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[ElyrionX]

Ok, I already indicated that this would be spoiler thread, I shall not use spoiler tags in here.

*MGS1 to MGS3 SPOILER WARNING*

I just finished MGS3 and I'm quite lost on some points. I can't really remember but is Big Boss supposed to be evil after the events of MGS3? So Big Boss created FOXHOUND? And what happened to him after that? I don't remember anything being said about him in MGS1 and MGS2.

Also, what is the Les Enfant Terribles project about? Were Liquid and Solid Snake true natural offsprings of Big Boss or were they cloned from him? Were they the only two clones or were there more?

Regarding Ocelot, that conversation at the end of the MGS3 ending, so what does it all mean? So who is he ultimately loyal to? America? What about in MGS1 and MGS2?

 

[SolidSnakex]

"I can't really remember but is Big Boss supposed to be evil after the events of MGS3?"

Pretty much.

"So Big Boss created FOXHOUND?"

Yes.

"And what happened to him after that?"

Solid Snake killed him in Zanzibar (MG2).

"Also, what is the Les Enfant Terribles project about? Were Liquid and Solid Snake true natural offsprings of Big Boss or were they cloned from him? Were they the only two clones or were there more?"

It's Solid Snake, Liquid Snake, and Solidus. They're all clones of Big Boss.

 

[lunlunqq]

Spoiler

Hmm, Big Boss's story goes much earlier than MGS1. He is the final boss of MG1, the 1st game of the MG series which was released in 1987 if my memory is correct. He created the the millitary fortress, Out Heaven, and tried to build Metal Gear there. He was killed by Solid Snake at the end of that game.


Les Enfant Terribles project is about creating clones of Big Boss as super soldiers. According to Liquid's statment at the end of MGS2, there were 8 clones of BB but 6 of them were abandoned. The last two became Solid and Liquid. But this is not true because Solidus is also a child of the Les Enfant Terribles project and he's supposed to be the "perfect" one.

 

[Mike Works]

I just finished MGS3 and I'm quite lost on some points. I can't really remember but is Big Boss supposed to be evil after the events of MGS3?

Not really. It depends on your (personal) religious beliefs.

So Big Boss created FOXHOUND? And what happened to him after that?

He created the simulation program in Metal Gear Solid 2.

Also, what is the Les Enfant Terribles project about? Were Liquid and Solid Snake true natural offsprings of Big Boss or were they cloned from him? Were they the only two clones or were there more?

1) It was evidently about babies. Terrible babies.
2) Yes.
3) There were more. Raiden was a half clone, which explains the hair.

Regarding Ocelot, that conversation at the end of the MGS3 ending, so what does it all mean? So who is he ultimately loyal to? America? What about in MGS1 and MGS2?

Watch Shanghai Noon. Ocelot is essentially Roy Orbosan.

 

[ElyrionX]

What "evil" deeds did Big Boss do? So essentially, the way the US government forced him to kill The Boss drove him over the edge? What was he trying to accomplish after the events of MGS3?

So who the hell is Solidus (the name sounds familiar) and where was he during the events of the games?

Solid Snake killed Big Boss in Zanzibar? What was going on at Zanzibar anyway?

Damn, it's so weird visualising all that. Playing through MGS1 to 3 feels as if Solid Snake is all of them. Especially since Big Boss in MGS3 behaved like Solid Snake did in MGS1 and 2. I mean, sure, they are clones but it still feels weird.

 

[Piecake]

Ok, I already indicated that this would be spoiler thread, I shall not use spoiler tags in here.

*MGS1 to MGS3 SPOILER WARNING*

I just finished MGS3 and I'm quite lost on some points. I can't really remember but is Big Boss supposed to be evil after the events of MGS3? So Big Boss created FOXHOUND? And what happened to him after that? I don't remember anything being said about him in MGS1 and MGS2.

Also, what is the Les Enfant Terribles project about? Were Liquid and Solid Snake true natural offsprings of Big Boss or were they cloned from him? Were they the only two clones or were there more?

Regarding Ocelot, that conversation at the end of the MGS3 ending, so what does it all mean? So who is he ultimately loyal to? America? What about in MGS1 and MGS2?

