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[Valjean Lafitte]

Though considering I was a retarded deviantART tween who was probably on the verge of creating their own fan-character it was in retrospect an appreciated wake-up call.

Ah, there's that cynical, meanspirited attitude that I so love to see in a Sonic fan!

Re: Your wakeup call: you a) became cynical, b) outgrew Sonic, or c) both. Forgive me if my armchair psychology is a tad off. In any case, I respect your reasons for disliking Sonic Heroes even if I disagree with them.

-Everyone keeps yapping and yapping during the game, so annoying

This is pretty much the one complaint about Modern Sonic I can never wrap my head around. I can see how Team Rose and Team Chaotix can get one someone's nerves, but when it comes to hearing Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles talk, it's always the same: the 15-year old inside of my screams "holy crap, three of my childhood Heroes are talking!". Maybe I just don't take Sonic as seriously, or maybe I'm just kind of biased towards the character being voiced (I'm currently voicing Sonic for a few fan games and flash cartoons.)

 

[qq more]

I'm not sure how you're getting the idea I don't like the fact they just talk. I'm obviously saying I hate the fact they talk a lot (hence the "yapping and yapping"). It's more grating when the characters in question have an annoying voice. (Seriously, Tails' voice was AWFUL)

But yeah, I hope that clears up. I have nothing against Sonic characters speaking when done right.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Tonally, the dialogue in Heroes is fine, it's just way too frequent and dumb. "I'M FLYIIIIIIING" isn't good dialogue.

 

[WillyFive]

I didn't like Sonic Heroes either. Felt like a downgrade from SA2 in gameplay, the character models were a clear downgrade from SA2 (low-poly and shiny), the story was total garbage and ruined the ending of SA2, and the stages were way too long.

It had good music though, which I suppose is the saving grace for most Sonic games.

 

[Azure Dream]

This is pretty much the one complaint about Modern Sonic I can never wrap my head around. I can see how Team Rose and Team Chaotix can get one someone's nerves, but when it comes to hearing Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles talk, it's always the same: the 15-year old inside of my screams "holy crap, three of my childhood Heroes are talking!". Maybe I just don't take Sonic as seriously, or maybe I'm just kind of biased towards the character being voiced (I'm currently voicing Sonic for a few fan games and flash cartoons.)

Some of us did grow up with a Sonic that said different things when he talked. By Heroes Sonic was really bland, he'd just do the Dreamworks eyebrow thing and say, "Hey, yeah, let's go!" Sonic, especially with the cartoons, had been sold to us as a "'tude" guy, and Heroes didn't do much to reflect that. In fact, most of the characters were pretty much devoid of, well, character. Less dialogue, and more better-written dialogue, would've helped.

It's a bit like when Nintendo lost track of Mario being the hero of these (to some of us) awesome adventures as a kid, and started making him a bouncy squishy cartoon of himself. (And even forgot to make the actual adventures for a while.)


Heroes itself was, to me, a good idea on paper. It went back to more fantasy and classic-oriented designs, it took multiple character divergent gameplay the previous adventures had included, but built it into a team mechanic you could switch between at any time... Of course, in reality it was ugly as sin, glitchy on nearly every platform but NTSC Gamecube (and even then...), and the level design was extremely repetitive and linear, and you were rarely given a choice of how you wanted to proceed through a part, you were so often forced to use one particular character the developers wanted. And all the extra, unnecessary teams, the constant gabbing, the clumsy plot and dangling loose ends...

One thing that was just strange, is that I remembered enjoying the Super Hard Sonic campaign more than I did the normal Sonic campaign, and I generally don't like "Hard Mode" stages, especially in Sonic games.

 

[WillyFive]

It's a bit like when Nintendo lost track of Mario being the hero of these (to some of us) awesome adventures as a kid, and started making him a bouncy squishy cartoon of himself.

This happened? Only change I remember was his voice going from a gruff NY Italian to a Mickey Mouse-esque voice.

