Supermanisdead
Member
jesus christ at this thread. what the fuck is going on????
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Slovakia ready to receive Syrian refugees but only if they are non-muslim.
- Thread starter ElTorro
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Souldestroyer Reborn
Banned
Neither or us want them so the simple answer is let no more in.
We're not duty bound to do anything. The overall feeling in the UK is that we shouldn't be taking any more people, therefore we shouldn't. It's as simple as that.
The UK as a whole is in enough of a state right now with what we have never mind taking on board more.
Also to answer your question, because it's always England ie London who decides to get involved, therefore when you fuck up, you can deal with your own mess.
There are countries in Europe where 15% to 30% of the population is openly supporting extremist parties that have an open anti-muslim agenda. This shouldn't be a surprise for anybody. And that's the openly expressed extremism, on top of that there is a lot of polite xenophobia hidden in the conservative area of the public.
hobblygobbly
Member
It depends on their reasoning of "they won't feel at home". It's either a facade/excuse to hide the discrimination or it's legitimately because they feel they can't provide/offer a Muslim life for Muslims.
To expand on that, Slovakia has very, very little Muslims, I think it's something < 0.1% of the country's population. It also has no mosques. This also means that food and other Muslim cultural elements are non-existent in the country.
For many Muslims their religion is very important to them and these would be expectations that would want to be met and I don't think the government is willing to spend money other than your general refugee/humanitarian costs to build mosques and open the opportunity for a Muslim life to be possible, especially considering it's refugees (i.e not permanent residents that are expected to become citizens at some point), bringing in imports, etc to facilitate a Muslim-style life.
If a country like Germany used such reasoning it wouldn't fly and would be obvious because Germany can offer a Muslim-style life (due to the decades of Turks in Germany), there are mosques, you can live a Muslim life in Germany due to cultural integration naturally (no humanitarian crisis drove the ability to have a Muslim-style life in Germany).
That's just not the case in Slovakia and in order to offer a Muslim-style life in Slovakia the government would have to face much more social and financial challenges in order to create that and I don't think they're willing to do that simply for what is seemed as temporary residence.
It's either that or an excuse to hide their discrimination.
To expand on that, Slovakia has very, very little Muslims, I think it's something < 0.1% of the country's population. It also has no mosques. This also means that food and other Muslim cultural elements are non-existent in the country.
For many Muslims their religion is very important to them and these would be expectations that would want to be met and I don't think the government is willing to spend money other than your general refugee/humanitarian costs to build mosques and open the opportunity for a Muslim life to be possible, especially considering it's refugees (i.e not permanent residents that are expected to become citizens at some point), bringing in imports, etc to facilitate a Muslim-style life.
If a country like Germany used such reasoning it wouldn't fly and would be obvious because Germany can offer a Muslim-style life (due to the decades of Turks in Germany), there are mosques, you can live a Muslim life in Germany due to cultural integration naturally (no humanitarian crisis drove the ability to have a Muslim-style life in Germany).
That's just not the case in Slovakia and in order to offer a Muslim-style life in Slovakia the government would have to face much more social and financial challenges in order to create that and I don't think they're willing to do that simply for what is seemed as temporary residence.
It's either that or an excuse to hide their discrimination.
Miles Quaritch
Member
When the hatred for them' meets a morally questionable but apparently understandable decision about allowing 'them' asylum.
Gotta love dehumanising people.
Goro Majima
Kitty Genovese Member
At what point do we intervene in Syria? Seems like the long term solution is a stable Syria instead of trying to integrate millions upon millions of refugees.
I think governments should have a right to deny people with odious opinions, even if those opinions aren't illegal. Neo-Naziism may be legal in the United States, but that doesn't mean we should have to accept Russian fascist immigrants.
Good question. Western intervention in the region has traditionally caused more problems than it's solved. I think the best option might just be significant support given to Iran and the Kurds (through embedded troops and monetary aid) to destroy the Islamic State and create borders based on cultural and religion rather than arbitrary nationalism.
