

re: Civ vs. Pdox games, Civ is a strategy game, Paradox games are strategy simulations. I play both and find that they both have their appeals-Civ is more skill testing, Paradox games have a higher chance of making unpredictable and interesting game states.
 
animlboogy said:
The Republic is the most important one, especially if you want to play AGoT to its fullest potential. It's not crucial.

I personally adore the absolutely retarded Sunset Invasion. Not really recommended unless you want to get drunk and see your midgame turn into an alternate history circus.
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What I mean is, since I am only starting out with this genre, at my level the base game is sufficient, yes? None of the DLCs are game changers, just more content?
 
animlboogy said:
As far as I know, yes. I'm far from being a master of these games, though. From my personal experience starting with the base game and adding expansions as I went, I had more than enough to learn without needing to bolt on more playable content.

The thing you'll probably notice before anything in the base game is that none of the Muslim rulers are playable without the Sword of Islam DLC.
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Yah I already noticed that. Not a big deal at the moment.
 
As a fellow newbie to the genre, I'm just getting into Total War: Shogun 2. It's... A lot to take in. Not unmanageable, but a definite mind fuck at first.

The control it lets you have is addicting, though.
 
Brokun said:
I suddenly want to try a Grand Strategy game.
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Be prepared to lose hours of your life.

I wholeheartedly would recommend EU3. It's the first Grand Strategy game that really got its hooks in me. Take it easy on yourself and play on a lower difficulty your first few games because there is a learning cliff.

Miizy F Baby said:
As a fellow newbie to the genre, I'm just getting into Total War: Shogun 2. It's... A lot to take in.
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Great Strategy game, but not considered "Grand Strategy".

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This is Grand Strategy.
 
For the Paradox grand strats, the order of accessibility goes CK2>EU3>Vicky 2>HoI3.

I've mastered CK2 and Vicky 2. But HoI3 is, thus far, incomprehensible to me.

sibarraz said:
I won a victoria 2 key this last saturday, but don't know how to start
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There a comprehensive starter guide that helps immensely. I'll post it when I get home from work.

The basics I can tell you without the guide are: tax the shit out of the poor strata, half that tax level for mid strata, and don't tax the rich at all. The majority of your population is poor, so there's plenty of money to be had there. 75-85% taxation is good. It leaves a little bit of room for them to advance into mid level jobs and income.

Max education investment to help with research. Check all of your regions and take note of what they primarily produce. Start researching technologies that will improve your output in those areas. That'll give you a huge income boost and allow you to lower taxes a bit on the poor.

You don't tax the rich because you want to make living in your country seem as inviting as possible, so they come live there and build factories...thus increasing your income more.
 
animlboogy said:
Amazing that you consider yourself to have mastered two of their other games, yet still describe HoI3 as "incomprehensible."

That game scares me. :O I still have a lot to learn about just CK2.
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I just can't get my head around theatres, and the roles of HQs.
That's mostly where I fall flat.
 
That is one viable strategy although I tend to play more state-capitalist rather than laissez faire because I don't like not having direct control over what factories are put up and when.
 
HoI3 is not too hard to get into, although I would recommend HoI2 over it any day of the week, especially with some of the mods it has.

The simplest advice I can give the OP is to grab the one that looks the most appealing and play it. Don't be intimidated by the interface or gameplay mechanics. Just play the thing and, most probably, lose. Then figure out what you did wrong, consult the wiki that was posted and try again. Soon it will all begin to click.

But the important thing is to just jump in and start messing around. Don't be afraid to do dumb stuff, cause everyone learns the same way!
 
I don't know if I'd recommend a Paradox game straight out of the gate, even though that deep end jump can be quite rewarding.

I'd recommend some entry level stuff like Making History Gold or something. Not an overwhelming experience, has good UI and introduces a lot of the managerial tenets of the genre.

Otherwise, just keep checking out those AARs, guides and don't be afraid of letting a game play out - even if you end up in a bad position. These games are the great sandbox experiments, with the greatest of defeats as equally interesting to see snowball as the most surgical or insidious victories.
 
Damn, I want to try Crusader Kings 2 again (or any other for that matter) but they are bloody hard to get into. I love the maps and such, but I miss the transparency of the Total War games or Civilization games.
 
ThoseDeafMutes said:
CK2 is babby level, c'mon son.
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Come now, it's fun to make crazy scenarios. Like marrying Persians until your family until you're able to create the Sultanate of Wales, despite being culturally Welsh and Catholic.

Long live Sultan Llywelyn ap Gruffydd!

danthefan said:
Are any of the CK2 DLCs worth it?
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The ones that add gameplay mechanics, very much so. So, The Republic, The old Gods, the Legacy of Rome and the Sword of Islam are all must have. You can also get Sunset invasion if you like, which essentially does the same as the Mongol Invasion...except aztecs, and they come from the west instead of the east.

Don't bother with the soundtracks, faces and crests unless you really, really want to be immersed.
 
danthefan said:
Are any of the CK2 DLCs worth it?
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The content packs, yes. Sword of Islam, Legacy of Rome, The Republic. The Old Gods just came out, we're not sure if it's any good yet. You can get them all for really cheap atm, I posted a link on the last page to the complete pack for 15 dollars. All DLCs except the latest.

Otherwise, the ones mentioned prior, plus maybe "Ruler Designer" if you want to make custom characters to start with. Sunset Invasion could be neat but don't think you need it - it's an alt. history scenario where the Native Americans invade Europe.
 
This game made me look up CK2 on steam and see that it's only $10. I'm definitely buying it and trying it out. I haven't played anything in the genre, but I'm a huge fan of Civ (I have over 400 hours played on Civ 5).
 
KingK said:
This game made me look up CK2 on steam and see that it's only $10. I'm definitely buying it and trying it out. I haven't played anything in the genre, but I'm a huge fan of Civ (I have over 400 hours played on Civ 5).
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Amazon has 15 for ALL DLC with the base game.
 
Anyone interested in grand strategy should check out the Paradox strategy thread! http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=466864

I am of the opinion that EU3 is the easiest Paradox grand strategy title to get into to. No crazy army OOB like in HoI3, no citizen micromanagement like in Vicky2 and no having to please dozens of vassals like in CK2. The issue is EU4 is coming out soon so it will be out of date in a few months. Currently playing through my last game of EU3 before EU4 as Trinacria. It has been tough going but Italy is slowly bring brought under my control, Constantinople is mine, and I have colonized most of the Caribbean most of what is now the Mid-Atlantic United States. Having a lot of fun with the game, put in many hours since I started this campaign a few weeks ago.

The thing about EU3, however, is that (in my opinion) you need mods to make it truly fun. I can play the other Paradox games without mods for many hours but I need to use mods to play EU3. That being said I have put in more hours into EU3 than all of Paradox's other offering combined.

I also like what an earlier poster said about role playing. It does a lot for me. I find I am not having as much fun when I am min-maxing things and getting very technical about the game.

Get into the genre! I did last year and it now takes up most of my gaming time.
 
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