Open Spoilers : Clair Obscur: Expedition 33

But the description of what is needed to paint someone is given exactly when lune and sciel are being painted again, and it helps maelle accomplish where before she was failing, so we know that memories still apply.
Yes, Verso says (when Maelle is trying and failing) something to the effect of Painting is not about verisimilitude, it's about essence. In other words it's not about the appearance of truth, but the actual truth. When she follows his advice, she succeeds and they return. Granted this advice is somewhat ironic coming from Verso who views himself as a counterfeit copy, but then I think he could only be a counterfeit copy when he was created.

I think another indicator that she (by 'remembering the truth' of Lune and Sciel) is essentially reaching for Lune's unique chroma soul and Sciel's unique chroma soul and resurrecting them -rather than merely using the available chroma as a universal resource and choosing to create counterfeit copies of Lune and Sciel- is that she does not prioritise Gustave over them, which imo she obviously would if she could. She cannot because she has their chroma specifically and not his.

Maelle creates again lune and sciel by using the little bit of chroma that she stole before fleeing lumiere... , are you telling me that before fleeing she was able to exactly locate the "soul" of lune and sciel, specifically in the the chroma that Renoir was conjuring to create his "soldiers" and create them from that?
Yes. She appears to see two gommaged souls floating around / drawn to her, says 'I can see them', and pulls them into her chest.


The second painted verso is definitely different and seems from the cutscene to be under the control of maelle
I think he's only different in the traditional 'character progression' sense, and that he is now basically resigned to his fate. I think if she created a new version she would presumably make a less miserable version. This cutscene is very open to interpretation though.
 
I think he's only different in the traditional 'character progression' sense, and that he is now basically resigned to his fate. I think if she created a new version she would presumably make a less miserable version. This cutscene is very open to interpretation though.

Maelle has learned the power to repaint verso, removed his scars and let him aged, but she didn't repaint Alicia,Renoir,Clea and Aline 🤣
 
I can't create threads so I am posting this here:
Thomas Jolly, the guy who directed the ultra-woke opening ceremony of the Paris 2024 olympics has been nominated as head of the french national committee for video game grants (part of the CNC)


His only qualification is : "As a youngster, I played video games."
EviLore EviLore
 
Maelle has learned the power to repaint verso, removed his scars and let him aged, but she didn't repaint Alicia,Renoir,Clea and Aline 🤣
Based Maelle moment.

I'm not sure we are to infer that Maelle has altered him to remove his scar and 'let him age' or if he has just given up and this what a Verso who has given up looks like. We know that the scar was there previously by his own choice and that his hair switched to being default grey a long time ago.
 
Based Maelle moment.

I'm not sure we are to infer that Maelle has altered him to remove his scar and 'let him age' or if he has just given up and this what a Verso who has given up looks like. We know that the scar was there previously by his own choice and that his hair switched to being default grey a long time ago.

Verso is definitely ded after his battle with Maelle.
 
Verso is definitely ded after his battle with Maelle.
He can't really die though that's the problem, because Painted Verso and the other Painted family members were created (Painted) to just resurrect automatically. They have to actively be 'unpainted' by a Painter for this to stop, which is what Painted Alicia has Maelle do, and what Painted Verso begs Maelle to do as he lays 'dying', but she won't.
 
But the description of what is needed to paint someone is given exactly when lune and sciel are being painted again, and it helps maelle accomplish where before she was failing, so we know that memories still apply.
Also, gommaged people turn into chroma which then can be used by the "leading painter" to create
Maelle creates again lune and sciel by using the little bit of chroma that she stole before fleeing lumiere... , are you telling me that before fleeing she was able to exactly locate the "soul" of lune and sciel, specifically in the the chroma that Renoir was conjuring to create his "soldiers" and create them from that?
Seems farfetched to be honest.
But I do agree that at least during playing time we are not given any indication that they are any different... The second painted verso is definitely different and seems from the cutscene to be under the control of maelle

Yea like, I can buy recreated Lune and Sciel legit, but everyone else? At least with Lune and Sciel, I take it since before they disappeared, she 'grabbed' their essence. Verso 3.0 looks definitely puppet'd to me. And I don't buy that everyone else now are real. The entrance is filed with a crowd of look-a-likes, and your telling me Maelle managed to paint Pierre, someone who she has no idea about or never met and any random people in the world? I don't think so. Especially when out of everyone, she's the weakest painter in the family, she might have potential, but she didn't get the proper teachings from her parents or anything cause of the mess. I think they're all just marionettes now versus truly sentient as before, but that's just my interpretation.
 