I appreciate your honesty, but the truth is we'll have to take some people in, and those that do come in should go to Scotland/Wales if at all possible. Wasn't the SNP leader (who's name currently escapes me right now... Nicola Sturgeon!) saying the government should be doing more for immigrants? Well, she can sort something out up there.
112km²~ of non-England UK land (Scotland/Wales/Northern Ireland) hosts 11m people, while the 135km² of England hosts 53m. The UK has to help, but England can't shoulder the burden alone.
That's like saying someone is a homophobe because he/she doesn't want to sleep with someone with the same gender.
SolidusDave
Member
Huh.
I guess that would make for a good immigration test?
If you want to live in a western country, you should be able to NOT want nor actively try to kill people (including citizens of the country you're asking for asylum) just because someone ripped out pages of your fantasy book of choice.
Otherwise there are quite a few other countries that would actually do the killing for you.
edit: it seems that place is pretty overcrowded which can easily lead to additional tensions though.
paradise_circus
Member
A little bit of "clarification"
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/08/20/uk-europe-migrants-slovakia-idUKKCN0QP1H720150820
If Muslim asylum-seekers chose Slovakia, they would not be discriminated against, he [spokesman Ivan Netik] said. But Slovakia would not take in refugees who did not want to stay in the country but intended to move on.
"We do not discriminate against any religion, but it would be a false, insincere solidarity if we took people...who don´t want to live in Slovakia," he said.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/08/20/uk-europe-migrants-slovakia-idUKKCN0QP1H720150820
If Muslim asylum-seekers chose Slovakia, they would not be discriminated against, he [spokesman Ivan Netik] said. But Slovakia would not take in refugees who did not want to stay in the country but intended to move on.
"We do not discriminate against any religion, but it would be a false, insincere solidarity if we took people...who don´t want to live in Slovakia," he said.
So what you are saying is that a country like England can not take more refugees than the third smallest state of germany? If England is struggling to cope what do you think this one town is doing? We have refugee homes plotting up everywhere (I can reach atleast 2 within 10 minutes). We have some refugees sleeping in tents because we can't find homes quick enough.
JimmyRustler
Member
This news just reflects the problems many european countries have with muslims that are already in the country... So naturally they do not want more - and you can see how severe the problem is when even war refugees are sorted out.
Hate me and all but through personal experience I am just of the opinion that Muslim and Christan culture doesn't fit together really well.
Miles Quaritch
Member
I'm interested, What has your personal experience been with Muslims?
Denton
Member
I am from Czechland, we used to be one country with Slovakia. The attitudes towards Islam are 100% negative here. Nobody I know is positive towards accepting muslim immigrants. It's combination of things, like:
- country being 80+% atheist, knowing what Koran has to say about nonbelievers
- seeing atrocities done in the name of Islam every other day on the news
- seeing the number of rapes and general crime being perpetrated by immigrants in Sweden and the like
- seeing stuff like atheist bloggers being regularly hacked to death by machetes in Bangladesh
- seeing people getting decapitated in Islamic state
- seeing statistics from Pew research like the amount of muslims supporting killing apostates, instituting Sharia etc
People see being against Islam as common sense here. And it is of course true that most people don't know many muslims personally.
On the other hand, people seem to have no problem with accepting people from Ukraine, Vietnamese are accepted with open arms etc.
- country being 80+% atheist, knowing what Koran has to say about nonbelievers
- seeing atrocities done in the name of Islam every other day on the news
- seeing the number of rapes and general crime being perpetrated by immigrants in Sweden and the like
- seeing stuff like atheist bloggers being regularly hacked to death by machetes in Bangladesh
- seeing people getting decapitated in Islamic state
- seeing statistics from Pew research like the amount of muslims supporting killing apostates, instituting Sharia etc
People see being against Islam as common sense here. And it is of course true that most people don't know many muslims personally.
On the other hand, people seem to have no problem with accepting people from Ukraine, Vietnamese are accepted with open arms etc.
Souldestroyer Reborn
Banned
Yeah that was Nicola Sturgeon, of which I support many of SNP's policies, but not their immigration ones.