 

[Azure Dream]

This happened? Only change I remember was his voice going from a gruff NY Italian to a Mickey Mouse-esque voice.

In my opinion it did. Not just the voice, but his design did shift, the animations in Mario 64 and beyond started making him more bendy-stretchy, he became super happy all the friggin' time, and after Mario 64, we didn't get a "real" Mario platformer, until Sunshine, and that's the game you fought Bowser sitting in his bathtub at the end. And it was a wait after that again until New Super Mario Bros, and finally Mario Galaxy.

Ports of old games to GBC and GBA do not count, even if they tack on stretching sprites and DLC levels that hardly see release.

 

[Shadow Hog]

Tonally, the dialogue in Heroes is fine, it's just way too frequent and dumb. "I'M FLYIIIIIIING" isn't good dialogue.

"LOOK AT ALL THOSE EGGMAN'S ROBOTS!" isn't even good grammar.

Heroes put me off the series as well - and I'd been a fan since the Genesis days, to boot. I'd held off on buying it based on hype due to a lot of similar fans suddenly coming out and going "actually, guys, this is pretty awful". So, instead, I rented it (wanted the GC version but wound up renting the Xbox one instead)... and yeah, they weren't far off. Like, I saw an inkling of a good idea in there, but it was buried under tons upon tons of jank. Excessively long levels. Inane dialog forcefed to you in the middle of stages. Excessively slippery controls. Gimmicks that just flat-out weren't fun (the bingo part of BINGO Highway, notably, for being impossible to control). Uninspired bosses (enemy gauntlets? Really?). Designing the game with each team being a "difficulty" setting (Sonic = Normal, Dark = Hard, Rose = Easy, Chaotix = Weird), and then forcing you to play all of them anyway just to beat the game. No, there is no way this could be considered a good game; it's mediocre at best, aggravating on average.

I did end up buying it on PC. For $5. Might've been $2.50, I forget. Either way it was years after Heroes was past its prime. Never bothered finishing it, either.

Rented Shadow, 2K6 and Unleashed after that, too. Unleashed was the first one I actually felt mildly compelled to finish (albeit I never did).

 

[Valjean Lafitte]

I'm not sure how you're getting the idea I don't like the fact they just talk. I'm obviously saying I hate the fact they talk a lot (hence the "yapping and yapping"). It's more grating when the characters in question have an annoying voice. (Seriously, Tails' voice was AWFUL)

But yeah, I hope that clears up. I have nothing against Sonic characters speaking when done right.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. A lot of people seem to have a problem with the entire voice cast and the fact that there's dialogue at all, and I wrongly assumed you were one of those guys.

Tonally, the dialogue in Heroes is fine, it's just way too frequent and dumb. "I'M FLYIIIIIIING" isn't good dialogue.

Some of us did grow up with a Sonic that said different things when he talked. By Heroes Sonic was really bland, he'd just do the Dreamworks eyebrow thing and say, "Hey, yeah, let's go!" Sonic, especially with the cartoons, had been sold to us as a "'tude" guy, and Heroes didn't do much to reflect that. In fact, most of the characters were pretty much devoid

I think I understand where you guys are coming from now. I had totally forgotten how bad some of the dialogue is in Sonic Heroes (e.g. "Look at all those Eggman's robots!") was. I guess it never bothered me so much because I actually enjoy the gameplay in Sonic Heroes (EXCEPT for those diabolical special stages!). I really can't relate to many of the complains about the gameplay, especially WRT the controls, which I thought were a big improvement on Sonic Adventure 2's.

I guess that makes me and Anth0ny are the sole members of "GAFers who didn't think Sonic Heroes sucked".

In my opinion it did. Not just the voice, but his design did shift, the animations in Mario 64 and beyond started making him more bendy-stretchy, he became super happy all the friggin' time, and after Mario 64, we didn't get a "real" Mario platformer, until Sunshine, and that's the game you fought Bowser sitting in his bathtub at the end. And it was a wait after that again until New Super Mario Bros, and finally Mario Galaxy.

