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So why did Pikmin bomb?
- Thread starter Synbios459
- Start date
1. Pikmin bombed?
2. I could smack so many of you.
3. Cultural differences does not equal 'we invited dumbshits to the game party". Cultural differences is how we draw eyes differently, certain injokes and eating sushi instead of hotdogs. Male insecurity over multi-colored oompa loompas is not a cultural difference and was never a problem for videogames being accepted until recently.
2. I could smack so many of you.
3. Cultural differences does not equal 'we invited dumbshits to the game party". Cultural differences is how we draw eyes differently, certain injokes and eating sushi instead of hotdogs. Male insecurity over multi-colored oompa loompas is not a cultural difference and was never a problem for videogames being accepted until recently.
It was dead easy to finish well before the 30 days in the first game. Not much urgency in that. Besides, the 2nd one focused on the strategy, planning, and micromanagement, which arguably is what Pikmin was all about. Moreso, Pikmin 2 REFINED those qualities. The 30 day time limit was terribly contrived.
Thats exactly how I felt playing Pikmin 2.
In Pikmin 1 you had to collect the parts in 30 days or die, thats motivation. In Pikmin 2 you get a few days in and he says "oh don't worry we only owe the money to our sister company, take as long as you want". That sirs, removes any motivation.
Well, in that case, let me share my Pikmin experience. I was incredibly disappointed before the Gamecube launched, because IGN revealed that the game could be completed in 6-7 hours. Pikmin didn't even need to exist. The sequel does everything the first game should have, and then some
Time limits are the most annoying and archaic gameplay element that exist. To base an entire game on a time limit that fails the player ultimately ruins the game. That's why you'll find few uses of the timer in today's games. It sucks, especially in Pikmin. Games are short enough without having to shut down on you.
Absolutely, I agree. The 30 day limit is easy to beat but the strategy and planning required was minimal. These elements had to be downplayed just a bit so the 30 day limmit could be realized. Since they removed the limit in Pikmin 2, you are able to focus more on your strategy, planning and efficient use of your ever loyal Pikmin. Still, both games are great.Mejilan said:
Nah, there I disagree. The first was great for its time, but in hindsight it seems more a proof of concept. I agree with others who stated that the 2nd completely replaced the first. Unlike most games, Pikmin 1 is a game I'll never play again thanks in whole part to its sequel. I don't regret getting the original in the least, but it's totally obsolete to me now in ways most games don't ever become.
Speevy said:
Except in Pikmin, it actually fit the game. It's called life support. Limited food. Limited air. Ever seen Space Camp?
In my opinion, it was a HUGE disservice to Pikmin to remove that element and not replace it with something as equally motivating. Pikmin 1 said "save your life." Pikmin 2 said "collect junk." Pikmin 2 was a huge step backwards.
The Faceless Master
Member
lol, wtf... the NUMBER ONE THING people complained about in Pikmin 1 was the 30 day limit!
now people are complaining that it's gone?
now people are complaining that it's gone?
I thought Pikmin was pretty good, and it was a game could actually enjoy while relaxing. I guess if I paid $50 for it, I might not have been satisfied, but at $20 or $30, I felt it I got my money's worth.
That being said, I haven't bought Pikmin 2 yet, and I doubt I'll ever play Pikmin again since I found all the parts my first time through.
That being said, I haven't bought Pikmin 2 yet, and I doubt I'll ever play Pikmin again since I found all the parts my first time through.
AltogetherAndrews
Member
Story is irrelevant to a game such as Pikmin, that much is true. What is relevant, and what is relevant to a majority of games regardless of genre, is purpose. If there's nothing to care about, then there is nothing to carry the gameplay. This isn't Tetris.
Odysseus said:
So despite the fact that the sheer amount of content in Pikmin 2 destroys the first game, and it has better graphics, and it has multiplayer, you still think the lack of "urgency" did the game in?
Then let me ask you this. Under what contrived scenario could they have brought the time limit back? And of course, it couldn't have been just 7 days, since there were so many more areas to explore.
EDIT: "Captain Olimar, listen. There are more areas now, so that means more oxygen. Take a few weeks more. Then you die!"