Scotland/Wales also have a massive amount of land which is uninhabitable though
I agree that more should be done to help them yes, but by help I mean aid and doing more to try and broker peace in the ME, not open the floodgates and let everyone in.
The stress on the UK housing market, job market, NHS, Benefits system etc is just too much right now.
Plus lets not kid ourselves here, people are scared that by letting more immigrants in, some of the bad ones could slip through. I mean just look at the bad eggs that were actually brought up in the UK and what they believe/want to do to the UK.
That doesn't sit right with a lot of people. Why come here, accept our help and kindness, just to hate us?
The bad minority ruins it for the majority. That goes for just about any scenario or situation ever in regards to anything.
It kind of is. What's the problem? It's just sleeping after all. We are all a little hypocrites. All is fine unless it's at our doorstep. That was the intent of my post. I disagree about the measure ideologically speaking but in reality it isn't unreasonable in a crisis situation. Not everything is either black or white.
excelsiorlef
Member
Gentleman Jack
Member
Why is it only a crisis if it' s a Muslim refugee, again?
Honestly, I don't know. I'm not educated enough on the matter to come up with a solution to a problem that's currently stumping some of Europe's brightest political minds.
All I know is, from both news & personal experiences of those around me, that getting any sort of social help/care in the West Midlands is a fucking nightmare as-is, and I cannot see that changing for the better in the near future, with or without immigration. Fuck it, the more the merrier, let's all sink together haha.
Canis lupus
Member
What a shit comment.
Turkey has taken nearly 2 MILLION Syrian refugees, Libanon has over 1 million. How much does the entire European Union have? Around 100k. Educate yo self before criticizing others and show compassion to fellow human beings no matter their religion.
That's taking it too far, the people that champion refugees don't even live within earshot of em to have a friendly cup o tea unfortunately. It's just to far to take public transport from their gated communities and white (liberal) enclaves. Plus the cafés usually suck in those areas of town.
Miles Quaritch
Member
What?
What what? What's the problem with just sleeping with a gay person if nothing happens?
The Syrian and Libyan crisis are quite exceptional. The number of refugees is greater than usual.
When you say people, you're talking about the 1.57 billion Muslims right? Because all of them have at least committed an atrocious act at least one fucking time or are willing to, amirite.
Not even going to comment on the ignorant last point holy shit.
If you think that accepting refugees is the same as giving up all privacy I can't help you.
Enosh
Member
are they getting permanent citizenship and homes provided by the government along with healthcare, schooling, welfare etc or are they thrown into camps and thrown back when/if the situations improves?
JimmyRustler
Member
And what would be the point of that? You just say "well, that's just isolated cases man..."
Lets just say that I had my share of experiances - and many of my friends growing up were acutally muslims.
excelsiorlef
Member
That's my big concern too. There is a lot of evidence strongly suggesting that the refugee crises will only become much larger and much worse in the coming decades. The global population will continue to grow while climatic changes will lead to more drought and famines.
How will we deal with that, if we can't even deal well with the current crisis? Elect right-wingers and shot everyone who approaches our borders?
Miles Quaritch
Member
No, I'm genuinely interested in those experiences. Whether they are isolated incidents or not, I'd still like to hear about them.
Yeah. I really believe we should do something. like once Lazaro Cardenas did for all those refugees from Spain in their civil war time.
gutter_trash
Exactly what it says on the tin.
Why?
Immigration has brought some benefits, but in most European states it's been handled with very little care and almost no focus on integration. Couple this with gut sentiment that the continent is getting too crowded, with housing costs rising sharply edging people and their kids out of the market... I'm sure almost nobody here wishes these people harm, but at the same time I don't think it's unreasonable for Europeans to desire to live among people without a gulf of a culture gap.
I dunno man the Koran is pretty vague on the subject of unbelievers...
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"
Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."
Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority"
Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah"
Dozens more, plus plenty of lines from the Hadith, including direct quotes from Mohammed:
Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us"
Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 992: - "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah."