I thought I was the only one around here who felt this way about Mario. He has indeed become a bouncy caricature, straying far from the the blue collar "everyman" he was until Super Mario 64. Ironically, at the start of the new millennium Miyamoto himself recognized this and started telling interviewers that Mario had become too "childish" in recent years. The next main series Mario game he made? The one where you fight Bowser in a hot tub.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Talkin' about Heroes again

This is where I remind everyone that I like Frog Forest

Yep

 

[Lord British]

Heroes turned me into a Sonic Cynic (Sinic?), but Colours and Generations picked me up again.

 

[Shadow Hog]

Cynic the Hedgehog

 

[Emitan]

Cynic the Hedgehog

 

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ariginal baracter dunut stel




By the way, why do people seriously believe that Sonic 06 was rushed by Microsoft? I think we had this discussion before but it's really weird how rarely anyone ever disproves that dumb rumor.

 

[Shadow Hog]

By the way, why do people seriously believe that Sonic 06 was rushed by Microsoft? I think we had this discussion before but it's really weird how rarely anyone ever disproves that dumb rumor.

Because they can't find it in themselves to admit that Sonic Team of that time period was shit, and so latch onto any other possible explanation for the low quality.

 

[Sciz]

I hated Heroes for the following reasons:
-Levels tend to overstay their welcome.
-Controls are annoying sometimes. It's too easy to fall into a pit on a tiny platform because of the actions.
-Chaotix Missions were tedious.
-Everyone keeps yapping and yapping during the game, so annoying.
-Enemies has multiple HP, which drags out fights with them.

That's Heroes in a nutshell alright. To add to the list:

-The bosses are awful
-The team special attacks are anti-fun (yes, I'd love to watch this single ten-second cutscene over and over and over again)
-Character abilities are just weirdly implemented: Rocket Accel is clunky and useless, flight is counterintuitively based on how far you moved, not how long you'd been in the air, and aerial abilities for all three character types have a ton of startup and cooldown lag.
-Kart sequences
-Unnecessary level-up system that primarily serves to slow the game down at the start of every single level

This is pretty much the one complaint about Modern Sonic I can never wrap my head around. I can see how Team Rose and Team Chaotix can get one someone's nerves, but when it comes to hearing Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles talk, it's always the same: the 15-year old inside of my screams "holy crap, three of my childhood Heroes are talking!". Maybe I just don't take Sonic as seriously, or maybe I'm just kind of biased towards the character being voiced (I'm currently voicing Sonic for a few fan games and flash cartoons.)

The biggest problem with the talking is that they'd never, ever shut up with the tutorial hints. Yes, game, by the time I'm in Final Fortress, I know how to use poles.

 

[Dark Schala]

If you aren't cynical after living through Heroes-Shadow-Sonic 2006, there might be something wrong with your brain.

Oh, believe me, they made me feel jaded, and then a game in very late 2009 that I ended up importing and paying express shipping for was released that made me feel incredibly jaded towards gaming and the industry as a whole and put me off of my favourite genre for a year. I still feel that way.

I hated Heroes for the following reasons:
-Levels tends to overstay their welcome.
-Controls are annoying sometimes. It's too easy to fall into a pit on a tiny platform because of the actions.
-Chaotix Missions were tedious.
-Everyone keeps yapping and yapping during the game, so annoying.
-Enemies has multiple HP, which drags out fights with them.

That's Heroes in a nutshell alright. To add to the list:
-The bosses are awful
-The team special attacks are anti-fun (yes, I'd love to watch this single ten-second cutscene over and over and over again)
-Character abilities are just weirdly implemented: Rocket Accel is clunky and useless, flight is counterintuitively based on how far you moved, not how long you'd been in the air, and aerial abilities for all three character types have a ton of startup and cooldown lag.
-Kart sequences
-Unnecessary level-up system that primarily serves to slow the game down at the start of every single level