1)Yes, Verso says (when Maelle is trying and failing) something to the effect of Painting is not about verisimilitude, it's about essence. In other words it's not about the appearance of truth, but the actual truth. When she follows his advice, she succeeds and they return. Granted this advice is somewhat ironic coming from Verso who views himself as a counterfeit copy, but then I think he could only be a counterfeit copy when he was created.

I think another indicator that she (by 'remembering the truth' of Lune and Sciel) is essentially reaching for Lune's unique chroma soul and Sciel's unique chroma soul and resurrecting them -rather than merely using the available chroma as a universal resource and choosing to create counterfeit copies of Lune and Sciel- is that she does not prioritise Gustave over them, which imo she obviously would if she could. She cannot because she has their chroma specifically and not his.


2)Yes. She appears to see two gommaged souls floating around / drawn to her, says 'I can see them', and pulls them into her chest.



3)I think he's only different in the traditional 'character progression' sense, and that he is now basically resigned to his fate. I think if she created a new version she would presumably make a less miserable version. This cutscene is very open to interpretation though.
1)I still don't see the chroma=soul thing being, well, a thing.chroma is basically just depicted as MP you need for your painter spells.

2)interpreted that scene just to mean that now she can see the chroma floating around and she steals some of them...sciel and lune have been gommaged a long time ago at that point, they should be just chroma floating around, not souls.but it is true that at that point, why not bring back gustave?given it might be a matter of scarcity of resources.

3)it is definitely a different verso since he can now get old...I saw that scene as a glimpse of the real verso trying to surface back, but being pushed away by maelle's powers.
also if we go for the chroma=souls analogy...how did she made Gustave back? or Pierre? did she even knew pierre to capture his essence and bring him back?
Gustave's chroma, assuming he was gommaged after being skewered, should be long already been used when renoir made all those new creations
 
And I don't buy that everyone else now are real. The entrance is filed with a crowd of look-a-likes,

The crowd is all white in color lol. Verso 3.0 is also white in 4:3 format

Maelle smile is like 😐 the whole scene. As an expert in facial micro expressions, sandfall did an impressive work on this area that exceeded most studios that came before
 
I still don't see the chroma=soul thing being, well, a thing.chroma is basically just depicted as MP you need for your painter spells.
I agree that sometimes it seems to be depicted as just MP, but I don't think the capturing and subsequent resurrection/recreation of Lune and Sciel is depicted that way. I did not take 'I can see them' *grab* as just 'sweet, here's some MP I can use', and if it is meant that way I see no reasonable explanation for why she wouldn't immediately res Gustave given he's most important to her by far and the person she knows best. iirc the possibility of doing so never even gets mentioned.

Once Renoir leaves the Canvas and Maelle presumably assumes control of 'all the chroma in the Canvas', I assume she can 'properly' resurrect anyone she wants except those who died to Nevrons. She has full admin access at that point. Ofc, some or all of the people in the end cutscene could be counterfeits, I just don't think we can know that one way or the other.

Do we see anyone in the end cutscene we know died to Nevron? Because I think if we do we could reasonably assume that person at least is a counterfeit.
 
1)I agree that sometimes it seems to be depicted as just MP, but I don't think the capturing and subsequent resurrection/recreation of Lune and Sciel is depicted that way. I did not take 'I can see them' *grab* as just 'sweet, here's some MP I can use', and if it is meant that way I see no reasonable explanation for why she wouldn't immediately res Gustave given he's most important to her by far and the person she knows best. iirc the possibility of doing so never even gets mentioned.

2)Once Renoir leaves the Canvas and Maelle presumably assumes control of 'all the chroma in the Canvas', I assume she can 'properly' resurrect anyone she wants except those who died to Nevrons. She has full admin access at that point. Ofc, some or all of the people in the end cutscene could be counterfeits, I just don't think we can know that one way or the other.