Spoiler

Big Boss wasnt suppossed to be portrayed as Evil after the events of mgs3. There are a few plausible reasons why BB created outer heaven (Thats what he did after mgs3). he wanted to get back at the patriots for using The boss, and set up a base that could be free from patriot and politician control, and where soldiers would not be used by politicians, it would be a soldiers paradise. Or that the order to set up Outer heaven was an order from the Patriots for some reason and Solid snake never found out that BB was loyal to the end, like BB finds that the Boss remains loyal to the end.

They were cloned from BB when BB was in a Coma. There were 8 embryos, and three(so far, rest pressumed dead) have appeared-solid, liquid, solidus.

Ocelot is loyal to the American branch of the Philosophers, which later was renamed the patriots. In mgs1 and 2 Ocelot was still working for the Patriots. Ocelot is the son of The Boss and the Sorrow who was taken from the Boss at birth, and presumably grew up in one of those philosopher "charm schools" like EVA did.

 

[ElyrionX]

Ok, so Solid Snake killed Big Boss at Zanzibar which was depicted in the NES game, Metal Gear? I got that. So Big Boss wasn't exactly "evil", huh?

So what about Solidus then? Where is he and what happened to him?

With regards to MGS2, after all that VR training crap, did anything SIGNIFICANT emerge that has any sort of substantial impact on the series?

 

[SolidSnakex]

"What "evil" deeds did Big Boss do? So essentially, the way the US government forced him to kill The Boss drove him over the edge? What was he trying to accomplish after the events of MGS3?"

Long story short, he was running Outer Heaven which was planning on becoming the military leader in the world because of Metal Gear. Solid Snake destroys MG and Big Boss flees to Zanzibar where Solid tracks him down finnaly and kills him.

"So who the hell is Solidus (the name sounds familiar) and where was he during the events of the games?"

Solidus is the main boss in MGS2. Also he was at one time the President of the US under the name George Sears.

"Damn, it's so weird visualising all that. Playing through MGS1 to 3 feels as if Solid Snake is all of them."

They're very similar characters in that at the time they're completely loyal to their country. Both Big Boss and SS do what they're told no questions asked.

Kojima needs to remake the first 2 games. There's definetly a market for them.

 

[Crazymoogle]

Regarding Ocelot, that conversation at the end of the MGS3 ending, so what does it all mean? So who is he ultimately loyal to? America? What about in MGS1 and MGS2?

MGS1: He works for Liquid as a member of FOXHOUND, but takes the REX test data (MO disc) to sell to the russians. He then reports to Solidus Snake (US President, Patriots lackey) at the end of the game.

MGS2: He works for the russians to retrieve the only existing Metal Gear RAY, then betrays the russians to give RAY to Solidus Snake (the now ousted former president). During the Big Shell incident he works as a member of Solidus' "Sons of Liberty", which is trying to establish (basically) a new Outer Heaven in New York City and create a bargaining chip against the Patriots. Ocelot then betrays Solidus by corrupting the Arsenal Gear AI and takes the final operating RAY (and only nuclear-armed model) from the scene. He openly admits to being an agent of the Patriots.

*Note that thanks to his father, he also channels the spirit of his new arm - Liquid Snake, who is bent on using RAY to rip the Patriots a new one.

MGS3: He works for the russians as leader of the spetznaz Ocelot unit under the control of Volgin, but is ready to also be known as "ADAM", the NSA operative on the scene. Despite the presence of other Philosopher agents, he is actually working for the US branch of the Philosophers (known as the Patriots). He takes the real financial data to turn the Patriots into the dominant Philosopher group in the world while simultaneously holding up his role as a double agent between the Russian and American Governments.

What "evil" deeds did Big Boss do? So essentially, the way the US government forced him to kill The Boss drove him over the edge? What was he trying to accomplish after the events of MGS3?

1. Abandoned his country while recruiting some members of FOXHOUND as well as some nuclear weapons.
2. Established the country/fortress known as Outer Heaven.
3. Abducted a scientist to create a new Metal Gear.

You can very easily argue that these steps were taken to form a trump card he could use against the Patriots in order to form a country free from their hands. He pretty obviously had very little respect to the country that threw away the lives of the entire cobra unit, took away his eye, and put him through hell just to take back some money.

So who the hell is Solidus (the name sounds familiar) and where was he during the events of the games?

MGS1: President of the USA George Sears
MGS2: Ousted President and leader of the Sons of Liberty. Has crazy Dr. Octopus threads

Damn, it's so weird visualising all that. Playing through MGS1 to 3 feels as if Solid Snake is all of them. Especially since Big Boss in MGS3 behaved like Solid Snake did in MGS1 and 2. I mean, sure, they are clones but it still feels weird.