-WE'RE SONIC HEROES. I could say the dialogue is dumb and cheesy, but the real problem is that everyone is rather irritatingly one-note. Somewhat similar to being there to spout out catchphrases. Also... Why did they turn Metal Sonic into a Sephiroth-looking fool? Kokonoe likes his design and general character but I don't.
-I dislike the character models a lot. Sega decided that they wanted shinies for characters so they made them shiny. It's quite off-putting in a similar way that Sonic Blast for the Game Gear was. Every single time I look at Heroes, I'm reminded of Sonic Blast.
-The game makes me feel extremely nauseous and I cannot bring myself to play it again at all. The camera is really bad.
-I felt like playing the game with the four different teams was rather tedious. Focusing on Team Heroes for a minute, it seemed like such a good idea at the time--being able to swap between Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles at once, but it was poorly executed. Ideas are one thing. Execution is another.
-Let's all check out young Ryan Davis's Review because it's soooo weird to see him all shy and quiet instead of loud and assholish.

By the way, why do people seriously believe that Sonic 06 was rushed by Microsoft? I think we had this discussion before but it's really weird how rarely anyone ever disproves that dumb rumor.

They are finding ways to justify their weird reasons for liking it.

I mean, like it or not, or we wouldn't come out and admit it, we get something about of Sonic 2006 in terms of schadenfreude, the 'it's so bad it's hilarious' angle, it's a glorious trainwreck and you can't look away, etc. We watch Sonic 2006 LPs, follow threads about it, post about playing it, etc. often for the laughs. We don't legitimately enjoy the game, but merely like making fun of it. A lot of Anth0ny's reasoning behind his enjoyment of Sonic 2006 is mostly due to this. It's truly a comedy game.

People out there legitimately enjoy the game and it makes me feel confused.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. A lot of people seem to have a problem with the entire voice cast and the fact that there's dialogue at all, and I wrongly assumed you were one of those guys.

A lot of SonicGAF tends to be more accepting of things in the Sonic series that the gaming side isn't. We get into scuffles sometimes, but it isn't anything that any of us get overly argumentative about.

Community threads in general are pretty chill. That's why no one uses the Final Fantasy Community Thread much; gaming side is a better place to argue about nonsense.

 

[Emitan]

Oh wow at young Ryan Davis. So different.

 

[Valjean Lafitte]

Oh, believe me, they made me feel jaded, and then a game in very late 2009 that I ended up importing and paying express shipping for was released that made me feel incredibly jaded towards gaming and the industry as a whole and put me off of my favourite genre for a year. I still feel that way.

What was the game, if you don't mind me asking?

 

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What was the game, if you don't mind me asking?

Xenoblade I'm guessing

 

[Shadow Hog]

I'm pretty sure it's FFXIII.

 

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I'm pretty sure it's FFXIII.

Oh, I thought she was jaded about the bullshit NoA had about Xenoblade.

Nevermind then.

EDIT: Just realized Xenoblade was a 2010 title not 2009.

 

[Azure Dream]

But above all else, the biggest problem with Heroes, I just remembered... the rings were all fat. They looked so ugly!

Just look at those huge, chunky things.

And wow at that Ryan Davis review. Trying so hard to be professional about it.

By the way, why do people seriously believe that Sonic 06 was rushed by Microsoft? I think we had this discussion before but it's really weird how rarely anyone ever disproves that dumb rumor.

It was a little weird how both Sonic 2006 and Dead or Alive Xtreme 2 were both pushed out the door so close to each other, neither one clearly ready for prime time, but it probably was just a coincidence.

 

[Dark Schala]

I'm pretty sure it's FFXIII.

Oh, I thought she was jaded about the bullshit NoA had about Xenoblade.

Nevermind then.

EDIT: Just realized Xenoblade was a 2010 title not 2009.

I was livid re: NoA & Xenoblade/The Last Story/Pandora's Tower/Zangeki no Reginleiv/Another Code: R a bunch of other Wii stuff, but that came after FF13. Before, the games I wanted from Japan were on the PSP and DS so importing wasn't a problem since the systems were region-free. There are some times when I say, "western audiences need to play this", though. I didn't put the Homebrew Channel on my Wii until Xenoblade was announced for Europe, and man I missed out on a lot of stuff I would've liked to play, bad or good (and oh my goodness at that Dragon Quest X rating... I wanna dive into the reviews).