You're absolutely right. While the first game was great, the second one expanded on it and refined it in so many ways, it almost seems that the first one was unnecessary. Still, the first one was great but there is such a huge level of improvement with the second title. I can respect the first Pikmin title, but after playing the second one, it would be very hard to go back.Mejilan said:
Speevy said:
I didn't say that they had to bring the time limit back, but merely to provide a reason to keep playing, to get to the end. In the first game, it was to save your own skin, and it involved a time limit. In the second game, it was to repay your employer's debt. Color me disinterested. Multiplayer? Who cares. Graphics? Meh. Give me a reason to play. Pikmin 1 had it. Pikmin 2 didn't. That's my opinion.
Odysseus said:
It's been explained. It was a contrived implementation of an unnecessary and archaic mechanic.
Yet the sequel retained the truly important daily time limit. You were still pressured to finish that last piece before nightfall, or risk losing effort and Pikmin, possibly having to redo certain aspects of the environmental manipulation.
The fun was in the inherent strategy involved in knowing which Pikmin to choose (5 types now, versus the 3 originally), how many to take, and how to split them up (what with Olimar and his brother). That, and, of course, not losing too many in the bigger areas and tougher battles the sequel afforded.
JoshuaJSlone
Member
I disagree there. Strategy generally matters less in Pikmin 2, since you don't have to make as much of each day. It just doesn't matter as much if one screws up and loses dozens of Pikmin, since you have an infinite number of days you could spend just making more Pikmin.Ironclad_Ninja said:
Say I manage to get one item successfully, but miss getting the second one back to the ship on time because of an unexpected loss of Pikmin before time runs out. If this is Pikmin 1, I'll definitely replay the day to see if I can do better the second time around. If this is Pikmin 2 I can just go on to the next day and only have to focus on the second item, because time doesn't matter.
The underground areas bring a different limiting aspect in that you have to go through some unknown levels with only the Pikmin you bring in and can't grow more while you're down there, but in a pinch you can still bail out and skip through the earlier floors relatively easily the next time around.
Rival camps united by Pikmin. But really, there have been two camps on this from Day 1. I guess we've both got our way once, though.The Faceless Master said:
Yeah, but that was also a late Japanese N64 release, so it's a bit iffy as to how we count that.Speevy said:
To me Pikmin 1 and 2 were both time management games. Even without the 30 days, you still had so much time within the 'day' to complete something. PC RTS games consist of spending time building and building till you're ready to fight. You do that in Pikmin, you won't have time to fight.
Digital Dark World
Member
Nintendo should release a more "mature" version of the Pikmin gameplay with thousands of samurai warriors fighting in feudal Japan. A bit like the real-time battles of Shogun: Total War, except that you are directly controlling a commanding officer in battle.
Of course, they should still release real Pikmin games for the DS and Revolution as well. I'd really like Nintendo to make either a 2D or cel-shaded DS Pikmin game. And the Revolution version should definitely have online features, like huge online campaigns similar to the single-player campaign. There's still so much potential in the Pikmin franchise that I'm actually more excited about the thought of next-gen Pikmin than next-gen Zelda/Mario.
Of course, they should still release real Pikmin games for the DS and Revolution as well. I'd really like Nintendo to make either a 2D or cel-shaded DS Pikmin game. And the Revolution version should definitely have online features, like huge online campaigns similar to the single-player campaign. There's still so much potential in the Pikmin franchise that I'm actually more excited about the thought of next-gen Pikmin than next-gen Zelda/Mario.
I can only tell you why I (somewhat non-hardcore gamer, regular consumer) didnt buy it.
It looks like a good game and its on my to-buy list, but its way down. and in fact it will never be purchased at full price. Nintendo obviously haven't sold me fully on this concept, it does look appealing, but I'm not spending £40 on this type of game. Whats more in the UK (at least in my city) Nintendo games almost never go on sale, and if they do, its certainly not the good ones.
So while I'm fully clued up about Pikmin and all things gamecube, Pikmin was never gonna be purchased at that price. The average consumer who doesn't read loads of gaming publications etc isn't gonna go anywhere near Pikmin.
(Perception + price) x presentation = missed opportunity?
Soemthing like Advance Wars though is rated as one of the best games of all time. Maybe its the difference between what a handheld game is worth vs what a console game is worth and what I want from either one.