Do we see anyone in the end cutscene we know died to Nevron? Because I think if we do we could reasonably assume that person at least is a counterfeit.
1) gustave would be too underleveled and she had chroma for just 2 people:messenger_tears_of_joy:

2)the thing is, gustave's chroma has for sure already been used for all that massive spawn of monsters..so at that point how it is still gustave soul and not the nevron soul? they do have conscience and feelings, sometimes.

3)that's the thing, everyone is a copycat except for the main cast and Sophie + pierre...and all the main cast female members are also dressed exactly the same for no reason..that ending is sus as fuck
 
One thing I think about is how Verso admits he let Gustave die because he was afraid that it make it harder for Maelle to help when she found out the truth. But I feel like if Gustave was still around and learned the truth, at the end, he would 100% betray Lumiere and sacrifice his own existence to save his Maelle's real life. Back to the campfire scene with Lune, "You always said that the future of Lumiere is more important than any one life. Do you still believe that?" And Gustave replies with "I hope so." And I believe by the end, it would be no. He would value Maelle's life above all else.

Also brings about thoughts about the way Verso handled things. Lune called it. "You didn't even try" Well, he probably did, but he's been at it for so long, he gave up trying to reason and work with others, and honestly at this point, its the closest he ever got. Its his last chance. I don't blame him, but godamn, from the start, almost every line he sprouts is a lie of some sort. And first time players pretty much trusted him, even if a bit sus at times. (I found that gamers still aren't used to games lying to them) He instantly called out Maelle's lie to her father because the master of lies can stop an amateur at it. (the father knew too lol)
Like there might be a .5% chance of a happy ending, where the family moves on, and the painting survives and everyone lives happily ever after, but the character flaws of everyone involved makes that impossible. Regular anime jrpgs go for the final .5% chance in the end and it works out cause anime.

The family members also interesting when trying to dig a bit deeper. Like Alicia felt she was hated or ostracized even before the fire. But have to think of who she is. She's the youngest, and after the fire, she's "not a child, but not grown either" Age-wise, she may be an adult, but she hasn't gained the experience to properly call herself an adult. So to me, mentally, she is a bit of a child. She remarks how they only ever hung one picture of her on the wall, but this is a family of painters. She isn't good enough to hang more pictures, but doesn't mean they hate her for that or anything. She has room to grow. The father painted The Reacher to represent her, that her potential is as high as the sky.

The elder sister Clea is the GOAT. Like her intial introduction, it's like damn, this bitch is so cold. But she has to be strong when the whole family is crumbling. And we do learn that after Aliciia first jumps in and gets overtaken by the chroma and reborn. After a long period of no contact since the fracture. She specifically goes to contact Verso in person to look after Maelle. She wouldn't do that if she didn't care. Also, the way I took her line, "Verso traded his life for yours, for that, I love and hate him for it" Like knee-jerk reaction would be like, 'oh she hates me for living' But at the end, I read it as "I love him for saving you. But hate him for dying." And honestly, that's a common way some people handle loss. They want to blame someone, even the person that died. Like "why did you have to do leave. look at the mess you left us with." Anger and blame is a common stage of grief.

Not sure about Aline, she probably does blame Alicia outright. Maybe not blame, but just a constant remainder of what happened. She was definitely the most broke.
Looks to me like Verso was Aline's favorite, Alicia was Renoir's and Clea was the middleground for both.
 
One thing I think about is how Verso admits he let Gustave die because he was afraid that it make it harder for Maelle to help when she found out the truth. But I feel like if Gustave was still around and learned the truth, at the end, he would 100% betray Lumiere and sacrifice his own existence to save his Maelle's real life. Back to the campfire scene with Lune, "You always said that the future of Lumiere is more important than any one life. Do you still believe that?" And Gustave replies with "I hope so." And I believe by the end, it would be no. He would value Maelle's life above all else.
I am 100% with you on Gustave.
I am convinced he would side with Verso to save Maelle.
And that's put another dark twist on Maelle on her ending : Gustave is either not aware the situation (lie to by Maelle)or his personality/memory were modified by Maelle. Because I can't see him being OK with Verso being there against it's will and let Maelle die slowly and lose herself like Aline did.

On Clea I am also thinking she's a very good person in a difficult situation. At first she seems cold and bitchy but she's the only one taking care of the actual survival of the family by dealing with their war with the Writers.
Your quote "I love and hate him for that" is a perfect example that shows how she love Maelle.
On Verso's ending she's depicted as a caring and empathetic big sister. Maelle even smile back to her.
Aline maybe "hated" Alicia because of the accident but once she'll face Verso death it will go better.
I don't think Clea never had an issue with Alicia.
Renoir is my favorite character and Clea is becoming slowly the second one.
 