To be fair to FF13 though, a second playthrough wasn't as bad because I'd tempered my expectations re: the game design, narrative, characters, etc. and overall I think the game is quite average. For some utterly irrational reason, I felt like other game designers may take cues from FF13 because it sold so much and would implement similar design characteristics in their games. I'm going to guess that it's because in previous generations, other games seemed to have taken design cues from FF because it's a trendsetter, but thinking about it now, I'm not sure if I can find an example outside of cinematic presentation, pacing, and narrative characteristics. If anything, RPGs take design cues from Dragon Quest, not necessarily FF. Regardless, I reacted to the game rather badly and was dismissive of it. I didn't like what it brought to the table, I didn't like the producer/director PR, I didn't like the story or characters, I didn't like the overall design, and I found it to be incredibly boring. It didn't have anything that I loved about the series, and it took itself far too seriously for my tastes. I didn't have much of an interest in the genre anymore, especially when I was thinking of the game as the future of the genre. It was a complete turn-off. Then you had the postmortem article about it talking about this focus group bullshit and westernization and catering to audiences for profits and learning about shareholders and shit, and I frankly had enough.

At least Arc Rise Fantasia and Graces f's JP release were decent enough to make me feel like the genre was going to be ok in the long run outside of the DLC costume nonsense.

...I can't believe I just said that about an imageepoch game and a Tales game. *facepalm*

But above all else, the biggest problem with Heroes, I just remembered... the rings were all fat. They looked so ugly!

Power rings are supposed to look like this.

And they're supposed to be lustrous.

 

[WillyFive]

In my opinion it did. Not just the voice, but his design did shift, the animations in Mario 64 and beyond started making him more bendy-stretchy, he became super happy all the friggin' time

I'm guessing this is a side effect of sprites, which had limited animation and range of movement. His design hasn't really changed much since Super Mario Bros. 2. Even on the TV show, despite the radically different design of Bowser (based on the villain of SMB2), Mario's only difference is that his shirt and pant colors were switched around.

Maybe seeing Mario animate so fluidly and liberally in Mario 64 felt like a really big change from the rigid sprites of earlier games.

 

[Shadow Hog]

But above all else, the biggest problem with Heroes, I just remembered... the rings were all fat. They looked so ugly!

Just look at those huge, chunky things.

They look like giant, shiny donuts, honestly.

Another thing I didn't like about Heroes - everything looked like it was made of the world's most malleable plastic. Fur does not shine!

 

[Nocturnowl]

If we're still complaining about Sonic Heroes I just remembered I have this whole post here.

Speaking about plot and stuff had me thinking earlier, the Sonic comics are supposed to be well written and enjoyable right? they seem to have the right balance of serious story without going overboard and still retaining a more if you will "classic" franchise feel.
So is there any reason they don't just enlist help from those guys for Sonic plots? assuming the fanbase is there i'm quite surprised Sonic games have never drawn more from their comic universe, surely it would be beneficial to the comics assuming the supposed game wasn't a complete mess?
There's probably something i'm missing here, or maybe Sonic Team don't dare have anyone try to compare to their thrilling serious plots.

Actually who handled the Sonic Chronicles plot for that matter?

 

[Dark Schala]

The lighting and textures seem ok in that shot.

I think.

Did Heroes come out for PC?

 

[Emitan]

The lighting and textures seem ok in that shot.

I think.

Did Heroes come out for PC?

Yes

 

[Shadow Hog]

Did Heroes come out for PC?

As I noted earlier, I actually bought it. Never play it, though.

Surprised nobody's gone about hacking Heroes to have the characters shut up when you play it.

 

[Emitan]

As I noted earlier, I actually bought it. Never play it, though.

Surprised nobody's gone about hacking Heroes to have the characters shut up when you play it.