It looks like a good game and its on my to-buy list, but its way down. and in fact it will never be purchased at full price. Nintendo obviously haven't sold me fully on this concept, it does look appealing, but I'm not spending £40 on this type of game. Whats more in the UK (at least in my city) Nintendo games almost never go on sale, and if they do, its certainly not the good ones.
So while I'm fully clued up about Pikmin and all things gamecube, Pikmin was never gonna be purchased at that price. The average consumer who doesn't read loads of gaming publications etc isn't gonna go anywhere near Pikmin.
(Perception + price) x presentation = missed opportunity?
Soemthing like Advance Wars though is rated as one of the best games of all time. Maybe its the difference between what a handheld game is worth vs what a console game is worth and what I want from either one.
Attack You
Member
etiolate said:
<3
Also, you people hatin' on time limits... I'm going to make it a point to punch some elderly woman square in the face tomorrow, and blame you. That'll be on your heads.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
First of all, to me, a good gameplay is all I need to play a game ^^. Second, if you play Pikmin 2 you feel a bit rushed, because days are counted. At least I didn't want my task to take more than 30 days (I mean collecting everything). So I indeed had to do more multi tasking than I ever had to do in Pikmin 1. Having two playable characters (Louie and Olimar) really helps making the game fast and letting the player play in any way he wanted. Slowly and collecting only one thing at a time and then concentrating on the next thing or trying to get as many things in a given time of one "day" as possible.
What hindered Pikmin from being sold really good is the game itself. First of all there's the presentation. Pikmin feels absolutely strange because of the music, the realistic graphics of the planet and the cute comic-like characters in it. It is a feeling I never had playing any other game, it's really unique. Then there's the gameplay a mixture of action-adventure like puzzles and rts management. It isn't the typical RTS nor any other genre's typical game, it's a totally unique game experience overall, without being brutal and thus it didn't have as much success as it should have had.
What hindered Pikmin from being sold really good is the game itself. First of all there's the presentation. Pikmin feels absolutely strange because of the music, the realistic graphics of the planet and the cute comic-like characters in it. It is a feeling I never had playing any other game, it's really unique. Then there's the gameplay a mixture of action-adventure like puzzles and rts management. It isn't the typical RTS nor any other genre's typical game, it's a totally unique game experience overall, without being brutal and thus it didn't have as much success as it should have had.
GaimeGuy said:
No I haven't played AW or Pikmin. Strategy games do generally bore/irritate me so I wouldn't go out and buy one instead of a game that actually appeals to me, and there's a long list of games on Cube and GBA that appeal to me more than Pikmin and AW. But you know, if you want to buy me a copy of Pikmin I'll try it out for you
Maybe the Gamecube just doesn't have the type of userbase where a high percentage of users will consider buying a top strategy game over a reasonably good action game?
DieNgamers
Member
Please read this great article:http://www.cube-europe.com/news.php?nid=8096
The whole universe of Pikmin has some great potential (for future projects). Some people don't see how "deep" this game really is (not only the gameplay).
The whole universe of Pikmin has some great potential (for future projects). Some people don't see how "deep" this game really is (not only the gameplay).
ToyMachine228
Member
I love both Pikmin and Pikmin 2. It's probably the most charming new franchise I played all generation.
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
can someone spoil the ending of pikmin 2 for me? I didn't make it to see all the movies before I sold my games systems. I repayed the debt but there is much more after that.
catfish said:
After you repay the debt you have a funny video of Olimar realizing he forgot *something* back on earth... and so you go back to collect everything else and save Louie.
Also, Louie was controlling the final bad guy.
Also, Louie was the reason the company went bankrupt in the first place.
Also, Louie was controlling the final bad guy.
Also, Louie was the reason the company went bankrupt in the first place.
Odysseus said:
I agree.
There was a sense of urgency to the original Pikmin. You really had to think and work quickly.
Pikmin 2 lacked that sense of impending doom. You could spend days collecting berries, building up your forces, and finding the perfect way to solve puzzles without losing a single Pikmin.
A few more flaws for Pikmin 2 -- I didn't really like the dungeons. A lot of them were simply problematic because of the confined spaces and spotty camera control. I'd take two steps and have to readjust the camera, then take two more and do the same. In a game requiring quick reflexes and good control of your armies, this was problematic. The collection aspect was certainly a little weird, too, in that some items improved the main characters. It seemed incredibly silly you could gain a "super-punch" for Olimar and company -- the whole point of the game is these tiny spacemen control Pikmin to do their bidding. Why the heck do they need to super-punch?