I'm not sure Gustave would forgo saving / bringing back Lumiere, Sophie, Emma, his apprentices etc. to go against Maelle's wishes and side with Verso. Even if we assume he would prioritise the out-of-Canvas Alicia aspect of Maelle (which I don't believe he would necessarily be inclined toward in the same way the family members or their Painted cousins might be), I don't think we can assume from his proven willingness to sacrifice himself for Maelle that he would be willing to sacrifice everyone for 'Maelle' (Alicia). He doesn't seem particularly distraught about Maelle being part of the Expedition, in which it is almost certain that she will die for Lumiere.

It would have been interesting to see how Gustave handled the dilemma though, and it feels like a cop out that the prospect of bringing him back is not even addressed.

I didn't take the Clea quote about loving and hating Verso for sacrificing himself for Alicia to be an expression of love for Alicia, I took it to mean 'I love him for being that way, and hate him for it because it resulted in him sacrificing himself to save you'. I don't think Clea hates Alicia (and considers herself to have a familial duty to protect Alicia) but she considers Verso for Alicia to be a shitty trade and is making no secret of that.
 
Fake Verso's behaviour in his ending honestly struck me as a little hypocritical - I don't think he can make the decision he did unless he considers all the other Canvas bros (and himself) to be 'less than' / disposable due to their 'created' status. Fair enough if he thinks that, but I don't think he should then be treating them like they are meaningful entities with inherent value right after he just made a choice which means he considers them disposable.

Both Painted Verso and Maelle are acting hypocritically and not being totally genuine about their motivations: that is the point, and PV even says so during the final fight. In PV's case, while he claims to be erasing the canvas for Aline's sake, in truth he is just tired of living the artificially long life that had been foisted on him, and is willing to do whatever it takes to make it end. For Maelle, she claims to be preserving the canvas to save the lives of its inhabitants, but she really just wants to live out a fantasy so she doesn't have to deal with the difficulties of her reality. She defends gommaging Painted Alicia because it's what she wanted, but then refuses to grant PV the same end even when he begs for it.
 
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not being totally genuine about their motivations
I agree they aren't being totally genuine, though not to the extent that there is no truth at all in their less-selfish reasons.

I think the part I particularly took exception to with Verso's hypocrisy was his emotional farewell scene with Esquie and Monoco, while he's in the process of murdering them and everyone else. I also think the game is trying to have its cake and eat it too in this scene, because it wants the player to consider this to be a portrayal of real people/entities with real relationships and feel something as a result, but it also seems determined to give Verso a free pass for murdering everyone because 'whatever they aren't real anyway'.

If we consider the two endings to be putting Maelle and Verso on trial, to me it feels like Maelle gets a prosecutor and no defence attorney, while for Verso it's the opposite.

She defends gommaging Painted Alicia because it's what she wanted, but then refuses to grant PV the same end even when he begs for it.
I agree she should have agreed to Unpaint him (maybe not immediately, but if he held that position consistently). I'm not sure her refusal to do so (ie. her hypocrisy in this specific case) is well founded or earned. She never seems to be particularly motivated by grief for -or an unwillingness to live without- Verso in the way that Aline was. To me it feels like Maelle's refusal to Unpaint him is largely motivated by a desire to portray her as a villain, rather than naturally following what has come before. A case can be made that she would refuse to do it, but I don't think the game supports it well enough previously.
 
I agree she should have agreed to Unpaint him (maybe not immediately, but if he held that position consistently). I'm not sure her refusal to do so (ie. her hypocrisy in this specific case) is well founded or earned. She never seems to be particularly motivated by grief for -or an unwillingness to live without- Verso in the way that Aline was. To me it feels like Maelle's refusal to Unpaint him is largely motivated by a desire to portray her as a villain, rather than naturally following what has come before. A case can be made that she would refuse to do it, but I don't think the game supports it well enough previously.
I fully agree. This ending is voluntary presented as evil or bad (compare to the other one which feel good with the music, the family reunited...).

I really felt robbed when I chose Maelle and she suddenly refuses Verso's will and turn a bit into a puppet master.