They did in the 20 years of Sonic let's play.

 

[Anth0ny]

I think you guys just suck at Heroes.

It's pretty damn satisfying to level up your power guy and just throw your partners like fucking explosive filled dodge balls at the enemies.

For that reason alone (and VECTOR THE FUCKING CROCODILE), Heroes is superior to all of its mainline Sonic successors (except Classic Generations).

 

[Emitan]

I think you guys just suck at Heroes.

When Heroes is involved it's not the player that sucks...

 

[Sciz]

Speaking about plot and stuff had me thinking earlier, the Sonic comics are supposed to be well written and enjoyable right? They seem to have the right balance of serious story without going overboard and still retaining a more if you will "classic" franchise feel.

For the last few years, yes.

So is there any reason they don't just enlist help from those guys for Sonic plots? assuming the fanbase is there i'm quite surprised Sonic games have never drawn more from their comic universe, surely it would be beneficial to the comics assuming the supposed game wasn't a complete mess?

At a guess, Sega's Japanese office has zero familiarity with the comics outside of a vague awareness that they exist. It'd take someone from SoA pushing for Flynn as the writer. And that's not outside the realm of possibility, since they've been using Western writers for a while now anyway, but it'd take the right people being interested in making it happen.

As for actually sourcing comic material for the games, that's... probably a bad idea. The comics and games share a set of characters and an overall tone, but the similarities end there. Original material developed for the comics wouldn't translate back into a game environment nearly as well as game material can be absorbed into the comic.

Actually who handled the Sonic Chronicles plot for that matter?

Internal staff at Bioware, who actually did go back and watch the shows and read the comic for inspiration. The whole "technologically-advanced lost echidna tribe from another dimension" thing wasn't exactly an original idea.

 

[Dark Schala]

Whose bright idea was the "Knuckles = the Legendary Avatar" nonsense in the comics?

edit: nevermind, I think I know the answer... -_-

 

[Shadow Hog]

Whose bright idea was the "Knuckles = the Legendary Avatar" nonsense in the comics?

Ken Penders, I think. There was also the whole prophecy surrounding Tails, too, that... kinda... turned into Titan Tails. Egh.

As for actually sourcing comic material for the games, that's... probably a bad idea. The comics and games share a set of characters and an overall tone, but the similarities end there. Original material developed for the comics wouldn't translate back into a game environment nearly as well as game material can be absorbed into the comic.

Adapting from the comic verbatim, sure, but I think you could lift some elements without too much hassle.

Instead of "the planet Mobius", since the planet's already established as bizarro Earth (by name, even), make it a small island a la the Genesis titles; "Mobius Island" would suffice. Eggman sneaks in to the local monarchy's staff under the pseudonym "Ovi Kintobor", and works his way up to a high rank. He helps a local scientist develop "roboticization" technology, which turns body parts into functional robotic equivalents, and vice versa, without the need for painful surgery. He then stages a coup d'etat, abusing this new technology, in his latest effort to make Eggmanland a reality (let's just disregard that he made Eggmanland a reality back in Unleashed).

The coup d'etat is successful; the capital city of Mobius Island, Mobotropolis, is entirely roboticized and is quickly turning into the centerpiece for Eggmanland. A small faction managed to escape into a nearby forest, and is hiding underground. They, led by the deposed princess of the country, vow to take back their land from "Kintobor".

Word of this catches Sonic's ears. Initially, he brushes off the news of an insane dictator throwing a country into civil war (after all, in real-life civil wars it's hard to tell who's really the good guy). Then when he hears that the dictator went by "Kintobor" - perhaps prodded by Tails, who tends to be quicker on the uptake with these things and points out what "Kintobor" is backwards - he immediately realizes "oh, there's Eggman, what's he up to now" and thrusts himself into the conflict.

It could work, if the writing staff were up to it.