It's interesting because essentially every rendition of Big Boss has tried to defy the Patriots. Big Boss and Solidus tried to create independent nations, while Liquid (and to a point, Solid) have a much more direct approach.

 

[ElyrionX]

Solidus is the main boss in MGS2. Also he was at one time the President of the US under the name George Sears.

WTF? Wasn't Ocelot with Liquid Snake's arm, the main boss of MGS2? Ok, I admit that my memory of MGS2 is kinda fuzzy because all that shit near the end of the game completely threw me off balance. But I seriously don't remember there being a Solidus in MGS2.

 

[EekTheKat]

WTF? Wasn't Ocelot with Liquid Snake's arm, the main boss of MGS2? Ok, I admit that my memory of MGS2 is kinda fuzzy because all that shit near the end of the game completely threw me off balance. But I seriously don't remember there being a Solidus in MGS2.

Remember the sword fight on top of the federal building? That guy with the funky arms is Solidus

 

[Crazymoogle]

WTF? Wasn't Ocelot with Liquid Snake's arm, the main boss of MGS2? Ok, I admit that my memory of MGS2 is kinda fuzzy because all that shit near the end of the game completely threw me off balance. But I seriously don't remember there being a Solidus in MGS2.

Solidus: Guy wearing the black military suit with the two Dr. Octopus tentacles. Raiden kills him on the roof of the Federal Building (and as nice as MGS3 is, the Federal Building battle is my favorite boss battle in memory)

Ocelot: The Old White Haired guy with the revolvers and the bullet-deflecting shield. Near the end of the game he is piloting the only fully capable Metal Gear RAY.

 

[SolidSnakex]

WTF? Wasn't Ocelot with Liquid Snake's arm, the main boss of MGS2? Ok, I admit that my memory of MGS2 is kinda fuzzy because all that shit near the end of the game completely threw me off balance. But I seriously don't remember there being a Solidus in MGS2.

Remember the guy you fight with Raiden at the end of the game? That's Solidus.

 

[lunlunqq]

About BB's motivation, as mentioned above, he was trying to create a world where soldiers would not being used just as political tools. Actually after finishing MG1 many many years ago, I used to think BB was evil and he just tried to create a super weapon to control the world. The ending of MGS3 actually explains a lot about BB's motivation: he just inherited The Boss's dream, to continue her fight against the Patroits and return peace to the world! So I don't he's evil at all.

 

[Piecake]

Spoiler

Solidus found out the Patriots plot to implement the s3 plan. The S3 plan was a plan that would control the flow of information through the Arsenal Gear which would effectively let the Patriots shape history as they see fit because they could control what imformation would be distributed to the masses, and have any dissenting opinion to that eliminated. Solidus wanted to stop this, and stop the patriots so he infiltrated the Big Shell which housed Aresenal Gear.

The patriots s3 plan at this time wasnt complete and they needed to run a test that would test how Aresnel gear would cope with extreme circumstances. To achieve this, the decided to recreate shadow moses because it was a very extreme circumstance. To get all of the players involved they killed Fortunes husband and told Dead Cell that the govt did it, so they would follow Solidus and attack the Big shell.

Raiden was used because he was the perfect example of an ordinary man, and had a relationship with solidus that resembled the one with solid and liquid. The patriots used Raiden and Solidus to recreate Shadow moses to get the data so they could implement the S3 plan. And they succeeded.

Solidus' goal was to get information on the location of the patriots and their names in aresnal gear so that he could destroy them. Solidus wanted the US to be free from the Patriots control and have a society based on the ideals in the Constitution etc. However, Raiden killed Solidus, and snake ended up chasing after Ocelot/liquid and the patriots at the end.

 

[ElyrionX]

*EDITED*

Ok, I remember Solidus now. Damn, that dude was the Boss's clone? He was pretty much a weakass.

 

[Crazymoogle]

Ooooo ok. I think I do remember fighting something like that in MGS2 (was it near the end and Raiden had to use the katana to kill him?). So THAT was Solidus huh?

...

You really, really need to go back and play MGS2. -_-;

EDIT: For general thread refresher purposes, he also pilots the Harrier during that boss fight, attempts to choke Raiden to death, kills three production model RAYs in less than 30 seconds, and puts a bullet through Olga's skull.