Despite the dev saying there is no good and bad endings, they clearly made one feels bad and the other feels on surface presentation. If you dig of course it's up to each one to interpret which suits them the most. But on face value, Maelle is the bad ending and Verso the good one.
 
There really isn't a good and bad ending. Versos ending made me cry, while Maelles did not. Neither are a Hollywood happy ending. In versos ending, you destroy the painted world and all your friends there. Feels bad to destroy everything you spent playing in all game.
 
There really isn't a good and bad ending. Versos ending made me cry, while Maelles did not. Neither are a Hollywood happy ending. In versos ending, you destroy the painted world and all your friends there. Feels bad to destroy everything you spent playing in all game.
I am speaking about feeling good or bad.

Show the 2 scenes to someone who have not play the game and they will tell you Maelle ending looks evil/bad and Verso's sad but have a feel good feeling.

Of course once you know the story and interpret stuff, it's different.

But on face value this is the typical good vs bad ending for me. Which bothers me a bit because they are not treated the same by the dev while they can be as good or as bad depending on your interpretation and connection to the story.

Personally, and this is probably a first, I completely disconnected from the game universe at the end and took the grief theme very personally. Denial(long term) IRL is scary thing for me so Verso's ending is the only option for me.
I love the world and character but I do not care at all that they are erased. The theme of the story really hit me hard and I can only think of it with a IRL view.

Choosing Maelle's is validating denial and I can't accept it. My personal view of course. I don't judge anyone (prefer to say it because it looks like some people on the net are very sensitive when discussing these endings)
 
One is 'good coded' and one is 'bad coded' for sure. I don't think those interpretations stand up to scrutiny, but we are still leagues above most game storytelling here.
 
To me it feels like Maelle's refusal to Unpaint him is largely motivated by a desire to portray her as a villain, rather than naturally following what has come before. A case can be made that she would refuse to do it, but I don't think the game supports it well enough previously.

I agree that the game goes a bit too far in portraying Maelle's ending as the "more bad" ending, even though there are obviously massive downsides to both outcomes. However I do see her actions in the end as an extension of a common theme that is found throughout the game: the unwillingness of characters to consider reasonable, less problematic alternatives to their actions. All of the key players in the dispute over the fate of the canvas are so convicted in their belief that they are doing the right thing that they can't bring themselves to accept any sort of compromise, even rejecting such options the one or two times they are offered. Painted Alicia's letter to Maelle specifically calls attention to this problem, and Painted Verso throws it away. For Maelle's part, she believes she is doing the right thing in accepting PA's request to be erased, but she doesn't even offer PV the chance for a final goodbye, and she's fairly dismissive towards him when he calls her out for it. She also rejects PV's earlier request that Painted Renoir be incapacitated rather than killed, which she does for selfish (albeit understandable) reasons.

If the Dessendres had really tried to work through their grief over Verso's death together as a family, rather than pursuing their separate, mutually exclusive coping methods, they likely could have found a middle road that allowed for Aline and Alicia to visit the canvas in moderation.
 
It is pretty clear to me now, that the point of contention is feelings vs facts.

Feelings are important. Very important. But if you act according to feelings then you are short sighted and leads to doom. Your feelings can't keep you alive.

Facts are cruel and uncomfortable. If you want to run away from facts and hide in a painting, you can only do so by taking advantage of other people who has to take care of your share of the work. What is so bad about the Maelle ending? What about the fact that sheis living in a lie and kicking the can down the road and fixed nothing?

You want to feel good? Then someone else has to pay the price to let you indulge in your fantasies. If you see nothing wrong with that, then maybe you are used to things handed to you. I believe the term in tiktok is "manifesting'. Just wishing for things and then someone else will give it to you for free.

Saying "I just want to protect the painting world" is a lie. You are best able to protect the painting on the OUTSIDE. You go into the painting to play in it, you protect nothing that way. If Maelle care for the painting and its people, she would leave it to make sure it is not put in danger from outside forces.
 
In terms of the mechanics of the world, the game reminds me a lot of the Myst franchise

The game itself reminds me a lot of Final Fantasy X's story and journey in all the good ways, right up to the 2 endings neither of which are "good". Square Enix fucked up the ending of FFX by introducing the secret True Ending of FFX-2 TBH
 
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