If find this religious lunacy disgusting too, and I would not give anyone citizenship or a permanent residence permit who subscribes to these believes and rejects liberal-democratic values. But (1) we are not talking about voluntary migrants here, we are talking about refugees, who are fleeing from instability and, in parts, from the very Islamistic lunacy that you are pointing at; and (2), thankfully, not all people who identify as Muslims subscribe to these believes. And even less would want to actively implement them, especially in host countries. So while I fully acknowledge the problem of Islamism, I don't see it as a particularly relevant aspect when talking about these refugees. As I wrote, we can see that as an opportunity to infect these people with a liberal-democratic mindset, especially the younger generation.
And just as a side-note, the few Syrians that I know personally are not Islamists or even conservative Muslims in any way.
Goddamn...
I wish the goverment of my country (Brazil) could send some air force planes to the europe to bring some refugees to live here.
Yeah, I know we have social problems and it's not like our economy is strong as it was some years ago, but we have a lot of space and don't have any problem with muslims. In fact, we have a very large muslim community here in Rio de Janeiro and specialy in São Paulo.
These people just want a place to live in peace with their families. Some of them are very talented and hard work professionals, it would be beneficial to everyone.
I wish I could live to see the day when we all are seeing first as humans beeings independent of our beliefs.
I wish the goverment of my country (Brazil) could send some air force planes to the europe to bring some refugees to live here.
Yeah, I know we have social problems and it's not like our economy is strong as it was some years ago, but we have a lot of space and don't have any problem with muslims. In fact, we have a very large muslim community here in Rio de Janeiro and specialy in São Paulo.
These people just want a place to live in peace with their families. Some of them are very talented and hard work professionals, it would be beneficial to everyone.
I wish I could live to see the day when we all are seeing first as humans beeings independent of our beliefs.
Miles Quaritch
Member
It's always a fun party when the Quranic verses come out to play.
Gentleman Jack
Member
That doesn't answer my question. They're allowing non-muslim refugees, why is it only a crisis for the muslim ones?
BlazingDarkness
Member
Europe has a problem with Islam.
If immigrants were to travel and assimilate into a country as any other citizen, I don't think there would be any issues. But the issue is that Islam, for some, is not compatible with Western values, so lots of tensions arise, because some immigrants don't adapt to the country, but instead retain those Islamic views which are fundamentally against those of much of Western society. Doesn't help that shit like ISIS continues to confound the negative perception of Islam.
I'm constantly bombarded with messages like this in media. Reality is though that I never see these problems and that the kids that cause the most issues are generally quite adapted to western society. They do tend to be poor and stuck between the conservative world of their parents and the liberal western society which has caused issues with crime. But they're rarely devout muslims.
BlazingDarkness
Member
Yeah, most of the damage comes from the media.
Coverage of ISIS and all of these atrocities such as Charlie Hebdo attack are putting fear of Islam, and thus, Muslims, into the general population.
Plus again, Islamic views of things such as homosexuals etc are fundamentally contrasting Western attitudes, so of course there are tensions caused by this.
The main difference here being that we are talking about refugees from war and terror zones, not normal immigrants. People desperate to flee under any circumstances and they are already in Europe and more will come. You can debate how much you want on the Islam and so, but that won't solve the crisis. And blaming the refugees won't solve it either. Unless you intend to kill them all or send them back (which in the current situation is kind of the same) you should rather turn the hate towards the governments who instead of trying to find solutions are stuck in the never ending electoral campaigns. And no, your next door extremist doesn't have a solution either, but is smart enough to gain from cultivating your fears.
I just don't get it. We get lots of immigrants in Canada and don't have these problems. Canada's culture is derived from Europeans so I don't understand what is different. As far as I know there isn't much "integration" here. I've seen plenty of people just show up and start looking for work.
There are plenty of Muslim immigrants in my city and throughout the country. I'm sure there are plenty in the U.S. as well. I haven't heard of these problems in North America. I feel like this "integration" thing is a problem Europe has created for itself.
We get it, you hate Muslims. Now, could you stop trying to derail the thread?
OverBlood 3
Banned
Also could they all be white please?
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