 

[EekTheKat]

Metal Gear is presented as cyclical in nature - after all there's only room for one snake and one boss -

The Boss is deemed an enemy by the government (for everything that happened in MGS3), Big Boss/Naked Snake is sent in to kill her.

Big Boss is (eventually) deemed a baddie by the government (Outer Heaven was viewed as something bad, A Patriot controlled America = Good), Solid Snake is sent in to deal with him.

Solid Snake (in MGS2) was to some extent a terrorist (Each country around the world had their own Metal Gears - he was running around the world destroying Metal Gears ), thus eventually he would have to be dealt with as well.

Depending on which direction MGS4 goes, it could very well have Solid Snake be the "boss" of sorts, and a new Snake would rise to take him down. Or it could just be about Solid Snake breaking the cycle, truly ending the "Solid" series, and Konami starts over with a clean slate for whatever Metal Gear comes up.

Or maybe Metal Gear Acid clears that part up.

 

[ElyrionX]

Ok, so ultimately Big Boss, Liquid and Solidus are not "evil" at all? And Raiden and to a lesser extent, Solid Snake, are just mere puppets of the Patriots who are clueless to what's going on?

 

[EekTheKat]

Oops yeah I forgot to add Solidus to that equation (my MGS2 memories are a bit fuzzy) - I only know bits and pieces but if you put this thread together it should make some semblence of sanity.

 

[EekTheKat]

Ok, so ultimately Big Boss, Liquid and Solidus are not "evil" at all? And Raiden and to a lesser extent, Solid Snake, are just mere puppets of the Patriots who are clueless to what's going on?

More or less yes, the ultimate goal is to live free of the influence of the Patriots. Solid Snake + Raiden were made aware of what the Patriots were though in MGS2.

 

[Crazymoogle]

Metal Gear is presented as cyclical in nature - after all there's only room for one snake and one boss -

Which is made far more interesting in the context that Liquid Snake uses at the end of MGS2. Who's Big Boss now - Solid or Liquid?

Since Solid Snake is more interested in stopping Liquid (who, you have to admit, is now the world's most dangerous rogue thanks to the world's only nuclear-equipped Metal Gear RAY), we can argue that Liquid is the new Big Boss, with Solid still playing the Snake roll.

What is destabilizing the loop is that "Big Boss" is on both teams, which can very well explain why Kojima can say his trilogy is done = the loop story has been told, and whatever comes next quite likely will be something else entirely.

Or maybe Metal Gear Acid clears that part up.

About the only thing that gives me any continuity hope for Ac!d is the revelation caused by the secret Ghost Babel ending, and even that isn't very much.

 

[SolidSnakex]

"Which is made far more interesting in the context that Liquid Snake uses at the end of MGS2. Who's Big Boss now - Solid or Liquid?"

Well the Boss says that whoever wins becomes The Boss. Snake beat her and became Big Boss, Solid Snake beat him so technically he's the Boss now.

 

[EekTheKat]

Heh I really have to revisit MGS1 and 2 again.

I'm missing a big chunk of info in that cycle I wrote up, but the idea is roughly the same.

 

[ElyrionX]

What is destabilizing the loop is that "Big Boss" is on both teams, which can very well explain why Kojima can say his trilogy is done = the loop story has been told, and whatever comes next quite likely will be something else entirely.

Kojima said that?

So if the Patriots are so bad and all, why is it that Solidus and Liquid were depicted as so "evil" in the first and second games? Damn, MGS3 really changes the perspective on a lot of things...

So if Solid Snake and Raiden are made aware of the Patriots by the end of MGS2, it's possible that the next game would involve them doing something about it? (Much like how Big Boss, Liquid and Solidus were trying to do?) Considering how unpopular Raiden is with MGS fans, does anyone think we will see him in a starring role in future games?

 

[Crazymoogle]

Well the Boss says that whoever wins becomes The Boss. Snake beat her and became Big Boss, Solid Snake beat him so technically he's the Boss now.

If we could judge based on technicality, Liquid Snake would still be entirely six feet under!

Seriously, Liquid is the one now with all of the tools and reasons to defy the Patriots, body or not. I highly imagine he thinks he has a leg up on his old man thanks to having Revolver Ocelot part of his group (whether Ocelot likes it or not!)

Snake is genetically qualified, but until he shifts his focus from the world's most wanted fugitive to taking out the Patriots, I'm not sure he fits the moniker yet.