Anyway, it's an unpopular opinion, but I think Pikmin outdoes its sequel.
Oh, and directly on topic: Neither Pikmin game bombed. It's absurd to think a video game needs to sell 1 million copies (or even 500,000) for it to be successful.
Pikmin 2 is the greatest most intuitive RTS ever created, i think its the subject matter that didnt appeal to people. I think the same game with different coating could have sold better.
I hope they make a DS version. RTS games play even better on a touch screen than even with a mouse.
I hope they make a DS version. RTS games play even better on a touch screen than even with a mouse.
I enjoyed the first one, enjoyed the second, but can't help but feel that both kind of petered off for me (Both were left unfinished, actually). In the case of Pikmin 2, once I reached the 10,000 mark I just kind of stopped playing, realizing that only dungeons were awaiting me. I, for one, couldn't stand the bulk of the dungeons, as it seemed to take out the whole puzzle aspect of it entirely. It became more about the battling, which I really can't say was my favourite part at all. They were still fun, really, but having like 3-5 of them left after "beating the game" really didn't make me want to head for the final boss.
Pikmin 2 bombed because it wasn't really a sequel, but a replacement as others say. It didn't continue a story, reunite gamers with their favourite character or add some HUGE new dimension to it's gameplay. It refined the original in every way, made it quite better and added some new depth to the title...but to the everyday gamer it was more of the same. It's a pity it did not perform better, but it simply was too much of a gamer's improvement rather than a casual gamer's improvement.
Pikmin 2 bombed because it wasn't really a sequel, but a replacement as others say. It didn't continue a story, reunite gamers with their favourite character or add some HUGE new dimension to it's gameplay. It refined the original in every way, made it quite better and added some new depth to the title...but to the everyday gamer it was more of the same. It's a pity it did not perform better, but it simply was too much of a gamer's improvement rather than a casual gamer's improvement.
This thread lacks the sound defense of Amir0x.
I completed Pikmin, and have almost finished Pikmin 2, and while I found both games to be brilliant in concept and full of originality, I honestly didn't have loads of fun playing either one. Like most, I am enjoying the second more than the first (it just feels like a fuller, more complete experience) and there were moments where I really enjoyed it, but I highly doubt I'll ever replay either game. I do hope for the continuation of the franchise, as I feel it's Nintendo's best new IP, but I think the nature of the genre and the visual style inherently limits its sales. Of course that's a shame, but that's pretty much the nature of the beast.
A bigger issue I often ponder: What exactly are the majority of Gamecube owners buying and playing? I can understand a title like Pikmin not selling extremely well, but when a franchise such as Zelda only sells ~3 million, with ~18 million GCs out there, what exactly are people playing? I guess kids' games and whatnot, but what a shame.
I completed Pikmin, and have almost finished Pikmin 2, and while I found both games to be brilliant in concept and full of originality, I honestly didn't have loads of fun playing either one. Like most, I am enjoying the second more than the first (it just feels like a fuller, more complete experience) and there were moments where I really enjoyed it, but I highly doubt I'll ever replay either game. I do hope for the continuation of the franchise, as I feel it's Nintendo's best new IP, but I think the nature of the genre and the visual style inherently limits its sales. Of course that's a shame, but that's pretty much the nature of the beast.
A bigger issue I often ponder: What exactly are the majority of Gamecube owners buying and playing? I can understand a title like Pikmin not selling extremely well, but when a franchise such as Zelda only sells ~3 million, with ~18 million GCs out there, what exactly are people playing? I guess kids' games and whatnot, but what a shame.
If they do a Pikmin 3, I hope that take it down a "Gremlins" style path.
One side is good Pikmin who help, build, create etc and the others are evil Pikmin who destroy ,undermine the work of the good pikmin and set traps and cause accidents.
Could make a for a fun two player mode.
One side is good Pikmin who help, build, create etc and the others are evil Pikmin who destroy ,undermine the work of the good pikmin and set traps and cause accidents.
Could make a for a fun two player mode.