 

[Azure Dream]

I'm guessing this is a side effect of sprites, which had limited animation and range of movement. His design hasn't really changed much since Super Mario Bros. 2. Even on the TV show, despite the radically different design of Bowser (based on the villain of SMB2), Mario's only difference is that his shirt and pant colors were switched around.

Maybe seeing Mario animate so fluidly and liberally in Mario 64 felt like a really big change from the rigid sprites of earlier games.

They're similar, sure, but there were some major differences. And like I said, his character shifted in some ways, it wasn't just about appearance. (But man, there were some ugly renders in that period.)

Also, don't forget the Mario we have right now isn't the way he was being presented during the N64 era.

If we're still complaining about Sonic Heroes I just remembered I have this whole post here.

Funny thing is, you complain at the end about the emblems unlocking just a hard mode, but like I said above, I think I enjoyed the pacing of the Super Hard Mode stages better, for some reason. And it was Team Sonic only, which helped.

I had forgotten about Egg Emperor (despite Generations 3DS, where the fight is completely different). So I looked up a video of him... I had forgotten how OP Tails was sometimes. Eggman's blowing up and still going on about how he's not done fighting yet.

Speaking about plot and stuff had me thinking earlier, the Sonic comics are supposed to be well written and enjoyable right? they seem to have the right balance of serious story without going overboard and still retaining a more if you will "classic" franchise feel.
So is there any reason they don't just enlist help from those guys for Sonic plots? assuming the fanbase is there i'm quite surprised Sonic games have never drawn more from their comic universe, surely it would be beneficial to the comics assuming the supposed game wasn't a complete mess?
There's probably something i'm missing here, or maybe Sonic Team don't dare have anyone try to compare to their thrilling serious plots.

I think Sega almost forgot the comic existed for a while, it profited enough to keep existing, and that's about it.

It was Ian Flynn who yanked the tangled mess that was the comic's plot and made something decent out of it. For what it's worth, Sally and possibly some other characters are getting design tweaks coming up, and Ian said Sega's taken an increased interest in the comic lately... which could be good or bad.

 

[Sciz]

Eggman sneaks in to the local monarchy's staff under the pseudonym "Ovi Kintobor", and works his way up to a high rank. He helps a local scientist develop "roboticization" technology, which turns body parts into functional robotic equivalents, and vice versa, without the need for painful surgery. He then stages a coup d'etat, abusing this new technology, in his latest effort to make Eggmanland a reality (let's just disregard that he made Eggmanland a reality back in Unleashed).

This only works under the assumption that he doesn't already have an army of robots with which to conquer, and that he's got the patience to put up with an extended ruse. A bit of guile here and there, sure, but long-term subtlety is not the Eggman's forte, and I can't even begin to fathom him playing the treacherous underling role. Roboticization's a big hairy mess too, since you either can't have them as enemies (and in that case what was the point), or suddenly Sonic's going around destroying actual people.

 

[Azure Dream]

Roboticization's a big hairy mess too, since you either can't have them as enemies (and in that case what was the point), or suddenly Sonic's going around destroying actual people.

He'll spin on through the tears.

He'll spin on.

 

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I think you guys just suck at Heroes.

Really? Even with the Team Chaotix bullshit missions like the TORCHES IN HANG CASTLE?!

Also the game is awful regardless of the difficulty. I found the game to be really boring.

 

[Nocturnowl]

*answers to all my queries*

Ah, good work, that explains a number of things.

Funny thing is, you complain at the end about the emblems unlocking just a hard mode, but like I said above, I think I enjoyed the pacing of the Super Hard Mode stages better, for some reason. And it was Team Sonic only, which helped.

I had forgotten about Egg Emperor (despite Generations 3DS, where the fight is completely different). So I looked up a video of him... I had forgotten how OP Tails was sometimes. Eggman's blowing up and still going on about how he's not done fighting yet.

Admittedly i've never actually played the super hard mode, but after Dark Story I figured it was fair to assume it got even worse.

That A rank for old Eggers seemed to require some sort of stunlock, Eggman usually manages to flee the central platform a lot sooner, even so it's funny how even a playthrough of the top rank is still an unholy clusterfuck and includes the charge of certain impact.