Besides which, by that logic he should have been the Boss upon defeating Liquid in Alaska, but of course there were three snakes at that time...

 

[Crazymoogle]

Kojima said that?

Read the IGN interview. There is a GAF thread right now about it. There will be more MGS, but where the story goes is somewhat up in the air.

So if the Patriots are so bad and all, why is it that Solidus and Liquid were depicted as so "evil" in the first and second games? Damn, MGS3 really changes the perspective on a lot of things...

Because both men are operating under a strict "Ends justify the means" strategy. No matter how good Liquid or Solidus' morals might be, the fact is that they both stole nuclear weapons, threatened to use them, and killed a fair number of people in the process. Now Liquid is carrying a Broken Arrow and the legacy of Solidus is a billion dollar battle station crashed into NYC.

So if Solid Snake and Raiden are made aware of the Patriots by the end of MGS2, it's possible that the next game would involve them doing something about it? (Much like how Big Boss, Liquid and Solidus were trying to do?) Considering how unpopular Raiden is with MGS fans, does anyone think we will see him in a starring role in future games?

Liquid said just as much and presumably jumped from Arsenal Gear to do something about it. He has the only full spec RAY, and it has nukes.

Solid indicated a plan to retrieve Olga's Baby, so he too is messing with the Patriots, although based on their limited intel, they still probably don't know nearly enough of what they're getting into.

Starring role for Raiden? No thanks. But as the new persisting "Ninja" character? Sure.

 

[EekTheKat]

This thread seriously needs some diagrams + charts lol

 

[lunlunqq]

....
Solid Snake killed Big Boss in Zanzibar? What was going on at Zanzibar anyway?
....

the one who snake killed in Zanzibar in MG2 was grey fox, not BB.

BB was killed in MG1,

 

[Dujour]

wtf, BB was burned to death in MG2:SS. I know BECAUSE I WAS THERE. When I have the time, unless SSX beats me to it, I'll straighten things out for you.

 

[Kiriku]

I have a few questions as well, since my memory is somewhat rusty.

Why wasn't Solidus mentioned in MGS1, how come noone knew about him back then?

Who made the three clones of Big Boss, and for what purpose?

What does it mean to BE Boss? What does it signify? Is it just a matter of honor?

 

[Crazymoogle]

Why wasn't Solidus mentioned in MGS1, how come noone knew about him back then?

Solidus at that point is the president of the United States. He's even mentioned by name in the text only ending segment. His snake origins are much more mysterious, but when the Patriots are running the show, secrets aren't so surprising.

And as Serafitia mentions, Snake has to kill Big Boss again in MG2 using a makeshift flamethrower (since Big Boss has a nifty exoskeleton thanks to his previous defeat). Grey Fox dies previous to that in the infamous minefield fistfight.

 

[SolidSnakex]

"Who made the three clones of Big Boss, and for what purpose?"

The US government. The purpose was so they could create a line of "perfect" soldiers. From what they knew of Big Boss, he was exactly that.

"What does it mean to BE Boss? What does it signify? Is it just a matter of honor?"

It's an honor. Although as we learn in MGS3, it seems to mean more to the people that have the name than it does to the government that gives them it.

 

[Azrael]

I wonder if The Patriots might try to clone The Boss to take down Solid Snake? Remember that the Les Enfantes Teribles project took place before The Patriots realized that Big Boss had betrayed them. They probably wouldn't have used him as the basis for a super soldier had they known he was disloyal. Solid Snake, Liquid Snake and Solidus all became enemies of The Patriots in one form or another, just like Big Boss. The Boss, despite everything she suffered because of The Patriots, was loyal to them to the end where Big Boss and his clones were not. Her sole transgression was having Eva reveal information to Big Boss that The Patriots didn't want him to know, but other than that she was completely loyal to them. So from The Patriots point of view, The Boss would have made the better choice for cloning super soldiers from than Big Boss, although they couldn't have known that when the Les Enfantes Teribles project began. And there's no reason they couldn't still have The Boss' DNA.

I'm also starting to suspect that in a Keyser Soze like twist, Ocelot may not be a spy of The Patriots, but may in fact be The Patriots (or what's left of them anyway) and the mastermind of everything that's going on. He allows everyone to believe that he's a spy/mercenary when he's in fact the one calling all the shots and manipulating events on the ground to his own favor.