Anth0ny is right on one thing, Vector being playable in heroes is a damn good thing, shame it's in those mostly awful mission stages.

 

[BlazeHedgehog]

I think you guys just suck at Heroes.

It's pretty damn satisfying to level up your power guy and just throw your partners like fucking explosive filled dodge balls at the enemies.

For that reason alone (and VECTOR THE FUCKING CROCODILE), Heroes is superior to all of its mainline Sonic successors (except Classic Generations).

None of that has to do with sluggish controls, slippery punch attacks, or repetitive level design (did you like that section of level? great! because it's going to be copy/pasted again in about 5 minutes).

 

[Shadow Hog]

Hrmm, first time anyone's bothered to criticize that proposal. Not that I mind, though, since that raises at least one point I hadn't really thought through too well: the roboticization part. I suppose they could be stronger enemies that you can't really kill, just stun, handwaved in plot as "Sonic knows these are brainwashed innocents and doesn't want to kill". Or we could just excise it entirely, probably not much of a loss.

I don't think Eggman's entirely above some mild subterfuge, though. I mean, he tricked Knuckles into thinking Sonic was a villain, like, three times (S3&K, Triple Trouble, SA1) - and while the latter two are largely because Knuckles can be a bit of an idiot, the first one actually worked, since Knuckles wouldn't have known about Sonic and Eggman beforehand to know any better. It can work here, too; Eggman, strapped for cash, gets a role in the monarchy as he raises funds for his robot army and researches where the Chaos Emeralds have wound up now (obviously tied to the island somehow). Since the Mobian government doesn't know any better, they let him get away with all of it willy-nilly, and it blindsides them when he inevitably makes his attack. Sonic doesn't know about Eggman's location, so he's not present to warn them ahead of time, and is stuck with helping clean up his mess after his plans are largely underway.

It could be worse, though. I briefly entertained bringing in more elements, like having Eggman have a brother Julian, who was already a member of the government, and who he uses as a public face for his attack while he does all the dirty work behind the scenes. Or introducing The Void as a place where he banishes public dissenters, but then he winds up releasing Ixis Naugus, and shit really breaks lose. I ditched all that because it was gettting too complicated to keep track of, or justify in any believable sense - it'd be much cleaner to ignore Julian and Naugus and just have Eggman be the Sol Badguy sole bad guy.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Whose bright idea was the "Knuckles = the Legendary Avatar" nonsense in the comics?

Sounds about right.

Spoiler

hurrr

 

[BlackJace]

I need to get back into the most recent issues. Collecting the old ones made me lose track.
Has the plot gotten nonsensical?

 

[Valjean Lafitte]

They look like giant, shiny donuts, honestly.

Another thing I didn't like about Heroes - everything looked like it was made of the world's most malleable plastic. Fur does not shine!

Sonic was always shiny. SEGA's tried to make Sonic more realistically furry in the past, and its never looked right.

None of that has to do with sluggish controls, slippery punch attacks, or repetitive level design (did you like that section of level? great! because it's going to be copy/pasted again in about 5 minutes).

I don't doubt what you're saying here is sort of true, but outside of Hang Castle I can't remember too many stages with repetitive layouts.

 

[qq more]

The difference is that Sonic wasn't that shiny in Sonic 3... that and the shinyness in SADX, Heroes and Shadow were just so ugly.

 

[Nocturnowl]

Bullet Station is the copy/paste king with the reuse of cannons and train destruction, Both of the airship stages have noticeable stage repetition as well leading up to the destruction of an air ship in both cases.

 

[TimmiT]

Egoraptor and Jontron said in the latest Game Grumps episode that they are going to play Sonic 2006: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDGrmEMpWTo

Spoiler

I actually knew this already for a couple of weeks already because Guess Who from Sonic Retro sent it to them.

 

[Shadow Hog]

Their funeral.

Could be worse, they could be Let's Playing I Wanna Be The Guy.